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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians

  1. #526
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-10-16
    Posts
    1,031


    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bekas View Post
    When you attack an ethnic group like Pontic Greeks that have nothing to do with you or your ilk, you should be ready to defend your nonsense, or risk getting exposed like you just have.
    You're welcome.
    Aww you did a great job defending your case.

    Here is an "attack" to the Turks.


  2. #527
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    12-10-16
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    1,031


    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Using a very distant northeastern source and Middle Bronze Age sample from Balkans. 90% native, I'll take it.
    Target: Albanian
    Distance: 1.8596% / 0.01859614
    47.8 GRC_Logkas_MBA
    41.2 BGR_IA
    11.0 Russian_Leshukonsky

  3. #528
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    03-03-21
    Posts
    39


    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Using a very distant northeastern source and Middle Bronze Age sample from Balkans. 90% native, I'll take it.
    Target: Albanian
    Distance: 1.8596% / 0.01859614
    47.8 GRC_Logkas_MBA
    41.2 BGR_IA
    11.0 Russian_Leshukonsky

    Your model fails qpAdm (100%-400% std. errors), even if I just use Logkas and BGR_IA without the Russian reference (20% std. errors). It goes to show that you can mix and match whatever you want in that smartPCA and get the result you want.

    Check my right pops, if you think I am failing it on purpose, and tell me what to swap but I don't think you can make it work but of course I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

    You can see all your so called expertise on archeogenetics is based on fake principles and methodology.


    qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
    ### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
    ##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
    fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
    popleft: left.txt
    popright: right.txt
    details: YES
    ## qpAdm version: 1520
    seed: 1745086563
    *** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
    inbreed set NO

    left pops:
    Albanian.DG
    Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG
    Russian.DG
    Bulgaria_IA

    right pops:
    Mbuti.DG
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
    China_Tianyuan
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
    Iran_GanjDareh_N
    Georgia_Kotias.SG
    Turkey_N_published
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
    Papuan.DG
    Israel_Natufian_published
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
    ONG.SG
    Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

    codimension 1
    f4info:
    f4rank: 2 dof: 11 chisq: 7.503 tail: 0.756986369 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -7.503 taildiff: 1
    B:
    scale 1.000 1.000
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.721 1.351
    China_Tianyuan 1.077 2.082
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.135 0.406
    Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.397 0.634
    Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.396 0.033
    Turkey_N_published -1.850 0.561
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.421 -0.508
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.528 -0.062
    Papuan.DG 0.658 0.361
    Israel_Natufian_published -1.309 0.997
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.468 0.459
    ONG.SG 0.934 -0.832
    Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.296 -1.915
    A:
    scale 1063.244 3571.596
    Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG -0.092 -0.724
    Russian.DG 1.541 0.264
    Bulgaria_IA -0.785 1.551


    full rank
    f4info:
    f4rank: 3 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 7.503 taildiff: 0.756986369
    B:
    scale 2249.860 662.058 1051.142
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.023 0.936 0.312
    China_Tianyuan -1.366 1.114 -0.031
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.067 -0.028 0.426
    Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.139 -0.250 0.738
    Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.115 -0.440 0.177
    Turkey_N_published 0.844 -1.581 2.026
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.223 1.641 -0.909
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.086 -0.014 1.234
    Papuan.DG 0.071 0.759 -0.215
    Israel_Natufian_published 0.619 -1.038 1.880
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.503 1.690 -0.472
    ONG.SG 0.098 0.869 -1.172
    Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.972 0.407 -0.718
    A:
    scale 1.732 1.732 1.732
    Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG 1.732 0.000 0.000
    Russian.DG 0.000 1.732 0.000
    Bulgaria_IA 0.000 0.000 1.732


    best coefficients: 0.590 0.162 0.248
    totmean: 0.590 0.162 0.248
    boot mean: 0.512 0.185 0.303
    std. errors: 4.713 1.366 3.359

    error covariance (* 1,000,000)
    22215646 -6400915 -15814731
    -6400915 1865799 4535115
    -15814731 4535115 11279616


    summ: Albanian.DG 3 0.756986 0.512 0.185 0.303 22215646 -6400915 -15814731 1865799 4535115 ...
    11279616

    fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
    000 0 11 7.503 0.756986 0.590 0.162 0.248
    001 1 12 8.778 0.721776 0.956 0.044 0.000
    010 1 12 9.018 0.701406 0.973 0.000 0.027
    100 1 12 10.316 0.58825 0.000 0.378 0.622
    011 2 13 8.970 0.775195 1.000 0.000 0.000
    101 2 13 146.907 8.64338e-25 0.000 1.000 0.000
    110 2 13 46.517 1.16526e-05 0.000 0.000 1.000
    best pat: 000 0.756986 - -
    best pat: 001 0.721776 chi(nested): 1.275 p-value for nested model: 0.258906
    best pat: 011 0.775195 chi(nested): 0.192 p-value for nested model: 0.661043

    coeffs: 0.590 0.162 0.248

    ## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
    ## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000010 0.020102
    details: Russian.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.001414 2.828730
    details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000297 0.494272
    dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000308 Z: 0.672052

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG China_Tianyuan -0.000607 -1.143472
    details: Russian.DG China_Tianyuan 0.001683 3.113433
    details: Bulgaria_IA China_Tianyuan -0.000029 -0.044130
    dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: -0.000094 Z: -0.190328

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000030 0.088520
    details: Russian.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000043 -0.118470
    details: Bulgaria_IA Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000405 0.880748
    dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000111 Z: 0.350062

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000062 0.154182
    details: Russian.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000377 -0.933407
    details: Bulgaria_IA Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000702 1.466881
    dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.000150 Z: 0.406190

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000051 -0.092787
    details: Russian.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000665 -1.270056
    details: Bulgaria_IA Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.000168 0.258575
    dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000096 Z: -0.192390

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Turkey_N_published 0.000375 0.900532
    details: Russian.DG Turkey_N_published -0.002388 -5.897841
    details: Bulgaria_IA Turkey_N_published 0.001927 3.898686
    dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: 0.000313 Z: 0.826365

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000544 0.895076
    details: Russian.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.002479 4.213458
    details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.000865 -1.197446
    dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000507 Z: 0.918992

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000927 1.664804
    details: Russian.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000020 -0.035723
    details: Bulgaria_IA Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.001174 1.743844
    dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: 0.000835 Z: 1.656602

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Papuan.DG 0.000031 0.074762
    details: Russian.DG Papuan.DG 0.001147 2.724199
    details: Bulgaria_IA Papuan.DG -0.000205 -0.379783
    dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000153 Z: 0.394858

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.000275 0.439941
    details: Russian.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.001568 -2.676275
    details: Bulgaria_IA Israel_Natufian_published 0.001789 2.317213
    dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.000352 Z: 0.624305

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000224 0.501985
    details: Russian.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.002553 5.711301
    details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000449 -0.838048
    dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000433 Z: 1.079253

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG ONG.SG 0.000043 0.103717
    details: Russian.DG ONG.SG 0.001313 3.120722
    details: Bulgaria_IA ONG.SG -0.001115 -2.179602
    dscore: ONG.SG f4: -0.000038 Z: -0.100956

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.000876 1.366422
    details: Russian.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.000614 1.044836
    details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.000683 -0.917393
    dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: 0.000447 Z: 0.804824

    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.672
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan -0.190
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.350
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.406
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.192
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published 0.826
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.919
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.657
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 0.395
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.624
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.079
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG -0.101
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.805
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -0.764
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.378
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.340
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.717
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published 0.010
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.336
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.927
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.354
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.068
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.267
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.768
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.215
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.372
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.496
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.004
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published 0.786
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.018
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.531
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 0.523
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published 0.679
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.117
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG 0.122
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.776
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.082
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.366
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published 0.431
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.647
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.252
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG 0.088
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.395
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.659
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -0.320
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.533
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.554
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published 0.457
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.692
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.446
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG 0.009
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.367
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.688
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.468
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.531
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published 0.845
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.951
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.775
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 0.482
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.704
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.043
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG 0.113
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.907
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.357
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.054
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -0.383
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 0.078
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.273
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -0.859
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.251
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.531
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.662
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.225
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.134
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -1.037
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.090
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -1.272
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.744
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.757
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG -1.673
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.591
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.340
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.739
    gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.558
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.501
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.133
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -0.666
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.133
    gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -1.304
    gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.023
    gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.846

