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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians

  1. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've never yet heard from an Albanian who didn't think Dienekes was biased, and the reason is that they hate his analyses of Balkan genetics, particularly Greek and Albanian genetics.

    Meanwhile, I, for have no stake in the matter, can't think of one major thing about which he was wrong, and I followed him from his first posts, and was part of his sample set.

    Eurogenes, on the other hand, has been wrong so many times that as I've often said I could fill the phone book of a small city with his incorrect predictions. The only times he's right is when his buddy tells him about the contents of upcoming papers. Anyone interested can find his exchanges with me on this site and see for yourselves how he can't even read a paper properly and relate what it shows or doesn't show; he just jumps to his pre-determined conclusions.

    As for "calculators", for people who haven't been around long enough, Dienekes "invented" them. Eurogenes is like a line engineer using someone else's algorithms and programs without, of course, acknowledging his debt.

    That's not to mention that Eurogenes is an out and out racist propagandist convicted out of his own mouth and someone captured on discussions with his Russian buddy trying to figure out how to manipulate the sample selection to get the desired result. For crying out loud, on PCAs he used to routinely include close relatives of "his" samples.

    OK, I remember something he was wrong about: some y dna predictions, like for Oetzi.
    Dienekes claimed that E-V13 in Mediterranean is essentially of Greek origin. And that E-V13 and J2 (not just J2a) in Albanians are also of Ancient Greek origin. That Turks are to a large part Ancient Greeks. That is very ironic coming from a Pontic Greek who barely has Ancient Greek ancestry himself. He should know better as a Pontic Greek. This for starters completely knocks him out for me. It's done for me.

    Davidski does not have this type of "bias".

    Can name something similar about Davidski?

    I am not really a follower of pre-history genetics or where Davidski disagreed but I do know that Davidski has a very long lists what Dienekes has been wrong about.

    Many eminent writers (including highly respected not just Davidski) in genetics don't take him seriously and he has a very bad reputation in internet. Davidski has only a bad reputation here.


    Do you have any proof about Davidski and his Russian buddy? Some may like Dienekes because he stroke their ego.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Only recent Slavic or Germanic admixture can move them to that position. If they have recent Croatian or Slovenian admixture they can't be more considered fully Northern Italian.

    Completely different thing is Germanic or Slavic medieval admixture.
    Northern Italians have been living cheek by jowl with Croatians since the days of the Venetian Republic. How the heck do you know when the admixture happened?

    My first cousin in law has a Slavic last name and his family has been in the Veneto since the Middle Ages. They were Venetian traders with long standing contacts with Dalmatia and Byzantium. Their "family" first names, one of which he gave to his unfortunate son, include names like Archimedi.

    The point is that when you do a random "pick", as you HAVE to do for a scientific analysis, you're going to pick up people who might be a minority. When you have a LOT of samples from a certain area you can perhaps weed out the "outliers".

    It is NOT something which one can do based on one's own results or a "hunch" as to what the people should look like, or one's preference.

    For example, what is one to make of the comment above that posters at anthrogenica think the Peloponnesian samples are too "southern". Leaving aside the fact that so many of the amateur enthusiasts in this discipline are Nordicists even if they come from the southernmost parts of Europe, and are keen to make their "people" more "Northern", what is to be made of an observation like that? What SCIENTIFIC analysis is it based on?

    Only when there are a LOT of randomly chosen samples from all parts of a designated area am I going to be persuaded by comments like that.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  3. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Dienekes claimed that E-V13 in Mediterranean is essentially of Greek origin. And that E-V13 and J2 (not just J2a) in Albanians are also of Ancient Greek origin. That Turks are to a large part Ancient Greeks. That is very ironic coming from a Pontic Greek who barely has Ancient Greek ancestry himself. He should know better as a Pontic Greek. This for starters completely knocks him out for me. It's done for me.

    Davidski does not have this type of "bias".

    Can name something similar about Davidski?

    I am not really a follower of pre-history genetics or where Davidski disagreed but I do know that Davidski has a very long lists what Dienekes has been wrong about.

    Many eminent writers (including highly respected not just Davidski) in genetics don't take him seriously and he has a very bad reputation in internet. Davidski has only a bad reputation here.


    Do you have any proof about Davidski and his Russian buddy? Some may like Dienekes because he stroke their ego.
    Who gives a damn what people ignorant "of pre-history genetics" think of the issue? I certainly don't.

    There ARE no eminent academicians, who are the only writers with whom you should be concerned, who have expressed an opinion on the matter.

    I have proof Davidski is a racist, I have proof he deliberately discussed changing samples to get certain results, and I have listed elsewhere a dozen or more MAJOR mistakes he has made, the one closest to the only genetics issues that matter to you that Mycenaeans would turn out to be blonde, blue eyed people almost identical to Corded Ware. See, they teleported over all the area in between.

    Go find them.

    Also, do not expect any responses from me in the future; you are on permanent ignore.

  4. #479
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    If Davidski said Mycenaeans will turn out to be blonde and almost identical to Corded Ware, than I guess he did not say it in his blog or maybe he deleted it. Because it's not there.
    Last edited by ihype02; 08-12-21 at 20:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Northern Italians have been living cheek by jowl with Croatians since the days of the Venetian Republic. How the heck do you know when the admixture happened?

    My first cousin in law has a Slavic last name and his family has been in the Veneto since the Middle Ages. They were Venetian traders with long standing contacts with Dalmatia and Byzantium. Their "family" first names, one of which he gave to his unfortunate son, include names like Archimedi.

