The genetic origin of Daunians

What I find highly interesting is the significant percentages of R1a-M17 in Apulia, Calabria Ionica, and especially Grecia Salentina, and the paucity of J1 even in the south.

For those who may have forgotten, the Valle Borbera is listed as Piemonte, but that's an accident of recent map drawing politics; the villages all speak a Ligurian dialect and even the names of the villages contain the word "Ligure". So, those are isolated Ligurians, who, as you can see, are very high in R1b, especially U-152, but also have 12.9% of G2a-497, and barely any E-V13. That, to me, and contrary to some of the speculation introduced to this board, speaks to a maritime spread of E-V13 in the Ligurians.

As for Tortona/Vorghera, they're in a no man's land between Lombardia, Piemonte and Emilia.

As I've expounded upon before, these mountain communities of the Appennines are pretty similar in genetic make-up, I think, as they are in culture. Cavalli Sforza speculated these were the refugial areas of the Celt-Ligurians. I wish they could be tested against ancient samples from there, if we ever get some, before all the older people with all four grandparents from the area are dead.

Valle Borbera: lots of burly, rather portly men with big, broad, round skulls for the most part, as there are in the Appennines of Emilia.
STEFANO VALLA e MATTEO BURRONE "" Monferrina "" - YouTube

CORO SPONTANEO "" Bella Angiolina "" - YouTube

Very interesting finding about R1a-M17. Isn't that a marker for the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European language populations. Do we know when it arrived in the area?
 
Notice it's not the "Slavic" R1a, of which there's virtually none in Italy. It might be from the Balkans, but prior to the arrival of the Slavs, although I'm not sure how much of that is present in the western Balkans and Greece. The other possibility might be the Vikings/Normans. Even if there weren't enough of them to make a significant change in the people autosomally, the Y dna can hang around.

The yDna differences between Calabria Ionica and Calabria Tirrenica are interesting. To explain it one only need look at the topography of the area. The Aspromonte mountains divide Calabria into halves. Don't we only have academic samples from Calabria Tirrenica?


you are correct the slavic r1a is r1a-m458 extremely low % to non -exist in south italy

good question
but from looking at the calabrian greeks paper :

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-82591-9

in supplemental tables
only 28 greeks from calabria were tested for autosomal anlaysis
and they didn't bother to check for there y haplogroups
which is a shame than we can see if there is overlapp in uniparental signitures
with greeks from salento in apulia:upset:
 
Very interesting finding about R1a-M17. Isn't that a marker for the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European language populations. Do we know when it arrived in the area?

Normans for the most part I guess, but could also have been with Goths.
 
Normans for the most part I guess, but could also have been with Goths.

Those areas are very specific, some stayed under the goths for less than 10 years while centuries under the Byzantines. If it was the Normans I think Sicily would be much higher and that isn't the case
 
My belief is that the results showing +5% Germanic Y-DNA in Southern Italy suffer from sample bias. All of them.
 
What I find highly interesting is the significant percentages of R1a-M17 in Apulia, Calabria Ionica, and especially Grecia Salentina, and the paucity of J1 even in the south.

For those who may have forgotten, the Valle Borbera is listed as Piemonte, but that's an accident of recent map drawing politics; the villages all speak a Ligurian dialect and even the names of the villages contain the word "Ligure". So, those are isolated Ligurians, who, as you can see, are very high in R1b, especially U-152, but also have 12.9% of G2a-497, and barely any E-V13. That, to me, and contrary to some of the speculation introduced to this board, speaks to a maritime spread of E-V13 in the Ligurians.

As for Tortona/Vorghera, they're in a no man's land between Lombardia, Piemonte and Emilia.

As I've expounded upon before, these mountain communities of the Appennines are pretty similar in genetic make-up, I think, as they are in culture. Cavalli Sforza speculated these were the refugial areas of the Celt-Ligurians. I wish they could be tested against ancient samples from there, if we ever get some, before all the older people with all four grandparents from the area are dead.

Valle Borbera: lots of burly, rather portly men with big, broad, round skulls for the most part, as there are in the Appennines of Emilia.
STEFANO VALLA e MATTEO BURRONE "" Monferrina "" - YouTube

CORO SPONTANEO "" Bella Angiolina "" - YouTube

I was wondering the same, how can those E-V13 hop Western Balkans and Italy and appear in Southern Liguria.
 
