The genetic origin of Daunians

[ihype02]

When you attack an ethnic group like Pontic Greeks that have nothing to do with you or your ilk, you should be ready to defend your nonsense, or risk getting exposed like you just have.
You're welcome.

Aww you did a great job defending your case.

Here is an "attack" to the Turks.

[ihype02]

Using a very distant northeastern source and Middle Bronze Age sample from Balkans. 90% native, I'll take it.

Target: Albanian Distance: 1.8596% / 0.01859614
47.8	GRC_Logkas_MBA
41.2	BGR_IA
11.0	Russian_Leshukonsky

[Bekas]

Using a very distant northeastern source and Middle Bronze Age sample from Balkans. 90% native, I'll take it.

Target: Albanian Distance: 1.8596% / 0.01859614
47.8	GRC_Logkas_MBA
41.2	BGR_IA
11.0	Russian_Leshukonsky

Your model fails qpAdm (100%-400% std. errors), even if I just use Logkas and BGR_IA without the Russian reference (20% std. errors). It goes to show that you can mix and match whatever you want in that smartPCA and get the result you want.

Check my right pops, if you think I am failing it on purpose, and tell me what to swap but I don't think you can make it work but of course I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

You can see all your so called expertise on archeogenetics is based on fake principles and methodology.

qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1745086563
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
Albanian.DG
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG
Russian.DG
Bulgaria_IA

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 11 chisq: 7.503 tail: 0.756986369 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -7.503 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.721 1.351
China_Tianyuan 1.077 2.082
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.135 0.406
Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.397 0.634
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.396 0.033
Turkey_N_published -1.850 0.561
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.421 -0.508
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.528 -0.062
Papuan.DG 0.658 0.361
Israel_Natufian_published -1.309 0.997
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.468 0.459
ONG.SG 0.934 -0.832
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.296 -1.915
A:
scale 1063.244 3571.596
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG -0.092 -0.724
Russian.DG 1.541 0.264
Bulgaria_IA -0.785 1.551


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 3 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 7.503 taildiff: 0.756986369
B:
scale 2249.860 662.058 1051.142
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.023 0.936 0.312
China_Tianyuan -1.366 1.114 -0.031
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.067 -0.028 0.426
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.139 -0.250 0.738
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.115 -0.440 0.177
Turkey_N_published 0.844 -1.581 2.026
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.223 1.641 -0.909
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.086 -0.014 1.234
Papuan.DG 0.071 0.759 -0.215
Israel_Natufian_published 0.619 -1.038 1.880
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.503 1.690 -0.472
ONG.SG 0.098 0.869 -1.172
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.972 0.407 -0.718
A:
scale 1.732 1.732 1.732
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG 1.732 0.000 0.000
Russian.DG 0.000 1.732 0.000
Bulgaria_IA 0.000 0.000 1.732


best coefficients: 0.590 0.162 0.248
totmean: 0.590 0.162 0.248
boot mean: 0.512 0.185 0.303
std. errors: 4.713 1.366 3.359

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
22215646 -6400915 -15814731
-6400915 1865799 4535115
-15814731 4535115 11279616


summ: Albanian.DG 3 0.756986 0.512 0.185 0.303 22215646 -6400915 -15814731 1865799 4535115 ...
11279616

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
000 0 11 7.503 0.756986 0.590 0.162 0.248
001 1 12 8.778 0.721776 0.956 0.044 0.000
010 1 12 9.018 0.701406 0.973 0.000 0.027
100 1 12 10.316 0.58825 0.000 0.378 0.622
011 2 13 8.970 0.775195 1.000 0.000 0.000
101 2 13 146.907 8.64338e-25 0.000 1.000 0.000
110 2 13 46.517 1.16526e-05 0.000 0.000 1.000
best pat: 000 0.756986 - -
best pat: 001 0.721776 chi(nested): 1.275 p-value for nested model: 0.258906
best pat: 011 0.775195 chi(nested): 0.192 p-value for nested model: 0.661043

coeffs: 0.590 0.162 0.248

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000010 0.020102
details: Russian.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.001414 2.828730
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000297 0.494272
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000308 Z: 0.672052

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG China_Tianyuan -0.000607 -1.143472
details: Russian.DG China_Tianyuan 0.001683 3.113433
details: Bulgaria_IA China_Tianyuan -0.000029 -0.044130
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: -0.000094 Z: -0.190328

