The genetic origin of Daunians

Riverman said:
We have the hoards and flame shaped spearheads. Early Hallstatt was clearly influenced by Channelled Ware and the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon.
Many elements common in Hallstatt appear in Gava related contexts first and the connection of Basarabi to the hub in Eastern Hallstatt, the Fr�g and Kalenderberg groups in particular is glass clear.
Note that the influences spread from there directly to Southern Germany, Switzerland and Northern Italy.
Read up on "Basaraboid" elements in Hallstatt.
Later they, especially in the West, emancipated more, with a complete shift in La Tene.
But early on, there was a massive influence from the Basarabi group on Hallstatt.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...um_und_Mitteleuropa_wahrend_der_Hallstattzeit
In the very late Urnfield period, the hoard producing Channelled Ware people moved the Danube up.
That's when we find the flame shaped spearheads spreading West and reaching Northern Italy through the Alps.
The contacts did not die off with the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and produced the Basarabi-Hallstatt sphere.
In some areas it was just an influence, in others like Fr�g it was dominant.
They even kept marriage ties over centuries.
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I don't think that's enough btw, we need concrete archeological comparison. :)
 
Hawk said:
I don't think that's enough btw, we need concrete archeological comparison. :)
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The archaeological comparison is there and absolutely clear.
However, the archaeological connection to Hallstatt doesn't prove the spread of E-V13 from Eastern Urnfield/Basarabi, it just makes it a distinct possibility. Such complete sets and burials are not even imaginable without SOME people migrating from the Pannonian sphere westward. I'd say whole groups were on the march, but it could be individuals only too.
The proof can only come from more ancient and modern samples...
 
As to E-V13 in Provence and environs:
"[FONT=&quot]Roy J. King, Julie Di Cristofaro, Anastasia Kouvatsi, Costas Triantaphyllidis, Walter Scheidel, Natalie M. Myres, Alice A. Lin, Alexandre Eissautier, Michael Mitchell, Didier Binder, Ornella Semino, Andrea Novelletto, Peter A. Underhill, and Jacques Chiaroni. [/FONT]"The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean."[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]BMC Evolutionary Biology 11:69 (March 14, 2011).
This paper's goal was to study the genetic traces of Greek colonization in Provence in southern mainland France. 51 samples from Provençal Frenchmen were compared with 58 samples from people from Smyrna and 31 from Asia Minor Phokaia. The Y-DNA haplogroup E-V13 is known to be "characteristic of the Greek and Balkan mainland". It was found among 19% of the Phokaian samples and 12% of the Smyrnian samples as well as among 4% of the Provençal Frenchmen, 4.6% of East Corsicans, and 1.6% of West Corsicans. Altogether, according to the Results section, taking into account all haplogroups, "An admixture analysis estimated that 17% of the Y-chromosomes of Provence may be attributed to Greek colonization."


Can anyone get access to this one?
[FONT=&quot]Eva Ramos-Luis, Alejandro Blanco Verea, Maria Brión, V. Van Huffel, Paula Sánchez-Diz, and Angel Carracedo. [/FONT]"Y-chromosomal DNA analysis in French male lineages."[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]Forensic Science International: Genetics 9 (March 2014): pages 162-168. First published online on December 29, 2013.
 
I was surprised by E-V13 being so low in this sample from Provence initially, but that's how I made it in the map too. And actually, of the low percentage of E-V13 in Provence, only a fraction can be attributed to Greek. More came from the Alpine-Ligurian area probably. But these are patterns for which we need more NGS samples, which allow us to construct exact phylogenies. Just pointing out its E-V13, which many studies didn't even do anyway, they are even worse, is not enough.
 