    ##end of qpAdm: 7.106 seconds cpu 1.114 Mbytes in use


    qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
    ### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
    ##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
    fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
    popleft: left.txt
    popright: right.txt
    details: YES
    ## qpAdm version: 1520
    seed: 1751156740
    *** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
    inbreed set NO

    left pops:
    Albanian.DG
    Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG
    Bulgaria_IA

    right pops:
    Mbuti.DG
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
    China_Tianyuan
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
    Iran_GanjDareh_N
    Georgia_Kotias.SG
    Turkey_N_published
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
    Papuan.DG
    Israel_Natufian_published
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
    ONG.SG
    Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

    codimension 1
    f4info:
    f4rank: 1 dof: 12 chisq: 8.930 tail: 0.708937603 dofdiff: 14 chisqdiff: -8.930 taildiff: 1
    B:
    scale 1.000
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.460
    China_Tianyuan 0.601
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.425
    Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.775
    Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.294
    Turkey_N_published 1.911
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.128
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.751
    Papuan.DG -0.142
    Israel_Natufian_published 1.723
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.565
    ONG.SG -1.157
    Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -1.193
    A:
    scale 1595.301
    Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG -0.047
    Bulgaria_IA 1.413


    full rank
    f4info:
    f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 12 chisqdiff: 8.930 taildiff: 0.708937603
    B:
    scale 2249.860 1051.142
    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.023 0.312
    China_Tianyuan -1.366 -0.031
    Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.067 0.426
    Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.139 0.738
    Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.115 0.177
    Turkey_N_published 0.844 2.026
    Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.223 -0.909
    Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.086 1.234
    Papuan.DG 0.071 -0.215
    Israel_Natufian_published 0.619 1.880
    Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.503 -0.472
    ONG.SG 0.098 -1.172
    Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.972 -0.718
    A:
    scale 1.414 1.414
    Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG 1.414 0.000
    Bulgaria_IA 0.000 1.414


    best coefficients: 0.968 0.032
    totmean: 0.968 0.032
    boot mean: 0.986 0.014
    std. errors: 0.204 0.204

    error covariance (* 1,000,000)
    41467 -41467
    -41467 41467


    summ: Albanian.DG 2 0.708938 0.986 0.014 41467 -41467 41467

    fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
    00 0 12 8.930 0.708938 0.968 0.032
    01 1 13 8.980 0.774449 1.000 0.000
    10 1 13 46.582 1.13634e-05 0.000 1.000
    best pat: 00 0.708938 - -
    best pat: 01 0.774449 chi(nested): 0.051 p-value for nested model: 0.822165

    coeffs: 0.968 0.032

    ## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
    ## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000010 0.020102
    details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000297 0.494272
    dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000019 Z: 0.038859

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG China_Tianyuan -0.000607 -1.143472
    details: Bulgaria_IA China_Tianyuan -0.000029 -0.044130
    dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: -0.000589 Z: -1.119215

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000030 0.088520
    details: Bulgaria_IA Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000405 0.880748
    dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000042 Z: 0.125418

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000062 0.154182
    details: Bulgaria_IA Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000702 1.466881
    dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.000082 Z: 0.207639

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000051 -0.092787
    details: Bulgaria_IA Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.000168 0.258575
    dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000044 Z: -0.080889

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Turkey_N_published 0.000375 0.900532
    details: Bulgaria_IA Turkey_N_published 0.001927 3.898686
    dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: 0.000425 Z: 1.031729

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000544 0.895076
    details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.000865 -1.197446
    dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000498 Z: 0.829842

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000927 1.664804
    details: Bulgaria_IA Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.001174 1.743844
    dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: 0.000935 Z: 1.699930

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Papuan.DG 0.000031 0.074762
    details: Bulgaria_IA Papuan.DG -0.000205 -0.379783
    dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000024 Z: 0.057306

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.000275 0.439941
    details: Bulgaria_IA Israel_Natufian_published 0.001789 2.317213
    dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.000324 Z: 0.523733

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000224 0.501985
    details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000449 -0.838048
    dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000202 Z: 0.459198

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG ONG.SG 0.000043 0.103717
    details: Bulgaria_IA ONG.SG -0.001115 -2.179602
    dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000006 Z: 0.015071

    details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.000876 1.366422
    details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.000683 -0.917393
    dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: 0.000826 Z: 1.307974