    They are very far from average Venetians, and they look very much like the Germanic or Slavic-speaking linguistic minorities of the Alps (Timau, Sappada, Cimbrians...).

    If it's not recent admxiture, then they are most likely samples from the Germanic (or Slavic language) minorities of the northeastern Alps but labelled as generic northeastern Italians.




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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Dienekes claimed that E-V13 in Mediterranean is essentially of Greek origin. And that E-V13 and J2 (not just J2a) in Albanians are also of Ancient Greek origin. That Turks are to a large part Ancient Greeks. That is very ironic coming from a Pontic Greek who barely has Ancient Greek ancestry himself. He should know better as a Pontic Greek. This for starters completely knocks him out for me. It's done for me.

    Sorry to interrupt your discussion, I will write this and go.

    1) Dienekes is Lazaridis.

    2) Pontic Greeks can be modelled as having quantifiable Mycenean ancestry as you can see in the following qpAdm run, probably not as much as Peloponnesian Greeks or others, but still significantly present:

    qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
    ### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
    ##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
    fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
    popleft: left.txt
    popright: right.txt
    details: YES
    ## qpAdm version: 1520
    seed: 1748471664
    *** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
    inbreed set NO

    left pops:
    ponticgreek
    Greece_BA_Mycenaean
    Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya

    right pops:
    Mbuti.DG
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
    China_Tianyuan
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
    Iran_GanjDareh_N
    Georgia_Kotias.SG
    Turkey_N_published
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
    Papuan.DG
    Israel_Natufian_published
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
    ONG.SG

    codimension 1
    f4info:
    f4rank: 1 dof: 11 chisq: 8.256 tail: 0.690196169 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -8.256 taildiff: 1
    B:
    scale 1.000
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.186
    China_Tianyuan 0.121
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.274
    Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.384
    Georgia_Kotias.SG 1.625
    Turkey_N_published -1.707
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.057
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.586
    Papuan.DG -0.202
    Israel_Natufian_published -1.309
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.309
    ONG.SG -0.187
    A:
    scale 1038.803
    Greece_BA_Mycenaean -1.140
    Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.837


    full rank
    f4info:
    f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 8.256 taildiff: 0.690196169
    B:
    scale 699.482 1187.508
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.573 0.520
    China_Tianyuan 0.669 1.352
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.352 -0.093
    Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.810 1.670
    Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.170 1.708
    Turkey_N_published 1.339 -1.530
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.569 1.102
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.703 0.716
    Papuan.DG 0.433 0.210
    Israel_Natufian_published 1.919 0.259
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.374 -0.080
    ONG.SG 0.216 -0.038
    A:
    scale 1.414 1.414
    Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
    Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.000 1.414


    best coefficients: 0.423 0.577
    totmean: 0.423 0.577
    boot mean: 0.423 0.577
    std. errors: 0.074 0.074

    error covariance (* 1,000,000)
    5485 -5485
    -5485 5485


    summ: ponticgreek 2 0.690196 0.423 0.577 5485 -5485 5485

    fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
    00 0 11 8.256 0.690196 0.423 0.577
    01 1 12 64.491 3.38531e-09 1.000 0.000
    10 1 12 41.455 4.11161e-05 0.000 1.000
    best pat: 00 0.690196 - -
    best pat: 10 4.11161e-05 chi(nested): 33.199 p-value for nested model: 8.31902e-09

    coeffs: 0.423 0.577

    ## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
    ## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000819 1.293291
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000438 0.736654
    dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000599 Z: 1.046005

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.000957 1.295930
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya China_Tianyuan 0.001138 1.644382
    dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.001061 Z: 1.577864

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000504 0.945933
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000078 -0.149355
    dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000168 Z: 0.339867

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.001158 -2.212288
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.001406 2.733275
    dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.000321 Z: 0.654114

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001673 -2.444339
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.001438 2.156090
    dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: 0.000121 Z: 0.192713

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.001915 3.752897
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Turkey_N_published -0.001289 -2.630766
    dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: 0.000067 Z: 0.144465

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000814 1.065108
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000928 1.258500
    dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000879 Z: 1.243516

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002434 -3.152052
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000603 0.776853
    dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.000683 Z: -0.932843

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000619 1.161909
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Papuan.DG 0.000177 0.333508
    dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000364 Z: 0.728246

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.002744 2.426661
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Israel_Natufian_published 0.000218 0.210682
    dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.001288 Z: 1.265452

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000534 0.869551
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000067 -0.120423
    dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000187 Z: 0.340491

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG 0.000308 0.572255
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya ONG.SG -0.000032 -0.061478
    dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000112 Z: 0.223804

    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.046
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 1.578
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.340
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.654
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.193
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published 0.144
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.244
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.933
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 0.728
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 1.265
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.340
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 0.224
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan 0.658
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.594
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.476
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.655
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published -0.928
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.364
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.625
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.384
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.655
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.651
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.865
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -1.140
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.113
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.194
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published -1.561
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.227
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.057
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG -1.088
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published 0.209
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.351
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -1.535
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.235
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.064
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published -0.165
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.894
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.012
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG 0.297
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.011
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.028
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -0.088
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.338
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published -0.536
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.823
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.433
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG 0.083
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.960
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.241
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.398
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published -0.088
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.921
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.052
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 0.355
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.058
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.095
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG -0.014
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.193
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.062
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG 0.587
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 1.238
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.223
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG 0.089
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.776
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.762
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.360
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.983
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -1.117
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG 1.431
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.722
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.149
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG 1.123
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.886
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.353
    gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.533
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.080
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -1.155
    gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -0.157

    ##end of qpAdm: 1.892 seconds cpu 0.725 Mbytes in use

    42.3% Mycenean (+- 7.4%) and 57.7% Maikop_Novosvobodnaya (+- 7.4%).

