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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Greeks were only in Sicily and Calabria?, What about Campania, Basilicata and Puglia as well?

    no puglia, until after the romans took apulia
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
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    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    which sample is the one for 530BC ?

    it is late for any daunian trade to greece and albania which began around circa 400Bc .......more than 500 years had already passed in the Daunian and associate settlement in Apulia ...............they trade only with Liburnia

    they even trade for

    Chert is another main product that played an important trade role since the Neolithic.
    It has already been mentioned that the Gargano was an important center for chert. Palagruža also
    had a local chert quarry nearby. It’s been noted that chert of Palagruža were found in Dalmatia
    (Vis and Hvar) and Gargano chert was found on Palagruža itself. Concluding that these island
    chains were used in both directions across the Adriatic. In support of this theory is the fact that
    these island chains were visible by eye from Gargano, Apulia and from vis, Dalmatia.


    Chert has economic importance today as a source of silica. However, in the past, chert deposits may be associated with valuable deposits of iron in the iron-age.
    This Gentleman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    And from Trojet: SGR002, San Giovanni Rotondo, 571 cal BCE, is R-Z2103+

    So R-Z2103 confirmed in Daunians, ofc most likely also an immigrant across the sea.
    And I assume you mean early? Since we are talking BC, and 571 is almost a couple centuries earlier than 400 bc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    no puglia, until after the romans took apulia
    I always thought there were Greek settlements in Puglia dating back to 8th century BC, maybe not the entire part of what is Modern Puglia until later, but at least the Southern half of what is today Modern Puglia. The City "Tarantum (modern Taranto)" was founded the Spartans (i.e. Greeks) and the City would b the site of conflict and war in the late 3rd century BC and was already the home of Greeks before the Romans sought to control it. In fact, many of the local Southern Italic Tribes at first allied themselves with the Greek speaking population to prevent Roman hegemony taking over all of Southern Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Urnfield burials are more likely than not E-V13 burials, so Illyrian tribes of Albanian
    Illyrii proprii/proprie dicti, remain a very good candidate for E-V13.
    1) Urnfielders were Central European autosomally, most of their samples fit there, that low res "Polish" Montenegrin IA sample might have been one.
    2) Urnfield influence was almost non-existent in Albania
    3) Urnfield were non-Illyrian speakers, their remnant were the Liburnian Venetic speakers. Now these results confirm that assumption.
    4) As Babadag-Pshenichevo was heavy with E-V13 Basarabi which spawned out them will also be. These EIA cultures represent bulk of Daco-Thracians, Triballians.
    5) Urnfielders were likely dominantly R-U152, Western Balkans is already seeing strong diversity of R-U152 clades, many of which are clearly non-Roman, and even non-Celtic.

    I mean for heck's sake there is a J2a Urnfielder but there isn't a V13 Urnfielder yet... E-V13 looks to have a connection to the Eastern Urnfield complex which was proto-Thracian, the Gava culture. And this connection being indirect albeit important.

    Urnfielders actually attacked early Illyrians, but failed to make a big impact. Later in MBA Glasinac related Illyrian groups pushed back to the North and effectively Illyrianized the Urnfielders. J2b moving to Pannonia and bringing the Illyrian language.

    Urnfelder autosomal profile is quite clear, samples from Czechia to Hungary cluster with one another, had they left such a big impact in the Balkans, and in Albanians, Albanians would have been autosomally quite different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    And I assume you mean early? Since we are talking BC, and 571 is almost a couple centuries earlier than 400 bc.
    I mean the early Illyrian R-Z2103 who crossed over to Italy. This expansion occurred earlier in EIA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    I mean the early Illyrian R-Z2103 who crossed over to Italy. This expansion occurred earlier in EIA.
    Yes, you were perfectly clear. That was meant for Torzio, regarding the bolded part from his comment.

    Ps: Are you aware that the Basarabi dynasty is L283, and also there is this rumored L283 in Moldova from Eneolithic (would make it the oldest). If this is indeed the case, how come we haven't found L283 and V13 in ancient burials together yet? It dumbfounds me. They must have been people with very different histories, in prehistory. Yet, Moldova, Basarabia, Danube Basin and Panonia seem the common denominators. Hence my surprise why we havent found them together yet.

    Then again maybe the low number of samples we have so far is to blame.

