The genetic origin of Daunians

**ihype02** · 09-12-21, 11:25

^^ The discussion about Dienekes was over you are a little bit late to the party.

**Hawk** · 09-12-21, 14:41

I think Dienekes was a great blogger with excellent knowledge on history, archaeology, genetics. He might be Lazaridis, who knows, i have no clue.

But, that he was biased toward Albanians he was. You can get the vibe when he was writing about Albanians. Like for E-V13, when he was saying that all E-V13 in Albanians is due to Late Middle Age boom of specific sub-clade. Well, he was saying a true + lie mix. That specific sub-clade which he was refusing to specify was Berisha-Sopi sub-clade, and it's true it had a boom after XII century but it doesn't even remotely contain the vast majority of Albanian E-V13.

This of course doesn't change the fact that the guy was a pleasure to read on various topics. Beside that, maybe his antagonism toward Albanians made him believe so, it was more than 10 years what he stated, and we all do a lot of errors/assumptions. What's more important is to acknowledge the mistakes.

**ihype02** · 09-12-21, 16:31

Originally Posted by Carnimirie

Thanks for the info Pax. Surprised Calabria is overlooked, I feel the Oenotrians and/or the populous Greek colonies would solve the puzzle

The Iron Age Campanian study has over 100 Ancient Samples. If there is a male bias in those samples we will see a massive amount of Y-Dna from Native Southern Italians.

**kingjohn** · 09-12-21, 16:35

Originally Posted by Pax Augusta

At least 3-4 studies on ancient samples from Italy are about to be published. At least two include ancient samples from southern Italy, and one definitely includes samples from Sicily. Instead, unfortunately, to my knowledge there are no rumors yet about studies with ancient samples from Calabria.

Unraveling the genetic history of Italians: a genome-wide study of Iron Age Italic populations

Zaro Valentina (1), Vergata Chiara (1), Cannariato Costanza (1), Modi Alessandra (1), Vai Stefania (1), Pilli Elena (1), Diroma Maria Angela (1), Caramelli David (1), Lari Martina (1)
1 - Department of Biology, University of Florence, Florence, Italy (Italy)

The high genetic variability of present-day Italians reflects a complex scenario of past population dynamics dating back not only to Late Paleolithic and Neolithic but also Metal Ages. Although many archaeogenetic studies have been recently carried out to investigate the peopling of Europe, only few genomic data have been reported from Italic populations so far, especially the ones belonging to the last phase of Metal Ages: the Iron Age. To outline a picture of Iron Age genetic variability within the Italian context and infer potential gene flow patterns, we collected 78 human remains from 8 Iron Age necropolises covering 5 different regions of Italy (Emilia-Romagna, Umbria, Marche, Latium and Sicily). Double stranded half-UDG libraries were produced and then shotgun sequenced on an Illumina NovaSeq6000 platform to allow for an initial screening of the samples. Raw reads were processed using the EAGER pipeline and then assessment of DNA authenticity and sex determination were performed. Preliminary population genetics tests were run on genotyped data by building a west Eurasian PCA including all the samples with at least 10.000 SNPs covered on the Affymetrix Human Origins panel. The first results highlight an affinity of the majority of the samples with previously reported Iron Age individuals from Italy, while all samples from Sicily overlap with the genetic variability observed in this area during the Bronze Age. Our aim is to deeper investigate these samples which can significantly contribute to better understand past peopling dynamics of the Italian peninsula and reconstruct modern Italians' genetic history.

thanks

that should be interesting

**Ralphie Boy** · 09-12-21, 18:07

At least in terms of Italy and the Balkans, Cavalli-Sforza appears to have been right, that by the Middle Ages, indigenous populations were too large to be completely replaced by “barbarian” invasions like Slavs and Germanics. The Roman Balkans study gives evidence of this. Pretty much every academic study shows the south Balkans to be the least “Slavic-like,” based on our current knowledge.

Whether Dienekes (Pontian) is Lazaridis (Pontian) doesn’t matter that much to me, so long as there’s not a big ethical breach or misrepresentation. It seems that Dienekes stopped posting more or less around the time Lazaridis became big in population genetics. Lazaridis does great work and is a pioneer in ancient Greek genetics. Look forward to his next papers.

