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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    E-v13 is so complicated
    Haplogroup the more i learn
    The less i know..
    I seriously doubt that E-V13 in Sicily/South Italy was brought in Early Middle Ages. I thought Messapians were primary candidates due to high E-V13 Z5018 in Apuglia, but now i think Classical Greeks are responsible for a big number, if you check archeological records the Corinthian Greeks and Messapians different on burial rites in that Corinthians used cremation vs inhumation used by Messapi and similar groups.

    Then again you have Ligures in North-West Italy, with probably ~15% of E-V13.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    What I can say is that a lot of sceptics, and naysayers' theories are dead in the water.

    Theories such as Albanian and Illyrian have no connection. There is no proof, yada yada.
    Ancient samples alone settled this debate (Dalmatia,Mokrin,Albania,Puglia), now people can bang heads all they want or even headbang a wall for all its worth.

    Looking back now, 10 year old posts on this forum, threads even valiantly defended by moderators at the time, are as cringeworthy as any Apricity thread. Those Serbian and Greek posters no longer around, and with them their 15th century Caucasian and African theories.

    Just Parapolitikos left, and whoever is so clueless to upvote his gibberish.

    Now if the mods could unlock the Albanian genetics thread, so I won't have to post these stuff here that would be great.
    If anything, just start a new thread, and link the old one in the OP.


    TBH, prior to this hobby, I never knew other people were so invested in the Iapygian tribes, especially in regard to their own origins, etc. If anything I think people from Puglia feel more of a cultural and ethnic affinity to the Greeks (other than fellow Italians), like my grandfather did.


    The Iapygians don't really have much sentimental meaning for me, I always considered them just a component or small part of my ancestry. I feel more towards Greece, and Rome. It is all part of the broader Pan-Mediterranean genetic continuum, articulated by the study. My own genetics inform me that I am broadly autochthonous to the Northern Mediterranean basin, specifically around south Italy and the Balkans/Greece.

    Last edited by Jovialis; 02-08-21 at 16:46.

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I seriously doubt that E-V13 in Sicily/South Italy was brought in Early Middle Ages. I thought Messapians were primary candidates due to high E-V13 Z5018 in Apuglia, but now i think Classical Greeks are responsible for a big number, if you check archeological records the Corinthian Greeks and Messapians different on burial rites in that Corinthians used cremation vs inhumation used by Messapi and similar groups.
    Then again you have Ligures in North-West Italy, with probably ~15% of E-V13.
    It might be the e-v13 in the north of italy from germanic tribes Lombards etc....
    And some of it must be from celtic source ....
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

    "Know where you came from and where you are going."

    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    If anything, just start a new thread, and link the old one in the OP.


    TBH, prior to this hobby, I never knew other people were so invested in the Iapygian tribes, especially in regard to their own origins, etc. If anything I think people from Puglia feel more of a cultural and ethnic affinity to the Greeks (other than fellow Italians), like my grandfather did.


    The Iapygians don't really have much sentimental meaning for me, I always considered them just a component or small part of my ancestry. I feel more towards Greece, and Rome. It is all part of the broader Pan-Mediterranean genetic continuum, articulated by the study. My own genetics inform me that I am broadly autochthonous to the Northern Mediterranean basin, specifically around south Italy and the Balkans.

    It is a personal matter I guess, you can feel proud and sentimental with what you so much desire.

    I would think by now as a moderator over the years you would have noticed how contested Albanian connection to Illyrian has been, mainly due to political reasons.

    Also I would think you would have noticed the countless posts about Messapic, very informative ones even from the likes of Johane.

    Least you forget the weekly occurrence of such discussions years back...

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...tic-similarity

    Scroll through the thread and there you have it. One of many threads. Yet, Albanian posters were banned as unscientific nationalists, and such discussions patronaged. Tis one of many threads, but it should bring back the memory of where we started.