  7. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekas View Post
    Sorry to interrupt your discussion, I will write this and go.

    1) Dienekes is Lazaridis.

    2) Pontic Greeks can be modelled as having quantifiable Mycenean ancestry as you can see in the following qpAdm run, probably not as much as Peloponnesian Greeks or others, but still significantly present:




    42.3% Mycenean (+- 7.4%) and 57.7% Maikop_Novosvobodnaya (+- 7.4%).
    Dienekes is not Lazaridis. And you are using a 3000 BC old sample from Russia to model the native ancestry of Pontic Greeks.
    You can model Modern Lazes and Armenians as 35% Greek with that.
    Pontic Greeks can be modelled as 85% modern Laz and 15% Ionic-like.

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    Since Pax Augusta mentioned it is true that David only uses academic samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Dienekes is not Lazaridis. (WTH?) And you are using a 3000 BC old sample from Russia to model the native ancestry of Pontic Greeks.
    You can model Modern Lazes and Armenians as 35% Greek with that.
    Pontic Greeks can be modelled as 85% modern Laz and 15% Ionic-like.

    No, sorry, you can see Armenians fail the exact same run (see prob. tail), as qpAdm is very sensitive and is not like your blogger smartPCA "eurogenes calculator" where you mish-mash whatever you want and you get a little bit of everything as a result.

    Laz speakers also have ancestry from Maikop, and have mixed with Greeks, as it can be seen with loans from the Greek language in their own language's grammatical structure, but your numbers have no basis on anything, you just pull them out from thin air.

    qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
    ### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
    ##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
    fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
    popleft: left.txt
    popright: right.txt
    details: YES
    ## qpAdm version: 1520
    seed: 1852968968
    *** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
    inbreed set NO

    left pops:
    Armenian.DG
    Greece_BA_Mycenaean
    Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya

    right pops:
    Mbuti.DG
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
    China_Tianyuan
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
    Iran_GanjDareh_N
    Georgia_Kotias.SG
    Turkey_N_published
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
    Papuan.DG
    Israel_Natufian_published
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
    ONG.SG

    codimension 1
    f4info:
    f4rank: 1 dof: 11 chisq: 71.233 tail: 7.11630577e-11 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -71.233 taildiff: 1
    B:
    scale 1.000
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.155
    China_Tianyuan 0.136
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.333
    Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.279
    Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.621
    Turkey_N_published 1.689
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.065
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.480
    Papuan.DG 0.186
    Israel_Natufian_published 1.541
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.299
    ONG.SG 0.187
    A:
    scale 928.687
    Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.296
    Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.567


    full rank
    f4info:
    f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 71.233 taildiff: 7.11630577e-11
    B:
    scale 599.618 885.424
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.134 -0.208
    China_Tianyuan 0.521 0.690
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.260 -0.087
    Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.301 1.826
    Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.821 1.557
    Turkey_N_published 2.077 0.238
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.411 0.649
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.558 1.932
    Papuan.DG 0.145 -0.306
    Israel_Natufian_published 2.420 1.102
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.451 0.008
    ONG.SG -0.020 -0.441
    A:
    scale 1.414 1.414
    Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
    Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.000 1.414


    best coefficients: 0.304 0.696
    totmean: 0.304 0.696
    boot mean: 0.303 0.697
    std. errors: 0.062 0.062

    error covariance (* 1,000,000)
    3887 -3887
    -3887 3887


    summ: Armenian.DG 2 0.000000 0.303 0.697 3887 -3887 3887

    fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
    00 0 11 71.233 7.11631e-11 0.304 0.696
    01 1 12 220.782 0 1.000 0.000
    10 1 12 105.314 5.03423e-17 0.000 1.000
    best pat: 00 7.11631e-11 - -
    best pat: 10 5.03423e-17 chi(nested): 34.080 p-value for nested model: 5.28806e-09

    coeffs: 0.304 0.696

    ## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
    ## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000224 0.506334
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000235 -0.573040
    dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: -0.000095 Z: -0.258881

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.000869 1.809266
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya China_Tianyuan 0.000780 1.891160
    dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.000807 Z: 2.153321

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000434 1.266355
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000098 -0.313555
    dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000064 Z: 0.233394

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000502 -1.411854
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.002063 6.318214
    dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.001282 Z: 4.338469

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001369 -2.928761
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.001758 3.867247
    dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: 0.000807 Z: 2.026901

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.003464 9.738560
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Turkey_N_published 0.000268 0.837026
    dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: 0.001241 Z: 4.319962

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000686 1.346397
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000733 1.551759
    dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000719 Z: 1.692131

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000931 -1.844101
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.002182 4.522860
    dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: 0.001235 Z: 2.908198

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000241 0.632554
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Papuan.DG -0.000346 -1.045093
    dscore: Papuan.DG f4: -0.000167 Z: -0.551150

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.004036 6.029144
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Israel_Natufian_published 0.001244 2.284058
    dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.002094 Z: 4.389409

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000752 1.862131
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000010 0.026313
    dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000235 Z: 0.716612

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG -0.000034 -0.092594
    details: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya ONG.SG -0.000498 -1.455873
    dscore: ONG.SG f4: -0.000357 Z: -1.173774