**Carnimirie** · 09-12-21, 18:58

Originally Posted by ihype02

The Iron Age Campanian study has over 100 Ancient Samples. If there is a male bias in those samples we will see a massive amount of Y-Dna from Native Southern Italians.

Unless there's samples from the Cilento area from south Campania I feel they are just going to turn out the usual Latin-like and not what might be a Native Southern Italian, Bay of Naples is a few steps away from Rome after all. Hence why I don't understand this tiptoeing in the immediate areas around Latinum instead of going for Salento/Calabria/Sicily if a paper on South Italian genetics is to be made.

**torzio** · 09-12-21, 19:14

scholars should see if any link the

https://www.earth-prints.org/bitstre...0al%202021.pdf

with the Croatia paper

and the Daunian paper

**ihype02** · 09-12-21, 20:15

Originally Posted by Carnimirie

Unless there's samples from the Cilento area from south Campania I feel they are just going to turn out the usual Latin-like and not what might be a Native Southern Italian, Bay of Naples is a few steps away from Rome after all. Hence why I don't understand this tiptoeing in the immediate areas around Latinum instead of going for Salento/Calabria/Sicily if a paper on South Italian genetics is to be made.

In the Daunian PCA it seems that ORD009 falls in into the Campanian cluster. But that PCA seem to be questionable.
Overall they seem like similar to Latins and Etruscans but they are pulled towards Central Italians, so not exactly the same.

**Salento** · 10-12-21, 06:47

S vs SGRs …

San Giovanni Rotondo … + Padre Pio

SGR001

SGR002

SGR003

**Salento** · 10-12-21, 07:08

SAL vs SALs …

SAL001

SAL003

SAL007

SAL010

SAL011

**Salento** · 10-12-21, 07:28

S vs ORDs

ORD001

ORD004

ORD006

ORD009

ORD010

ORD011

ORD014

ORD019

**Palermo Trapani** · 10-12-21, 08:06

Salento: San Giovanni Rotondo and Padre Pio, you are I assume referring to the famous Capuchin Franciscan correct? So those samples are from his home town or he actually is from the same town as those ancient samples. Very interesting.

How are things going?

**Salento** · 10-12-21, 08:41

Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani

Salento: San Giovanni Rotondo and Padre Pio, you are I assume referring to the famous Capuchin Franciscan correct? So those samples are from his home town or he actually is from the same town as those ancient samples. Very interesting.

How are things going?

He’s from Pietralcina (Campania - Benevento), His convent is in San Giovanni Rotondo and he also founded a hospital there, … I’ve been there in the past on more than one occasion to visit sick relatives, … it’s one of the best hospitals around.

… I’m doing fine, Thanks, … hope you’re OK too :)

**Bekas** · 10-12-21, 11:01

Originally Posted by ihype02

He must've tried several methods and picked which ever he liked best.

Sour grapes, friend. Why would an Albanian poster be so sour about Pontic Greeks being related to ancient Greeks, what would be the repercussion for the West Balkans, anyways, Pontics are Ionics + Colchians by historical sources and they speak Ionic Greek, they have nothing to do with Albanians or the Balkans, they never mixed with them or fought against them or whatever, no one cares about Albania or Albanians in Pontic circles.

And here are some other pass runs, with Caucasus references, for you since you think I cherry pick, if you have any ideas you want to test further, I can try and accommodate you, write it here or send a PM. I apologize in advance, mods, for taking space in this thread.

qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1852179557
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
ponticgreek
Greece_BA_Mycenaean
Armenian.DG