    Torzio was making a point that these Puglians were plotting closest to BA Croatians, and not BA Montenegrins or Bosnians. But he failed to mention we have no DNA from MBA-LBA DNA from Montenegro and Bosnia. And I found that remark peculiar.

    On another note, disregard that I share this haplo, since my next statement might seem biased.

    But, so far we have Nuragics, Dalmatia, Mokrin, Rumored Moldova, Rumored Albania, Daunian, Etruscan etc L283 within Europe from around BA-EIA. What's up with V13? They seem, based on YFull to have had a demographic explosion and downstream haplo diversification pretty much during the same period, BA, around the same area, Balkans somewhere. Where are these ancient samples? Greece papers come out, missing. Italian papers, same.

    I am starting to think cremation can be the only plausible answer.

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    The Etruscans were part of Urnfield cultural complex, Urnfield consisted of various populations, as well and whether people like it or not they might have been Late Bronze Age intruders from somewhere from Hungary.

    Autosomal is not a decisive factor if the movement was male mediated.

    Despite it, we have La Tene Hallstatt sample which is E-M215 which is very likely E-V13. Clearly, it was a minority but lived east of them. Honestly i think Riverman's theory makes more and more sense.

    There was a clear push in Late Bronze Age so people jad to find a new home and/or to plunder rich Mediterranean countries like Mycenae, Hittite, Egypt. Many of plunderers were coming from the shores of Adriatic, Tyrrhenian and Aegean sea but as attested by Egyptian depictions some of these Urnfielders joined as well in Battle of Delta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    I always thought there were Greek settlements in Puglia dating back to 8th century BC, maybe not the entire part of what is Modern Puglia until later, but at least the Southern half of what is today Modern Puglia. The City "Tarantum (modern Taranto)" was founded the Spartans (i.e. Greeks) and the City would b the site of conflict and war in the late 3rd century BC and was already the home of Greeks before the Romans sought to control it. In fact, many of the local Southern Italic Tribes at first allied themselves with the Greek speaking population to prevent Roman hegemony taking over all of Southern Italy.
    In 473 BC, the Messapi defeated the Spartan colonies,
    … “the greatest slaughter of Greeks ever recorded” …

    “la più grande strage di Greci fra quante se ne conoscano”

    after that the Greeks were only able to return to and retain Taranto.

    http://www.archeologico.org/wp-conte...SA-SALENTO.pdf

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapians
    🕷️

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    1) Urnfielders were Central European autosomally, most of their samples fit there, that low res "Polish" Montenegrin IA sample might have been one.
    2) Urnfield influence was almost non-existent in Albania
    3) Urnfield were non-Illyrian speakers, their remnant were the Liburnian Venetic speakers. Now these results confirm that assumption.
    4) As Babadag-Pshenichevo was heavy with E-V13 Basarabi which spawned out them will also be. These EIA cultures represent bulk of Daco-Thracians, Triballians.
    5) Urnfielders were likely dominantly R-U152, Western Balkans is already seeing strong diversity of R-U152 clades, many of which are clearly non-Roman, and even non-Celtic.

    I mean for heck's sake there is a J2a Urnfielder but there isn't a V13 Urnfielder yet... E-V13 looks to have a connection to the Eastern Urnfield complex which was proto-Thracian, the Gava culture. And this connection being indirect albeit important.

    Urnfielders actually attacked early Illyrians, but failed to make a big impact. Later in MBA Glasinac related Illyrian groups pushed back to the North and effectively Illyrianized the Urnfielders. J2b moving to Pannonia and bringing the Illyrian language.

    Urnfelder autosomal profile is quite clear, samples from Czechia to Hungary cluster with one another, had they left such a big impact in the Balkans, and in Albanians, Albanians would have been autosomally quite different.
    I am not talking, Albanians.

    Illyrian as a name is presumed to come from Albania,not Dalmatia, and at that point Albania has received a certain impact of urnfielders that has been classified as small by Albanian archeologists but significant by foreign ones.

    So I suppose that by the time Greeks named their northern neighbors Illyrians, E-V13 was roaming strong all over Balkans including Peloponnesus.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    In 473 BC, the Messapi defeated the Spartan colonies,
    … “the greatest slaughter of Greeks ever recorded” …

    “la più grande strage di Greci fra quante se ne conoscano”

    after that the Greeks were only able to return to and retain Taranto.

    http://www.archeologico.org/wp-conte...SA-SALENTO.pdf

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapians
    Salento: Ok, thanks for the additional information. You post is consistent with mine, Greeks from Sparta were present in Apulia well before the Romans began to attempt to bring it under their control from Rome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Yes, you were perfectly clear. That was meant for Torzio, regarding the bolded part from his comment.