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000030 0.088520
details: Russian.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.000043 -0.118470
details: Bulgaria_IA Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000405 0.880748
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000111 Z: 0.350062

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000062 0.154182
details: Russian.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.000377 -0.933407
details: Bulgaria_IA Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000702 1.466881
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.000150 Z: 0.406190

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000051 -0.092787
details: Russian.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000665 -1.270056
details: Bulgaria_IA Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.000168 0.258575
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000096 Z: -0.192390

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Turkey_N_published 0.000375 0.900532
details: Russian.DG Turkey_N_published -0.002388 -5.897841
details: Bulgaria_IA Turkey_N_published 0.001927 3.898686
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: 0.000313 Z: 0.826365

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000544 0.895076
details: Russian.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.002479 4.213458
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.000865 -1.197446
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000507 Z: 0.918992

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000927 1.664804
details: Russian.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG -0.000020 -0.035723
details: Bulgaria_IA Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.001174 1.743844
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: 0.000835 Z: 1.656602

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Papuan.DG 0.000031 0.074762
details: Russian.DG Papuan.DG 0.001147 2.724199
details: Bulgaria_IA Papuan.DG -0.000205 -0.379783
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000153 Z: 0.394858

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.000275 0.439941
details: Russian.DG Israel_Natufian_published -0.001568 -2.676275
details: Bulgaria_IA Israel_Natufian_published 0.001789 2.317213
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.000352 Z: 0.624305

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000224 0.501985
details: Russian.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.002553 5.711301
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000449 -0.838048
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000433 Z: 1.079253

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG ONG.SG 0.000043 0.103717
details: Russian.DG ONG.SG 0.001313 3.120722
details: Bulgaria_IA ONG.SG -0.001115 -2.179602
dscore: ONG.SG f4: -0.000038 Z: -0.100956

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.000876 1.366422
details: Russian.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.000614 1.044836
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.000683 -0.917393
dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: 0.000447 Z: 0.804824

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.672
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan -0.190
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.350
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.406
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.192
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published 0.826
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.919
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.657
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 0.395
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.624
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.079
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG -0.101
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.805
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -0.764
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG -0.378
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N -0.340
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.717
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published 0.010
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.336
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.927
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG -0.354
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.068
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.267
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.768
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.215
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.372
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.496
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.004
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published 0.786
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.018
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.531
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 0.523
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published 0.679
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.117
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG 0.122
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.776
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.082
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.366
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published 0.431
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.647
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.252
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG 0.088
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.395
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.659
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -0.320
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.533
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.554
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published 0.457
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.692
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.446
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG 0.009
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.367
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.688
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.468
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.531
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published 0.845
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.951
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.775
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 0.482
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.704
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.043
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG 0.113
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.907
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.357
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.054
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -0.383
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published 0.078
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.273
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -0.859
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.251
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.531
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.662
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.225
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.134
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -1.037
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.090
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -1.272
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.744
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.757
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG -1.673
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.591
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.340
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.739
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.558
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.501
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.133
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -0.666
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.133
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -1.304
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.023
gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.846

##end of qpAdm: 7.106 seconds cpu 1.114 Mbytes in use


qpAdm: parameter file: parqpadm.txt
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
fstatsname: fstatsa.txt
popleft: left.txt
popright: right.txt
details: YES
## qpAdm version: 1520
seed: 1751156740
*** recommended that inbreed be explicitly set ***
inbreed set NO

left pops:
Albanian.DG
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG
Bulgaria_IA

right pops:
Mbuti.DG
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG
China_Tianyuan
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG
Iran_GanjDareh_N
Georgia_Kotias.SG
Turkey_N_published
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG
Papuan.DG
Israel_Natufian_published
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG
ONG.SG
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published

codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 1 dof: 12 chisq: 8.930 tail: 0.708937603 dofdiff: 14 chisqdiff: -8.930 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.460
China_Tianyuan 0.601
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.425
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.775
Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.294
Turkey_N_published 1.911
Russia_MA1_HG.SG -1.128
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.751
Papuan.DG -0.142
Israel_Natufian_published 1.723
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.565
ONG.SG -1.157
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -1.193
A:
scale 1595.301
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG -0.047
Bulgaria_IA 1.413