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 13 chisq: 19.351 tail: 0.112628612 dofdiff: 15 chisqdiff: -19.351 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.152
China_Tianyuan 0.405
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.198
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.373
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.697
Turkey_N_published 1.932
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.301
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.465
Papuan.DG 0.118
Israel_Natufian_published 2.314
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.363
ONG.SG -0.035
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.677
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.893
A:
scale 1034.583
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.267
Armenian.DG -0.628

full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: 19.351 taildiff: 0.112628612
B:
scale 659.683 1298.492
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.583 0.861
China_Tianyuan 0.613 0.272
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.347 0.188
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.639 -0.591
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.918 -0.153
Turkey_N_published 1.297 -2.027
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.663 0.525
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.530 -1.892
Papuan.DG 0.440 0.708
Israel_Natufian_published 2.006 -1.287
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.361 -0.163
ONG.SG 0.212 0.592
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.232 -1.509
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.240 -0.001
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
Armenian.DG 0.000 1.414

best coefficients: 0.332 0.668
totmean: 0.332 0.668
boot mean: 0.330 0.670
std. errors: 0.099 0.099

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
9781 -9781
-9781 9781

summ: ponticgreek 2 0.112629 0.330 0.670 9781 -9781 9781

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 13 19.351 0.112629 0.332 0.668
01 1 14 68.855 3.10871e-09 1.000 0.000
10 1 14 32.298 0.00363269 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.112629 - -
best pat: 10 0.00363269 chi(nested): 12.948 p-value for nested model: 0.000320318

coeffs: 0.332 0.668

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000884 1.384109
details: Armenian.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000663 1.092505
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000736 Z: 1.262826

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.000929 1.263714
details: Armenian.DG China_Tianyuan 0.000209 0.304151
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.000448 Z: 0.670400

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000525 0.980666
details: Armenian.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000145 0.288225
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000271 Z: 0.554900

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000969 -1.836263
details: Armenian.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000455 -0.890073
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: -0.000625 Z: -1.275780

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001392 -2.032289
details: Armenian.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000118 -0.182006
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000540 Z: -0.867427

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.001966 3.845090
details: Armenian.DG Turkey_N_published -0.001561 -3.175836
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: -0.000391 Z: -0.832079

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.001005 1.308561
details: Armenian.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000404 0.558771
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000603 Z: 0.862824

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002319 -2.996201
details: Armenian.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.001457 -1.981802
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.001743 Z: -2.452335

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000667 1.243099
details: Armenian.DG Papuan.DG 0.000545 1.050728
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000585 Z: 1.185686

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.003042 2.661123
details: Armenian.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.000991 -0.964655
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.000346 Z: 0.338247

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000548 0.882014
details: Armenian.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000126 -0.222668
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000098 Z: 0.176826

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG 0.000321 0.591893
details: Armenian.DG ONG.SG 0.000456 0.883819
dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000411 Z: 0.827085

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.001868 3.293926
details: Armenian.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.001162 -2.155761
dscore: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi f4: -0.000158 Z: -0.302528

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.001879 1.831375
details: Armenian.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.000001 -0.000896
dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: 0.000622 Z: 0.649883

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 1.263
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 0.670
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.555
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.276
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.867
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published -0.832
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.863
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.452
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 1.186
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.338
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.177
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 0.827
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.303
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.650
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -0.412
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.636
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -2.302
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.767
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published -1.943
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.174
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -3.183
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.240
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.369
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.983
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.560
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.417
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.112
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.230
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.624
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.254
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published -1.342
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.193
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.608
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 0.217
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published -0.095
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.531
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -0.059
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.895
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.169
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.400
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.118
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published -1.086
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.426
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.438
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG 0.480
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.068
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.256
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG 0.219
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.638
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.346
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.146
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published 0.491
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.791
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.651
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG 2.297
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.966
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.281
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG 1.958
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.907
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.300
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published 0.243
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.386
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.594
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 1.642
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.798
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.920
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG 1.418
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.602
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.184
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.454
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.947
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG 1.912
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 0.740
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.873
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG 1.590
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.549
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.133
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.689
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.026
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.227
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.706
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.279
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.069
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.018
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG 3.170
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.820
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 2.418
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG 3.063
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 2.182
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 2.210
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.230
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.965
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.369
gendstat: Papuan.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.348
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.037
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.241
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG 0.065
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.488
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.209
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG 0.641
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.446
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.518
gendstat: ONG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.037
gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.212
gendstat: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.852