    Ps: Are you aware that the Basarabi dynasty is L283, and also there is this rumored L283 in Moldova from Eneolithic (would make it the oldest). If this is indeed the case, how come we haven't found L283 and V13 in ancient burials together yet? It dumbfounds me. They must have been people with very different histories, in prehistory. Yet, Moldova, Basarabia, Danube Basin and Panonia seem the common denominators. Hence my surprise why we havent found them together yet.

    Then again maybe the low number of samples we have so far is to blame.

    Torzio was making a point that these Puglians were plotting closest to BA Croatians, and not BA Montenegrins or Bosnians. But he failed to mention we have no DNA from MBA-LBA DNA from Montenegro and Bosnia. And I found that remark peculiar.

    On another note, disregard that I share this haplo, since my next statement might seem biased.

    But, so far we have Nuragics, Dalmatia, Mokrin, Rumored Moldova, Rumored Albania, Daunian, Etruscan etc L283 within Europe from around BA-EIA. What's up with V13? They seem, based on YFull to have had a demographic explosion and downstream haplo diversification pretty much during the same period, BA, around the same area, Balkans somewhere. Where are these ancient samples? Greece papers come out, missing. Italian papers, same.

    I am starting to think cremation can be the only plausible answer.
    Basarabi dynasty are of this subclade, so Moldovan J-L283 sample isn't of relevance here. There are also some Albanians in this clade.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22894/

    Regarding the E-V13:
    Old Svilengrad E-Z1919+/ some said he was already V13+
    Kapitan Andreevo E-L618, surely V13+ on more resolution
    Kapitan Andreevo E-V13
    Moldovan "Scythian" E-FGC44169 , autosomally Getae, shows similiarity to Thraco-Cimmerian Babadag sample
    Bulgaria, LIA E

    Also Bulgaria Late Antiquity E-V13. The fact that random Thracian samples from EIA, LIA, LA belong to the same hg says this hg dominated it. Late Antiquity Viminatium, Daco-Mysian area shows heavy E-V13.

    I warned you that there might be a very sharp border between the J-L283 and E-V13 lands, and these new results point towards such a scenario. These groups which expanded in BA seem to have had pretty exclusive meta-ethnic affiliation:
    R-Z93 is Iranic, nothing else in any meaningful sense
    R-U106 is Germanic, nothing else in any meaningful sense
    R-Z280 Balto-Slavic, nothing else in any meaningful sense
    J-L283 is Illyrian, nothing else in any meaningful sense
    E-V13 is Thracian, nothing else in any meaningful sense...

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    Yes, Moldova and Bulgaria. Hence why I said its very strange that no common burials have been found yet. Given that just few centuries later L283 and V13 were found together, let alone in the Balkans, but as far as Germany/Austria in early medieval times (if I am not mistaking z2103, but I'm pretty sure I was talking about V13 with an admin couple of months ago).

    I meant with that post to highlight the absurdity, that unless cremation was V13s exclusive method of burial, then none of this makes sense. The YFULL picture and what we get paper after paper just surprises people. In the beginning it was shocking to me, now its just oh... more of the same.

    I have some hope that the South Albania site might have V13, and once both papers come out, and the files are public, we will have a better, albeit still limited autosomal frame of reference from the other side of the Adriatic. Since Balkans has to be the least studied and sampled region in regards to ancient samples.

    But this autosomal frame of reference would be the biggest key to untangling this whole ordeal.
    Just hope I am wrong about the cremation part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Yes, you were perfectly clear. That was meant for Torzio, regarding the bolded part from his comment.

    Ps: Are you aware that the Basarabi dynasty is L283, and also there is this rumored L283 in Moldova from Eneolithic (would make it the oldest). If this is indeed the case, how come we haven't found L283 and V13 in ancient burials together yet? It dumbfounds me. They must have been people with very different histories, in prehistory. Yet, Moldova, Basarabia, Danube Basin and Panonia seem the common denominators. Hence my surprise why we havent found them together yet.

    Then again maybe the low number of samples we have so far is to blame.

    Torzio was making a point that these Puglians were plotting closest to BA Croatians, and not BA Montenegrins or Bosnians. But he failed to mention we have no DNA from MBA-LBA DNA from Montenegro and Bosnia. And I found that remark peculiar.