    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.259
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 2.153
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.233
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 4.338
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG 2.027
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published 4.320
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.692
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.908
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG -0.551
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 4.389
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.717
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG -1.174
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan 2.150
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.360
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 3.882
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG 2.062
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published 3.854
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.847
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.855
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.204
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 4.237
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.879
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.727
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -1.658
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.250
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published 1.157
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.189
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.871
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG -2.686
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published 2.431
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.524
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -3.078
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 3.136
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG 1.600
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published 3.197
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.328
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.356
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -0.583
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 3.800
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.423
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -1.062
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.310
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published -0.152
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.461
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.120
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG -4.702
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 1.691
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -3.310
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -5.453
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published 1.134
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.183
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.970
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG -2.337
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 2.374
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.383
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG -2.897
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.290
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.014
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -4.577
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 1.960
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -3.078
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -5.154
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.063
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -2.160
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published 2.622
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.123
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -2.694
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -3.331
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.561
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -2.319
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG -3.687
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 4.752
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.320
    gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.633
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -3.753
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -5.202
    gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -1.947

    ##end of qpAdm: 1.786 seconds cpu 0.782 Mbytes in use

  10. #485
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    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Bekas View Post
    No, sorry, you can see Armenians fail the exact same run (see prob. tail), as qpAdm is very sensitive and is not like your blogger smartPCA "eurogenes calculator" where you mish-mash whatever you want and you get a little bit of everything as a result.

    Laz speakers also have ancestry from Maikop, and have mixed with Greeks, as it can be seen with loans from the Greek language in their own language's grammatical structure, but your numbers have no basis on anything, you just pull them out from thin air.
    You are using a sample that pre-dates the Pyramid of Giza by 500 to 700 yeas and it's even from a different location. The Mycenaean genetic profile did not even exist in 3000BC. Pontic Greeks are very close to Laz with a Western pull.

    Pontic Greeks can be modeled as 85% Modern Laz and 15% Ancient Greek.
    Wait until we find out how natives of Pontus were like in the Iron Age.
    Target: Greek_Trabzon
    Distance: 2.3295% / 0.02329537
    62.8 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
    37.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2



    Target: Georgian_Laz
    Distance: 2.0513% / 0.02051298
    74.8 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
    25.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2

  11. #486
    Regular Member
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    Country: Greece



    1 members found this post helpful.
    I post qpAdm pass run, you post your ringleader's "coordinates" and closed project "calculator" results. IDC if you believe me or not, not my problem.

    Maikop is perfectly fine to model native, non Steppe, Caucasus ancestry for that period and within range for Minoan and Mycenean sample age, same for Kura-Araxes that show similar ranges but I don't post this because you will pull some excuse for that sampling also. The bottom line is Pontic Greeks pass qpAdm runs with Mycenean reference samples, they also speak a very archaic version of Ionic Greek, and that seems to annoy Albanians and other Balkan people for some reason, but, like I said, not my problem.

    You posted un-based claims, I corrected it for the other people to see.

  12. #487
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    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    You are using a sample that pre-dates the Pyramid of Giza by 500 to 700 yeas and it's even from a different location. The Mycenaean genetic profile did not even exist in 3000BC. Pontic Greeks are very close to Laz with a Western pull.

    Pontic Greeks can be modeled as 85% Modern Laz and 15% Ancient Greek.
    Wait until we find out how natives of Pontus were like in the Iron Age.
    Can you give a good reason on why one should compare Pontic Greeks with Laz?like from a linguistic or historical point of view?other than just repeating sikeliot or turkish anthroboarder type stuff? (I understood btw that we two had a discussion over the same subject them in another forum ) ,can you give an era by era synopsis of how these populations were created ..for sure?

    Also how about suggesting the Bekas guy some better models for him to try If his doesn't cut it?

    You've said in our previous discussion that you have no agenda but something seems to bother you about certain anthrofora Jewish members(as I remembered from the discussion in the other forum) Dienekes and their theories..

  13. #488
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    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Bekas View Post
    I post qpAdm pass run, you post your ringleader's "coordinates" and closed project "calculator" results. IDC if you believe me or not, not my problem.

    Maikop is perfectly fine to model native, non Steppe, Caucasus ancestry for that period and within range for Minoan and Mycenean sample age, same for Kura-Araxes that show similar ranges but I don't post this because you will pull some excuse for that sampling also. The bottom line is Pontic Greeks pass qpAdm runs with Mycenean reference samples, they also speak a very archaic version of Ionic Greek, and that seems to annoy Albanians and other Balkan people for some reason, but, like I said, not my problem.

    You posted un-based claims, I corrected it for the other people to see.
    The point is that the source that you are using is highly unlikely to be fully representative of natives in Pontus because of the date 3000BC-3200BC and the location. The inhabitants of Serbia were French-like during those times if I remember well.

    I think you are tricking yourself. The sample you used is not 100% impossible to be exactly the same as the natives of Pontus but it's highly unlikely.
    Wait until something by 800BC is released to see how they plot.

    Also Romans settled colonists in Pontus too and Central Anatolians were more Western Shifted, Cypriot-like. Not the entire Western shift was caused by Ionians, but most of it yes.

    I have tested G25 calculator with several different academic paper, including the Imperial Rome 2019 study. The percentages were the same with the studies, so I am satisfied with it.

