The genetic origin of Daunians

**torzio** · 31-07-21, 08:58

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...498v1.full.pdf

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...07.30.454498v1

for Salento

**kingjohn** · 31-07-21, 09:54

thanks for sharing

y dna ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

ORD004- r1b-m269
ORD011-r1b-p312
SGR002-r1b-m269
ORD014-j2b2 -L283
SAL001-J2B -M241
SAL010-J2B M241
ORD019-I2D-Z2093
SAL011-I2D-M223
SGR001-I1-M253

regions of samples :

https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png

**blevins13** · 31-07-21, 10:59

Originally Posted by kingjohn

thanks for sharing

y dna ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

ORD004- r1b-m269
ORD011-r1b-p312
SGR002-r1b-m269
ORD014-j2b2 -L283
SAL001-J2B -M241
SAL010-J2B M241
ORD019-I2D-Z2093
SAL011-I2D-M223
SGR001-I1-M253

regions of samples :

https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png

Great two Illyrian samples.

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

**Hawk** · 31-07-21, 12:30

Yeah, very interesting, so it looks the original Daunians/Messapians/Iapyges were J2b2-L283 and R1b-M269.

As for E-V13 not being found, it's more and more clear it's related with the cremation burials introduction in Balkans, so partial Illyrians who practiced cremation on a pyre, Thracians, and probably many of those E-V13 Z5018 in Apuglia is of Greek origin with some being recent Albanian migration.

**kingjohn** · 31-07-21, 12:44

Originally Posted by Hawk

Yeah, very interesting, so it looks the original Daunians/Messapians/Iapyges were J2b2-L283 and R1b-M269.

As for E-V13 not being found, it's more and more clear it's related with the cremation burials introduction in Balkans, so partial Illyrians who practiced cremation on a pyre, Thracians, and probably many of those E-V13 Z5018 in Apuglia is of Greek origin with some being recent Albanian migration.

very likely
at the moment
the source in modern south italy must be anicent greek colonies

p.s
let us wait for the anicent campanian dna paper i predict there would be some
e-v13 but i might be wrong

**Archetype0ne** · 31-07-21, 12:46

:)

Very much in line with the rumored North Albania samples.

...

I hope Parapoitikos is not having a seizure trying to fit these new facts into his idiotheories.

**Hawk** · 31-07-21, 12:52

Originally Posted by kingjohn

very likely
at the moment
the source must be anicent greek colonies

p.s
let us wait for the anicent campanian dna paper i predict there would be some
e-v13 but i might be wrong

The Matt-Painted Pottery Culture was older than Late Bronze Age in South-East Italy and those were the assimilated people by Daunians/Messapians/Iapyges, so Illyrians didn't bring Matt-Painted Pottery Culture and didn't come via South Albania, probably the J2b2-L283 came via Dalmatia considering that Iapodes living in North Adriatic have very similar name to Iapyges. But then again this is the confusing part, Iapodes used cremation urns something which Iapyges never did.

Burial customs comparisons are the most robust way of comparing ancient cultures since they will be last thing a culture will change. Remember, the only reason we saw E-V13 in Iron Age Bulgaria was that the ritual pits were secondary burials, and those were either human sacrifices or criminals otherwise the Psenicevo-Babadag Culture used cremation as primary burial?!(not 100% sure about this though, need to check).

**Johane Derite** · 31-07-21, 15:28

Earliest Messapic inscriptions in italy begin in 7th century BC.

**Johane Derite** · 31-07-21, 15:39

Some amazing results. Fantastic to have L283 and R1b-M269 confirmed.

I now hope for a paper like this of Apulia, where the epicentre of Messapic language inscriptions is

**Hawk** · 31-07-21, 15:46

Glasinac-Mat Culture: J2b2-L283

Trebeniste Culture (not Matt-Painted Pottery Culture): E-V13

i guess. Let's see.

**Palermo Trapani** · 31-07-21, 16:00

Originally Posted by torzio

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...498v1.full.pdf

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...07.30.454498v1

for Salento

Nice Find Torzio. Very interesting paper.