    On another note, disregard that I share this haplo, since my next statement might seem biased.

    But, so far we have Nuragics, Dalmatia, Mokrin, Rumored Moldova, Rumored Albania, Daunian, Etruscan etc L283 within Europe from around BA-EIA. What's up with V13? They seem, based on YFull to have had a demographic explosion and downstream haplo diversification pretty much during the same period, BA, around the same area, Balkans somewhere. Where are these ancient samples? Greece papers come out, missing. Italian papers, same.

    I am starting to think cremation can be the only plausible answer.

    Its good you came up with this, because I too thought about this more than once, but was not able to come to a meaningful conclusion so far. Was E-V13 originally associated with other patrilineages, in some form of source group, just like R1a and R1b were together in the early steppe population and split up later, in founding in branching events. So were they not fundamentally different and departed from each other very early, but just shortly before expanding - especially E-V13 and J-L283. That's something which crossed my mind and I don't have an answer yet.

    Its an particularly interesting question, because it all might lead back to the Corded decorated ceramic horizon, the earliest Western steppe expansion and the creation of the Epicorded cultural formations in Eastern Central Europe. One theory of mine was that E-V13 lived originally among people of Lengyel-Sopot and/or Tripolye-Cucuteni. Now TCC is particularly important because very influential for the PIE, for a long time a close ally and partner. And when the Western steppe groups finally crossed the line and first single individuals and small migrant groups, later whole tribes were coming into TCC, transforming it, while they themselves got transformed too, this was a sensitive time. Any kind of fusion and admixture that early could influence a whole steppe and Indoeuropean branch. The Carpathian zone in particular was extremely important, because through the whole Copper and Bronze Age, up to the early Iron Age, it was one if not the metallurgical centre of Europe and the most important source of valuable metal status symbols and weapons for the Western steppe people.
    So I think its one scenario out of many, but one with a good chance of being correct, that early on, from TCC, some local clans made it into the expanding steppe networks, especially metallurgical experts, miners and smiths. And that's what they remained, up to the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and early Hallstatt. The question is whether E-V13 was accompanied by other surviving lineages in the same Pannonian-Carpathian-Western steppe environment. Obviously, J-L283 is one of these candidates and could have grown in a similar way within the post-steppe world of CEE.

    But in some ways E-V13 seems to have taken its own paths, so even if that was the case, if there was a similar history and early connection, it didn't last for all clades and regions in any case.

    The reason for the lack of samples is cremation, but not just, because they will appear largely with iron in most regions I guess. Before the Channelled/Fluted Ware horizon spread and with it iron, in most regions there was no E-V13. This combination of the Channelled/Fluted Ware horizon with early iron working, iron weapons, truly swept through Eastern Central Europe and the Balkans. You see it in the archaeological record, and if there would be no case for E-V13, I would search for another candidate. Because just like Corded Ware or Bell Beakers, this is a red flag archaeological impact scenario from my point of view. Its not that well known, I myself just read into much later than into other aspects of European archaeology, but its just one of these cases where you should ask: "Which change did it cause, which people and ethnicity spread it or was spread by it." Its just like Corded Ware or Bell Beakers, you follow its route, you have to expect an impact on patrilineages. And E-V13 just is it. Its not as total and complete as in the Eneolithic, obviously, its a different framework and context, they didn't really break through everywhere, in some regions they just formed local nests and trickled in, but you see this event, this massive spread of new ways and technology, from the Carpathians down to the Aegean.

    I still wonder about the relationship of Illyrian and Daco-Thracian, which is a very complicated issue, ranging from not related at all, other than being IE, to dialects of the same ethnolinguistic branch. Its certainly possible that Illyrian was an earlier branching event from the same source, Daco-Thracian the next, Baltoslavic followed, imho.

    For the linguistic experts: What exactly was the difference and relationship of the Pannonian and Balkan Illyrian languages? Anything known or not enough material to come to meaningful conclusions. Because in my scheme the Pannonian groups should be more Urnfield/E-V13 influenced.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Salento: Ok, thanks for the additional information. You post is consistent with mine, Greeks from Sparta were present in Apulia well before the Romans began to attempt to bring it under their control from Rome.
    … besides Taranto, most of the Greeks had already been purged from Puglia by the time of the Roman expansion, though by this time the Messapi had strategic alliances with some of the mainland Greeks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The Etruscans were part of Urnfield cultural complex, Urnfield consisted of various populations, as well and whether people like it or not they might have been Late Bronze Age intruders from somewhere from Hungary.