##end of qpAdm: 2.287 seconds cpu 0.827 Mbytes in use

qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1851216433
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
ponticgreek
Greece_BA_Mycenaean
Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 13 chisq: 14.653 tail: 0.329489418 dofdiff: 15 chisqdiff: -14.653 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.661
China_Tianyuan 0.856
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.372
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.318
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.755
Turkey_N_published 1.369
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.697
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.889
Papuan.DG 0.619
Israel_Natufian_published 2.234
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.540
ONG.SG 0.441
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.132
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.315
A:
scale 756.248
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.293
Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG 0.572

full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: 14.653 taildiff: 0.329489418
B:
scale 659.683 1168.153
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.583 -0.187
China_Tianyuan 0.613 -0.533
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.347 0.139
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.639 -1.440
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.918 -1.027
Turkey_N_published 1.297 0.211
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.663 0.124
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.530 -2.901
Papuan.DG 0.440 -0.636
Israel_Natufian_published 2.006 0.469
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.361 -0.596
ONG.SG 0.212 -0.711
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.232 0.755
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.240 -0.033
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG 0.000 1.414

best coefficients: -0.793 1.793
totmean: -0.793 1.793
boot mean: -0.889 1.889
std. errors: 1.312 1.312

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
1721564 -1721564
-1721564 1721564

summ: ponticgreek 2 0.329489 -0.889 1.889 1721564 -1721564 1721564

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 13 14.653 0.329489 -0.793 1.793 infeasible
01 1 14 68.835 3.13516e-09 1.000 0.000
10 1 14 26.204 0.0243804 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.329489 - -
best pat: 10 0.0243804 chi(nested): 11.551 p-value for nested model: 0.000677124

coeffs: -0.793 1.793

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000884 1.384109
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -0.000160 -0.258653
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: -0.000987 Z: -1.238219

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.000929 1.263714
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG China_Tianyuan -0.000456 -0.632830
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: -0.001554 Z: -1.686155

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000525 0.980666
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000119 0.226660
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: -0.000203 Z: -0.300067

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000969 -1.836263
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.001233 -2.323321
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: -0.001442 Z: -2.090971

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001392 -2.032289
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000880 -1.279017
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000473 Z: -0.519852

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.001966 3.845090
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Turkey_N_published 0.000181 0.344879
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: -0.001234 Z: -1.775053

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.001005 1.308561
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000106 0.137055
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: -0.000606 Z: -0.591766

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002319 -2.996201
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002483 -3.212607
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.002614 Z: -2.619484

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000667 1.243099
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Papuan.DG -0.000544 -1.003899
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: -0.001504 Z: -2.079850

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.003042 2.661123
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.000401 0.360063
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: -0.001691 Z: -1.208834

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000548 0.882014
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000511 -0.881531
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: -0.001349 Z: -1.842351

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG 0.000321 0.591893
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG ONG.SG -0.000609 -1.089144
dscore: ONG.SG f4: -0.001346 Z: -1.866281

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.001868 3.293926
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.000647 1.145080
dscore: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi f4: -0.000322 Z: -0.442918

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.001879 1.831375
details: Turkey_OldHittitePeriod.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.000028 -0.027526
dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: -0.001540 Z: -1.182773

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG -1.238
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan -1.686
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.300
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -2.091
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.520
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published -1.775
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.592
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.619
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG -2.080
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published -1.209
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.842
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG -1.866
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.443
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -1.183
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -0.559
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.806
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.536
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.493
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published -0.289
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.348
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.481
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.602
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.465
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.415
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.428
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.749
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.411
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 1.306
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.119
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.950
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published 0.354
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.855
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.916
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 0.057
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published -0.086
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.236
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG 0.236
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.279
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.010
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.413
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.257
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published -1.187
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.352
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.077
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -1.441
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.974
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.235
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -1.274
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.132
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.961
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG 1.158
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published 0.313
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.835
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.225
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG -0.086
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published -0.178
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.122
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG 0.132
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.617
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.076
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published -0.866
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.112
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.000
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG -1.065
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.800
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.917
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG -0.939
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.168
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.800
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.626
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.460
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -0.374
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published -0.330
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.153
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -0.158
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.602
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.255
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.619
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.894
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.653
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.720
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.737
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.272
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.631
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG 1.091
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.567
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.228
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG 1.286
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 2.320
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.763
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.129
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.217
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG 0.238
gendstat: Papuan.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.562
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.027
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.233
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG 0.244
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.979
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.082
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG 0.005
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.337
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.143
gendstat: ONG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.338
gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.148
gendstat: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -1.001