Angela said:
As to E-V13 in Provence and environs:
"Roy J. King, Julie Di Cristofaro, Anastasia Kouvatsi, Costas Triantaphyllidis, Walter Scheidel, Natalie M. Myres, Alice A. Lin, Alexandre Eissautier, Michael Mitchell, Didier Binder, Ornella Semino, Andrea Novelletto, Peter A. Underhill, and Jacques Chiaroni. "The coming of the Greeks to Provence and Corsica: Y-chromosome models of archaic Greek colonization of the western Mediterranean."BMC Evolutionary Biology 11:69 (March 14, 2011).
This paper's goal was to study the genetic traces of Greek colonization in Provence in southern mainland France. 51 samples from Provençal Frenchmen were compared with 58 samples from people from Smyrna and 31 from Asia Minor Phokaia. The Y-DNA haplogroup E-V13 is known to be "characteristic of the Greek and Balkan mainland". It was found among 19% of the Phokaian samples and 12% of the Smyrnian samples as well as among 4% of the Provençal Frenchmen, 4.6% of East Corsicans, and 1.6% of West Corsicans. Altogether, according to the Results section, taking into account all haplogroups, "An admixture analysis estimated that 17% of the Y-chromosomes of Provence may be attributed to Greek colonization."


Can anyone get access to this one?
Eva Ramos-Luis, Alejandro Blanco Verea, Maria Brión, V. Van Huffel, Paula Sánchez-Diz, and Angel Carracedo. "Y-chromosomal DNA analysis in French male lineages."Forensic Science International: Genetics 9 (March 2014): pages 162-168. First published online on December 29, 2013.
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this is the closest i can get

https://www.semanticscholar.org/pap...erea/ce117279a8ad6b2f07f05a329113e3a22f92b5a7


3-Table3-1.png




3-Figure1-1.png




4-Figure2-1.png
 
Alsace is, like expected, close to neighbouring German regions, the most striking is Bretagne, with zero E-V13 and low R-U152. In a lot of regions, but not always, West of Hungary in particular, there is some sort of correlation between R-U152 and E-V13 imho. They don't use E-V13, but its quite clear that even with these higher numbers, Provence is not much above the German average and definitely not as high as e.g. Liguria/Genua, Venetian province and St. Gallen. I also do expect more non-E-V13 E1b1b1a there. Note that in Alsace almost all the E1b1b1a is most likely E-V13, whereas the same can't be said for other French provinces, where there is way more E1b1b variation and diversity, from North Africa and older French Neolithic groups.
 
Salento said:
… just a personal observation,
… KingJohn post #555 has the highest y T in Volterra,
… Modern T-SK1480 (Torzio and I final clade), is also located near Volterra,
… my SPA (Spatial Ancestral Analysis) result is Chieti, located near Bronze-Age T-Z19945
… Chieti is also one of my MyHeritage Genetic Groups.
… they’re too many to be just coincidences, … who knows :)
Geographical-locations-of-the-10-analysed-Italian-population-samples.png

PyLrCs1.jpg

iEzqfaS.jpg

ARLidSw.jpg

http://genetics.cs.ucla.edu/spa/
http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html
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my new one from myheritage ................does have a mark near chieti ............but closer to termoli
it has also moved my .....from GrandEst France spot to Saarland Germany area.
I also received a T1a2 match ( 3 days ago ) from Escher family in Wil ZH that match the Blarer T1a2 ( circa 1100 in swiss ) with the Angst line with me.......... also ................. to conclude , as I said many times, one possibility, is that we cross the adriatic near chieti/Termoli area and we split, you south and me north
 
Riverman said:
Alsace is, like expected, close to neighbouring German regions, the most striking is Bretagne, with zero E-V13 and low R-U152. In a lot of regions, but not always, West of Hungary in particular, there is some sort of correlation between R-U152 and E-V13 imho. They don't use E-V13, but its quite clear that even with these higher numbers, Provence is not much above the German average and definitely not as high as e.g. Liguria/Genua, Venetian province and St. Gallen. I also do expect more non-E-V13 E1b1b1a there. Note that in Alsace almost all the E1b1b1a is most likely E-V13, whereas the same can't be said for other French provinces, where there is way more E1b1b variation and diversity, from North Africa and older French Neolithic groups.
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the e1b1b* cases here are probably e-L19 -PF2431
the E* cases could be combination of e1b1a-m2 + e1a ( which have a med subclade under it in yfull):unsure:
i agree with you that in areas of french german border most if not all of the e1b1b1a would be e-v13
and in other french regions we can see e-v22 , e-v12 or other branches under e-m78
 
Pity we only have the Boattini study that breaks it down to sub-clade level, because I always found it odd that Genova has 16%, but La Spezia in the same province has 0%. That's the problem when you have such small samples sizes.
 