    Autosomal is not a decisive factor if the movement was male mediated.

    Despite it, we have La Tene Hallstatt sample which is E-M215 which is very likely E-V13. Clearly, it was a minority but lived east of them. Honestly i think Riverman's theory makes more and more sense.

    There was a clear push in Late Bronze Age so people jad to find a new home and/or to plunder rich Mediterranean countries like Mycenae, Hittite, Egypt. Many of plunderers were coming from the shores of Adriatic, Tyrrhenian and Aegean sea but as attested by Egyptian depictions some of these Urnfielders joined as well in Battle of Delta.
    That La Tene sample is interesting and it would point towards some V13 joining them, from the East. But autosomal borders did matter, when we look at ancient cultural blocks. V13 finds do not quite fit into Urnfield spectrum, they do fit in Thraco-Cimmerian spectrum. MJ12 find has autosomal Cimmerian influence, and it is Babadag culture find, sister culture to Pshenichevo where V13 is strong. So a E-V13 area of influence is beginning to form based on aDNA samples..


    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I am not talking, Albanians.

    Illyrian as a name is presumed to come from Albania,not Dalmatia, and at that point Albania has received a certain impact of urnfielders that has been classified as small by Albanian archeologists but significant by foreign ones.

    So I suppose that by the time Greeks named their northern neighbors Illyrians, E-V13 was roaming strong all over Balkans including Peloponnesus.
    Well surely V13 were roaming and even reaching Peloponesus, precisely the Pshenichevo people were present at Troy after the Trojan war, but also in Southern Greece. Pshenichevo people also reached Dardania etc. Of little Urnfield influence that I know of in Albania, most of it is Eastern Thracian Urnfield, Gava culture.

    I expected to see some E-V13 in Daunians, I thought Southern part of Albania was maybe home to some V13 clades in BA, that is home to Brygian V13 clades, but that seems to have gone out with a wind.. Rather instead this R-Z2103 find might eventually point to something Brygian.

    Quite possibly some of these I-M223 were also from the Balkans.

    In fact I think the dominant Sardinian I-M223 clade was not attested in Ancient Sardinia, but it was attested in BA Balkans.. I-L699 was found in Yamnaya culture, dominates the proto-Anatolian Ezero culture.

    Nuragic ORC004 was I-PF692, another EBA sample was I-Y6098. One Daunian is I-Y3670 it seems, this clade has too some Balkan people, but I guess being local is more likely. I'm waiting to see if second sample is I-L699. How did I-L699 reach Sardinia? From the Balkans? Sea Peoples, maybe Messapians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Urnfield burials are more likely than not E-V13 burials, so Illyrian tribes of Albanian
    Illyrii proprii/proprie dicti, remain a very good candidate for E-V13.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Its good you came up with this, because I too thought about this more than once, but was not able to come to a meaningful conclusion so far. Was E-V13 originally associated with other patrilineages, in some form of source group, just like R1a and R1b were together in the early steppe population and split up later, in founding in branching events. So were they not fundamentally different and departed from each other very early, but just shortly before expanding - especially E-V13 and J-L283. That's something which crossed my mind and I don't have an answer yet.

    Its an particularly interesting question, because it all might lead back to the Corded decorated ceramic horizon, the earliest Western steppe expansion and the creation of the Epicorded cultural formations in Eastern Central Europe. One theory of mine was that E-V13 lived originally among people of Lengyel-Sopot and/or Tripolye-Cucuteni. Now TCC is particularly important because very influential for the PIE, for a long time a close ally and partner. And when the Western steppe groups finally crossed the line and first single individuals and small migrant groups, later whole tribes were coming into TCC, transforming it, while they themselves got transformed too, this was a sensitive time. Any kind of fusion and admixture that early could influence a whole steppe and Indoeuropean branch. The Carpathian zone in particular was extremely important, because through the whole Copper and Bronze Age, up to the early Iron Age, it was one if not the metallurgical centre of Europe and the most important source of valuable metal status symbols and weapons for the Western steppe people.
    So I think its one scenario out of many, but one with a good chance of being correct, that early on, from TCC, some local clans made it into the expanding steppe networks, especially metallurgical experts, miners and smiths. And that's what they remained, up to the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and early Hallstatt. The question is whether E-V13 was accompanied by other surviving lineages in the same Pannonian-Carpathian-Western steppe environment. Obviously, J-L283 is one of these candidates and could have grown in a similar way within the post-steppe world of CEE.