Salento might find some relatives among the sample.

**Salento** · 31-07-21, 17:09

Originally Posted by torzio

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...498v1.full.pdf

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...07.30.454498v1

for Salento

thanks Torzio :)

**Salento** · 31-07-21, 17:38

Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani

Nice Find Torzio. Very interesting paper.

Salento might find some relatives among the sample.

It’s very possible :)

… the Dauni are geographically closer to Jovialis, … I’m from the Messapii area of Puglia, though the Iapygians (Dauni, Peucetii and Messapi) all spoke Messapico (supposedly).

**Salento** · 31-07-21, 17:52

Apulia has been inhabited for over 20,000 years (even earlier if we add Neanderthal).

… keep that in mind when theorizing admixtures and haplogroups provenance.

**Jovialis** · 31-07-21, 17:55

Fascinating! Thanks for sharing this, I look forward to the samples.

**Palermo Trapani** · 31-07-21, 18:14

Originally Posted by Salento

It’s very possible :)

… the Dauni are geographically closer to Jovialis, … I’m from the Messapii area of Puglia, though the Iapygians (Dauni, Peucetii and Messapi) all spoke Messapico (supposedly).

Ok, thanks for that information. Looking at the geographic sites, they are all from Ordono, Salapia and San Giovanni Rotondo closer to Campania border rather than Salento part of Apulia on Southern Heel. Makes sense, thanks for making note of that. So Jovialis could be the one more likely to find some ancient relatives.

One of the samples from Salapia (SAL011) is Y-DNA I-M223 (I2d-M223) so that is kind of interesting to me on a personal note, although beyond being I-M223, Don't know much more about my subclade (eventually will have to do Big-Y).

Thanks again, PT

**Jovialis** · 31-07-21, 18:15

Originally Posted by kingjohn

thanks for sharing

y dna ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

ORD004- r1b-m269
ORD011-r1b-p312
SGR002-r1b-m269
ORD014-j2b2 -L283
SAL001-J2B -M241
SAL010-J2B M241
ORD019-I2D-Z2093
SAL011-I2D-M223
SGR001-I1-M253

regions of samples :

https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png

I think it is possible this is where my paternal-lineage comes from.

**torzio** · 31-07-21, 18:48

Originally Posted by Salento

It’s very possible :)

… the Dauni are geographically closer to Jovialis, … I’m from the Messapii area of Puglia, though the Iapygians (Dauni, Peucetii and Messapi) all spoke Messapico (supposedly).

As I have been saying for many year ...........Daunians and the other messapic linguistic tribes come from the north-adriatic

Within the described Pan Mediterranean landscape, the IAA/Daunians show a compelling 264
heterogeneity, and the highest genetic affinity to Republican Romans and Iron Age Croatians,

ironage croatians are the Liburnians
Italian historians always stated Liburnians colonised the Picene and Corfu , they where not sure if the colonignised Foggia with the Daunians or these Daunians being a branch of Iapygians/Iapjodes or where in the Liburnian league and lived in the hinterland of Liburnia