##end of qpAdm: 2.291 seconds cpu 0.827 Mbytes in use

qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1861002436
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
ponticgreek
Greece_BA_Mycenaean
Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 13 chisq: 16.411 tail: 0.227652452 dofdiff: 15 chisqdiff: -16.411 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.455
China_Tianyuan 0.228
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.311
Iran_GanjDareh_N -1.369
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.667
Turkey_N_published 1.995
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.050
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.872
Papuan.DG 0.038
Israel_Natufian_published 1.852
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.089
ONG.SG -0.033
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.700
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.503
A:
scale 985.794
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.001
Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz -0.999

full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: 16.411 taildiff: 0.227652452
B:
scale 659.683 962.837
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.583 0.030
China_Tianyuan 0.613 0.676
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.347 -0.127
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.639 1.759
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.918 -0.192
Turkey_N_published 1.297 -1.929
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.663 1.015
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.530 -0.771
Papuan.DG 0.440 0.626
Israel_Natufian_published 2.006 -0.783
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.361 0.754
ONG.SG 0.212 0.477
Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.232 -1.516
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.240 0.975
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Greece_BA_Mycenaean 1.414 0.000
Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz 0.000 1.414

best coefficients: 0.500 0.500
totmean: 0.500 0.500
boot mean: 0.499 0.501
std. errors: 0.073 0.073

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
5346 -5346
-5346 5346

summ: ponticgreek 2 0.227652 0.499 0.501 5346 -5346 5346

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 13 16.411 0.227652 0.500 0.500
01 1 14 68.785 3.20081e-09 1.000 0.000
10 1 14 57.685 2.97542e-07 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.227652 - -
best pat: 10 2.97542e-07 chi(nested): 41.274 p-value for nested model: 1.32322e-10

coeffs: 0.500 0.500

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000884 1.384109
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000032 0.044292
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000458 Z: 0.736911

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean China_Tianyuan 0.000929 1.263714
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz China_Tianyuan 0.000702 0.845049
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: 0.000816 Z: 1.137829

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000525 0.980666
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000132 -0.212188
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000197 Z: 0.373474

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000969 -1.836263
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.001826 3.021005
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.000430 Z: 0.828197

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.001392 -2.032289
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000199 -0.247325
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000796 Z: -1.174027

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Turkey_N_published 0.001966 3.845090
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Turkey_N_published -0.002004 -3.297215
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: -0.000020 Z: -0.039211

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.001005 1.308561
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.001054 1.172802
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.001029 Z: 1.348710

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.002319 -2.996201
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000801 -0.944422
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: -0.001559 Z: -2.097145

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Papuan.DG 0.000667 1.243099
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Papuan.DG 0.000651 1.056604
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000659 Z: 1.261514

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Israel_Natufian_published 0.003042 2.661123
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Israel_Natufian_published -0.000813 -0.685253
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.001113 Z: 1.035388

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000548 0.882014
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000783 1.178402
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000665 Z: 1.138853

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean ONG.SG 0.000321 0.591893
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz ONG.SG 0.000496 0.822909
dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000408 Z: 0.783034

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.001868 3.293926
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.001575 -2.412478
dscore: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi f4: 0.000146 Z: 0.259611

details: Greece_BA_Mycenaean Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.001879 1.831375
details: Iran_IA_HajjiFiruz Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.001013 0.889496
dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: 0.001446 Z: 1.433914