    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.039
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan -1.119
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.125
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.208
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.081
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published 1.032
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.830
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.700
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 0.057
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.524
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.459
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 0.015
    gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.308
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -1.067
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.041
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.126
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.104
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published 0.766
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.746
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.514
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG 0.010
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.431
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.358
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.027
    gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.136
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 1.074
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.253
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.841
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published 1.812
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.658
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.299
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 1.203
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published 1.296
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.544
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG 1.225
    gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.838
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.081
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.142
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published 0.749
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.686
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.428
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -0.035
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.417
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.302
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -0.072
    gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.113
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.261
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published 0.884
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.740
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.633
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG -0.139
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.402
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.267
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.178
    gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.191
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published 0.888
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.784
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.725
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 0.122
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.524
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.444
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG 0.092
    gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.281
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.122
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.946
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -0.874
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published -0.183
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.463
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -0.941
    gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.668
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.652
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.815
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.232
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.493
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.857
    gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.448
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -1.577
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.854
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.258
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG -1.641
    gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.148
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.471
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.442
    gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.049
    gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.225
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.185
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -0.500
    gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.635
    gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -0.499
    gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.913
    gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.265

    ##end of qpAdm: 1.994 seconds cpu 0.778 Mbytes in use



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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekas View Post
    Your model fails qpAdm (100%-400% std. errors), even if I just use Logkas and BGR_IA without the Russian reference (20% std. errors). It goes to show that you can mix and match whatever you want in that smartPCA and get the result you want.

    Check my right pops, if you think I am failing it on purpose, and tell me what to swap but I don't think you can make it work but of course I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

    You can see all your so called expertise on archeogenetics is based on fake principles and methodology.
    You are lucky that Ancient Greeks were heavily J2a and G2a, so we cannot distinguish them with the Anatolian lines. Unfortunately not all have that luck.

    Either way neither of our opinion is fully fact until we have ancient genomes from Iron Age Pontus. So leave it as that.
    Last edited by ihype02; 11-12-21 at 00:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    You are lucky that Ancient Greeks were heavily J2a and G2a, so we cannot distinguish them with the Anatolian lines. Unfortunately not that all have that luck.

    Either way neither of our opinion is fully fact until we have ancient genomes from Iron Age Pontus. So leave it as that.

    There's nothing "lucky" about that because ancient Greeks were an Anatolian derived civilization and Ionic Greeks were actually based in Anatolia + Athens. So the only people trying to separate them from Asia Minor, or Anatolia if you like, are ignoramuses spin doctors like you and your ilk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekas View Post
    There's nothing "lucky" about that because ancient Greeks were an Anatolian derived civilization and Ionic Greeks were actually based in Anatolia + Athens. So the only people trying to separate them from Asia Minor, or Anatolia if you like, are ignoramuses spin doctors like you and your ilk.
    You don't get what I was saying.
    Hey watch your tongue, it's not my fault your ancestors were Ottoman Laz dhimmis that spoke Greek bilingually.

    Adjarian, H; "Étude sur la langue Laze"; Mémoires de la Société de linguistique de Paris, vol.X; Paris, 1899; page 145:

    "The Christian Lazes depend on the Greek patriarchate of Constantinople; they speak Greek and consider themselves Greek. However, we recognize them by their accent. They occupy the western part of Lazistan, from Platana in the east to Trebizonde, and in the south of Trebizonde to Gumusxana. The main cities where we meet them are Platana, Trebizonde and Gumusxana."

    Where did Christian Lazes go? Were they killed off?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    You don't get what I was saying.
    Hey watch your tongue, it's not my fault your ancestors were Ottoman Laz dhimmis that spoke Greek bilingually.

    Adjarian, H; "Étude sur la langue Laze"; Mémoires de la Société de linguistique de Paris, vol.X; Paris, 1899; page 145:

    "The Christian Lazes depend on the Greek patriarchate of Constantinople; they speak Greek and consider themselves Greek. However, we recognize them by their accent. They occupy the western part of Lazistan, from Platana in the east to Trebizonde, and in the south of Trebizonde to Gumusxana. The main cities where we meet them are Platana, Trebizonde and Gumusxana."