    So no wonder, I and I suspect a lot of fellow Albanians would feel vindicated. Don't you agree?
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    It is a personal matter I guess, you can feel proud and sentimental with what you so much desire.

    I would think by now as a moderator over the years you would have noticed how contested Albanian connection to Illyrian has been, mainly due to political reasons.

    Also I would think you would have noticed the countless posts about Messapic, very informative ones even from the likes of Johane.

    Least you forget the weekly occurrence of such discussions years back...

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...tic-similarity

    Scroll through the thread and there you have it. One of many threads. Yet, Albanian posters were banned as unscientific nationalists, and such discussions patronaged. Tis one of many threads, but it should bring back the memory of where we started.

    So no wonder, I and I suspect a lot of fellow Albanians would feel vindicated. Don't you agree?
    Like I said, prior to the hobby, I didn't consider it. (i.e. growing up)

    "TBH, prior to this hobby, I never knew other people were so invested in the Iapygian tribes, especially in regard to their own origins, etc. "

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    ^^Also, to compare Albanians to Berbers is just asinine and underneath it, hateful, both to Albanians, and Berbers. It is t-rolling. I am not denying that.

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    Yep. I see/saw. My points still stand.

    Growing up in the Balkans, being bombarded with politics and racism on daily basis, your experience sounds like a luxury.
    Why it was especially aggravating to see it tolerated in forums with supposedly more enlightened values. I made the mistake of re reading some of the comments of the thread I linked, and gagging a little.

    So yeah, I would imagine it was a culture shock for you to see the shitshows started over genetics and nationalism on this forum over the years.

    Now what I find peculiar is that the thread about Who are the Albanians is closed, while the thread hinting L283 are recent migrants in Albania allowed to stand. I would guess for you it is a minor issue, and peculiar why I would find it so baffling, but trust me from my perspective its disgraceful.

    If posters from different DNA projects insult each other ban them, but no use closing the thread. Either way, I might just create a new discussion, if that one can not be restored.

    Edit: My bad you are registered in 2017, most of the really disgusting discussion where much earlier, when the cost of genetic tests were a barrier to having enough evidence for educated discussions. But overall you catch my drift.

  8. #133
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Yep. I see/saw. My points still stand.

    Growing up in the Balkans, being bombarded with politics and racism on daily basis, your experience sounds like a luxury.
    Why it was especially aggravating to see it tolerated in forums with supposedly more enlightened values. I made the mistake of re reading some of the comments of the thread I linked, and gagging a little.

    So yeah, I would imagine it was a culture shock for you to see the shitshows started over genetics and nationalism on this forum over the years.

    Now what I find peculiar is that the thread about Who are the Albanians is closed, while the thread hinting L283 are recent migrants in Albania allowed to stand. I would guess for you it is a minor issue, and peculiar why I would find it so baffling, but trust me from my perspective its disgraceful.

    If posters from different DNA projects insult each other ban them, but no use closing the thread. Either way, I might just create a new discussion, if that one can not be restored.
    Oh really, and what about the constant idiot t-rolls that harass Italians, especially southern Italians? The countless sock-puppets? The Nordicists, Levantist, Afrocentrics, etc all trying to poison discourse with their own agendas. Instead of trying to find some commonality, you go the opposite direction.

    Yeah, I am happy to have grown up in the Untied States, and I am happy to have become rich here too. I live a better life than most, which I take pride in. I believe in going forward and upward.

    I don't even need to look back on a glorious ancestry, since my life is probably objectively better than the elites of many old civilizations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Oh really, and what about the constant idiot t-rolls that harass Italians, especially southern Italians? The countless sock-puppets? The Nordicists, Levantist, Afrocentrics, etc all trying to poison discourse with their own agendas. Instead of trying to find some commonality, you go the opposite direction.
    I think you know my opinion on this one Jovialis. As I have many times backed you against such asinine discussions. South Italians Middle Eastern, North Italians were Nordics, Romans Nords, Romans Middle Eastern etc. No matter if it was Afrocentrism or Nordicism you know where I stood on such issues. And I can tell you that it was easy, cause of plenty of papers and studies, and the evidence backing the reasonable conclusions.