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.737
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan 1.138
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.373
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.828
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.174
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published -0.039
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.349
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.097
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 1.262
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 1.035
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.139
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 0.783
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.260
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.434
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan 0.476
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.334
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.045
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.623
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published -0.754
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.688
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.476
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG 0.307
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.587
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.307
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.082
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.465
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.944
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.744
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.540
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.930
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published -1.203
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.243
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.629
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG -0.229
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published 0.257
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.210
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG -0.598
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.907
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.599
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.337
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.272
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published -0.324
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.972
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -1.987
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG 0.672
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.785
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.644
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG 0.314
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.071
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.159
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -1.905
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published -0.884
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.814
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.729
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG 0.413
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.636
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.405
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.038
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.527
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.016
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published 1.164
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 2.016
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.957
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 1.974
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 1.658
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 2.022
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG 1.714
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 1.385
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 2.151
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.400
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.082
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG 1.232
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 1.086
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.172
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG 0.802
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 0.363
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.549
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -2.704
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.502
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.070
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.482
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.864
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -1.160
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.375
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG 2.838
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published 2.228
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 2.740
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG 2.662
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi 2.274
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 2.635
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.415
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.012
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.502
gendstat: Papuan.DG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.876
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.764
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.408
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -0.656
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.906
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.240
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -0.501
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.862
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.752
gendstat: ONG.SG Greece_Minoan_Lassithi -0.461
gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.012
gendstat: Greece_Minoan_Lassithi Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.345

##end of qpAdm: 2.284 seconds cpu 0.827 Mbytes in use

Mycenean + Armenian = 33.2% + 66.8% (std. error = 9.9% which is kind of bad).

Mycenean + Turkey_Hittite_Period = fail.

Mycenean + Iran_Hajji-Firuz_IronAge = 50% + 50% (std. error = 7.3% which is almost perfect).

So you can see, no matter how you spin it, Pontic Greeks have very visible Mycenean genetics in addition to their local South Caucasus ancestry, which is exactly in line with their historical origin.

**ihype02** · 10-12-21, 14:51

Originally Posted by Bekas

Sour grapes, friend. Why would an Albanian poster be so sour about Pontic Greeks being related to ancient Greeks, what would be the repercussion for the West Balkans, anyways, Pontics are Ionics + Colchians by historical sources and they speak Ionic Greek, they have nothing to do with Albanians or the Balkans, they never mixed with them or fought against them or whatever, no one cares about Albania or Albanians in Pontic circles.

And here are some other pass runs, with Caucasus references, for you since you think I cherry pick, if you have any ideas you want to test further, I can try and accommodate you, write it here or send a PM. I apologize in advance, mods, for taking space in this thread.

Mycenean + Armenian = 33.2% + 66.8% (std. error = 9.9% which is kind of bad).

Mycenean + Turkey_Hittite_Period = fail.

Mycenean + Iran_Hajji-Firuz_IronAge = 50% + 50% (std. error = 7.3% which is almost perfect).

So you can see, no matter how you spin it, Pontic Greeks have very visible Mycenean genetics in addition to their local South Caucasus ancestry, which is exactly in line with their historical origin.

Nobody is buying your BS that Pontians are 33%-40% shifted towards Mycenaeans compared to Armenians. That would mean that they are closer to Dodecanese than to Armenians. And in every single PCA that I have seen Armenians plot West of Pontians.
I have never seen anyone use this method before so probably you must've digged really hard to find good results for yourself.

I have no sour. And just as you said I have no reason to have sour. Just move along I don't care. I don't believe you. I am not arguing anymore so don't derail this thread anymore.

**Bekas** · 10-12-21, 15:47

Originally Posted by ihype02

Nobody is buying your BS that Pontians are 33%-40% shifted towards Mycenaeans compared to Armenians. That would mean that they are closer to Dodecanese than to Armenians. And in every single PCA that I have seen Armenians plot West of Pontians.
I have never seen anyone use this method before so probably you must've digged really hard to find good results for yourself.

I have no sour. And just as you said I have no reason to have sour. Just move along I don't care. I don't believe you. I am not arguing anymore so don't derail this thread anymore.

No need to get mad, bro. You can recreate all these runs down to the last decimal by using the open source qpAdm tools that are available freely to everyone, and use the Reich dataset.