    Lazes and Greeks lived together and had children for 3000 years, you dork, you think it's offensive to Pontics to be called Lazes? Like I said, ignoramus, but I understand, if I was from the West Balkans, I'd also have a complex.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekas View Post
    Lazes and Greeks lived together and had children for 3000 years, you dork, you think it's offensive to Pontics to be called Lazes? Like I said, ignoramus, but I understand, if I was from the West Balkans, I'd also have a complex.
    No it would not be offensive for me either. Shalom.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Using a very distant northeastern source and Middle Bronze Age sample from Balkans. 90% native, I'll take it.
    Target: Albanian
    Distance: 1.8596% / 0.01859614
    47.8 GRC_Logkas_MBA
    41.2 BGR_IA
    11.0 Russian_Leshukonsky
    Why is this model not sufficient to you?

    Are you sure you aren't being a romanticist?

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post635311

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    Maybe Albanians really are 42.5% Levantine.

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    ^^Sarcasm btw, obviously I don't actually believe that. But I find it hypocritical that you will "take" the modeling for your people that suits your preferences. Yet Southern Italians are "romanticists" for repeating what geneticists speculate about Anatolian_N/CHG in the EBA (the same one that was shown to be within Albanians in Raveane et al. 2018)? Did you really think I was going to let this double-standard go un-rebuked?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^Sarcasm btw, obviously I don't actually believe that. But I find it hypocritical that you will "take" the modeling for your people that suits your preferences. Yet Southern Italians are "romanticists" for repeating what geneticists speculate about Anatolian_N/CHG in the EBA (the same one that was shown to be within Albanians in Raveane et al. 2018)? Did you really think I was going to let this double-standard go un-rebuked?
    I used to believe that Southern Italians were Mycenaean-like before the Greek colonization even started, but the leaked samples does not show it so I changed my mind. Sure they had regional differences but still it turned out to be wrong. I am not sure how did this 33% EBA Anatolian and native population in Southern Italy remained unmolested till 300BC, but you are entitled to your opinion.

    Even if for example Ancient Greeks replaced the entire population of Southern Italy (they were probably below 50% when you count all provinces together but still) you still need a more eastern source to model Southern Italians. And I find hard to believe that Native Italians were more eastern than Ancient Greeks genetically.

    Of course the percentages are arguable, ~50% East Med input and later 20% Germanic input in Tuscany is beyond point too high.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bekas View Post
    The run with the Armenian sample in the Reich dataset has a big standard-error, so it's not a very good result, I told you in my original post. The Armenians have too much Steppe to transform into Pontic Greeks all of the sudden. Where did all that Steppe admixture go? And where did all that Armenian R1b disappear, it's their dominant marker, Pontic Greeks barely have any R1b. It's a nonsensical argument.

    Also, I used your preferred method of analysis, and even your G25 corroborates my above results, so really, what are you on about, dude?
    Do you know how much E-V13 there is in Pontians? I believe it is close to 10%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Do you know how much E-V13 there is in Pontians? I believe it is close to 10%.
    I know one Pontic Greek who was E-V13, but his ancestor was a Christian Albanian (not an Arvanite) that was transplanted to Treizbond from the Turks (a drop in ocean).
    His genetic profile was essentially like other Pontians. I searched it but I cannot seem to find it anymore, it was in Anthrogenica.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Do you know how much E-V13 there is in Pontians? I believe it is close to 10%.

    There's 17 E1b (2.2%) and 46 R1b (6.1%) in the FTDNA project, make of it what you will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I used to believe that Southern Italians were Mycenaean-like before the Greek colonization even started, but the leaked samples does not show it so I changed my mind. Sure they had regional differences but still it turned out to be wrong. I am not sure how did this 33% EBA Anatolian and native population in Southern Italy remained unmolested till 300BC, but you are entitled to your opinion.

    Even if for example Ancient Greeks replaced the entire population of Southern Italy (they were probably below 50% when you count all provinces together but still) you still need a more eastern source to model Southern Italians. And I find hard to believe that Native Italians were more eastern than Ancient Greeks genetically.

    Of course the percentages are arguable, ~50% East Med input and later 20% Germanic input in Tuscany is beyond point too high.
    So the so-called leaked samples (where? and by who?) negate the entire phenomenon of CHG in the EBA, despite the fact that multiple papers from various institution have verified the existence of it? Also, people become "romanticist" when you yourself no longer believe in that very thing, which is supported by academics? You make no sense.