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 12 chisqdiff: 8.930 taildiff: 0.708937603
B:
scale 2249.860 1051.142
Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.023 0.312
China_Tianyuan -1.366 -0.031
Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.067 0.426
Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.139 0.738
Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.115 0.177
Turkey_N_published 0.844 2.026
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.223 -0.909
Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.086 1.234
Papuan.DG 0.071 -0.215
Israel_Natufian_published 0.619 1.880
Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.503 -0.472
ONG.SG 0.098 -1.172
Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.972 -0.718
A:
scale 1.414 1.414
Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG 1.414 0.000
Bulgaria_IA 0.000 1.414


best coefficients: 0.968 0.032
totmean: 0.968 0.032
boot mean: 0.986 0.014
std. errors: 0.204 0.204

error covariance (* 1,000,000)
41467 -41467
-41467 41467


summ: Albanian.DG 2 0.708938 0.986 0.014 41467 -41467 41467

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
00 0 12 8.930 0.708938 0.968 0.032
01 1 13 8.980 0.774449 1.000 0.000
10 1 13 46.582 1.13634e-05 0.000 1.000
best pat: 00 0.708938 - -
best pat: 01 0.774449 chi(nested): 0.051 p-value for nested model: 0.822165

coeffs: 0.968 0.032

## dscore:: f_4(Base, Fit, Rbase, right2)
## genstat:: f_4(Base, Fit, right1, right2)

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000010 0.020102
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.000297 0.494272
dscore: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG f4: 0.000019 Z: 0.038859

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG China_Tianyuan -0.000607 -1.143472
details: Bulgaria_IA China_Tianyuan -0.000029 -0.044130
dscore: China_Tianyuan f4: -0.000589 Z: -1.119215

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000030 0.088520
details: Bulgaria_IA Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.000405 0.880748
dscore: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG f4: 0.000042 Z: 0.125418

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000062 0.154182
details: Bulgaria_IA Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.000702 1.466881
dscore: Iran_GanjDareh_N f4: 0.000082 Z: 0.207639

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.000051 -0.092787
details: Bulgaria_IA Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.000168 0.258575
dscore: Georgia_Kotias.SG f4: -0.000044 Z: -0.080889

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Turkey_N_published 0.000375 0.900532
details: Bulgaria_IA Turkey_N_published 0.001927 3.898686
dscore: Turkey_N_published f4: 0.000425 Z: 1.031729

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000544 0.895076
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.000865 -1.197446
dscore: Russia_MA1_HG.SG f4: 0.000498 Z: 0.829842

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.000927 1.664804
details: Bulgaria_IA Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.001174 1.743844
dscore: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG f4: 0.000935 Z: 1.699930

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Papuan.DG 0.000031 0.074762
details: Bulgaria_IA Papuan.DG -0.000205 -0.379783
dscore: Papuan.DG f4: 0.000024 Z: 0.057306

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.000275 0.439941
details: Bulgaria_IA Israel_Natufian_published 0.001789 2.317213
dscore: Israel_Natufian_published f4: 0.000324 Z: 0.523733

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.000224 0.501985
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.000449 -0.838048
dscore: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG f4: 0.000202 Z: 0.459198

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG ONG.SG 0.000043 0.103717
details: Bulgaria_IA ONG.SG -0.001115 -2.179602
dscore: ONG.SG f4: 0.000006 Z: 0.015071

details: Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.000876 1.366422
details: Bulgaria_IA Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.000683 -0.917393
dscore: Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published f4: 0.000826 Z: 1.307974

gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG 0.039
gendstat: Mbuti.DG China_Tianyuan -1.119
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.125
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.208
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.081
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Turkey_N_published 1.032
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.830
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.700
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Papuan.DG 0.057
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.524
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.459
gendstat: Mbuti.DG ONG.SG 0.015
gendstat: Mbuti.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.308
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG China_Tianyuan -1.067
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 0.041
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.126
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.104
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Turkey_N_published 0.766
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.746
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.514
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Papuan.DG 0.010
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.431
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.358
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG ONG.SG -0.027
gendstat: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.136
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Goyet_Neanderthal.SG 1.074
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Iran_GanjDareh_N 1.253
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Kotias.SG 0.841
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Turkey_N_published 1.812
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1.658
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 2.299
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Papuan.DG 1.203
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Israel_Natufian_published 1.296
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 1.544
gendstat: China_Tianyuan ONG.SG 1.225
gendstat: China_Tianyuan Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.838
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Iran_GanjDareh_N 0.081
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.142
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Turkey_N_published 0.749
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.686
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.428
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Papuan.DG -0.035
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.417
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.302
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG ONG.SG -0.072
gendstat: Goyet_Neanderthal.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.113
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Kotias.SG -0.261
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Turkey_N_published 0.884
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.740
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.633
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Papuan.DG -0.139
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Israel_Natufian_published 0.402
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.267
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N ONG.SG -0.178
gendstat: Iran_GanjDareh_N Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.191
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Turkey_N_published 0.888
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.784
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 1.725
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Papuan.DG 0.122
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Israel_Natufian_published 0.524
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.444
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG ONG.SG 0.092
gendstat: Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.281
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.122
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.946
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Papuan.DG -0.874
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Israel_Natufian_published -0.183
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.463
gendstat: Turkey_N_published ONG.SG -0.941
gendstat: Turkey_N_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.668
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Georgia_Satsurblia.SG 0.652
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Papuan.DG -0.815
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.232
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.493
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG ONG.SG -0.857
gendstat: Russia_MA1_HG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.448
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Papuan.DG -1.577
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Israel_Natufian_published -0.854
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -1.258
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG ONG.SG -1.641
gendstat: Georgia_Satsurblia.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published -0.148
gendstat: Papuan.DG Israel_Natufian_published 0.471
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG 0.442
gendstat: Papuan.DG ONG.SG -0.049
gendstat: Papuan.DG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.225
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG -0.185
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published ONG.SG -0.500
gendstat: Israel_Natufian_published Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.635
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG ONG.SG -0.499
gendstat: Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 0.913
gendstat: ONG.SG Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_published 1.265

##end of qpAdm: 1.994 seconds cpu 0.778 Mbytes in use

[ihype02]

Your model fails qpAdm (100%-400% std. errors), even if I just use Logkas and BGR_IA without the Russian reference (20% std. errors). It goes to show that you can mix and match whatever you want in that smartPCA and get the result you want.

Check my right pops, if you think I am failing it on purpose, and tell me what to swap but I don't think you can make it work but of course I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt.

You can see all your so called expertise on archeogenetics is based on fake principles and methodology.

You are lucky that Ancient Greeks were heavily J2a and G2a, so we cannot distinguish them with the Anatolian lines. Unfortunately not all have that luck.

Either way neither of our opinion is fully fact until we have ancient genomes from Iron Age Pontus. So leave it as that.

[Bekas]

You are lucky that Ancient Greeks were heavily J2a and G2a, so we cannot distinguish them with the Anatolian lines. Unfortunately not that all have that luck.

Either way neither of our opinion is fully fact until we have ancient genomes from Iron Age Pontus. So leave it as that.

There's nothing "lucky" about that because ancient Greeks were an Anatolian derived civilization and Ionic Greeks were actually based in Anatolia + Athens. So the only people trying to separate them from Asia Minor, or Anatolia if you like, are ignoramuses spin doctors like you and your ilk.

[ihype02]

There's nothing "lucky" about that because ancient Greeks were an Anatolian derived civilization and Ionic Greeks were actually based in Anatolia + Athens. So the only people trying to separate them from Asia Minor, or Anatolia if you like, are ignoramuses spin doctors like you and your ilk.

You don't get what I was saying.
Hey watch your tongue, it's not my fault your ancestors were Ottoman Laz dhimmis that spoke Greek bilingually.

Adjarian, H; "Étude sur la langue Laze"; Mémoires de la Société de linguistique de Paris, vol.X; Paris, 1899; page 145:

"The Christian Lazes depend on the Greek patriarchate of Constantinople; they speak Greek and consider themselves Greek. However, we recognize them by their accent. They occupy the western part of Lazistan, from Platana in the east to Trebizonde, and in the south of Trebizonde to Gumusxana. The main cities where we meet them are Platana, Trebizonde and Gumusxana."

Where did Christian Lazes go? Were they killed off?

[Bekas]

You don't get what I was saying.
Hey watch your tongue, it's not my fault your ancestors were Ottoman Laz dhimmis that spoke Greek bilingually.

Adjarian, H; "Étude sur la langue Laze"; Mémoires de la Société de linguistique de Paris, vol.X; Paris, 1899; page 145:

"The Christian Lazes depend on the Greek patriarchate of Constantinople; they speak Greek and consider themselves Greek. However, we recognize them by their accent. They occupy the western part of Lazistan, from Platana in the east to Trebizonde, and in the south of Trebizonde to Gumusxana. The main cities where we meet them are Platana, Trebizonde and Gumusxana."