    Ps: Even when I read my own comments I can see that my tone is quite confrontational. But as I am writing this and the comments before, I guarantee you I am quite calm. Not sure why the posts come out that way

    Edit: here is an emoji, since I am out of upvotes, and meant to give a few.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I think you know my opinion on this one Jovialis. As I have many times backed you against such asinine discussions. South Italians Middle Eastern, North Italians were Nordics, Romans Nords, Romans Middle Eastern etc. No matter if it was Afrocentrism or Nordicism you know where I stood on such issues. And I can tell you that it was easy, cause of plenty of papers and studies, and the evidence backing the reasonable conclusions.

    Ps: Even when I read my own comments I can see that my tone is quite confrontational. But as I am writing this and the comments before, I guarantee you I am quite calm. Not sure why the posts come out that way
    It's all good,

    I always have the back of anyone who is being abused here on this forum. This is no place for hatred, but intellectual discourse.

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    BTW, does anyone know if the files from this study have been posted anywhere? Nothing on ENA it seems. I see that people are examining the Y-DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    It is a personal matter I guess, you can feel proud and sentimental with what you so much desire.

    I would think by now as a moderator over the years you would have noticed how contested Albanian connection to Illyrian has been, mainly due to political reasons.

    Also I would think you would have noticed the countless posts about Messapic, very informative ones even from the likes of Johane.

    Least you forget the weekly occurrence of such discussions years back...

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...tic-similarity

    Scroll through the thread and there you have it. One of many threads. Yet, Albanian posters were banned as unscientific nationalists, and such discussions patronaged. Tis one of many threads, but it should bring back the memory of where we started.

    So no wonder, I and I suspect a lot of fellow Albanians would feel vindicated. Don't you agree?
    Every time I want to laugh , I go back and read these threads. They are like a gift that keeps on giving, I hope they never delete them. Just enjoy .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Basarabi dynasty are of this subclade, so Moldovan J-L283 sample isn't of relevance here. There are also some Albanians in this clade.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y22894/

    Regarding the E-V13:
    Old Svilengrad E-Z1919+/ some said he was already V13+
    Kapitan Andreevo E-L618, surely V13+ on more resolution
    Kapitan Andreevo E-V13
    Moldovan "Scythian" E-FGC44169 , autosomally Getae, shows similiarity to Thraco-Cimmerian Babadag sample
    Bulgaria, LIA E

    Also Bulgaria Late Antiquity E-V13. The fact that random Thracian samples from EIA, LIA, LA belong to the same hg says this hg dominated it. Late Antiquity Viminatium, Daco-Mysian area shows heavy E-V13.

    I warned you that there might be a very sharp border between the J-L283 and E-V13 lands, and these new results point towards such a scenario. These groups which expanded in BA seem to have had pretty exclusive meta-ethnic affiliation:
    R-Z93 is Iranic, nothing else in any meaningful sense
    R-U106 is Germanic, nothing else in any meaningful sense
    R-Z280 Balto-Slavic, nothing else in any meaningful sense
    J-L283 is Illyrian, nothing else in any meaningful sense
    E-V13 is Thracian, nothing else in any meaningful sense...


    origins of J-L283 is in north-caucasus
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    E-V13 might have been strong in South Eastern Urnfield, Gava/Channelled Ware related groups, probably not even in the Gava centre itself, but its cultural descendents on the Balkan. To the North West, there were the Lusatians, which, as a whole, migh thave acquired E-V13 too, but not in this numbers. So coming under pressure or being blocked to the North by related people (Lusatian) and the East (Cimmerian-Scythian), the natural expansion, also economically more promising, was going South, and that's what we see. Just like with the LBA movement with Naue swords before, in which they might or might not have participated already.