  14. #489
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    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by DorianTA View Post
    Can you give a good reason on why one should compare Pontic Greeks with Laz?like from a linguistic or historical point of view?other than just repeating sikeliot or turkish anthroboarder type stuff? (I understood btw that we two had a discussion over the same subject them in another forum ) ,can you give an era by era synopsis of how these populations were created ..for sure?Also how about suggesting the Bekas guy some better models for him to try If his doesn't cut it?You've said in our previous discussion that you have no agenda but something seems to bother you about certain anthrofora Jewish members(as I remembered from the discussion in the other forum) Dienekes and their theories..
    I only mentioned Dienekes because of comparison with Davidski I have only searched "Albanians" once in his blog and found out about this. He is inactive I could care less about him. He gets tolerated for his biases but Davidski gets not. I have no problems with Jewish people.

    I am sure most of what I have said will be proven. Wanna bet on that?

  15. #490
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    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post

    I am sure most of what I have said will be proven. Wanna bet on that?
    If your bet is that Pontic Greeks are a straight 85% post-Roman(?) era "Lazes" + 15% Mycenaean-like Pontic Ionian "survivors" ,I'm in for a bet since I believe the picture must be more complicated.

    I have no opinion on the haplogroups origins ,I just mentioned Dienekes just to show that you have your own biases.. I wouldn't be surprised if he is right to some unknown extent though since there are gaps about Albanian ethnogenesis.

  16. #491
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    Ah, ok, thanks for clarifying, eurogenes says Pontics are Laz and Armenians, so it must be true,

    you should inform the Cambridge seat of Linguistics, also, so they don't waste their time using the Pontic dialects spoken today in Greece and Turkey to reconstruct Homeric Greek and their Hellenistic Alexandrian evolutions. Just tell them eurogenes told you Pontics are hodge-podge of Lazic tribesmen, G25 is definitely the proof.




    Also, here's a qpAdm pass run that uses modern Georgian for a proxy of the native Caucasus reference. You can see the spread is similar (36.4% Mycenean and the rest Georgian) with a slightly higher standard error (+-1% to the Maikop run).

    qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
    ### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
    ##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
    fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
    popleft: left.txt
    popright: right.txt
    details: YES
    ## qpAdm version: 1520
    seed: 1842531111
    *** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
    inbreed set NO

    left pops:
    ponticgreek
    Greece_BA_Mycenaean
    Georgian.DG

    right pops:
    Mbuti.DG
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
    China_Tianyuan
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
    Iran_GanjDareh_N
    Georgia_Kotias.SG
    Turkey_N_published
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
    Papuan.DG
    Israel_Natufian_published
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
    ONG.SG
    Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya
    Greece_Minoan_Lassithi
    Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

    codimension 1
    f4info:
    f4rank: 1 dof: 14 chisq: 16.368 tail: 0.29142047 dofdiff: 16 chisqdiff: -16.368 taildiff: 1
    B:
    scale 1.000
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.205
    China_Tianyuan 0.393
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.220
    Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.404
    Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.224
    Turkey_N_published 1.854
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.270
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.109
    Papuan.DG 0.167
    Israel_Natufian_published 2.402
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.180
    ONG.SG 0.046
    Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.035
    Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.478
    Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.583
    A:
    scale 1022.823
    Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.227
    Georgian.DG -0.703


    full rank
    f4info:
    f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 14 chisqdiff: 16.368 taildiff: 0.29142047
    B:
    scale 690.828 1253.964
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.669 0.771
    China_Tianyuan 0.711 0.277
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.387 0.294
    Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.721 -0.510
    Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.122 0.938
    Turkey_N_published 1.255 -2.192
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.636 0.485
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.701 -0.511
    Papuan.DG 0.552 0.558
    Israel_Natufian_published 1.949 -2.126
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.468 0.369
    ONG.SG 0.272 0.358
    Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.140 -0.385
    Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.147 -1.451
    Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.231 0.671
    A:
    scale 1.414 1.414
    Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
    Georgian.DG 0.000 1.414


    best coefficients: 0.364 0.636
    totmean: 0.364 0.636
    boot mean: 0.364 0.636
    std. errors: 0.084 0.084

    error covariance (* 1,000,000)
    7128 -7128
    -7128 7128


    summ: ponticgreek 2 0.291420 0.364 0.636 7128 -7128 7128

    fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
    00 0 14 16.368 0.29142 0.364 0.636
    01 1 15 68.453 8.41149e-09 1.000 0.000
    10 1 15 36.297 0.00160138 0.000 1.000
    best pat: 00 0.29142 - -
    best pat: 10 0.00160138 chi(nested): 19.929 p-value for nested model: 8.03689e-06

    coeffs: 0.364 0.636

    ## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
    ## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000968 1.500599
    details: Georgian.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000615 1.037938
    dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000744 Z: 1.291133

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.001029 1.388763
    details: Georgian.DG China_Tianyuan 0.000221 0.323451
    dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.000515 Z: 0.775092

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000560 1.028332
    details: Georgian.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000234 0.458293
    dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000353 Z: 0.713968

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.001044 -1.959258
    details: Georgian.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000407 -0.803248
    dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: -0.000639 Z: -1.306387

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001624 -2.345083
    details: Georgian.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.000748 1.098959
    dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000115 Z: -0.178684

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.001816 3.505022
    details: Georgian.DG Turkey_N_published -0.001748 -3.634914
    dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: -0.000451 Z: -0.973117

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000921 1.190378
    details: Georgian.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000387 0.528206
    dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000581 Z: 0.823044

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002463 -3.148780
    details: Georgian.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000408 -0.547423
    dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.001156 Z: -1.610472

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000799 1.483914
    details: Georgian.DG Papuan.DG 0.000445 0.892347
    dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000574 Z: 1.195057

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.002822 2.430457
    details: Georgian.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.001695 -1.615367
    dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: -0.000051 Z: -0.048641

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000677 1.083105
    details: Georgian.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000294 0.514300
    dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000434 Z: 0.780294