Instead, you'd rather refer to the closed source "calculator" by some random blogger, who apparently is more trustworthy than qpAdm and the Reich dataset, even though all the stuff people post with his calculator contradict what is posted in the papers by Reich Labs and others, very funny, you should become a comedian.

And if no one uses qpAdm then maybe they should, there are tutorials floating around on the Net, then maybe there'll be less BS flying around, like the stuff you posted.

Now carry on with your ignorance, my work is done here.

PS. Your 2D "PCA" is very funny, I've seen more professional plots made by 11 years olds on EXCEL.

**Palermo Trapani** · 10-12-21, 15:59

Originally Posted by Salento

He’s from Pietralcina (Campania - Benevento), His convent is in San Giovanni Rotondo and he also founded a hospital there, … I’ve been there in the past on more than one occasion to visit sick relatives, … it’s one of the best hospitals around.

… I’m doing fine, Thanks, … hope you’re OK too :)

Good to hear. I am well thanks. Ok, he is from Campania but his Capuchin Community is based in San Giovanni Rotondo and the Hospital he founded.

**ihype02** · 10-12-21, 16:06

Originally Posted by Bekas

No need to get mad, bro. You can recreate all these runs down to the last decimal by using the open source qpAdm tools that are available freely to everyone, and use the Reich dataset.

Instead, you'd rather refer to the closed source "calculator" by some random blogger, who apparently is more trustworthy than qpAdm and the Reich dataset, even though all the stuff people post with his calculator contradict what is posted in the papers by Reich Labs and others, very funny, you should become a comedian.

And if no one uses qpAdm then maybe they should, there are tutorials floating around on the Net, then maybe there'll be less BS flying around, like the stuff you posted.

Now carry on with your ignorance, my work is done here.

PS. Your 2D "PCA" is very funny, I've seen more professional plots made by 11 years olds on EXCEL.

As I said before I have tested K12b and G25 they pretty much on par with results of Academic studies in most cases and G25 in all cases. And those 2 calculator are used by 95% of the community. I seriously doubt that you didn't use G25 and K12b first before moving with qpAdm.

I don't agree with this model below, but just showing that Pontians are not substantially shifted away from Armenians.

Target: Greek_Pontus Distance: 6.0923% / 6.09228533
96.7	Armenian_East

3.3	NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2)

Target: Greek_Pontus Distance: 6.7888% / 6.78877332
99.4	Armenian_West

0.6	NE_Iberia_Hel_(Empúries2)

**Dorian9** · 10-12-21, 16:39

Originally Posted by ihype02

As I said before I have tested K12b and G25 they pretty much on par with results of Academic studies in most cases and G25 in all cases. And those 2 calculator are used by 95% of the community. I seriously doubt that you didn't use G25 and K12b first before moving with qpAdm.

I don't agree with this model below, but just showing that Pontians are not substantially shifted away from Armenians.

You are assuming Armenians are some kind of pure relics for the broader area and that they are relevant for Pontians native part , don't you know already that similar profiles can be created/end up plotting together through different processes ?like for example Aegean Islanders & Ashkenazis ? Going by your logic , Ashkenazis must be converted Aegeans or is it the opposite?
Bad distance btw

**Bekas** · 10-12-21, 16:58

Originally Posted by ihype02

As I said before I have tested K12b and G25 they pretty much on par with results of Academic studies in most cases and G25 in all cases. And those 2 calculator are used by 95% of the community. I seriously doubt that you didn't use G25 and K12b first before moving with qpAdm.

Dude, all Southern Caucasians have overlapping genetic components just like you Balkanites do, and the reason being is that they all essentially derive ancestries from Kura-Araxes, Maikop and other groups in the area. I told you Pontics are Myceneans + local Colchis, do you know who ancient Colchians were? Do you know why Greeks went there? Are you familiar with the importance of the area in the ancient Greek world, the myth of Jason and the Argonauts and the ancient tragedy of Medea by Euripides?

Do you have an ancient Colchis sample? No? Neither do I, that's why I use other proxies in the geographical area, like Georgians, Armenians, Maikop, Kura-araxes, etc.