Those areas are very specific, some stayed under the goths for less than 10 years while centuries under the Byzantines. If it was the Normans I think Sicily would be much higher and that isn't the case

… the Duke of Puglia laid the foundations for the Kingdom of Sicily, … and the last original (Hauteville) Norman king of Sicily, Tancred of Lecce, was born in Lecce (Salento, Puglia ).

… Robert Guiscard (Hauteville) Norman adventurer who settled in Apulia, in southern Italy, about 1047 and became duke of Apulia (1059). He eventually extended Norman rule over Naples, Calabria, and Sicily and laid the foundations of the kingdom of Sicily …

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Robert-duke-of-Apulia
 
I was wondering the same, how can those E-V13 hop Western Balkans and Italy and appear in Southern Liguria.

The interesting thing is that you find the E-V13 in coastal Liguria, but not in the Ligurian Appennines. If, as some think, it came from the northern Balkans into Italy I would think it would be present in the mountains north of the coast as well as on the coast.

That's why I've always thought that perhaps the most parsimonious explanation is Greeks, some from Massalia, and some from Luni.

Of course, with yDna lines you need lots and lots of samples and they have to be really refined as to sub-lineages, so I'm not dying on this hill, if you get my meaning. :)
 
Those areas are very specific, some stayed under the goths for less than 10 years while centuries under the Byzantines. If it was the Normans I think Sicily would be much higher and that isn't the case

Maybe just mercenaries hired by the Byzantines from the same part of the world? The Varangians? That's all the Normans were initially as well, after all.

Or, it could be Greek migration, perhaps? Anyone know how much R1a-M17 there is in Greece?
 
At some point it would be good to compare the Tyrrhenian Calabrians, the Ionian Calabrians, and the "Greek" Calabrians of the Aspromonte enclave just north of Reggio Calabria autosomally.
 
Maybe just mercenaries hired by the Byzantines from the same part of the world? The Varangians? That's all the Normans were initially as well, after all.

Or, it could be Greek migration, perhaps? Anyone know how much R1a-M17 there is in Greece?

Almost the entire R1a is Slavic in Greece. While R1a-Z93 is hypothesized to be a Mycenaean line from Agamemnon. Not sure where he got the idea. It could be true.

Did Greeks have colonies in modern Liguria? I searched in Internet did not find anything. Only about France.

I have seen in Kalymnos that G2a reaches 20% and in Crete it is 10% while J2a is the same. So we might see regional differences when it comes to Y-dna in Ancient Greece, given how similar Thracians were to Mycenaean. The impact of E-V13 people could go unnoticed completely during the Late Bronze Age autosomally but I strongly believe it was lower than J2a in Ancient Peloponnese.

Iron Age South Thracians might be only few hairs away from Mycenaeans in the PCA.
 
Almost the entire R1a is Slavic in Greece. While R1a-Z93 is hypothesized to be a Mycenaean line from Agamemnon. Not sure where he got the idea. It could be true.

Did Greeks have colonies in modern Liguria? I searched in Internet did not find anything. Only about France.

I have seen in Kalymnos that G2a reaches 20% and in Crete it is 10% while J2a is the same. So we might see regional differences when it comes to Y-dna in Ancient Greece, given how similar Thracians were to Mycenaean. The impact of E-V13 people could go unnoticed completely during the Late Bronze Age autosomally but I strongly believe it was lower than J2a in Ancient Peloponnese.

Iron Age South Thracians might be only few hairs away Mycenaeans in the PCA.

a few small trading posts .......but the big town was
The oldest city of modern France, Marseille, was founded around 600 BC by Greeks from the Asia Minor city of Phocaea

They also owned Corsica ...before the etruscans invaded and took it ............
 
The interesting thing is that you find the E-V13 in coastal Liguria, but not in the Ligurian Appennines. If, as some think, it came from the northern Balkans into Italy I would think it would be present in the mountains north of the coast as well as on the coast.

That's why I've always thought that perhaps the most parsimonious explanation is Greeks, some from Massalia, and some from Luni.

