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Thread: The genetic origin of Daunians

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    This is absolutely based on nothing. But my intuition has me thinking maybe the people inhabiting (part of) the Italian peninsula during and before this period could have been Sardinian like. I am not to familiar with BA Sardinian genetics, but if they are close to Myceneans, this could be an interesting speculation. I know Myceneans had some non negligible Steppe, but I am saying barring that component.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    No, perhaps they were Balkanites that mixed with a pre-Italic people, and spread north out of Salento. The excerpt said they captured a pre-Italic town that was founded in the Bronze age.
    the daunians where the biggest group of the 3 , with messapic 2nd................i have been saying they mixed with local proto-umbri for a while.................they all spoke the same language , which does not mean much

    umbri sub-tribes are the most in central and southern italy
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    the daunians where the biggest group of the 3 , with messapic 2nd................i have been saying they mixed with local proto-umbri for a while.................they all spoke the same language , which does not mean much

    umbri sub-tribes are the most in central and southern italy




    Isoptopes only indicate the Daunians are from Croatia

  4. #179
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    Maybe I have a piece of all three tribes in me, … unless they are all the same :)
    (Dauni - Peuceti - Messapi)

    … from MyHeritage:

    🕷️

  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    Maybe I have a piece of all three tribes in me, … unless they are all the same :)
    (Dauni - Peuceti - Messapi)
    … from MyHeritage:

    looks like, not daunian but other 2, yes

  6. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post



    Isoptopes only indicate the Daunians are from Croatia
    The Iapodes were totally different tribe from Iapyges. So the similarity in name might be just coincidence.

    Iapodes practiced cremation in urns, while Iapyges had totally different material culture. Though they might come from Croatian coast why not. There is no decisive answer for that. Per material culture they are related with Matt-Painted Pottery Culture from South Albania. Though this connection might be controversial, there was a lot of influences like Proto-Geometric motives, ascos with water bird motives and etc, etc.

    But there is no doubt that Daunians came from somewhere from East Adriatic coast. So, let's put it like this, the southernmost axis being Southern Albania and the northernmost axis being Croatian coastline, everything in between is possible, from where exactly it's not easy to determine.
    Last edited by Hawk; 04-08-21 at 10:03.

  7. #182
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    looks like, not daunian but other 2, yes
    @Torzio … the Dauni too :)

    myheritage features Timeline / Zoom maps.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think we really need to also see samples from the Messapii


    "The origin of the Messapii is debated. The most credited theory is that they came from Illyria as one of the Illyrian tribes who settled in Apulia and that they emerged as a sub-tribe distinct from the rest of the Iapyges. It seems that the Iapyges spread northwards from the Salento.[8][9]
    The pre-Italic settlement of Gnatia was founded in the fifteenth century BC during the Bronze Age. It was captured and settled by the Iapyges, as they occupied large tracts of territory in Apulia. The Messapii developed a distinct identity from the Iapyges. Rudiae was first settled from the late ninth or early eighth centuries BC. In the late sixth century BC, it developed into a much more important settlement. It flourished under the Messapii, but after their defeat by Rome it dwindled and became a small village. The nearby Lupiae (Lecce) flourished at its expense. The Messapi did not have a centralised form of government. Their towns were independent city-states. They had trade relationships with the Greek cities of Magna Graecia."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapians


    I wonder if the so-called "foreign" father of ORD001, was a Messapian, and took a Daunian wife, ORD009.

    Who were the original pre-Italic inhabitants of places like Gnatia? I think the answer is key to understanding the genetics of Puglia, and the south of Italy.

    My guess is that they were C6...

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Who were the original pre-Italic inhabitants of places like Gnatia? I think the answer is key to understanding the genetics of Puglia, and the south of Italy.

    My guess is that they were C6...
    Out of curiosity where do Sardinians fall in that PCA? C6 or?
    I am more interested in ancient Sardinians where they would fall.

    Have a gut feeling the population of Peninsular Italy must have been unique before all these colonizations. And only Sardinian like populations seem unique and old enough to my uninformed opinion. Might as well ask someone who has a clue about this. So I am all ears.

  10. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Out of curiosity where do Sardinians fall in that PCA? C6 or?
    I am more interested in ancient Sardinians where they would fall.

    Have a gut feeling the population of Peninsular Italy must have been unique before all these colonizations. And only Sardinian like populations seem unique and old enough to my uninformed opinion. Might as well ask someone who has a clue about this. So I am all ears.
    According to this graph by Antônio et al 2019, the Sardinians are a separate group, the C2, similar to Anatolia N.