    Also, it is not that they were "unmolested" rather, they hypothesis is that subsequent migrations re-enforced it.

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    ^^Again, Daunians are not "Native" to Puglia, they only arrive in the LBA. Furthermore, the "recent admixture" with CHG-richer people among the Daunians is possibly them mixing with the population at large.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    ^^Again, Daunians are not "Native" to Puglia, they only arrive in the LBA. Furthermore, the "recent admixture" with CHG-richer people among the Daunians is possibly them mixing with the population at large.
    What is the current consensus on this CHG component? Seems for some samples it predates IE peoples, and might have come as a package with EEF? or at some point after EEF.

    Have not looked into it. Anything to be taken from the last few papers regarding this particular CHG input?
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    The issue in the Mediterranean is not the presence of Iranian-/CHG-like admixture not from the steppe, but percentages.
    It postdates the main EEF movements in any case.

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    There are some new hints I have recognized about Y-Dna in Balkans and Italy. (In many regions.)
    But until more papers come up I wont vocalize myself because it seems that it bothers many people here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    There are some new hints I have recognized about Y-Dna in Balkans and Italy. (In many regions.)
    But until more papers come up I wont vocalize myself because it seems that it bothers many people here.
    I, for one, won't be bothered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    What is the current consensus on this CHG component? Seems for some samples it predates IE peoples, and might have come as a package with EEF? or at some point after EEF.

    Have not looked into it. Anything to be taken from the last few papers regarding this particular CHG input?
    Each of these papers indicate a CHG-like movement into the Mediterranean, though I'm sure you're familiar with most of them already:

    The spread of steppe and Iranian-related ancestry in the islands of the western Mediterranean

    Steppe-pastoralist-related ancestry reached Central Europe by at least 2500 bc, whereas Iranian farmer-related ancestry was present in Aegean Europe by at least 1900 bc. However, the spread of these ancestries into the western Mediterranean, where they have contributed to many populations that live today, remains poorly understood. Here, we generated genome-wide ancient-DNA data from the Balearic Islands, Sicily and Sardinia, increasing the number of individuals with reported data from 5 to 66. The oldest individual from the Balearic Islands (~2400 bc) carried ancestry from steppe pastoralists that probably derived from west-to-east migration from Iberia, although two later Balearic individuals had less ancestry from steppe pastoralists. In Sicily, steppe pastoralist ancestry arrived by ~2200 bc, in part from Iberia; Iranian-related ancestry arrived by the mid-second millennium bc, contemporary to its previously documented spread to the Aegean; and there was large-scale population replacement after the Bronze Age. In Sardinia, nearly all ancestry derived from the island’s early farmers until the first millennium bc, with the exception of an outlier from the third millennium bc, who had primarily North African ancestry and who—along with an approximately contemporary Iberian—documents widespread Africa-to-Europe gene flow in the Chalcolithic. Major immigration into Sardinia began in the first millennium bc and, at present, no more than 56–62% of Sardinian ancestry is from its first farmers. This value is lower than previous estimates, highlighting that Sardinia, similar to every other region in Europe, has been a stage for major movement and mixtures of people.




    Fernandes et al. 2020
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-020-1102-0


    Genomic transformation and social organization during the Copper Age–Bronze Age transition in southern Iberia

    To explore the genetic turnover and the contribution of the local groups to the newly formed BA genetic profile in Iberia, we systematically tested a series of qpAdm models. We started by using the distal ancestry sources Anatolia_N, WHG, GoyetQ2, Yamnaya_Samara, and Iran_N to model the genetic ancestry components of Iberian BA groups (table S2.10 and fig. S6). We found that the local traces of GoyetQ2, a characteristic but variable component of southern Iberia CA individuals, were no longer detectable, suggesting a dissolution of geographic substructure in BA Iberia with respect to HG ancestry. We explain this by the spread of steppe-related ancestry from North to South (7) that also contributed northern and central Iberian ancestry to the South, diluting the subtle GoyetQ2 signal to a level beyond the limits of detection (text S8). By using the same qpAdm model, we also observed that Almoloya_Argar_Early, Almoloya_Argar_Late, SE_CabezoRedondo_BA, and Bastida_Argar cannot be modeled with Yamnaya_Samara as a single source but find better support with a combination of Iran_N and Yamnaya_Samara, however, without reaching P values ≥0.05 in Almoloya_Argar_Early and Late and SE_CabezoRedondo_BA (table S2.10 and fig. S6). These El Argar groups (Almoloya and Bastida) are also slightly shifted to the right on the PC1 axis, in the direction of Mediterranean BA groups with excess Iran_N-like ancestry, such as “Minoans,” who only carry Iran_N-like ancestry but not steppe-related ancestry, or “Mycenaeans,” who carry a mix of both (71), and that has also been shown for some BA individuals from Sicily_MBA (51) and for Sardinians here (Fig. 3A).