Of course, with yDna lines you need lots and lots of samples and they have to be really refined as to sub-lineages, so I'm not dying on this hill, if you get my meaning. :)

The problem with this theory is that the centre of the Greek colonisation along the Western Mediterranean shows no higher E-V13 percentage, but in fact a lower one. And if one goes North and East, from Liguria, there are pockets of high E-V13 in Switzerland, Austria, Southern, Western and Central Germany. Not as high as in Liguria, but if considering how much of the local patrilineages are of recent Germanic and Slavic origin in those areas, the relative percentage of the pre-Germanic share is still quite high. In St. Gallen it might be even as high as in Liguria or not too far from it.
We have to consider many founder effects and shifts, about which we know almost nothing, but both the overall distribution suggest rather an LBA-EIA/Urnfield-Hallstatt spread. Another problem is that we don't have enough for Greeks themselves. Both Greeks, Swiss, Venetians and Ligurians are not well tested for BigY/WGS. Same goes for the whole Southern German range.

The only really well-tested people in this respect are currently the British Isles and Albanians imho. Like there could be a connection ranging from Serbia, over Hungary, into the Alps and down to Switerland and Northern Italy, well into France and Germany, with relevant subclades for the LBA-EIA, by the looks of it. But the testing is insufficient to really confirm it at this point and ancient DNA is the prime mean to really prove it.
 
At some point it would be good to compare the Tyrrhenian Calabrians, the Ionian Calabrians, and the "Greek" Calabrians of the Aspromonte enclave just north of Reggio Calabria autosomally.

Ahem, I raised this very point not so long ago

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/41912-Magna-Graecia/page6?p=633750&viewfull=1#post633750

Of course I am hardly a man of science. My suspicions are informed entirely by my own narrow data. I know that my Italian ancestry is from Monte Poro (Tyrrhenian Calabria) and has existed in the area dating back at least to 1500, and yet I score very high Northern Italian.

How to account for this? My gut instinct is that Etruscan-like groups settled the western coasts of Italy from north-to-south. I realize the Etruscans only barely entered Campania, but perhaps other Etruscan-like peoples went further south . . . . In Calabria, my imagined Tyrsenian-speakers were followed by Oscans (Ausonians) and eventually by Roman colonies (e.g., Vibo Valentia, initially Greek, briefly held by Carthage, thoroughly Romanized after 194 BC). Although research conducted at Punta di Zambrone has revealed deep trade links between Tyrrhennian Calabria and the Aegean world, from circa 2000 BCE down to 1200 BCE, the region also participated in West Mediterranean networks, primarily with the Aeolian Islands and north coast Sicily, but also points further north.

If there was in fact significant Etruscan & Roman gene flow into this part of Calabria, it would have partially offset the great & repeated influxes of CHG & Anatolian ancestry that came through the east-to-west corridor dating back to the Neolithic. Calabria Tirrenica should therefore be shifted to the NW from Ionian Calabria, Eastern Sicily and Apulia.

Regardless, it looks like we should have some answers soon. There are lots of caves in Calabria with very old bones ==

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8146030/

I also started a new thread on Punta di Zambrone in the Archaeology section. I just discovered a 2021 book devoted to its archaeology online. It looks amazing. I'm studying for a big exam, so I probably shouldn't tax my mind reading it just yet. But I of course find ways to procrastinate (for example, visiting Eupedia)
 
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… just a personal observation,
… KingJohn post #555 has the highest y T in Volterra,
… Modern T-SK1480 (Torzio and I final clade), is also located near Volterra,
… my SPA (Spatial Ancestral Analysis) result is Chieti, located near Bronze-Age T-Z19945
… Chieti is also one of my MyHeritage Genetic Groups.

… they’re too many to be just coincidences, … who knows :)

Geographical-locations-of-the-10-analysed-Italian-population-samples.png


PyLrCs1.jpg



iEzqfaS.jpg



ARLidSw.jpg


http://genetics.cs.ucla.edu/spa/

http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html
 
The problem with this theory is that the centre of the Greek colonisation along the Western Mediterranean shows no higher E-V13 percentage, but in fact a lower one. And if one goes North and East, from Liguria, there are pockets of high E-V13 in Switzerland, Austria, Southern, Western and Central Germany. Not as high as in Liguria, but if considering how much of the local patrilineages are of recent Germanic and Slavic origin in those areas, the relative percentage of the pre-Germanic share is still quite high. In St. Gallen it might be even as high as in Liguria or not too far from it.
We have to consider many founder effects and shifts, about which we know almost nothing, but both the overall distribution suggest rather an LBA-EIA/Urnfield-Hallstatt spread. Another problem is that we don't have enough for Greeks themselves. Both Greeks, Swiss, Venetians and Ligurians are not well tested for BigY/WGS. Same goes for the whole Southern German range.