  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duarte View Post
    According to this graph by Antônio te al 2019, the Sardinians are a separate group, the C2, similar to Anatolia N.

    Wow. Did not except that. Thanks Duarte.

    How is that even possible? I would expect Sardinia to be high in WHG. But similar to Anatolia_N... nope.

    Edit: Actually never realized Anatolia_N is so western shifted... (If I interpret the PCA right, that further west than Spanish and French?) Okay, this makes even less sense now.

  12. #187
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    Since editing doesn't work after the first attempt. Would this not mean that people have been bullsh*ting when they say some ancient sample is "eastern shifted" because it has Anatolian_N? If anything Anatolia_N looks as western as WHG on that graph.

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Who were the original pre-Italic inhabitants of places like Gnatia? I think the answer is key to understanding the genetics of Puglia, and the south of Italy.

    My guess is that they were C6...

    since the bulk ( 90% plus ) of Central and south italy ( not sicily or sardinia ) is either etruscan or Umbrian sub-tribes , then C6 is the best

    From studies ....it is stated the Umbri came into italy circa 2200BC from the modern Czech-Austrian border areas

  14. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    @Torzio … the Dauni too :)

    myheritage features Timeline / Zoom maps.




    so do you keep the tradition of tattooing oneself ............like your ancestors the daunians who got it from the celts ...and as other Illyrians did !!!!!

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Wow. Did not except that. Thanks Duarte.

    How is that even possible? I would expect Sardinia to be high in WHG. But similar to Anatolia_N... nope.

    Edit: Actually never realized Anatolia_N is so western shifted... (If I interpret the PCA right, that further west than Spanish and French?) Okay, this makes even less sense now.
    100% Anatolia neolitich is impossible. There is about 10% Steppe and 10% Iran Neo in modern Sardinians (Marcus et al.)


    Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The Iapodes were totally different tribe from Iapyges. So the similarity in name might be just coincidence.

    Iapodes practiced cremation in urns, while Iapyges had totally different material culture. Though they might come from Croatian coast why not. There is no decisive answer for that. Per material culture they are related with Matt-Painted Pottery Culture from South Albania. Though this connection might be controversial, there was a lot of influences like Proto-Geometric motives, ascos with water bird motives and etc, etc.

    But there is no doubt that Daunians came from somewhere from East Adriatic coast. So, let's put it like this, the southernmost axis being Southern Albania and the northernmost axis being Croatian coastline, everything in between is possible, from where exactly it's not easy to determine.
    I have seen that they are the same tribe in many papers/books ...check for yourself

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes

    the only place we see iapyges as a separate tribe/people is that they are a illyrian/thracian mix of people in northern Dacia ( i would not be surprised if they where also a bit of celt in that group )

    The only period that the messapians and daunians mixed with Greek, Albainia, Epirus people occurred in trade from 400BC until their demise in 250BC ...................the 600years earlier , that is from 440BC to 1000BC as per the paper had zero greek mixing

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    so do you keep the tradition of tattooing oneself ............like your ancestors the daunians who got it from the celts ...and as other Illyrians did !!!!!
    How is your ink status?
    I’m probably closer to a Taranta than a Celt,

    … no disrespect to the Tarante, … and the Celts :)

  18. #193
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    Something I find to be strange, the paper for the Mycenaeans determined that there was generally continuity from them to the Modern Greeks, despite being pulled "east" of them. Yet the Iron Age Apulians, compared to the modern Apulians despite being just as close or even closer are considered radically different? Why? Is this some kind of subjectivity from the authors?


    The Daunians also seem to be just about as "North West" from Modern Apulians, as Iron Age Latins, and Etruscans are from Modern Northern Italians.
    Last edited by Jovialis; 05-08-21 at 15:31.

  19. #194
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    We have a Polish L283 guy on our L283 Facebook page who matches 2 of the 3 L283 Daunian samples more closely than any living samples on the YFull YTree. Pretty cool.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS8364*/

  20. #195
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    Meant to address this earlier. The archaeological site of Ordona, at the foot of the Daunian mountains, is indeed in the province of Foggia, as I originally stated, and Lucera, also in the province of Foggia, where Frederick II exiled many of the Muslims of Sicily, is near by. In addition to the no doubt many converts, some descendants of the original Muslim invaders would have been part of the group.