    Also, they practically were all over the place South of their cultural relatives and the Urnfield network. Its like in the West with the Western Urnfield groups, which too didn't fight as much into the related network, which also bound together by religious ideas, but into the deep West, into the territory of "infidels", which paved the way for the Celtic sphere later.

    If you partition the various territories they could move into, the Eastern half of Central Europe and South Eastern Europe was the geographically natural expansion for a group from the Eastern Carpathians. Going the same pathways as Slavs did later, with Pannonian and Southern Slavs, practically exactly the same.

    I read in one article something like "Hallstatt cannelure-groups", which basically refers to the Eastern Hallstatt groups with Channelled Ware and these are pretty closely connected to Daco-Thracian people. I agree with Aspurg, that the Pannonian, more Urnfield shifted groups are a different kind of people most likely than the coastal "true Illyrians" and they should be more E-V13 in comparison. Not as much dominated as Thracians, but much more so than the other Illyrians. We see how different Urnfield newcomers being incorporated archaeologically already. Its visible they came as new migrants, but they didn't completley replace the local people, so might have been ethnically assimilated themselves in a lot of places or by later expansions, again like Aspurg said.
    which Halstatt culture...the 1200-900 when the celts mixed with the Illyrians in modern austria .......or ........800-600BC period when they mixed with italic and balkan peoples?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I think you know my opinion on this one Jovialis. As I have many times backed you against such asinine discussions. South Italians Middle Eastern, North Italians were Nordics, Romans Nords, Romans Middle Eastern etc. No matter if it was Afrocentrism or Nordicism you know where I stood on such issues. And I can tell you that it was easy, cause of plenty of papers and studies, and the evidence backing the reasonable conclusions.

    Ps: Even when I read my own comments I can see that my tone is quite confrontational. But as I am writing this and the comments before, I guarantee you I am quite calm. Not sure why the posts come out that way

    Edit: here is an emoji, since I am out of upvotes, and meant to give a few.
    do you mean the Norici of austria

    The Norici and Taurisci were neighboured across the Danube by the vast homeland of the Boii, to the east by the Dacian Racatae and the Illyrian Azali, to the south by the Latovici, Carni, and Ambidravi,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    It is a personal matter I guess, you can feel proud and sentimental with what you so much desire.

    I would think by now as a moderator over the years you would have noticed how contested Albanian connection to Illyrian has been, mainly due to political reasons.

    Also I would think you would have noticed the countless posts about Messapic, very informative ones even from the likes of Johane.

    Least you forget the weekly occurrence of such discussions years back...

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...tic-similarity

    Scroll through the thread and there you have it. One of many threads. Yet, Albanian posters were banned as unscientific nationalists, and such discussions patronaged. Tis one of many threads, but it should bring back the memory of where we started.

    So no wonder, I and I suspect a lot of fellow Albanians would feel vindicated. Don't you agree?
    Sorry for butting in, but most of the posters on that thread are no longer here. I don't see my name anywhere and don't have any memory of participating in it.

    Certainly, I have a "very" clear memory of beating back racist comments against Albanians to the effect that they were late comers to Europe, the descendants of Ottoman Turks etc. etc.

    On the other hand, there definitely were Albanians who were just as racist, only they were racist, or t-rolls, against the Greeks. Pardon me, but as a moderator, this was totally unacceptable; t-rolling is unacceptable no matter who does it, and the identity of the group being t-rolled. Also, anybody in the age of genetics who spams Fallermayer over and over again as an explanation for Greek genetics is indeed an a-scientific, nationalist t-roll.

    The Albanians who were banned on this forum by me were banned for that behavior or for grossly insulting people who disagreed with them, or for other t-rolling behavior. Had I listened to the complaints and requests of many members of this forum I would have banned them all or at least restricted them to the forum for Balkanic disputes. You're apparently unaware of how not only unpopular, but downright infuriating members NOT from the Balkans found the constant degeneration of threads on genetics to t-roll fests.