Lazes and Greeks lived together and had children for 3000 years, you dork, you think it's offensive to Pontics to be called Lazes? Like I said, ignoramus, but I understand, if I was from the West Balkans, I'd also have a complex.

[ihype02]

Lazes and Greeks lived together and had children for 3000 years, you dork, you think it's offensive to Pontics to be called Lazes? Like I said, ignoramus, but I understand, if I was from the West Balkans, I'd also have a complex.

No it would not be offensive for me either. Shalom.

[Jovialis]

Using a very distant northeastern source and Middle Bronze Age sample from Balkans. 90% native, I'll take it.

Target: Albanian Distance: 1.8596% / 0.01859614
47.8	GRC_Logkas_MBA
41.2	BGR_IA
11.0	Russian_Leshukonsky

Why is this model not sufficient to you?

Are you sure you aren't being a romanticist?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post635311

[Jovialis]

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post635311

[Jovialis]

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post635311

Maybe Albanians really are 42.5% Levantine.

[Jovialis]

^^Sarcasm btw, obviously I don't actually believe that. But I find it hypocritical that you will "take" the modeling for your people that suits your preferences. Yet Southern Italians are "romanticists" for repeating what geneticists speculate about Anatolian_N/CHG in the EBA (the same one that was shown to be within Albanians in Raveane et al. 2018)? Did you really think I was going to let this double-standard go un-rebuked?

[ihype02]

^^Sarcasm btw, obviously I don't actually believe that. But I find it hypocritical that you will "take" the modeling for your people that suits your preferences. Yet Southern Italians are "romanticists" for repeating what geneticists speculate about Anatolian_N/CHG in the EBA (the same one that was shown to be within Albanians in Raveane et al. 2018)? Did you really think I was going to let this double-standard go un-rebuked?

I used to believe that Southern Italians were Mycenaean-like before the Greek colonization even started, but the leaked samples does not show it so I changed my mind. Sure they had regional differences but still it turned out to be wrong. I am not sure how did this 33% EBA Anatolian and native population in Southern Italy remained unmolested till 300BC, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Even if for example Ancient Greeks replaced the entire population of Southern Italy (they were probably below 50% when you count all provinces together but still) you still need a more eastern source to model Southern Italians. And I find hard to believe that Native Italians were more eastern than Ancient Greeks genetically.

Of course the percentages are arguable, ~50% East Med input and later 20% Germanic input in Tuscany is beyond point too high.

[Dianatomia]

The run with the Armenian sample in the Reich dataset has a big standard-error, so it's not a very good result, I told you in my original post. The Armenians have too much Steppe to transform into Pontic Greeks all of the sudden. Where did all that Steppe admixture go? And where did all that Armenian R1b disappear, it's their dominant marker, Pontic Greeks barely have any R1b. It's a nonsensical argument.

Also, I used your preferred method of analysis, and even your G25 corroborates my above results, so really, what are you on about, dude?

Do you know how much E-V13 there is in Pontians? I believe it is close to 10%.

[ihype02]

Do you know how much E-V13 there is in Pontians? I believe it is close to 10%.

I know one Pontic Greek who was E-V13, but his ancestor was a Christian Albanian (not an Arvanite) that was transplanted to Treizbond from the Turks (a drop in ocean).
His genetic profile was essentially like other Pontians. I searched it but I cannot seem to find it anymore, it was in Anthrogenica.

[Bekas]

Do you know how much E-V13 there is in Pontians? I believe it is close to 10%.

There's 17 E1b (2.2%) and 46 R1b (6.1%) in the FTDNA project, make of it what you will.

[Jovialis]

I used to believe that Southern Italians were Mycenaean-like before the Greek colonization even started, but the leaked samples does not show it so I changed my mind. Sure they had regional differences but still it turned out to be wrong. I am not sure how did this 33% EBA Anatolian and native population in Southern Italy remained unmolested till 300BC, but you are entitled to your opinion.

Even if for example Ancient Greeks replaced the entire population of Southern Italy (they were probably below 50% when you count all provinces together but still) you still need a more eastern source to model Southern Italians. And I find hard to believe that Native Italians were more eastern than Ancient Greeks genetically.

Of course the percentages are arguable, ~50% East Med input and later 20% Germanic input in Tuscany is beyond point too high.

So the so-called leaked samples (where? and by who?) negate the entire phenomenon of CHG in the EBA, despite the fact that multiple papers from various institution have verified the existence of it? Also, people become "romanticist" when you yourself no longer believe in that very thing, which is supported by academics? You make no sense.