    Villalba-Mouco et al. 2021
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7038
    Population structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient and archaic ancestries in Southern Europe

    Raveane et al. 2019

    Although the details of the origins of this signature are still uncharacterized, it may have been present as early as the Bronze Age in Southern Italy (data file S4). The very low presence of CHG signatures in Sardinia and in older Italian samples (Remedello and Iceman), but its occurrence in modern-day Southern Italians, might be explained by different scenarios not mutually exclusive: (i) population structure among early foraging groups across Italy, reflecting different affinities to CHG; (ii) the presence in Italy of different Neolithic contributions, characterized by a different proportion of CHG-related ancestry; (iii) the combination of a post-Neolithic, prehistoric CHG-enriched contribution with a previous AN-related Neolithic layer; and (iv) a substantial historical contribution from Southeastern Europe across the whole of Southern Italy...

    No major structure has been highlighted so far in pre-Neolithic Italian samples (6). An arrival of the CHG-related component in Southern Italy from the Southern part of the Balkan Peninsula, including the Peloponnese, is compatible with the identification of genetic corridors linking the two regions (Fig. 1E) (9) and the presence of Southern European ancient signatures in Italy (Fig. 2). The temporal appearance of CHG signatures in Anatolia and Southern East Europe in the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age suggests its relevance for post-Neolithic contributions (33). Our results suggest contributions from ancestries additional to the three “canonical” ones considered so far in the literature (WHG, AN, and SBA). The differential distribution of these ancestries contributed to the differentiation observed between Northern and Southern Italian clusters. Additional analyses of aDNA samples from around this time in Italy are expected to clarify what ancient scenario might best support the structure related to ancient ancestry composition presented here.

    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aaw3492
    Genetic Origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans

    The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We assembled genome-wide data from nineteen ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. We show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1,2 , and most of the remainder from ancient populations like those of the Caucasus3
    and Iran4,5 . However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6–8 , introduced via a proximal source related to either the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1,6,9 or Armenia4,9. Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.

    Lazaridis et al. 2017
    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310
    Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

    This shows there was a trickle of this kind of ancestry in Italy, even in the center as early as the neolithic.

    Similar to early farmers from other parts of Europe, Neolithic individuals from central Italy project near Anatolian farmers in PCA (13, 14, 1719) (Fig. 2A). However, ADMIXTURE reveals that, in addition to ancestry from northwestern Anatolia farmers, all of the Neolithic individuals that we studied carry a small amount of another component that is found at high levels in Neolithic Iranian farmers and Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) (Fig. 2B and fig. S9). This contrasts with contemporaneous central European and Iberian populations who carry farmer ancestry predominantly from northwestern Anatolia (fig. S12). Furthermore, qpAdm modeling suggests that Neolithic Italian farmers can be modeled as a two-way mixture of ~5% local hunter-gatherer ancestry and ~95% ancestry of Neolithic farmers from central Anatolia or northern Greece (table S7), who also carry additional CHG (or Neolithic Iranian) ancestry (fig. S12) (14). These findings point to different or additional source populations involved in the Neolithic transition in Italy compared to central and western Europe.Antonio et al. 2019
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aay6826
    The genetic origin of Daunians and the Pan-Mediterranean southern Italian Iron Age context

    Aneli et al. 2021

    Amhara_NAF can be used as a proxy for the Non-African component in modern Ethiopian individuals that was tentatively linked to the Sea People, a Bronze Age nomadic seafaring population22, 24. Together with Minoans and Roman Republicans, this component can be broadly modelled as a Pan-Mediterranean population (constituted by AN and IN/CHG components) with the addition of WHG and Steppe-related ancestry in Roman Republicans. When modelled also with Minoans and Amhara_NAF, which roughly proxies the same ancestral signature, the majority of the samples required an additional CHG/IN contribution (two-way admixtures in Figure S5B,C) as well as Steppe-related and WHG.