    But in some ways E-V13 seems to have taken its own paths, so even if that was the case, if there was a similar history and early connection, it didn't last for all clades and regions in any case.

    The reason for the lack of samples is cremation, but not just, because they will appear largely with iron in most regions I guess. Before the Channelled/Fluted Ware horizon spread and with it iron, in most regions there was no E-V13. This combination of the Channelled/Fluted Ware horizon with early iron working, iron weapons, truly swept through Eastern Central Europe and the Balkans. You see it in the archaeological record, and if there would be no case for E-V13, I would search for another candidate. Because just like Corded Ware or Bell Beakers, this is a red flag archaeological impact scenario from my point of view. Its not that well known, I myself just read into much later than into other aspects of European archaeology, but its just one of these cases where you should ask: "Which change did it cause, which people and ethnicity spread it or was spread by it." Its just like Corded Ware or Bell Beakers, you follow its route, you have to expect an impact on patrilineages. And E-V13 just is it. Its not as total and complete as in the Eneolithic, obviously, its a different framework and context, they didn't really break through everywhere, in some regions they just formed local nests and trickled in, but you see this event, this massive spread of new ways and technology, from the Carpathians down to the Aegean.

    I still wonder about the relationship of Illyrian and Daco-Thracian, which is a very complicated issue, ranging from not related at all, other than being IE, to dialects of the same ethnolinguistic branch. Its certainly possible that Illyrian was an earlier branching event from the same source, Daco-Thracian the next, Baltoslavic followed, imho.

    For the linguistic experts: What exactly was the difference and relationship of the Pannonian and Balkan Illyrian languages? Anything known or not enough material to come to meaningful conclusions. Because in my scheme the Pannonian groups should be more Urnfield/E-V13 influenced.
    Very interesting read. With the help of Google as always, deciphering some of the baggage.

    Makes a lot of sense. Orell, cant recall the title of the book has very interesting insights into Albanian in relation to Balto-Slavic / and Germanic / Carpathian - Romanian etc. So some of your last points made a lot of sense, yet answers hard to pinpoint. Think these might be problems that are unanswerable, in linguistics, the correct answer is likely "not enough data to give an answer".

    About the genetics part, this very paper seems to further cement the relation of z2103 and L283. Now z2103, is found in Afasinevo, furthermore L283 most likely developed around the Western shore of the Caspian / Eastern Georgia-Caucasus. So likely these two groups met somewhere North of the Caucasus before entering through Moldova the southern mouth of the Carpathians into the Balkans (If 6kyo Moldovan L283 is confirmed, for a haplo that has 5.3k TMRCA and was formed 9kya, that would be the smoking gun). So Z2103 for sure was in the steppe, if you can find it in Eastern IE and Europe historically. L283 had to get to Europe from around the Caucasus. They probably were absorbed into larger steppe IE peoples before traveling into Europe Indoeuropeanized.

    Now as you see, the main difference between L283 and V13 is the speculation where they first emerged. And as you hypothesized, if V13 emerged or had the demographic explosion around the carpathians propelled by iron technology, it would make sense for L283 and z2103 to pass by their territory. IMO L283 had no chance to expand half a continent meaningfully as we can see from the ancient samples, without the horse, and for the Nuragics boats. So maybe a distiction could be along the lines, V13 had the demographic explosion due to iron technologies, and was incorporated into intruding IE peoples around the Carpathians, hence had their diffusion and diversification. If you see a thread I started some time ago about L283, you will see I suspect CHG component population in Yamnaya to have been partly due to L283. And looking at the CHG in these Daunian samples, I cant help but think it is more than a coincidence. And as we know Yamnaya were not the first IE wave into the Balkans. By some 2-3 ky depending on model or scholar you use as a reference. Hence, V13 and L283 could have expanded nonsimulatneously, yet like waves on the shore, ended up in the same places.

    The big question is, if cremation is not the main factor. If iron tech was the main propeller of V13, why is V13 not all over the place, surely militaristically they would have had an edge, why confined to S-E Balkans.

    I have to admit I tried wrapping my head around V13, many times. And just looking at Yfull I commend you and Aspurg for trying, its one of the more complicated diverse haplos I have come across. So much variety, so little clues.