    Sorry, not going to allow the historical record here to be re-written. What other moderators did before my time I don't know.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Oh V13 is related to cremation, surely, because cremation dominated Thracian groups. However some of these early Thracian groups were not so much practicing it.

    Cremation was not the practice of Illyrians, at least classical Illyrians, as represented by Glasinac-Mati culture, by the Messapians.. It was the practice of Urnfielders, but they were part linguistically of Italic group, then partly Etruscan group and Thracian group in the East. Illyrians were an older MBA layer that existed before the BA collapse, i.e. the J-L283 expansion which occurred in early MBA.

    As many authors stated Urnfielders and Glasinac people were nothing alike, and both of them could not have been Illyrian. These results clearly show that Urnfielders were not real Illyrians. And this can be seen as I ve said in archeological evidence, all of those historical Pannonian Illyrians, they just started speaking Illyrian around 500 BC when the Glasinac people expanded in all directions.

    Also from linguistic evidence Southern core Illyrian group with far less Urnfield influence was more "purely Illyrian", while the Pannonian group with heavy Urnfield influence had lots of Venetic influences, so this was apparent long time ago. Liburnians were their remnant.

    Situation with V13 complicates also the fact that there were Thraco-Cimmerian influences in Liburnian areas as well! So some V13 presence there that is seemingly Urnfield may be Thraco-Cimmerian..
    I have never seen any of this

    The illyrians as per modern populations 70 % are in Croatia and Bosnia lands ..............another 10% or so are in Montenegro and cease at the Drin river ( northern Albania ) as per many scholars state

    If you are Bosnian, your studies must show you what is the bulk of ydna markers in your lands ............Croatia has less than 4% of E-V13

    Granted , slavic, gothic and other markers have influenced the area

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    To conclude ............the paper states, the daunians had no Greek admixture , gained roman admixture circa 250BC ..................when they arrived they had affinity to Croatian people ..............and does not say they had affinity to Bosnian, Montengrian or Albanian people ...................and they came from the north-adriatic coast

    If people have a problem with this ..............write to the authors of the paper and let them know they are wrong

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    To conclude ............the paper states, the daunians had no Greek admixture , gained roman admixture circa 250BC ..................when they arrived they had affinity to Croatian people ..............and does not say they had affinity to Bosnian, Montengrian or Albanian people ...................and they came from the north-adriatic coast

    If people have a problem with this ..............write to the authors of the paper and let them know they are wrong
    How Bosnian, Montengrian, and Albanian people are ruled out by the paper?


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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    which Halstatt culture...the 1200-900 when the celts mixed with the Illyrians in modern austria .......or ........800-600BC period when they mixed with italic and balkan peoples?
    Hallstatt doesn't really start before 800, but this is what I wrote about the Channelled Ware, with some important quotations. We have proof of Psenicevo in Bulgaria being heavily E-V13, based on the leak we got. So I tried to investigate whether they can be connected with my Channelled Ware horizon theory for E-V13, as for the whole Incised Pottery groups of the region:

    Going deeper, I see the big impact of Fluted Ware (= Channelled Ware, "Cannelure Hallstatt" in this article), as its called for Bulgaria in particular, which is part of the Channelled Ware horizon and related, at least culturally, to the centre of Gava:

    The Zimnicea-Novgrad is considered as a totally different entity in comparison with the other groups, i. e. the Cannelure Hallstatt community (Gumă 1995: 109), especially for its burial rite. But, the basic type of Zimnicea-Novgrad pottery ornamentation is cannelure, or fluted ornamentation (Alexandrescu 1978: 117-119; Gumă 1995: 131, pl. XIII). According to A. Alexandrescu, the cannelures are regular dcor of Zimnicea-Novgrad cups (Alexandrescu 1978: 117). Also, these cups (or mugs) are the basic type of Zimnicea-Novgrad pottery; they have the form of truncated cone or hemisphere. M. Guma said that the cups with higher and flat handles (of Zimnicea-Novgrad A. R.), decorated by longitudinal flutes are similar with those from Vajuga representing the second stage of the Hinova-Mala Vrbica group (Gumă 1995: 110).
    So, in spite of presence of some incised ornamentation, it seems more plausible that Zimnicea-Novgrad culture belonged to the "cultures with fluted ornamentation of pottery". The first researcher of Zimnicea cemetery compared its ceramics with such cultures of "cannelure Hallstatt" as Vyrtop, Meri, Suseni (Alexandrescu 1978: 123).
    But there was also this group:

    But, Saharna-Solonceni culture is characterized by almost total absence of fluted ornamentation (Кашуба 2000: 313). Fluted ornamentation is very rare in the Kozia culture also (Laszlo 1972: 214-215; Iconomu 1996). Thus, we cannot suppose that Zimnicea-Novgrad took part in the genesis Saharna-Solonceni or Kozia cultures.
    However:

    The Sboreanovo group is defined usually as part of Cultures with Stamped ornamentation of Pottery of Northern Bulgaria. Fluted ornamentation of pottery, however, is also a typical or even dominant feature for Sboreanovo group (Гоцев, Шалганова 2004: 60-61; Czyborra 2005: 173). Besides, the main type of Sboreanovo vessel (Czyborra 2005: 99-101) is the so called cantaros (as well as Zimnicea-Plovdiv pottery (Alexandrescu 1973: 77-78, 81)). The cantaros is a big vessel with two handles and open mouth; this kind of vessel is found neither in Kozia, nor in Saharna-Solonceni.
    Evidently, it looks more probable that the Vyrbitsa tradition of bronze axes production was brought into the Carpathian-Dniester region by some population belonging to the "cannelure Hallstatt" community. It could be the Hinova-Mala Vrbica group. It seems to be a more preferable idea, as we see some other metalware (bracelets and fibulas) in the Carpathian-Dniester region that seem to be associated with the coming of Hinova-Mala Vrbica population. The Hinova-Mala Vrbica group made a substantial contribution to the origin of Kishinev-Korlateni culture (Guma 1995: 108).

    There is some other argument to this idea. As it follows from the mapping of V. A. Dergachev, the axes with vertical lines were spread in three areas chiefly: in central and western parts of Northern Bulgaria, in the Carpathian-Dniester region and in Transylvania in the area of Gava culture (Dergacev 2002: 167-169, taf.123), The Gava culture is a culture with fluted ornamentation of pottery too.
    It is really important that axes with vertical lines from the Carpathian-Dniester region and Transylvania have a special ring at the back side. This distinguishes them from the Bulgarian variant of axes with vertical lines. The Bulgarian variant of axes with vertical lines has no rings (as V. A. Dergachev points out, isolated evidences of axes with ring were found in Northern Bulgaria) (Dergacev 2002: 168, taf.123).
    But axes with vertical lines from area of Hinova-Mala Vrbica group have this ring as well.
    V. A. Dergachev suggested that these axes with vertical lines and a special ring appeared as a result of some synthesis of Transylvania and Northern Bulgaria metalwork traditions (Дергачев 1997: 58; Dergacev 2002: 168).
    Where did this synthesis take place? We can suppose that it was the Hinova-Mala Vrbica area.
    Thus, the axes with vertical lines and a special ring were spread in the cultures with fluted ornamentation of pottery mainly. And, as it results from the mapping (Dergacev 2002: taf. 123;
    I think that all these facts bring the idea that sickles and axes of Vyrbitsa type spread in the Carpathian-Dniester region simultaneously. It was in the first half of Ha A1, when Noua culture was replaced by Kishinev-Korlateni (see: Дергачев, Бочкарев 2002: 236). And just the Kishinev-Korlateni people brought this tradition.
    It was pointed out that an axe and a piece of casting-form of Vyrbitsa tradition were found in the Radovanu settlement (Uşurelu 2003: 216). The Radovanu facies (or Late Koslogeny culture, as many researchers refer to it) is supposed to be the ancestor of Cultures with Incised Ornamentation of Pottery community in the Lower Danube and Carpathian-Dniester regions (including such early groups as Sihleanu-Rimnicele, Tamaoani, Holerkani-Hanska, Balta). Thus, this is considered as evidence that early groups of Cultures with Incised Ornamentation of Pottery community in the Lower Danube region were a main and direct heir of the Vyrbitsa metalwork tradition (Uşurelu 2003: 217).
    But more important is the fact that in Dobruja and Muntenia "the Late Bronze Age tradition of metal production came abruptly to the end simultaneously with the end of Koslogeny culture and with penetration of Pre-Babadag or Babadag I here" (Дергачев 1997: 50).
    So, it looks like the Babadag culture was a newcomer in the Lower Danube area.
    https://www.academia.edu/4338117/Axe...es_Ha_A_Ha_B1_