Also, it is not that they were "unmolested" rather, they hypothesis is that subsequent migrations re-enforced it.

[Jovialis]

^^Again, Daunians are not "Native" to Puglia, they only arrive in the LBA. Furthermore, the "recent admixture" with CHG-richer people among the Daunians is possibly them mixing with the population at large.

[Archetype0ne]

^^Again, Daunians are not "Native" to Puglia, they only arrive in the LBA. Furthermore, the "recent admixture" with CHG-richer people among the Daunians is possibly them mixing with the population at large.

What is the current consensus on this CHG component? Seems for some samples it predates IE peoples, and might have come as a package with EEF? or at some point after EEF.

Have not looked into it. Anything to be taken from the last few papers regarding this particular CHG input?

[Riverman]

The issue in the Mediterranean is not the presence of Iranian-/CHG-like admixture not from the steppe, but percentages.
It postdates the main EEF movements in any case.

[ihype02]

There are some new hints I have recognized about Y-Dna in Balkans and Italy. (In many regions.)
But until more papers come up I wont vocalize myself because it seems that it bothers many people here.

[Carnimirie]

There are some new hints I have recognized about Y-Dna in Balkans and Italy. (In many regions.)
But until more papers come up I wont vocalize myself because it seems that it bothers many people here.

I, for one, won't be bothered.

[Jovialis]

What is the current consensus on this CHG component? Seems for some samples it predates IE peoples, and might have come as a package with EEF? or at some point after EEF.

Have not looked into it. Anything to be taken from the last few papers regarding this particular CHG input?

Each of these papers indicate a CHG-like movement into the Mediterranean, though I'm sure you're familiar with most of them already:

The spread of steppe and Iranian-related ancestry in the islands of the western Mediterranean

Steppe-pastoralist-related ancestry reached Central Europe by at least 2500 bc, whereas Iranian farmer-related ancestry was present in Aegean Europe by at least 1900 bc. However, the spread of these ancestries into the western Mediterranean, where they have contributed to many populations that live today, remains poorly understood. Here, we generated genome-wide ancient-DNA data from the Balearic Islands, Sicily and Sardinia, increasing the number of individuals with reported data from 5 to 66. The oldest individual from the Balearic Islands (~2400 bc) carried ancestry from steppe pastoralists that probably derived from west-to-east migration from Iberia, although two later Balearic individuals had less ancestry from steppe pastoralists. In Sicily, steppe pastoralist ancestry arrived by ~2200 bc, in part from Iberia; Iranian-related ancestry arrived by the mid-second millennium bc, contemporary to its previously documented spread to the Aegean; and there was large-scale population replacement after the Bronze Age. In Sardinia, nearly all ancestry derived from the island’s early farmers until the first millennium bc, with the exception of an outlier from the third millennium bc, who had primarily North African ancestry and who—along with an approximately contemporary Iberian—documents widespread Africa-to-Europe gene flow in the Chalcolithic. Major immigration into Sardinia began in the first millennium bc and, at present, no more than 56–62% of Sardinian ancestry is from its first farmers. This value is lower than previous estimates, highlighting that Sardinia, similar to every other region in Europe, has been a stage for major movement and mixtures of people.




Fernandes et al. 2020
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41559-020-1102-0

Genomic transformation and social organization during the Copper Age–Bronze Age transition in southern Iberia

To explore the genetic turnover and the contribution of the local groups to the newly formed BA genetic profile in Iberia, we systematically tested a series of qpAdm models. We started by using the distal ancestry sources Anatolia_N, WHG, GoyetQ2, Yamnaya_Samara, and Iran_N to model the genetic ancestry components of Iberian BA groups (table S2.10 and fig. S6). We found that the local traces of GoyetQ2, a characteristic but variable component of southern Iberia CA individuals, were no longer detectable, suggesting a dissolution of geographic substructure in BA Iberia with respect to HG ancestry. We explain this by the spread of steppe-related ancestry from North to South (7) that also contributed northern and central Iberian ancestry to the South, diluting the subtle GoyetQ2 signal to a level beyond the limits of detection (text S8). By using the same qpAdm model, we also observed that Almoloya_Argar_Early, Almoloya_Argar_Late, SE_CabezoRedondo_BA, and Bastida_Argar cannot be modeled with Yamnaya_Samara as a single source but find better support with a combination of Iran_N and Yamnaya_Samara, however, without reaching P values ≥0.05 in Almoloya_Argar_Early and Late and SE_CabezoRedondo_BA (table S2.10 and fig. S6). These El Argar groups (Almoloya and Bastida) are also slightly shifted to the right on the PC1 axis, in the direction of Mediterranean BA groups with excess Iran_N-like ancestry, such as “Minoans,” who only carry Iran_N-like ancestry but not steppe-related ancestry, or “Mycenaeans,” who carry a mix of both (71), and that has also been shown for some BA individuals from Sicily_MBA (51) and for Sardinians here (Fig. 3A).