    PS: Did not proofread any of that so hope I did not give you guys a headache.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Yes, Moldova and Bulgaria. Hence why I said its very strange that no common burials have been found yet. Given that just few centuries later L283 and V13 were found together, let alone in the Balkans, but as far as Germany/Austria in early medieval times (if I am not mistaking z2103, but I'm pretty sure I was talking about V13 with an admin couple of months ago).

    I meant with that post to highlight the absurdity, that unless cremation was V13s exclusive method of burial, then none of this makes sense. The YFULL picture and what we get paper after paper just surprises people. In the beginning it was shocking to me, now its just oh... more of the same.

    I have some hope that the South Albania site might have V13, and once both papers come out, and the files are public, we will have a better, albeit still limited autosomal frame of reference from the other side of the Adriatic. Since Balkans has to be the least studied and sampled region in regards to ancient samples.

    But this autosomal frame of reference would be the biggest key to untangling this whole ordeal.
    Just hope I am wrong about the cremation part.
    Oh V13 is related to cremation, surely, because cremation dominated Thracian groups. However some of these early Thracian groups were not so much practicing it.

    Cremation was not the practice of Illyrians, at least classical Illyrians, as represented by Glasinac-Mati culture, by the Messapians.. It was the practice of Urnfielders, but they were part linguistically of Italic group, then partly Etruscan group and Thracian group in the East. Illyrians were an older MBA layer that existed before the BA collapse, i.e. the J-L283 expansion which occurred in early MBA.

    As many authors stated Urnfielders and Glasinac people were nothing alike, and both of them could not have been Illyrian. These results clearly show that Urnfielders were not real Illyrians. And this can be seen as I ve said in archeological evidence, all of those historical Pannonian Illyrians, they just started speaking Illyrian around 500 BC when the Glasinac people expanded in all directions.

    Also from linguistic evidence Southern core Illyrian group with far less Urnfield influence was more "purely Illyrian", while the Pannonian group with heavy Urnfield influence had lots of Venetic influences, so this was apparent long time ago. Liburnians were their remnant.

    Situation with V13 complicates also the fact that there were Thraco-Cimmerian influences in Liburnian areas as well! So some V13 presence there that is seemingly Urnfield may be Thraco-Cimmerian..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    An interesting group are the Triballi, with their proto-culture falling exactly into the LBA-EIA transition. The Morava valley was a major pathway and important hub for the Channelled Ware groups. As for E-V13 in Albania, these people might be one of the potential sources?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi
    Glasinac related Illyrians, the Autariatae, expanded into Triballian territory, they were successful in pushing Triballians more to the East, so it is likely some Triballians were swallowed and assimilated by this Illyrian expansion. Surely a number of E-V13 in Illyrians should descend from that event.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    257 The new genomic sequences Daunian samples reveal that Iron Age (pre-Imperial) 258 Southern Italy (Apulia) can be placed within a Pan-Mediterranean genetic continuum that stretches from Crete (Minoans25) and the Levant (Sea People22,24 259 ) to the Republican Rome and the Iberian Peninsula6 260 , mainly composed by AN and IN/CHG genetic features with the addition of WHG and 261 Steppe-related influences in Continental Italy...Together with Minoans and Roman Republicans, this177 component can be broadly modelled as a Pan-Mediterranean population (constituted by AN and178 IN/CHG components) with the addition of WHG and Steppe-related ancestry in Roman179 Republicans
    Once again, SEA PEOPLES indicating the ASH068 sample is the only true Philistine among the rest in that study. He was similar to Myceneans.

    This paper actually provides a definition for a meta-ethnicity within the "Pan-Mediterranean genetic continuum". From the Minoans, to the IA Romans, the most predominate features are Anatolian_N, with CHG/IN, with variability on amounts of Steppe, and WHG autosomal minority. With the Minoans, we see the Proto-Mediterranean, a population rich in Anatolian_N and CHG, with those coming after them, receiving minority components of Steppe and WHG..

    Mediterranean is indeed a meta-ethnicity, like Nordic.

    The Apulians, who fit right in that continuum, right in the C6 cluster, are quintessentially Mediterranean.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 02-08-21 at 09:35.

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    This book/paper written by Mario Gavranović, Daniela Heilmann, Aleksandar Kapuran and Marek Verčík (Eds.) in 2020 i think, adds a lot of value to Balkan archeology.