    A new period in Thrace, referred to as the Early Iron Age, started with general changes in many aspects of the local Late Bronze Age culture: pottery style, burial rites, and metal types. At the same time, all of the features of this period bear similarities to the previous period, supporting the theory of a gradual, though short transition between the two ages. The first phase of the Early Iron Age, called Fluted ware horizon, started with the LH IIIC period and continued through the Protogeometric period, according to Aegean periodisation. The LH IIIC is still the Late Bronze Age in the Aegean, and following the direction of the spread of iron technology from south to north, it would be more correct to consider this phase a transitional period than a real Iron Age. The horizon of the fluted ware is characterised by decreased contacts with the Aegean region. Simultaneously Thrace became strongly dependent on the Carpatho-Danubian region because of its potential to provide metal sources. This development is most visible in the new pottery style that appeared throughout Thrace. At this time, limited traces of migration are visible in the archaeological records, both within Thrace (the cremation burial at Manole) and from Thrace (the site of Troia), with movement in the direction northwest to southeast. The real Iron Age starts with the next phase, called Psenicevo, when contacts with the Aegean were restored and became more evident than ever before. Thrace became part of the geometric koine, recalling the situation during the Late Bronze Age.

    On the other hand, Psenicevo is very similar to the Ostrov, Basarabi and Babadag groups to the north and should be contemporary with them. In general, the first stage of Psenicevo should be synchronised with Ostrov and Babadag II, and the second stage with Basarabi and Babadag III. These pottery styles mark the geometric koine during the Early Iron Age, a result of restored contacts between the Balkans and the Aegean region, as well as the return of Greece and Anatolia to a leading role during this period.
    https://www.academia.edu/7794465/Thr...ures_in_Thrace

    The issue is, that the Channelled Ware horizon encompassed practically all areas which later appear E-V13 heavy and gave birth to Incised Ware groups or at least heavily influenced them. Psenicova, with its proven presence of high levels of E-V13, just proves that "it happened" at that time already, which was a given, because the Fluted Ware horizon rolled over the country before. But this doesn't answer the question as to whether E-V13 was part of a Gava subgroup, a Belegis subgroup, or another one taking part in the Channelled Ware horizon. It just proves that after the Channelled Ware horizon, unlike before, E-V13 was present and strong in areas like Svilengrad, in groups like Psenicevo. That's like looking at post-Bell Beaker cultures and stating that R1b was now in Western Europe. My guess is that for most of the regions involved the Channelled/Fluted Ware horizon and early Hallstatt were for E-V13 similar to Bell Beakers for R1b in Western Europe.

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sorry for butting in, but most of the posters on that thread are no longer here. I don't see my name anywhere and don't have any memory of participating in it.