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG 0.000394 0.718878
    details: Georgian.DG ONG.SG 0.000285 0.537356
    dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000325 Z: 0.641246

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.000202 -0.303448
    details: Georgian.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.000307 -0.505379
    dscore: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya f4: -0.000269 Z: -0.449641

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.001660 2.894377
    details: Georgian.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.001157 -2.137240
    dscore: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi f4: -0.000132 Z: -0.251263

    details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.001781 1.718469
    details: Georgian.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.000535 0.547037
    dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: 0.000989 Z: 1.036162

    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.291
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 0.775
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.714
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.306
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.179
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published -0.973
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.823
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.610
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 1.195
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.049
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.780
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 0.641
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.450
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.251
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.036
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -0.320
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.539
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -2.330
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.148
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published -2.024
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.206
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.432
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.273
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.733
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.471
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.715
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.472
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.358
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.245
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.218
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.761
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.808
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published -1.523
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.084
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.973
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 0.093
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published -0.515
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.125
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -0.306
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.047
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.953
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.458
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.566
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.643
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published -1.323
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.295
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.798
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG 0.346
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.360
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.122
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -0.044
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.855
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.730
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.637
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.876
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published 0.398
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.809
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.752
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG 2.406
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.572
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.892
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG 1.824
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.635
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.982
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.704
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published -0.541
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.851
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.351
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 1.020
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.057
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.793
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG 0.650
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.216
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.026
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.124
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.524
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.011
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG 1.982
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 0.397
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.572
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG 1.497
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 0.330
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.734
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.608
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.939
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.011
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.550
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.207
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.373
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.104
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.016
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.402
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG 2.398
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.946
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 2.064
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG 2.103
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya 1.120
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.399
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.977
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.587
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.270
    gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.529
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.325
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.294
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.420
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.461
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG 0.360
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.199
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.077
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.787
    gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -0.221
    gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -1.041
    gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.985
    gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.552
    gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya -0.940
    gendstat: ONG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.827
    gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.669
    gendstat: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.236
    gendstat: Russia_Caucasus_Maikop_Novosvobodnaya Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.293
    gendstat: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.232

    ##end of qpAdm: 2.474 seconds cpu 0.877 Mbytes in use



    So, I am sorry it hurts your feelings but Pontic Greeks have quantifiable ancestry related to the Mycenean samples.

  17. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by DorianTA View Post
    If your bet is that Pontic Greeks are a straight 85% post-Roman(?) era "Lazes" + 15% Mycenaean-like Pontic Ionian "survivors" ,I'm in for a bet since I believe the picture must be more complicated.

    I have no opinion on the haplogroups origins ,I just mentioned Dienekes just to show that you have your own biases.. I wouldn't be surprised if he is right to some unknown extent though since there are gaps about Albanian ethnogenesis.
    No where did I mention that Pontic Greeks are straight up 15% Ionian and 85% Laz. But do I think it is closer to 15% than to 43%? Yes.
    I was simply correcting the method that your buddy used. I have never seen anyone here or on Anthrogenica use qpAdm.
    He must've tried several methods and picked which ever he liked best.

  18. #493
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Is there going to be a comprehensive study on Sicily/Calabria any time soon? Not sure how anyone can draw conclusions on Southern Italian genetics without these two regions.

  19. #494
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    5 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carnimirie View Post
    Is there going to be a comprehensive study on Sicily/Calabria any time soon? Not sure how anyone can draw conclusions on Southern Italian genetics without these two regions.
    At least 3-4 studies on ancient samples from Italy are about to be published. At least two include ancient samples from southern Italy, and one definitely includes samples from Sicily. Instead, unfortunately, to my knowledge there are no rumors yet about studies with ancient samples from Calabria.


    Unraveling the genetic history of Italians: a genome-wide study of Iron Age Italic populations

    Zaro Valentina (1), Vergata Chiara (1), Cannariato Costanza (1), Modi Alessandra (1), Vai Stefania (1), Pilli Elena (1), Diroma Maria Angela (1), Caramelli David (1), Lari Martina (1)
    1 - Department of Biology, University of Florence, Florence, Italy (Italy)

    The high genetic variability of present-day Italians reflects a complex scenario of past population dynamics dating back not only to Late Paleolithic and Neolithic but also Metal Ages. Although many archaeogenetic studies have been recently carried out to investigate the peopling of Europe, only few genomic data have been reported from Italic populations so far, especially the ones belonging to the last phase of Metal Ages: the Iron Age. To outline a picture of Iron Age genetic variability within the Italian context and infer potential gene flow patterns, we collected 78 human remains from 8 Iron Age necropolises covering 5 different regions of Italy (Emilia-Romagna, Umbria, Marche, Latium and Sicily). Double stranded half-UDG libraries were produced and then shotgun sequenced on an Illumina NovaSeq6000 platform to allow for an initial screening of the samples. Raw reads were processed using the EAGER pipeline and then assessment of DNA authenticity and sex determination were performed. Preliminary population genetics tests were run on genotyped data by building a west Eurasian PCA including all the samples with at least 10.000 SNPs covered on the Affymetrix Human Origins panel. The first results highlight an affinity of the majority of the samples with previously reported Iron Age individuals from Italy, while all samples from Sicily overlap with the genetic variability observed in this area during the Bronze Age. Our aim is to deeper investigate these samples which can significantly contribute to better understand past peopling dynamics of the Italian peninsula and reconstruct modern Italians' genetic history.