Angela said:
Pity we only have the Boattini study that breaks it down to sub-clade level, because I always found it odd that Genova has 16%, but La Spezia in the same province has 0%. That's the problem when you have such small samples sizes.
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Yes, only small peaks and still nowhere the full picture.
But sometimes these differences are real and persist in larger samples which point to regional or even local level founder effects, which background is even more mysterious.
 
I want to add that Imperial Romans and Late Antiquity Southern Italian-like Romans had no E-V13 (the only E-V13 was a Gothic one). So if ancient Greek colonists carried this Y-Dna does this imply that Imperial Romans clustering close to Southern Italians is coincidence? Just like Imperial Tuscans who plot close to Southern Italians and Imperial Marche too.

Also some samples in Danubian paper who belonged to NE cluster carried E-V13 and other Paleo-Balkan lines, so I ask: How many more-Northern (not the French/Iberian outlier(s)) Imperial Romans carried J1 and how many more Southern Imperial Romans (around Cyprus) carried an Italic Y-Dna (like R1b)?
 
We still don't have any solid sampling from Magna Graecia.
In the Balkan IA cluster its clear its totally E-V13 dominated in the Serbian Danubian region. The NE outliers are local elites which married Imperial Roman women over generations.
 
I've gone back over all the yDna papers on Italy in my files: De Gaetano, Cruciani, Battaglia and Semino. They have many more samples than does the Boattini paper, but none of them break it down by province for the north; the closest they come is northern Italy, or north Central Italy, with the only exception being far northeastern Italy, which had very little of it.

What is interesting in the Semino paper, which is valuable because it combines the data from four papers, is that Calabria has a very high level of E-V13: 16%. However, the Albanian community in Calabria comes in at 5.9%, a drastic difference. Sicily comes in at 12.6%

Also interesting is their distribution map, which shows a decided south/north cline.

xBWMOpr.png
[/IMG]

After reviewing all of this, I'm skeptical of this 16% figure for Genova, given the small number of samples and that La Spezia comes in at 0. As always, the answer will come with more samples.
 
The map is schematic and just wrong in slmost every respect.
I used newer data for my distribution map. Also, E-V13 is more specific.
Its possible directly South and East of Genua is a higher concentration.
 
Angela said:
I've gone back over all the yDna papers on Italy in my files: De Gaetano, Cruciani, Battaglia and Semino. They have many more samples than does the Boattini paper, but none of them break it down by province for the north; the closest they come is northern Italy, or north Central Italy, with the only exception being far northeastern Italy, which had very little of it.

What is interesting in the Semino paper, which is valuable because it combines the data from four papers, is that Calabria has a very high level of E-V13: 16%. However, the Albanian community in Calabria comes in at 5.9%, a drastic difference. Sicily comes in at 12.6%

Also interesting is their distribution map, which shows a decided south/north cline.

xBWMOpr.png
[/IMG]

After reviewing all of this, I'm skeptical of this 16% figure for Genova, given the small number of samples and that La Spezia comes in at 0. As always, the answer will come with more samples.
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Arbereshe Albanians in Calabria have 17% E-V13, which is higher than average.
Five haplogroups were found to particularly affect the genetic variability within and between the two Arbereshe groups (Supplementary Figure S1,Supplementary Table S4). The two most frequent HGs in ARB_CAL (E-V13, 16.9%; I-M223, 14.2%) do not match those found in ARB_SIC (I-P215, 20.5%; E-M123, 18.2%). By contrast, the third most frequent HG (R-SRY10831.2) is found at comparatively high frequencies in both Calabrian (9.43%) and Sicilian (11.35%) Arbereshe (Supplementary Table S4).