The only really well-tested people in this respect are currently the British Isles and Albanians imho. Like there could be a connection ranging from Serbia, over Hungary, into the Alps and down to Switerland and Northern Italy, well into France and Germany, with relevant subclades for the LBA-EIA, by the looks of it. But the testing is insufficient to really confirm it at this point and ancient DNA is the prime mean to really prove it.

Again, i fail to see any connection between Ligurians and Switzerland/Austria with Thraco-Cimmerians and Bosut-Bassarabi. There is absolutely no archaeological chronology or material i can find pointing to this. Though we might have 1 E-V13 sample among La Tene nearby Liguria during Iron Age. Things will get resolved when we have more samples during Iron Age, exact timeline in different regions.
 
We have the hoards and flame shaped spearheads. Early Hallstatt was clearly influenced by Channelled Ware and the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon.
Many elements common in Hallstatt appear in Gava related contexts first and the connection of Basarabi to the hub in Eastern Hallstatt, the Fr?g and Kalenderberg groups in particular is glass clear.
Note that the influences spread from there directly to Southern Germany, Switzerland and Northern Italy.
Read up on "Basaraboid" elements in Hallstatt.
Later they, especially in the West, emancipated more, with a complete shift in La Tene.
But early on, there was a massive influence from the Basarabi group on Hallstatt.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...um_und_Mitteleuropa_wahrend_der_Hallstattzeit

In the very late Urnfield period, the hoard producing Channelled Ware people moved the Danube up.
That's when we find the flame shaped spearheads spreading West and reaching Northern Italy through the Alps.
The contacts did not die off with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and produced the Basarabi-Hallstatt sphere.
In some areas it was just an influence, in others like Fr?g it was dominant.
They even kept marriage ties over centuries.
 
… just a personal observation,
… KingJohn post #555 has the highest y T in Volterra,
… Modern T-SK1480 (Torzio and I final clade), is also located near Volterra,
… my SPA (Spatial Ancestral Analysis) result is Chieti, located near Bronze-Age T-Z19945
… Chieti is also one of my MyHeritage Genetic Groups.
… they’re too many to be just coincidences, … who knows :)
Geographical-locations-of-the-10-analysed-Italian-population-samples.png

PyLrCs1.jpg

iEzqfaS.jpg

ARLidSw.jpg

http://genetics.cs.ucla.edu/spa/
http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html
Yes
You got a good eye salento:)
The T % in volterra can be roman etruscan
Or even earlier:unsure:
 

Maciamo's wiki entry on Catacomb Culture:

Closely related to the Corded Ware Culture.


Originated in the forests of central and northern European Russia, then expanded southward and eventually replaced the Yamna culture, from which it is culturally descended.


The Catacomb culture could be ancestral to the Indo-Iranians, and/or to the Daco-Thracians, Mycenaean Greeks, Phrygians and Armenians.


Stock-breeding culture of semi-nomadic herders riding on horses. Cattle were the dominant domesticated animals, followed by sheep/goat and horses. Cereal agriculture and pig-breeding was practiced in a few permanent settlements in river valleys.


Pottery more elaborated than Yamna. Use of similar cord-impressed pottery with geometric shapes as the Corded Ware culture. Bronze artefacts included shaft-hole axes, fanged daggers, adzes, hammer-head pins, bodkins and chisels. Stone maces, polished stone battle axes, flint arrowheads and flint spears were also used.


Houses were predominantly rectangular, partially sunken in the ground and built with wooden posts.


The dead were inhumed in kurgans similar to the Yamna culture, but with a trench dug into the main shaft, creating the "catacomb", and burial niches in its side walls. Bodies were usually placed in a crouched position on their side and were accompanied by weapons or tools (for men), or pottery and silver ornaments (for women). Graves of elevated social status also contained two- or four-wheeled wagons (and possibly some early chariots), prestige items (axes, scepters), and sacrificed animals (mostly cattle and sheep/goat). A new funeral practice emerged with the modelling of a clay mask over the face of the deceased. These masks may have been the prototypes of the Mycenaean gold masks, like the famous Mask of Agamemnon.

https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/catacomb_culture.shtml
 

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