  20. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    No where did I mention that Pontic Greeks are straight up 15% Ionian and 85% Laz. But do I think it is closer to 15% than to 43%? Yes.
    I was simply correcting the method that your buddy used. I have never seen anyone here or on Anthrogenica use qpAdm.
    He must've tried several methods and picked which ever he liked best.
    You said "Pontic Greeks can be modeled as 85% Modern Laz and 15% Ancient Greek." If that's not what you say ,I don't get why Laz should be used as a proxy? I believe even Georgian pops might not be good proxy because of possible more eastern admixture ,be it through the Greek Caucasus colonies or Roman ones ,hence the need for ancient models for Pontians.

    Can you provide a good reason why the less Greek the model is the more realistic it must be?If not ,I take it as you following the herd. I'm willing to bet that not only the Ionic part is close to half but the continuity of Trapezudians with their Sinopian ancestors (the colonizers of Trapezuda) ,and Milesians(colonizers of Sinope) is even greater due to gradual accumulation of local admixtures and that the similarity with Laz is coincidental due to the latter having Greek or Roman admixture and due to them starting as Colchians who assimilated more westward black sea tribes that the Greek population also could have assimilated (see Sanni)..but that's just me ,remains to be seen (If it ever does and we're not wasting our times).

  21. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by DorianTA View Post
    You said "Pontic Greeks can be modeled as 85% Modern Laz and 15% Ancient Greek." If that's not what you say ,I don't get why Laz should be used as a proxy? I believe even Georgian pops might not be good proxy because of possible more eastern admixture ,be it through the Greek Caucasus colonies or Roman ones ,hence the need for ancient models for Pontians.

    Can you provide a good reason why the less Greek the model is the more realistic it must be?If not ,I take it as you following the herd. I'm willing to bet that not only the Ionic part is close to half but the continuity of Trapezudians with their Sinopian ancestors (the colonizers of Trapezuda) ,and Milesians(colonizers of Sinope) is even greater due to gradual accumulation of local admixtures and that the similarity with Laz is coincidental due to the latter having Greek or Roman admixture and due to them starting as Colchians who assimilated more westward black sea tribes that the Greek population also could have assimilated (see Sanni)..but that's just me ,remains to be seen (If it ever does and we're not wasting our times).
    Treizbond was a Laz kingdom. The natives were Laz.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Trebizond

    Keep in mind that in general Anatolia has become more Eastern shifted not just because of Turkic impact that is including Christians. So maybe the natives of Pontus could've been more western shifted than modern Pontic Greeks that is not to say that modern Pontians have absolutely no Ancient Greek ancestry (I am sure they do). But PCA can get interpreted in many different ways, what pulls them west and what pulls them east.

    Southern Italians are closer to Ancient Greeks than Cretans but that does not mean they have more Ancient Greek ancestry than Cretans.

  22. #497
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Thanks for the info Pax. Surprised Calabria is overlooked, I feel the Oenotrians and/or the populous Greek colonies would solve the puzzle

  23. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Treizbond was a Laz kingdom. The natives were Laz.


    Keep in mind that in general Anatolia has become more Eastern shifted not just because of Turkic impact that is including Christians. So maybe the natives of Pontus could've been more western shifted than modern Pontic Greeks that is not to say that modern Pontians have absolutely no Ancient Greek ancestry (I am sure they do). But PCA can get interpreted in many different ways, what pulls them west and what pulls them east.

    Southern Italians are closer to Ancient Greeks than Cretans but that does not mean they have more Ancient Greek ancestry than Cretans.
    The geographical boundaries of Lazika, according to historians, are the river Fassis to the northeast, but there is disagreement about its western boundaries, since Xenophon extends them to Trabzon and Arrianos to Ofi.
    The racial difference is a given, since the Pontians are settlers from Ionia and in fact come from Miletus which, according to the testimonies of Herodotus, Xenophon and Strabo, colonized the shores of the Black Sea, while the Laz, according to one version, attract their origin from Asia and coming from there settled in Lazika. Xenophon also refers to the Laz, emphasizing that during the descent of his myriads he was unprovokedly attacked by them, while the Greeks of Trebizond "of this most Greek city" warmly welcomed him. Throughout their history, the Laz have been distinguished for their predatory character.
    The confusion between the Greeks of the historical Pontus and the Lazes can be determined chronologically starting from the Byzantine years. Specifically, we have a reference to the name Laziki in 380 AD when Theodosius the Great awarded for the first time the title of "Lord of Colchis and Lazika", while Procopius writes that in the years of Justinian "Lazes at first inhabited Colchis". It is obvious that at that time the Lazes lived east of today's Lazika, and only during the Ottoman period did they enter Rizounta, bled and de-Hellenized the 105 villages of the Greek region and spread eastwards of Ofes.
    The Laz converted to Christianity in the 6th century, during the reign of Emperor Justinian, when their king Tzathios went to Constantinople. From that moment on, their conscious or unconscious identification with the Pontians began, after special importance was attached at the ecclesiastical level to their religious identification with the Greeks and at the level of defense in their ability to be a barrier to the Persian expansionist tendencies towards Trebizond. The result of this confusion is the reference of the Byzantine chroniclers, after giving in 1204 the nickname "lords of the Lazes" to the Komnenians of Trabzon with , a fact that certifies their ignorance.


    The first bishops of Lazika are mentioned from 680 AD and participated in the Sixth Ecumenical Council. Until the 13th century Lazika was a separate Diocese, but after the founding of the empire of Trebizond it passed to the Archbishop of Trebizond who retains the title of "Priced and Exarchist of all Lazika". In recent years the name of the Laz includes the tribes that live west of Colchis in the river Ofi, with the result that the Ottoman Empire identifies the administration of Riza as the Administration of Laz.