    Certainly, I have a "very" clear memory of beating back racist comments against Albanians to the effect that they were late comers to Europe, the descendants of Ottoman Turks etc. etc.

    On the other hand, there definitely were Albanians who were just as racist, only they were racist, or t-rolls, against the Greeks. Pardon me, but as a moderator, this was totally unacceptable; t-rolling is unacceptable no matter who does it, and the identity of the group being t-rolled. Also, anybody in the age of genetics who spams Fallermayer over and over again as an explanation for Greek genetics is indeed an a-scientific, nationalist t-roll.

    The Albanians who were banned on this forum by me were banned for that behavior or for grossly insulting people who disagreed with them, or for other t-rolling behavior. Had I listened to the complaints and requests of many members of this forum I would have banned them all or at least restricted them to the forum for Balkanic disputes. You're apparently unaware of how not only unpopular, but downright infuriating members NOT from the Balkans found the constant degeneration of threads on genetics to t-roll fests.

    Sorry, not going to allow the historical record here to be re-written. What other moderators did before my time I don't know.
    Certainly true Angela.

    Even I deserved bans at times, and rightfully got them more often then not.. Precisely for disagreements with some Greek members early on after I registered, before I became a veteran of these troll games. Was mostly an observer before and saw no point in posting, mainly hit eupedia researching history and genetics.

    Thing is it would be hard to say anyone is unbiased, even you. Mods on this forum have been far more cordial with Greek tolls than Albanian ones. As far as I am concerned the ban hammer should be equally heavy.
    Nik and Laberia got perma banned cause of Parapolitikos bullsh*t and toll baits and provocations. Yet, as I mentioned couple of posts up, his thread is the only active post on Albanians, cause again Greek tolls are tolerated, meanwhile the Who are the Albanians thread got closed cause of different genetic projects taking their grievances out in public.

    People saying 1/10th of what has been said about Albanians/ and representative haplogroups, about Italians or Greeks would immediately get flamed out of this forum. I have seen so myself, especially when some dubious accounts with western flags would comment on south Italians being MENAs.

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    How Bosnian, Montengrian, and Albanian people are ruled out by the paper?


    Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum

    because they do not match with the Daunians

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    BTW, does anyone know if the files from this study have been posted anywhere? Nothing on ENA it seems. I see that people are examining the Y-DNA.

    The BAM files are not out yet. People have been doing what analysis they can through the addendums of the preprint. Data 1 Tab C seems to be where they base their analysis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    because they do not match with the Daunians
    Why are you so stubborn?

    The paper states there is some connection with Croatian Iron Age sample, by Croatian it just means geographic connotation. Not modern Croatian population.

    And they were not related to Cetina Culture, whoever Cetina were J2b2-L283 came slightly later after Cetina ceased to exist(i think 2200-2000 B.C), i suspect the late Cetina might have been some Yamnaya males R1b-Z2103 older clades mated with Cetina females. The original Cetina people might have been G2a as was the norm of Neolithic Europe.

    And yes, as Riverman has already been explaining, Cetina Culture = E-V13 is a dead hypothesis as well. The oldest E-V13 subclades started branching in Alps => Carpathian mountain corridor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Why are you so stubborn?

    The paper states there is some connection with Croatian Iron Age sample, by Croatian it just means geographic connotation. Not modern Croatian population.

    And they were not related to Cetina Culture, whoever Cetina were J2b2-L283 came slightly later after Cetina ceased to exist(i think 2200-2000 B.C), i suspect the late Cetina might have been some Yamnaya males R1b-Z2103 older clades mated with Cetina females. The original Cetina people might have been G2a as was the norm of Neolithic Europe.

    And yes, as Riverman has already been explaining, Cetina Culture = E-V13 is a dead hypothesis as well. The oldest E-V13 subclades started branching in Alps => Carpathian mountain corridor.

    it states




    Do you think the authors do not know about Bosnia, Montenegro and Albania !

    if these daunians had affinity with these , they would have said it

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