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....454498v1.full

    Ultimately, this is summed up well in Sarno et al. 2021

    Previous surveys on the ancient genetic legacy of Southern Italy pointed to genetic contributions linking Southern Italy and Mediterranean Greek islands with Anatolia and the Caucasus tracing back to migratory events occurred during the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, in which the Mediterranean served as a preferential crossroad3,13,27. In particular, while the expansion of Anatolian Neolithic farmers significantly impacted all the Peninsula, differential Bronze-Age contributions were observed for Southern Italy with respect to Northern Italian populations. Bronze Age influences in the gene pool of Southern Italians have been in fact associated to a non-steppe Caucasian-related ancestry carried along the Mediterranean shores at the same time, but independently from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe migrations that occurred through Continental Europe. Consistently with this viewpoint, genetic analyses performed by comparing our modern populations with the main ancient ancestral sources have displayed the clustering of analysed Southern Italian groups with Neolithic and Bronze Age samples from Anatolian, Aegean Minoan and Mycenaean populations, as opposed to the affinity of Northern Italy with Late-Neolithic and Bronze-Age samples from continental Europe (Suppl. Figure S8). Accordingly, both f3-outgroup, qpGraph and qpAdmixture analyses (Fig. 4, Suppl. Figure S9, Suppl. Figure S10) revealed influences related to a Steppe ancestry in the Northern Italian groups, instead paralleled in Southern Italy by an analogous Caucasian-related contribution from a non-Steppe CHG/Iran_N source. Importantly, the same ancestral sources are equally shared both by the present-day “open” (i.e. not-isolated) Southern Italian populations of Benevento, Castrovillari and Catanzaro, as well as by the geographically and linguistically-isolated communities of the Aspromonte mountain area (Fig. 4, Suppl. Table S8), thus signaling a common genetic background that possibly predates the linguistic hypotheses originally suggested about the times of formation of the Greco language in Southern Italy. Accordingly, we hypothesize that the genetic continuity between Southern Italian populations and the other Mediterranean groups may date back to these Neolithic and post-Neolithic events and may have been subsequently maintained and in some cases reinforced by continuous and overlapping gene flows following similar paths of diffusion and interaction between populations, among which the migrations of Greek-speaking people during the classical era (Magna Graecia) and/or in Byzantine and subsequent times. Therefore, the observed patterns could be linked to a tendency to mobility that has always characterized these populations, resulting in continuous cultural and genetic exchanges over time.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-82591-9
    I remember being lectured by someone at anthrogenica about Sarno et al. 2017 (the one that used hypothetical simulated population based on modern DNA...) . Well it looks like when Sarno considered ancient DNA, and observed the developments of recent papers, she and I are in lock-steppe with this hypothesis.

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    Advisor Jovialis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    There are some new hints I have recognized about Y-Dna in Balkans and Italy. (In many regions.)
    But until more papers come up I wont vocalize myself because it seems that it bothers many people here.
    Well, I think enough papers have come out for me to make my point legitimate.

    The only thing that bothers me, is that you have preference for modeling, because it makes you look more historically native to Albania (who knows, you could even be in the ball park of being right about that, idk). Yet you want to criticize others for what you perceive as the very thing you are doing yourself.



    Given all of the examples I have shown above in my post to Archetype0ne, from very recent papers, why is my modeling here less legitimate than yours?

    I don't think it is accurate to say that there was no subsequent historical event that impacted Southern Italian genetics, since the Bronze age. But as Sarno et al. 2021 hypothesizes, there seem to indeed be genetic continuity since then, which was re-enforced by subsequent migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carnimirie View Post
    Thanks for the info Pax. Surprised Calabria is overlooked, I feel the Oenotrians and/or the populous Greek colonies would solve the puzzle
    Not only Calabria is overlooked, but much of Italy. For many different reasons. However, there will surely be analysis of samples from Calabria. So I have been told. I don't know the timeline.

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