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  1. #1
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    12 members found this post helpful.

    The genetic origin of Daunians

    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    thanks for sharing

    y dna
    ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

    ORD004- r1b-m269
    ORD011-r1b-p312
    SGR002-r1b-m269
    ORD014-j2b2 -L283
    SAL001-J2B -M241
    SAL010-J2B M241
    ORD019-I2D-Z2093
    SAL011-I2D-M223
    SGR001-I1-M253


    regions of samples :

    https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

    "Know where you came from and where you are going."

    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    thanks for sharing

    y dna
    ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

    ORD004- r1b-m269
    ORD011-r1b-p312
    SGR002-r1b-m269
    ORD014-j2b2 -L283
    SAL001-J2B -M241
    SAL010-J2B M241
    ORD019-I2D-Z2093
    SAL011-I2D-M223
    SGR001-I1-M253


    regions of samples :

    https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png
    Great two Illyrian samples.


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    thanks for sharing

    y dna
    ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

    ORD004- r1b-m269
    ORD011-r1b-p312
    SGR002-r1b-m269
    ORD014-j2b2 -L283
    SAL001-J2B -M241
    SAL010-J2B M241
    ORD019-I2D-Z2093
    SAL011-I2D-M223
    SGR001-I1-M253


    regions of samples :

    https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png
    I think it is possible this is where my paternal-lineage comes from.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    thanks for sharing

    y dna
    ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

    ORD004- r1b-m269
    ORD011-r1b-p312
    SGR002-r1b-m269
    ORD014-j2b2 -L283
    SAL001-J2B -M241
    SAL010-J2B M241
    ORD019-I2D-Z2093
    SAL011-I2D-M223
    SGR001-I1-M253


    regions of samples :

    https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png

    Of these samples, how many are Daunians?




    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Earliest Messapic inscriptions in italy begin in 7th century BC.

    This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.

  6. #6
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Of these samples, how many are Daunians?







    This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.
    1. All of them supposedly. This study solely focused on Daunians.
    2. Totally agree. Daunians might have been there much earlier for all we know.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Of these samples, how many are Daunians?
    This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.
    SGR001 is dated to early midiveal 670-774Ad and he show along with ORD010
    Some move thowrds near east in pca according to paper... ( page 5)


    P.s
    I don't think he is daunian even his y haplogroup is I1 a nordic haplogroup...
    The other ones in the list above supposed to be daunian dated from 1157bc-275bc

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    SGR001 is dated to early midiveal 670-774Ad and he show along with ORD010
    Some move thowrds near east in pca according to paper... ( page 5)

    P.s
    I don't think he is daunian even his y haplogroup is I1 a nordic haplogroup...
    The other ones in the list above supposed to be daunian dated from 1157bc-275bc
    He could be a desendant of moorish admixed people who were relocated to the Foggia region, prior to the ethnic cleansing.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    He could be a desendant of moorish admixed people who were relocated to the Foggia region, prior to the ethnic cleansing.
    Could be
    Did someone uploaded him to gedmatch ?
    What are his k12b values ?
    Did he show high northwest african % ?

    P.s
    Did normans were in this region ( given his y haplogroup)
    Or the dates of him are much before there arrival

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    He could be a desendant of moorish admixed people who were relocated to the Foggia region, prior to the ethnic cleansing.

    where did you get Moorish from ??

    Moors are basically Berbers that became Arabinized after the Arabs invaded NW Africa


    Early Medieval individual (SGR001 (670 - 774) calCE (95.4%)) belonging to haplogroup I1-M253, which is common in Northern Europe and previously also detected in a 6th Century Langobard burial from North Italy.

    SGR001 — San Giovanni Rotondo — Date 1285 ± 23 BP; 670 - 774 calCE — Haplogroups U3a - I1-M253 — Genome coverage 0.044 — # of SNPs 59,213

    San Giovanni Rotondo The San Giovanni Rotondo samples come from the osteo-archaeological collection of the Museum of Anthropology of the University of Padova and are not associated to any further record with the exception of a broad “Iron Age” archaeological label and may be part of the samples brought to the Museum by Prof. Santo Tiné in the 1960s

    Looks more Lombard to me ............moving south after the Lombards went to Italy and took it from the Ostrogoths and then established southern Italy as Lombard , especially areas like Benevento region in Italy

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Of these samples, how many are Daunians?







    This is due to when the alphabet spreads not when the language arrived.

    paper separates them into


  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    thanks for sharing

    y dna
    ( again no e1b1b not even european e-v13 )

    ORD004- r1b-m269
    ORD011-r1b-p312
    SGR002-r1b-m269
    ORD014-j2b2 -L283
    SAL001-J2B -M241
    SAL010-J2B M241
    ORD019-I2D-Z2093
    SAL011-I2D-M223
    SGR001-I1-M253


    regions of samples :

    https://i.imgur.com/qcE4MDR.png

    if we add the ancient croatian paper samples from august........

    we report new whole-genome data for 28 individuals dated to between ~ 4700 BCE–400 CE from two sites in present-day eastern Croatia.
    In the Middle Neolithic we evidence first cousin mating practices and strong genetic continuity
    from the Early Neolithic. In the Middle Bronze Age community that we studied, we find multiple
    closely related males suggesting a patrilocal social organisation. We also find in that community an
    unexpected genetic ancestry profile distinct from individuals found at contemporaneous sites in the
    region, due to the addition of hunter-gatherer-related ancestry. These findings support archaeological
    evidence for contacts with communities further north in the Carpathian Basin. Finally, an individual
    dated to Roman times exhibits an ancestry profile that is broadly present in the region today, adding
    an important data point to the substantial shift in ancestry that occurred in the region between the
    Bronze Age and today.