Villalba-Mouco et al. 2021
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7038

Population structure of modern-day Italians reveals patterns of ancient and archaic ancestries in Southern Europe

Raveane et al. 2019

Although the details of the origins of this signature are still uncharacterized, it may have been present as early as the Bronze Age in Southern Italy (data file S4). The very low presence of CHG signatures in Sardinia and in older Italian samples (Remedello and Iceman), but its occurrence in modern-day Southern Italians, might be explained by different scenarios not mutually exclusive: (i) population structure among early foraging groups across Italy, reflecting different affinities to CHG; (ii) the presence in Italy of different Neolithic contributions, characterized by a different proportion of CHG-related ancestry; (iii) the combination of a post-Neolithic, prehistoric CHG-enriched contribution with a previous AN-related Neolithic layer; and (iv) a substantial historical contribution from Southeastern Europe across the whole of Southern Italy...

No major structure has been highlighted so far in pre-Neolithic Italian samples (6). An arrival of the CHG-related component in Southern Italy from the Southern part of the Balkan Peninsula, including the Peloponnese, is compatible with the identification of genetic corridors linking the two regions (Fig. 1E) (9) and the presence of Southern European ancient signatures in Italy (Fig. 2). The temporal appearance of CHG signatures in Anatolia and Southern East Europe in the Late Neolithic/Bronze Age suggests its relevance for post-Neolithic contributions (33). Our results suggest contributions from ancestries additional to the three “canonical” ones considered so far in the literature (WHG, AN, and SBA). The differential distribution of these ancestries contributed to the differentiation observed between Northern and Southern Italian clusters. Additional analyses of aDNA samples from around this time in Italy are expected to clarify what ancient scenario might best support the structure related to ancient ancestry composition presented here.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aaw3492

Genetic Origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans

The origins of the Bronze Age Minoan and Mycenaean cultures have puzzled archaeologists for more than a century. We assembled genome-wide data from nineteen ancient individuals, including Minoans from Crete, Mycenaeans from mainland Greece, and their eastern neighbours from southwestern Anatolia. We show that Minoans and Mycenaeans were genetically similar, having at least three quarters of their ancestry from the first Neolithic farmers of western Anatolia and the Aegean1,2 , and most of the remainder from ancient populations like those of the Caucasus3
and Iran4,5 . However, the Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter-gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia6–8 , introduced via a proximal source related to either the inhabitants of either the Eurasian steppe1,6,9 or Armenia4,9. Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.

Lazaridis et al. 2017
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310

Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

This shows there was a trickle of this kind of ancestry in Italy, even in the center as early as the neolithic.

Similar to early farmers from other parts of Europe, Neolithic individuals from central Italy project near Anatolian farmers in PCA (13, 14, 17–19) (Fig. 2A). However, ADMIXTURE reveals that, in addition to ancestry from northwestern Anatolia farmers, all of the Neolithic individuals that we studied carry a small amount of another component that is found at high levels in Neolithic Iranian farmers and Caucasus hunter-gatherers (CHG) (Fig. 2B and fig. S9). This contrasts with contemporaneous central European and Iberian populations who carry farmer ancestry predominantly from northwestern Anatolia (fig. S12). Furthermore, qpAdm modeling suggests that Neolithic Italian farmers can be modeled as a two-way mixture of ~5% local hunter-gatherer ancestry and ~95% ancestry of Neolithic farmers from central Anatolia or northern Greece (table S7), who also carry additional CHG (or Neolithic Iranian) ancestry (fig. S12) (14). These findings point to different or additional source populations involved in the Neolithic transition in Italy compared to central and western Europe.Antonio et al. 2019
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aay6826

The genetic origin of Daunians and the Pan-Mediterranean southern Italian Iron Age context