    This series is based on a new cycle of conferences to be held every 2 or 3 years in the Balkans, and the first publication of them appeared in 2016 as Godišnjak [Sarajevo] vol. 47. These proceedings of the 2nd conference in Belgrade in 2017 contains a foreword, prologue, introduction, and 14 papers. They deal with the interaction in the SW Balkans in the M-LBA, similarities and differences in the material culture of the Belegiš II-Gava Group in the South Pannonian Plain and Morava Basin, inhumation vs. cremation in the LBA between the South Carpathian Basin and the W-Balkans, Dalmatia in the LBA to EIA, body armour in the LBA, the settlement at Čepintsi in its LBA context, settlements and cemeteries in EIA Macedonia, the Sea Peoples and the discourse of “Balkanism” in LBA archaeology, cultural continuity in the Western Morava Basin in the LBA-EIA, Late Hallstatt connections between the SE-Carpathian Basin and the Western and Central Balkans, female belt adornment in 7th/6th-century N-Albania, IA burial customs in N-Greece, “monochrome ware” in N-Greece from the Late Geometric to the Archaic Period, and life cycles of two metal vessels from a 4th-century grave at Vergina / Aegae.
    https://www.vml.de/e/detail.php?ISBN=978-3-86757-110-4

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    The big question is, if cremation is not the main factor. If iron tech was the main propeller of V13, why is V13 not all over the place, surely militaristically they would have had an edge, why confined to S-E Balkans.

    I have to admit I tried wrapping my head around V13, many times. And just looking at Yfull I commend you and Aspurg for trying, its one of the more complicated diverse haplos I have come across. So much variety, so little clues.

    PS: Did not proofread any of that so hope I did not give you guys a headache.
    E-V13 might have been strong in South Eastern Urnfield, Gava/Channelled Ware related groups, probably not even in the Gava centre itself, but its cultural descendents on the Balkan. To the North West, there were the Lusatians, which, as a whole, migh thave acquired E-V13 too, but not in this numbers. So coming under pressure or being blocked to the North by related people (Lusatian) and the East (Cimmerian-Scythian), the natural expansion, also economically more promising, was going South, and that's what we see. Just like with the LBA movement with Naue swords before, in which they might or might not have participated already.

    Also, they practically were all over the place South of their cultural relatives and the Urnfield network. Its like in the West with the Western Urnfield groups, which too didn't fight as much into the related network, which also bound together by religious ideas, but into the deep West, into the territory of "infidels", which paved the way for the Celtic sphere later.

    If you partition the various territories they could move into, the Eastern half of Central Europe and South Eastern Europe was the geographically natural expansion for a group from the Eastern Carpathians. Going the same pathways as Slavs did later, with Pannonian and Southern Slavs, practically exactly the same.

    I read in one article something like "Hallstatt cannelure-groups", which basically refers to the Eastern Hallstatt groups with Channelled Ware and these are pretty closely connected to Daco-Thracian people. I agree with Aspurg, that the Pannonian, more Urnfield shifted groups are a different kind of people most likely than the coastal "true Illyrians" and they should be more E-V13 in comparison. Not as much dominated as Thracians, but much more so than the other Illyrians. We see how different Urnfield newcomers being incorporated archaeologically already. Its visible they came as new migrants, but they didn't completley replace the local people, so might have been ethnically assimilated themselves in a lot of places or by later expansions, again like Aspurg said.

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    Riverman thanks, makes a lot of sense.

    Meanwhile Trojet posted some new info on Anthro.



    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y21878/


    Guess this kind of hints at Albanian rather than Croatian connection. But who knows.

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    What I can say is that a lot of sceptics, and naysayers' theories are dead in the water.

    Theories such as Albanian and Illyrian have no connection. There is no proof, yada yada.
    Ancient samples alone settled this debate (Dalmatia,Mokrin,Albania,Puglia), now people can bang heads all they want or even headbang a wall for all its worth.

    Looking back now, 10 year old posts on this forum, threads even valiantly defended by moderators at the time, are as cringeworthy as any Apricity thread. Those Serbian and Greek posters no longer around, and with them their 15th century Caucasian and African theories.

    Just Parapolitikos left, and whoever is so clueless to upvote his gibberish.

    Now if the mods could unlock the Albanian genetics thread, so I won't have to post these stuff here that would be great.

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    E-v13 is so complicated
    Haplogroup the more i learn
    The less i know..
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