    8 x G2a ydna
    2 x I2a ydna
    1 x R1b
    1 X J
    1 x C


    so ancient Illyrians have G2a, I2a, J2b and R1b as majority ..................clearly G2a is in majority

  13. #13
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    5 members found this post helpful.
    Yeah, very interesting, so it looks the original Daunians/Messapians/Iapyges were J2b2-L283 and R1b-M269.

    As for E-V13 not being found, it's more and more clear it's related with the cremation burials introduction in Balkans, so partial Illyrians who practiced cremation on a pyre, Thracians, and probably many of those E-V13 Z5018 in Apuglia is of Greek origin with some being recent Albanian migration.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Yeah, very interesting, so it looks the original Daunians/Messapians/Iapyges were J2b2-L283 and R1b-M269.

    As for E-V13 not being found, it's more and more clear it's related with the cremation burials introduction in Balkans, so partial Illyrians who practiced cremation on a pyre, Thracians, and probably many of those E-V13 Z5018 in Apuglia is of Greek origin with some being recent Albanian migration.

    very likely
    at the moment
    the source in modern south italy must be anicent greek colonies

    p.s
    let us wait for the anicent campanian dna paper i predict there would be some
    e-v13 but i might be wrong

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    very likely
    at the moment
    the source must be anicent greek colonies

    p.s
    let us wait for the anicent campanian dna paper i predict there would be some
    e-v13 but i might be wrong
    The Matt-Painted Pottery Culture was older than Late Bronze Age in South-East Italy and those were the assimilated people by Daunians/Messapians/Iapyges, so Illyrians didn't bring Matt-Painted Pottery Culture and didn't come via South Albania, probably the J2b2-L283 came via Dalmatia considering that Iapodes living in North Adriatic have very similar name to Iapyges. But then again this is the confusing part, Iapodes used cremation urns something which Iapyges never did.

    Burial customs comparisons are the most robust way of comparing ancient cultures since they will be last thing a culture will change. Remember, the only reason we saw E-V13 in Iron Age Bulgaria was that the ritual pits were secondary burials, and those were either human sacrifices or criminals otherwise the Psenicevo-Babadag Culture used cremation as primary burial?!(not 100% sure about this though, need to check).

  16. #16
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    3 members found this post helpful.
    :)

    Very much in line with the rumored North Albania samples.

    ...

    I hope Parapoitikos is not having a seizure trying to fit these new facts into his idiotheories.

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    Earliest Messapic inscriptions in italy begin in 7th century BC.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Earliest Messapic inscriptions in italy begin in 7th century BC.
    Sorry, correction: the earliest Messapic inscriptions date from the mid-6th century BC,
    So ~550 BC.
    Linguist Leonard Palmer attributed the Messapic language (which he called plainly Illyrian) to a third migration wave into Italy of people who brought horse-riding as opposed to horse-driving, and were horse breeders.
    The first wave he says were Italic cremators who came into italy by land via the north, the second wave he calls osco-umbrian inhumers who also crossed the adriatic.
    This third "easternizing" wave he attributes messapic to he says culminated around ~750 BC.

  19. #19
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    Some amazing results. Fantastic to have L283 and R1b-M269 confirmed.

    I now hope for a paper like this of Apulia, where the epicentre of Messapic language inscriptions is


  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Some amazing results. Fantastic to have L283 and R1b-M269 confirmed.

    I now hope for a paper like this of Apulia, where the epicentre of Messapic language inscriptions is

    Chances are you will get similar results.


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  21. #21
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    Glasinac-Mat Culture: J2b2-L283

    Trebeniste Culture (not Matt-Painted Pottery Culture): E-V13

    i guess. Let's see.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Nice Find Torzio. Very interesting paper.

    Salento might find some relatives among the sample.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palermo Trapani View Post
    Nice Find Torzio. Very interesting paper.

    Salento might find some relatives among the sample.
    It’s very possible :)

    … the Dauni are geographically closer to Jovialis, … I’m from the Messapii area of Puglia, though the Iapygians (Dauni, Peucetii and Messapi) all spoke Messapico (supposedly).
    🕷️

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    It’s very possible :)

    … the Dauni are geographically closer to Jovialis, … I’m from the Messapii area of Puglia, though the Iapygians (Dauni, Peucetii and Messapi) all spoke Messapico (supposedly).
    Ok, thanks for that information. Looking at the geographic sites, they are all from Ordono, Salapia and San Giovanni Rotondo closer to Campania border rather than Salento part of Apulia on Southern Heel. Makes sense, thanks for making note of that. So Jovialis could be the one more likely to find some ancient relatives.

    One of the samples from Salapia (SAL011) is Y-DNA I-M223 (I2d-M223) so that is kind of interesting to me on a personal note, although beyond being I-M223, Don't know much more about my subclade (eventually will have to do Big-Y).

    Thanks again, PT

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    It’s very possible :)

    … the Dauni are geographically closer to Jovialis, … I’m from the Messapii area of Puglia, though the Iapygians (Dauni, Peucetii and Messapi) all spoke Messapico (supposedly).

    As I have been saying for many year ...........Daunians and the other messapic linguistic tribes come from the north-adriatic

    Within the described Pan Mediterranean landscape, the IAA/Daunians show a compelling 264
    heterogeneity, and the highest genetic affinity to Republican Romans and Iron Age Croatians,


    ironage croatians are the Liburnians
    Italian historians always stated Liburnians colonised the Picene and Corfu , they where not sure if the colonignised Foggia with the Daunians or these Daunians being a branch of Iapygians/Iapjodes or where in the Liburnian league and lived in the hinterland of Liburnia


    what historians say



    liburnian samples

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