The genetic origin of Daunians

[torzio]

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...498v1.full.pdf

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...07.30.454498v1

for Salento

[kingjohn]

thanks for sharing

y dna ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

ORD004- r1b-m269
ORD011-r1b-p312
SGR002-r1b-m269
ORD014-j2b2 -L283
SAL001-J2B -M241
SAL010-J2B M241
ORD019-I2D-Z2093
SAL011-I2D-M223
SGR001-I1-M253


regions of samples :

https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png

[blevins13]

thanks for sharing

y dna ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

ORD004- r1b-m269
ORD011-r1b-p312
SGR002-r1b-m269
ORD014-j2b2 -L283
SAL001-J2B -M241
SAL010-J2B M241
ORD019-I2D-Z2093
SAL011-I2D-M223
SGR001-I1-M253


regions of samples :

https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png

Great two Illyrian samples.


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[Jovialis]

thanks for sharing

y dna ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

ORD004- r1b-m269
ORD011-r1b-p312
SGR002-r1b-m269
ORD014-j2b2 -L283
SAL001-J2B -M241
SAL010-J2B M241
ORD019-I2D-Z2093
SAL011-I2D-M223
SGR001-I1-M253


regions of samples :

https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png

I think it is possible this is where my paternal-lineage comes from.

[Pax Augusta]

thanks for sharing

y dna ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

ORD004- r1b-m269
ORD011-r1b-p312
SGR002-r1b-m269
ORD014-j2b2 -L283
SAL001-J2B -M241
SAL010-J2B M241
ORD019-I2D-Z2093
SAL011-I2D-M223
SGR001-I1-M253


regions of samples :

https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png

Of these samples, how many are Daunians?

Earliest Messapic inscriptions in italy begin in 7th century BC.

This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.

[Archetype0ne]

Of these samples, how many are Daunians?







This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.

1. All of them supposedly. This study solely focused on Daunians.
2. Totally agree. Daunians might have been there much earlier for all we know.

[kingjohn]

Of these samples, how many are Daunians?
This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.

SGR001 is dated to early midiveal 670-774Ad and he show along with ORD010
Some move thowrds near east in pca according to paper... ( page 5)


P.s
I don't think he is daunian even his y haplogroup is I1 a nordic haplogroup...
The other ones in the list above supposed to be daunian dated from 1157bc-275bc

[Jovialis]

SGR001 is dated to early midiveal 670-774Ad and he show along with ORD010
Some move thowrds near east in pca according to paper... ( page 5)

P.s
I don't think he is daunian even his y haplogroup is I1 a nordic haplogroup...
The other ones in the list above supposed to be daunian dated from 1157bc-275bc

He could be a desendant of moorish admixed people who were relocated to the Foggia region, prior to the ethnic cleansing.

[kingjohn]

He could be a desendant of moorish admixed people who were relocated to the Foggia region, prior to the ethnic cleansing.

Could be
Did someone uploaded him to gedmatch ?
What are his k12b values ?
Did he show high northwest african % ?

P.s
Did normans were in this region ( given his y haplogroup)
Or the dates of him are much before there arrival

[torzio]

He could be a desendant of moorish admixed people who were relocated to the Foggia region, prior to the ethnic cleansing.

where did you get Moorish from ??

Moors are basically Berbers that became Arabinized after the Arabs invaded NW Africa


Early Medieval individual (SGR001 (670 - 774) calCE (95.4%)) belonging to haplogroup I1-M253, which is common in Northern Europe and previously also detected in a 6th Century Langobard burial from North Italy.

SGR001 — San Giovanni Rotondo — Date 1285 ± 23 BP; 670 - 774 calCE — Haplogroups U3a - I1-M253 — Genome coverage 0.044 — # of SNPs 59,213

San Giovanni Rotondo The San Giovanni Rotondo samples come from the osteo-archaeological collection of the Museum of Anthropology of the University of Padova and are not associated to any further record with the exception of a broad “Iron Age” archaeological label and may be part of the samples brought to the Museum by Prof. Santo Tiné in the 1960s

Looks more Lombard to me ............moving south after the Lombards went to Italy and took it from the Ostrogoths and then established southern Italy as Lombard , especially areas like Benevento region in Italy

[torzio]

Of these samples, how many are Daunians?







This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.

paper separates them into

[torzio]

thanks for sharing

y dna ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

ORD004- r1b-m269
ORD011-r1b-p312
SGR002-r1b-m269
ORD014-j2b2 -L283
SAL001-J2B -M241
SAL010-J2B M241
ORD019-I2D-Z2093
SAL011-I2D-M223
SGR001-I1-M253


regions of samples :

https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png

if we add the ancient croatian paper samples from august........

we report new whole-genome data for 28 individuals dated to between ~ 4700 BCE–400 CE from two sites in present-day eastern Croatia.
In the Middle Neolithic we evidence first cousin mating practices and strong genetic continuity
from the Early Neolithic. In the Middle Bronze Age community that we studied, we find multiple
closely related males suggesting a patrilocal social organisation. We also find in that community an
unexpected genetic ancestry profile distinct from individuals found at contemporaneous sites in the
region, due to the addition of hunter-gatherer-related ancestry. These findings support archaeological
evidence for contacts with communities further north in the Carpathian Basin. Finally, an individual
dated to Roman times exhibits an ancestry profile that is broadly present in the region today, adding
an important data point to the substantial shift in ancestry that occurred in the region between the
Bronze Age and today.