    These people were again exiled or sold into slavery, but no doubt some influence remained, to be diluted eventually by admixture with the locals. This would partly explain the early Middle Ages samples which pull further "east" than modern Apulians.

    Posts from certain members should definitely be considered dubious until fact checked.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Meant to address this earlier. The archaeological site of Ordona, at the foot of the Daunian mountains, is indeed in the province of Foggia, as I originally stated, and Lucera, also in the province of Foggia, where Frederick II exiled many of the Muslims of Sicily, is near by. In addition to the no doubt many converts, some descendants of the original Muslim invaders would have been part of the group.

    These people were again exiled or sold into slavery, but no doubt some influence remained, to be diluted eventually by admixture with the locals. This would partly explain the early Middle Ages samples which pull further "east" than modern Apulians.

    Posts from certain members should definitely be considered dubious until fact checked.
    Indeed, the population there was shifted by these events, there were also mass exiles of other groups. The city was razed, and population depleted by Catholic armies. The contribution ultimately would have been very small, less than 10,000 at best. I also think it could be some remaining C5 samples from the late Empire, before eventually being phased out by C6 samples in the middle ages.

  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Something I find to be strange, the paper for the Mycenaeans determined that there was generally continuity from them to the Modern Greeks, despite being pulled "east" of them. Yet the Iron Age Apulians, compared to the modern Apulians despite being just as close or even closer are considered radically different? Why? Is this some kind of subjectivity from the authors?


    The Daunians also seem to be just about as "North West" from Modern Apulians, as Iron Age Latins, and Etruscans are from Modern Northern Italians.





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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    100% Anatolia neolitich is impossible. There is about 10% Steppe and 10% Iran Neo in modern Sardinians (Marcus et al.)


    Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk
    Cato: Perhaps Figure 2 should also be considered. If you look at it, it shows that during the Neolithic, populations went from exclusively WHG to Anatolian Farmer+Iran Neolithic + WHG which is consistent with what Marcus et al 2020 regarding Anatolian EEF and Iran_NEO. Antonio et al 2019 clearly shows Steppe ancestry arriving in Lazio in Iron Age. The paper does not have Bronze Age samples from Lazio and the Copper Age ones that they analyze have not Steppe. Now, that does not mean there was no Steppe in Lazio by the Copper Age, could be just a sampling issue such that the samples studied in this paper just do not have any. However, the Marcus et al 2020 paper did not document any Steppe ancestry in Sardinia during the Bronze age.


    "From the Middle Neolithic onward until the beginning of the first millennium BC, we do not find evidence for gene flow from distinct ancestries into Sardinia. That stability contrasts with
    many other parts of Europe which had experienced substantial gene flow from central Eurasian Steppe ancestry starting about 3000 BCE11,12 and also with many earlier Neolithic and Copper
    age populations across mainland Europe, where local admixture increased WHG ancestry substantially over time10. We observed remarkable constancy of WHG ancestry (close to 17%) from the
    Middle Neolithic to the Nuragic period. While we cannot exclude influx from genetically similar populations (e.g., early Iberian Bell Beakers), the absence of Steppe ancestry suggests genetic isolation
    from many Bronze Age mainland populations—including later Iberian Bell Beakers13. As further support, the Y haplogroup R1b- M269, the most frequent present-day western European haplogroup
    and associated with expansions that brought Steppe ancestry into Britain13 and Iberia14 about 2500–2000 BCE, remains absent in our Sardinian sample through the Nuragic period (1200–1000 BCE)."


    Fernandes et al 2020 finds results in line with both Antonio et al 2019 and Marcus et al 2020. From the paper:


    "In Sardinia, we observed clustering with mainland European Early and Middle Neolithic farmers from the beginning of the Neolithic to the end of the Bronze Age.....The two Iron Age individuals did not form a clade (Supplementary Table 11)—Sardinia_IA10366 (391–209 cal. bc) has evidence of Iranian-related ancestry, whereas Sardinia_IAI16163 (762–434 cal. bc) has evidence of steppe ancestry"


    Addendum to my post: Jovialis had Figure 2 in his post #197 above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Polska View Post
    We have a Polish L283 guy on our L283 Facebook page who matches 2 of the 3 L283 Daunian samples more closely than any living samples on the YFull YTree. Pretty cool.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-CTS8364*/
    L283 is found in Dalmatia from Cetina culture ..........origins of L283 are from the north Caucasus

    it is also found in Etruscan and Rome area after Dalmatia


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post





    did you use this paper in determining anything ?

    https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/bitstr...mery_Final.pdf

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