Aneli et al. 2021

Amhara_NAF can be used as a proxy for the Non-African component in modern Ethiopian individuals that was tentatively linked to the Sea People, a Bronze Age nomadic seafaring population22, 24. Together with Minoans and Roman Republicans, this component can be broadly modelled as a Pan-Mediterranean population (constituted by AN and IN/CHG components) with the addition of WHG and Steppe-related ancestry in Roman Republicans. When modelled also with Minoans and Amhara_NAF, which roughly proxies the same ancestral signature, the majority of the samples required an additional CHG/IN contribution (two-way admixtures in Figure S5B,C) as well as Steppe-related and WHG.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1....454498v1.full

Ultimately, this is summed up well in Sarno et al. 2021

Previous surveys on the ancient genetic legacy of Southern Italy pointed to genetic contributions linking Southern Italy and Mediterranean Greek islands with Anatolia and the Caucasus tracing back to migratory events occurred during the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, in which the Mediterranean served as a preferential crossroad3,13,27. In particular, while the expansion of Anatolian Neolithic farmers significantly impacted all the Peninsula, differential Bronze-Age contributions were observed for Southern Italy with respect to Northern Italian populations. Bronze Age influences in the gene pool of Southern Italians have been in fact associated to a non-steppe Caucasian-related ancestry carried along the Mediterranean shores at the same time, but independently from the Pontic-Caspian Steppe migrations that occurred through Continental Europe. Consistently with this viewpoint, genetic analyses performed by comparing our modern populations with the main ancient ancestral sources have displayed the clustering of analysed Southern Italian groups with Neolithic and Bronze Age samples from Anatolian, Aegean Minoan and Mycenaean populations, as opposed to the affinity of Northern Italy with Late-Neolithic and Bronze-Age samples from continental Europe (Suppl. Figure S8). Accordingly, both f3-outgroup, qpGraph and qpAdmixture analyses (Fig. 4, Suppl. Figure S9, Suppl. Figure S10) revealed influences related to a Steppe ancestry in the Northern Italian groups, instead paralleled in Southern Italy by an analogous Caucasian-related contribution from a non-Steppe CHG/Iran_N source. Importantly, the same ancestral sources are equally shared both by the present-day “open” (i.e. not-isolated) Southern Italian populations of Benevento, Castrovillari and Catanzaro, as well as by the geographically and linguistically-isolated communities of the Aspromonte mountain area (Fig. 4, Suppl. Table S8), thus signaling a common genetic background that possibly predates the linguistic hypotheses originally suggested about the times of formation of the Greco language in Southern Italy. Accordingly, we hypothesize that the genetic continuity between Southern Italian populations and the other Mediterranean groups may date back to these Neolithic and post-Neolithic events and may have been subsequently maintained and in some cases reinforced by continuous and overlapping gene flows following similar paths of diffusion and interaction between populations, among which the migrations of Greek-speaking people during the classical era (Magna Graecia) and/or in Byzantine and subsequent times. Therefore, the observed patterns could be linked to a tendency to mobility that has always characterized these populations, resulting in continuous cultural and genetic exchanges over time.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-82591-9

I remember being lectured by someone at anthrogenica about Sarno et al. 2017 (the one that used hypothetical simulated population based on modern DNA...) . Well it looks like when Sarno considered ancient DNA, and observed the developments of recent papers, she and I are in lock-steppe with this hypothesis.

[Jovialis]

There are some new hints I have recognized about Y-Dna in Balkans and Italy. (In many regions.)
But until more papers come up I wont vocalize myself because it seems that it bothers many people here.

Well, I think enough papers have come out for me to make my point legitimate.

The only thing that bothers me, is that you have preference for modeling, because it makes you look more historically native to Albania (who knows, you could even be in the ball park of being right about that, idk). Yet you want to criticize others for what you perceive as the very thing you are doing yourself.



Given all of the examples I have shown above in my post to Archetype0ne, from very recent papers, why is my modeling here less legitimate than yours?

I don't think it is accurate to say that there was no subsequent historical event that impacted Southern Italian genetics, since the Bronze age. But as Sarno et al. 2021 hypothesizes, there seem to indeed be genetic continuity since then, which was re-enforced by subsequent migrations.

[Pax Augusta]

Thanks for the info Pax. Surprised Calabria is overlooked, I feel the Oenotrians and/or the populous Greek colonies would solve the puzzle

Not only Calabria is overlooked, but much of Italy. For many different reasons. However, there will surely be analysis of samples from Calabria. So I have been told. I don't know the timeline.