8 x G2a ydna
2 x I2a ydna
1 x R1b
1 X J
1 x C


so ancient Illyrians have G2a, I2a, J2b and R1b as majority ..................clearly G2a is in majority

[Hawk]

Yeah, very interesting, so it looks the original Daunians/Messapians/Iapyges were J2b2-L283 and R1b-M269.

As for E-V13 not being found, it's more and more clear it's related with the cremation burials introduction in Balkans, so partial Illyrians who practiced cremation on a pyre, Thracians, and probably many of those E-V13 Z5018 in Apuglia is of Greek origin with some being recent Albanian migration.

[kingjohn]

Yeah, very interesting, so it looks the original Daunians/Messapians/Iapyges were J2b2-L283 and R1b-M269.

As for E-V13 not being found, it's more and more clear it's related with the cremation burials introduction in Balkans, so partial Illyrians who practiced cremation on a pyre, Thracians, and probably many of those E-V13 Z5018 in Apuglia is of Greek origin with some being recent Albanian migration.

very likely
at the moment
the source in modern south italy must be anicent greek colonies

p.s
let us wait for the anicent campanian dna paper i predict there would be some
e-v13 but i might be wrong

[Hawk]

very likely
at the moment
the source must be anicent greek colonies

p.s
let us wait for the anicent campanian dna paper i predict there would be some
e-v13 but i might be wrong

The Matt-Painted Pottery Culture was older than Late Bronze Age in South-East Italy and those were the assimilated people by Daunians/Messapians/Iapyges, so Illyrians didn't bring Matt-Painted Pottery Culture and didn't come via South Albania, probably the J2b2-L283 came via Dalmatia considering that Iapodes living in North Adriatic have very similar name to Iapyges. But then again this is the confusing part, Iapodes used cremation urns something which Iapyges never did.

Burial customs comparisons are the most robust way of comparing ancient cultures since they will be last thing a culture will change. Remember, the only reason we saw E-V13 in Iron Age Bulgaria was that the ritual pits were secondary burials, and those were either human sacrifices or criminals otherwise the Psenicevo-Babadag Culture used cremation as primary burial?!(not 100% sure about this though, need to check).

[Archetype0ne]

:)

Very much in line with the rumored North Albania samples.

...

I hope Parapoitikos is not having a seizure trying to fit these new facts into his idiotheories.

[Johane Derite]

Earliest Messapic inscriptions in italy begin in 7th century BC.

[Johane Derite]

Earliest Messapic inscriptions in italy begin in 7th century BC.

Sorry, correction: the earliest Messapic inscriptions date from the mid-6th century BC,
So ~550 BC.
Linguist Leonard Palmer attributed the Messapic language (which he called plainly Illyrian) to a third migration wave into Italy of people who brought horse-riding as opposed to horse-driving, and were horse breeders.
The first wave he says were Italic cremators who came into italy by land via the north, the second wave he calls osco-umbrian inhumers who also crossed the adriatic.
This third "easternizing" wave he attributes messapic to he says culminated around ~750 BC.

[Johane Derite]

Some amazing results. Fantastic to have L283 and R1b-M269 confirmed.

I now hope for a paper like this of Apulia, where the epicentre of Messapic language inscriptions is

[blevins13]

Some amazing results. Fantastic to have L283 and R1b-M269 confirmed.

I now hope for a paper like this of Apulia, where the epicentre of Messapic language inscriptions is

Chances are you will get similar results.


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[Hawk]

Glasinac-Mat Culture: J2b2-L283

Trebeniste Culture (not Matt-Painted Pottery Culture): E-V13

i guess. Let's see.

[Palermo Trapani]

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...498v1.full.pdf

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...07.30.454498v1

for Salento

Nice Find Torzio. Very interesting paper.

Salento might find some relatives among the sample.

[Salento]

Nice Find Torzio. Very interesting paper.

Salento might find some relatives among the sample.

It’s very possible :)

… the Dauni are geographically closer to Jovialis, … I’m from the Messapii area of Puglia, though the Iapygians (Dauni, Peucetii and Messapi) all spoke Messapico (supposedly).

[Palermo Trapani]

It’s very possible :)

… the Dauni are geographically closer to Jovialis, … I’m from the Messapii area of Puglia, though the Iapygians (Dauni, Peucetii and Messapi) all spoke Messapico (supposedly).

Ok, thanks for that information. Looking at the geographic sites, they are all from Ordono, Salapia and San Giovanni Rotondo closer to Campania border rather than Salento part of Apulia on Southern Heel. Makes sense, thanks for making note of that. So Jovialis could be the one more likely to find some ancient relatives.

One of the samples from Salapia (SAL011) is Y-DNA I-M223 (I2d-M223) so that is kind of interesting to me on a personal note, although beyond being I-M223, Don't know much more about my subclade (eventually will have to do Big-Y).

Thanks again, PT

[torzio]

It’s very possible :)

… the Dauni are geographically closer to Jovialis, … I’m from the Messapii area of Puglia, though the Iapygians (Dauni, Peucetii and Messapi) all spoke Messapico (supposedly).

As I have been saying for many year ...........Daunians and the other messapic linguistic tribes come from the north-adriatic

Within the described Pan Mediterranean landscape, the IAA/Daunians show a compelling 264
heterogeneity, and the highest genetic affinity to Republican Romans and Iron Age Croatians,

ironage croatians are the Liburnians
Italian historians always stated Liburnians colonised the Picene and Corfu , they where not sure if the colonignised Foggia with the Daunians or these Daunians being a branch of Iapygians/Iapjodes or where in the Liburnian league and lived in the hinterland of Liburnia


what historians say



liburnian samples