what historians say

liburnian samples

**torzio** · 31-07-21, 18:56

what the ancients say about the Liburnians

LIBURNI

Eth. LIBURNI (Λιβυρνοί, Scyl. p. 7; Strab. vi. p.269, vii. p. 317; Appian, App. Ill. 12; Steph. B. sub voce Schol. ad Nicand. 607: Pomp. Mela, 2.3.12; Plin. iii,. 25; Flor. 2.5), a people who occupied the N. part of Illyricum, or the district called LIBURNIA (Λιβυρνὶς χώρα, Scyl. p. 7; Λιβουρνία, Ptol. 2.16.8, 8.7.7; Plin.3.6, 23, 26; Peut. Tab.; Orelli, Inscr. n. 664). The Liburnians were an ancient people, who, together with the Siculians, had occupied the opposite coast of Picenum; they had a city there, Truentum, which had continued in existence amid all the changes of the population (Plin. Nat. 3.18). Niebuhr (Hist. of Rome, vol. i. p. 50, trans.) has conjectured that they were a Pelasgian race. However this may be, it is certain that at the time when the historical accounts of these coasts begin they were very extensively diffused. Corcyra, before the Greeks took possession of it, was peopled by them. (Strab. vi. p.269.) So was Issa and the neighbouring islands. (Schol. ad Apollon. 4.564.) They were also considerably extended to the N., for Noricum, it is evident, had been previously in. habited by Liburnian tribes; for the Vindelicians were Liburnians (Serv. ad Viry. Aen. 1.243), and Strabo (iv. p.206) makes a distinction between them and the Breuni and Genauni, whom he calls Illyrians. The words of Virgil (l.c.), too, seem distinctly to term the Veneti Liburnians, for the “innermost realm of the Liburnians” must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.
Driven out from the countries between Pannonia and the Veneti by the Gallic invasion, they were compressed within the district from the Titius to the Arsia, which assumed the title of Liburnia. A wild and piratical race (Liv. 10.2), they used privateers ( “lembi,” “naves Liburnicae” ) with one very large lateen sail, which, adopted by the Romans in their struggle with Carthage (Eutrop. 2.22) and in the Second Macedonian War (Liv. 42.48), supplanted gradually the high-bulwarked galleys which had formerly been in use. (Caes. B.C. 3.5; Hor. Epod. 1.1.) Liburnia was afterwards incorporated with the province of Dalmatia, and IADERA its capital, was made a Roman colony.

**torzio** · 31-07-21, 19:00

I have never seen notes on Dalmatians prior to 500BC ....but have seen notes on Liburnians from 1100Bc ..................Are the dalmatians a branch of Liburnians or did they come from a branch of Pannonians

and Liburnian diet is land based, which further emphasies the large lands they owned

**Jovialis** · 31-07-21, 19:03

Interesting, so basically modern Apulia is eastern-shifted from the IA Iapygian; much like the way modern Balkanites, and Greeks are eastern shifted from their IA and BA ancestors. As for Imperial Romans, it seems modern Puglia overlaps with the C6 Mediterranean cluster. Maybe this was the population at large (C6), outside of Iapygian dominion? The people that were there before them? As well as southern Italian IA Greeks? Perhaps these earlier groups harbored the higher amount of CHG.

**torzio** · 31-07-21, 19:27

Originally Posted by Jovialis

Interesting, so basically modern Apulia is eastern-shifted from the IA Iapygian; much like the way modern Balkanites, and Greeks are eastern shifted from their IA and BA ancestors. As for Imperial Romans, it seems modern Puglia overlaps with the C6 Mediterranean cluster. Maybe this was the population at large (C6), outside of Iapygian dominion? The people that were there before them? As well as southern Italian IA Greeks? Perhaps these earlier groups harbored the higher amount of CHG.

Seems like ancient Daunians should be C7 and as they moved further south into the heel absorbed Italic tribes who where C6 ..............only explanation unless you want to say the paper is wrong

**Jovialis** · 31-07-21, 19:51

Originally Posted by torzio

Seems like ancient Daunians should be C7 and as they moved further south into the heel absorbed Italic tribes who where C6 ..............only explanation unless you want to say the paper is wrong

They are west of Central and Southern Italy according to the PCA, and southwest of North Italy. Between C6 and C7. Also, I was talking about modern Puglia, not IA.

**Jovialis** · 31-07-21, 21:33

Originally Posted by Jovialis

They are west of Central and Southern Italy according to the PCA, and southwest of North Italy. Between C6 and C7. Also, I was talking about modern Puglia, not IA.

**torzio** · 31-07-21, 21:59

Originally Posted by Jovialis

They are west of Central and Southern Italy according to the PCA, and southwest of North Italy. Between C6 and C7. Also, I was talking about modern Puglia, not IA.

The paper says affinity with iron-age Croatians ..................it does not say affinity with iron-age Bosnians or Montenegrians

I think we should check sample R1 and see if she , who was born in Liburnia and died in Picene Marche is linked with any of these samples

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