E-V13 in Sicily and Calabria is around 8%.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sicily?iframe=yresults
 
Riverman said:
We still don't have any solid sampling from Magna Graecia.
In the Balkan IA cluster its clear its totally E-V13 dominated in the Serbian Danubian region. The NE outliers are local elites which married Imperial Roman women over generations.
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The recent and upcoming Italian papers are very promising, with 70-100 ancient samples.
If there is any paper planned on Magna Graecia we might similar amount of samples I am extremely curios to know.
There is also an archeological paper about Dorians, no DNA, but I am curios to know what are they going to say.
The fall of Mycenaean civilization was an extremely interesting topic to know more about.
 
Riverman said:
The map is schematic and just wrong in slmost every respect.
I used newer data for my distribution map. Also, E-V13 is more specific.
Its possible directly South and East of Genua is a higher concentration.
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South and East of Genova is La Spezia at 0% and then Toscana, which is again much lower. It makes little sense to me that Genova alone would have 16% but of course you're entitled to believe whatever you wish.

As for the map being incorrect, this is data from four papers, and each area has from 60-80 samples.

Could you please provide your academic sources (a cite to the paper for each province in Italy and the number of samples for each province)? All I saw you list on the other thread is Boattini et al, which has a very small number of samples.

As for the map being of E-M78 instead of E-V13, we can see from the Boattini paper that most of the E-M78 in Italy is E-V13, so I think we still get a general idea, although of course more specificity would be better.
 
torzio said:
that site has never opened for me
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… from my end it works fine,
… maybe your security settings are too high,
… on your browser privacy/security settings you can change the “site permissions” (enable/disable) for all or specific sites.
 
Angela said:
South and East of Genova is La Spezia at 0% and then Toscana, which is again much lower. It makes little sense to me that Genova alone would have 16% but of course you're entitled to believe whatever you wish.

As for the map being incorrect, this is data from four papers, and each area has from 60-80 samples.

Could you please provide your academic sources (a cite to the paper for each province in Italy and the number of samples for each province)? All I saw you list on the other thread is Boattini et al, which has a very small number of samples.

As for the map being of E-M78 instead of E-V13, we can see from the Boattini paper that most of the E-M78 in Italy is E-V13, so I think we still get a general idea, although of course more specificity would be better.
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I wasn't referring to Italy alone, but the distribution as a whole. Like Greece has no higher percentages than Northern Albania-Kosovo, parts of Northern Italy and Switzerland have higher percentages, still there are differences on the same latitude between Baden-W?rttemberg/Swabia and core Bavaria etc. The point is, the map suggest a gradient, which could be associated with a simplified Neolithic model, which isn't there. The distribution is very different from that, because its no Neolithic spread, but a Bronze and Iron Age one, from a more Northern source than Greece.
Even in Italy, Apulia and the Venetian province, not just Liguria, stick out, with Central Italy being lower. Maciamo posted the numbers
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...of-E1b1b-subclades-in-Italy-(Boattini-et-al-)

and there were other hints from different studies, like the paper on Italian commons:
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ajpa.24302

Also if looking at areas like Bretagne and Slovenia, the real frequency distribution is much more complex. In Italy there is definitely a Ligurian and Venetian centre, because the tendency persists in the neighbouring provinces as far as I know, I stumbled across some numbers on different occasions, can't list all these and didn't use all them, since it would be more fine grained than the map allows anyway, but it generally confirmed the pattern. The more above average frequency in Apulia mostly comes from later Balkan and Albanian migrants from Late Antiquity on.
What's also noteworthy is that in some core Rhaetic areas, there might be a drop, rather than increase, which might point to a difference in the more Rhaetic-Etruscan area, but this is something which needs to be confirmed once more.
 
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