And they all pass showing 60-70% "native" South Caucasus and 30-40% Mycenean.

And you bring me those laughable PCAs as an answer in order to tell me it's barely 10-15%, when I provide you with proof it's not. And, by the way, since you use 25 dimensions in your PCA, flip the dimensions and show us how the PCA looks like from other "angles", ie using other dimensions in the X and Y axis, not just the one that suits your little fairytale.

You Albanian guys are something else, proclaimed experts on all things ancient Greek, too bad it's all BS.

**ihype02** · 10-12-21, 17:21

Originally Posted by DorianTA

You are assuming Armenians are some kind of pure relics for the broader area and that they are relevant for Pontians native part , don't you know already that similar profiles can be created/end up plotting together through different processes ?like for example Aegean Islanders & Ashkenazis ? Going by your logic , Ashkenazis must be converted Aegeans or is it the opposite?
Bad distance btw

No I was not assuming that. Read again, I was showing that they are not 30% shifted away from Armenians to shows Bekas that his calculation is not accurate. Please read again.

**ihype02** · 10-12-21, 17:30

Originally Posted by Bekas

Dude, all Southern Caucasians have overlapping genetic components just like you Balkanites do, and the reason being is that they all essentially derive ancestries from Kura-Araxes, Maikop and other groups in the area. I told you Pontics are Myceneans + local Colchis, do you know who ancient Colchians were? Do you know why Greeks went there? Are you familiar with the importance of the area in the ancient Greek world, the myth of Jason and the Argonauts and the ancient tragedy of Medea by Euripides?

Do you have an ancient Colchis sample? No? Neither do I, that's why I use other proxies in the geographical area, like Georgians, Armenians, Maikop, Kura-araxes, etc.

And they all pass showing 60-70% "native" South Caucasus and 30-40% Mycenean.

And you bring me those laughable PCAs as an answer in order to tell me it's barely 10-15%, when I provide you with proof it's not. And, by the way, since you use 25 dimensions in your PCA, flip the dimensions and show us how the PCA looks like from other "angles", ie using other dimensions in the X and Y axis, not just the one that suits your little fairytale.

You Albanian guys are something else, proclaimed experts on all things ancient Greek, too bad it's all BS.

You are entitled to your wrong opinion that is fine. Let's not derail this thread any more.

**Bekas** · 10-12-21, 17:31

Originally Posted by ihype02

No I was not assuming that. Read again, I was showing that they are not 30% shifted away from Armenians to shows Bekas that his calculation is not accurate. Please read again.

The run with the Armenian sample in the Reich dataset has a big standard-error, so it's not a very good result, I told you in my original post. The Armenians have too much Steppe to transform into Pontic Greeks all of the sudden. Where did all that Steppe admixture go? And where did all that Armenian R1b disappear, it's their dominant marker, Pontic Greeks barely have any R1b. It's a nonsensical argument.

Also, I used your preferred method of analysis, and even your G25 corroborates my above results, so really, what are you on about, dude?

Target: Greek_Trabzon Distance: 2.5329% / 0.02532875
63.2	RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
36.8	GRC_Mycenaean

**ihype02** · 10-12-21, 17:34

Originally Posted by Bekas

The run with the Armenian sample in the Reich dataset has a big standard-error, so it's not a very good result, I told you in my original post. The Armenians have too much Steppe to transform into Pontic Greeks all of the sudden. Where did all that Steppe admixture go? And where did all that Armenian R1b disappear, it's their dominant marker, Pontic Greeks barely have any R1b. It's a nonsensical argument.

Also, I used your preferred method of analysis, and even your G25 corroborates my above results, so really, what are you on about, dude?

Wait until we have Iron Ages natives of Pontus so you can use it then.

**Bekas** · 10-12-21, 17:35

Originally Posted by ihype02

You are entitled to your wrong opinion that is fine. Let's not derail this thread any more.

When you attack an ethnic group like Pontic Greeks that have nothing to do with you or your ilk, you should be ready to defend your nonsense, or risk getting exposed like you just have.

You're welcome.

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