    With the overthrow of the Greek Empire and the rule of the Ottomans, Sultan Mehmet IV imposed violent Islamization during the period when Mehmet and Ahmet Kioproulou were the Grand Viziers, with most of the Laz converting to Islam hence now they are being differentiated by religion also.
    Until the Russo-Ottoman War of 1878, Lazistan was an autonomous administration based in Batumi. In 1878, after the occupation of Batumi by the Russians, the capital of Lazistan was moved to Rizuda.


    After the Kemalist coup, Lazistan became a prefecture and the use of its name was banned by the Turkish authorities, because it was considered that this gave rise to the recognition of ethnic groups such as the Laz outside the borders of Turkish territory.


    The younger researchers, namely D. I Economides, in his book The Pontus and the Laws of Hellenism in It, compare the language of the Laz with that of the Georgians and discover related elements by including it in the Iberian language family.


    However, the research shows in an absolute way that there is no relationship between the Laz and the Pontians, since they have their own language, their own customs and traditions. Moreover, throughout their historical course, they defended their ethno-local identity, persecuting Hellenism in the logic of multifaceted competition. In fact, at the end of the 20th century, they were the most terrible pirates of the eastern part of the Black Sea.


    It is therefore necessary today to stop the identification of the Pontians with the Laz. In fact, the reasons for the often repeated use of the homogenization of the two diametrically opposed ethnicities are sought by Pontian scholars with insidious actions. According to the assessments of some representatives of refugee associations, which, as far as I know, have not been scientifically researched, the identification was invented by Bulgarian historians in order to devalue the settlement of the Pontians in Macedonia. According to a second version, the identification aims at the discrediting of the Pontians themselves, since it is perpetuated by non-historians, who give the Pontian tribe the resin of the uncivilized.

  24. #499
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    At least 3-4 studies on ancient samples from Italy are about to be published. At least two include ancient samples from southern Italy, and one definitely includes samples from Sicily. Instead, unfortunately, to my knowledge there are no rumors yet about studies with ancient samples from Calabria.


    Unraveling the genetic history of Italians: a genome-wide study of Iron Age Italic populations

    Zaro Valentina (1), Vergata Chiara (1), Cannariato Costanza (1), Modi Alessandra (1), Vai Stefania (1), Pilli Elena (1), Diroma Maria Angela (1), Caramelli David (1), Lari Martina (1)
    1 - Department of Biology, University of Florence, Florence, Italy (Italy)

    The high genetic variability of present-day Italians reflects a complex scenario of past population dynamics dating back not only to Late Paleolithic and Neolithic but also Metal Ages. Although many archaeogenetic studies have been recently carried out to investigate the peopling of Europe, only few genomic data have been reported from Italic populations so far, especially the ones belonging to the last phase of Metal Ages: the Iron Age. To outline a picture of Iron Age genetic variability within the Italian context and infer potential gene flow patterns, we collected 78 human remains from 8 Iron Age necropolises covering 5 different regions of Italy (Emilia-Romagna, Umbria, Marche, Latium and Sicily). Double stranded half-UDG libraries were produced and then shotgun sequenced on an Illumina NovaSeq6000 platform to allow for an initial screening of the samples. Raw reads were processed using the EAGER pipeline and then assessment of DNA authenticity and sex determination were performed. Preliminary population genetics tests were run on genotyped data by building a west Eurasian PCA including all the samples with at least 10.000 SNPs covered on the Affymetrix Human Origins panel. The first results highlight an affinity of the majority of the samples with previously reported Iron Age individuals from Italy, while all samples from Sicily overlap with the genetic variability observed in this area during the Bronze Age. Our aim is to deeper investigate these samples which can significantly contribute to better understand past peopling dynamics of the Italian peninsula and reconstruct modern Italians' genetic history.









    Pax Augusta: Fascinating study by Valentina et al from the University of Florence. While all of the studies findings are of interest to me, the one I find most interesting are the ones that indicate Iron Age Sicilian samples (800BC to 400BC) overlap the genetic variability found during Bronze Age Sicily. I assume they are referring to the Bronze Age samples from Sicily in Fernandes et al 2020 and also the Sicilian Bell Beaker from Olade et al 2018 (I4930), although I guess one could be dogmatic and say the Sicilian Bell Beaker culture was more Copper age.
    Last edited by Palermo Trapani; 09-12-21 at 15:51.

  25. #500
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Some members seem to be stuck on the pre 2010 stereotype of proto-/Albanians as irrelevant bystanders in the genetics of the region.

    I have no idea if Dienekes is Lazaridis, since from the research I did there is circumstantial evidence. But if he is, Lazaridis seems very impartial once confronted by evidence. His Minoan and Mycenean study is living proof. As for Dienekes I was trying to figure out what he claimed about Albanians since you guys mentioned it 3-4 times, as if he dissed or something, but I saw nothing of the kind on his blog.

    Davidski might be stubborn, but at least you know once he deletes one of the blogs, he accepted the fact that his hypothesis got rejected. As was the case with L283 coming via sea route from the Caucasus. On the other hand I have no idea why you guys hate him so much? Is this some long feud you have been having or what? If anything I find it amusing how he challenges the crown jewels of genetics. Certainly not advisable I would say. But amusing nonetheless.

    But yeah someone with info, Angela? Bekas? What did Dienekes say that would make Albanians not like him?
    Since you are solely arguing with ihype2, try not to project all Albanians into the positions he is holding.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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