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Thread: To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

  1. #301
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13 => Y173822
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    Riverman can you post the G25 coordinates of E-V13 in Western Hungary and the J2b2 samples, and possibly all samples.

    I want to build a custom calculator to check the Neolithic and Steppe sources in all of them.

  2. #302
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    Country: Austria



    This was the work of Bruzmi by the way which provided this list:
    E-V13:CZE_IA_La_Tene:I16272,0.125205,0.133034,0.0637 33,0.05814,0.041238,0.01255,0,0.001154,0.005931,-0.004556,-0.010068,0.003147,0.000149,0.007019,0.012893,0.003 05,-0.002608,-0.001647,0.001885,0.010005,-0.001996,0.005317,-0.001109,-0.001205,-0.004431
    E-V13:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I14465,0.135449,0.149283,0.035 826,-0.007429,0.04924,-0.011156,-0.003995,0.008077,0.010431,0.019499,-0.00682,0.009142,-0.007582,0.006881,-0.010993,-0.008353,0.01356,0.003674,0.006285,0.01013,-0.008735,0.010263,0.003328,-0.022292,-0.002634
    E-V13:HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18527,0.125205,0.136081,0.0426 15,0.027778,0.040315,0.006414,0.000235,0.007384,0. 017589,0.012939,-0.015752,0.002847,-0.006541,0.001927,-0.008143,-0.003447,0.002608,-0.002534,0.003897,-0.00075,-0.000125,0.002473,-0.001725,-0.016749,-0.003952
    E-V13:HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832,0.125205,0.148267, 0.018102,-0.028101,0.029236,-0.016176,0.00141,-0.003231,0.008999,0.03262,0.005846,0.005095,-0.017691,-0.007844,-0.027551,0.003978,0.027772,0.005448,0.008547,-0.004877,-0.015473,0.004204,0.003328,0.006025,-0.00012
    E-V13:Migration_LIB:LIB11,0.1161,0.142174,0.05242,0. 041667,0.046162,0.010877,0.011045,0.001154,0,-0.020046,0.002111,0.001948,0.00773,0.016652,-0.0057,-0.003978,-0.004303,-0.012162,-0.003771,-0.002751,0.001622,-0.00779,0.013434,-0.002048,-0.001557
    E-V13:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38,0.101303,0.144205,-0.018856,-0.055556,0.007386,-0.016455,-0.00846,-0.008538,-0.004704,0.014397,0.004709,0.009591,-0.00996,-0.005643,-0.014251,0.000928,0.010561,0,-0.002263,0.001251,0.001123,0.006306,-0.002095,0.010001,0.008023
    E-V13:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR107,0.119514,0.149 283,-0.004525,-0.031654,0.022773,-0.02008,-0.00893,-0.004615,0.010226,0.021322,-0.000325,0.005545,-0.00223,0.00578,-0.007872,-0.007425,0.009127,-0.00038,-0.000251,0.007504,-0.003993,-0.001607,0.010106,0.00012,-0.00012
    E-V13:VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK362,0.127482,0.13709 6,0.053174,0.026809,0.034776,0.008646,0.00517,0.01 3384,-0.000614,0.003098,-0.001949,0.000749,-0.003568,0.007569,-0.002307,-0.002387,0.010561,-0.00228,0.002765,0.003752,-0.004243,-0.000989,0.002835,0.001325,-0.010538
    E-V13EU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005,0.120652,0.137096,0.071 276,0.071706,0.049548,0.01004,0.01081,0.014538,-0.009408,-0.018041,-0.00341,-0.001499,0.003419,0.018717,0.00285,-0.004773,0.003129,-0.002154,0.005154,0.004502,-0.009858,-0.004946,0.008381,-0.007591,0.001796
    E-V13:ITA_Rome_Renaissance:RMPR1219,0.122929,0.14217 4,0.046763,0.031654,0.036314,0.009761,0.004465,0.0 08077,0.008795,0.002005,-0.004222,0.001349,-0.015907,0.00812,0.007329,0.002519,0.001956,0.0003 8,0.004902,0.000375,0.007986,0.007914,0.007518,0.0 07953,-0.005029
    E-V13:SCY197_Glinoe_MLD,0.122929,0.140143,0.029415,-0.023902,0.023081,-0.012829,0.015511,-0.005307,0.00225,0.035172,-0.005846,-0.001349,-0.01115,0.000275,-0.010586,-0.0118,0.001434,-0.000127,0.013324,-0.010255,-0.004742,-0.000989,0.003328,-0.002771,-0.008981
    This is the list for J2b, not named after site etc., you can find it by going after the ID:
    J2B:I22940,0.124067,0.152329,0.036581,-0.00646,0.039392,0.002231,-0.001175,0.000692,0.017794,0.034078,0.004709,0.007 343,-0.023042,-0.002752,-0.0038,-0.023203,-0.01356,0.005954,0.006913,-0.000125,-0.006738,0.001731,-0.003451,-0.004217,0.002634
    J2B::I24345,0.122929,0.147252,0.064111,0.0 20672,0.035699,-0.021475,0.015746,0.009,-0.001841,0.016401,-0.007795,0.005995,-0.048463,-0.018029,-0.005836,0.001724,-0.028684,0.012542,0.00905,-0.016008,-0.010232,-0.004451,0.003451,-0.009881,0.003592
    J2B::I5691,0.129758,0.146236,0.043369,0.00 6783,0.044008,-0.000837,-0.002585,-0.000231,0.012885,0.028429,0.002761,0.008243,-0.016501,-0.011423,0.002443,-0.001989,0.004433,0.00228,-0.002137,0.002001,0.000374,0.006925,-0.000616,0.001687,0.000239
    J2B:I26726,0.121791,0.14319,0.029038,-0.013243,0.024928,-0.000837,-0.006345,-0.006461,0.007772,0.027518,0.013803,0.004796,-0.023191,-0.00289,-0.002172,-0.014452,-0.013951,0.003167,0.013575,-0.008129,-0.003743,0.008656,0.005546,0.003976,-0.000479
    J2B::I23911,0.126344,0.140143,0.032432,-0.005814,0.044316,-0.002231,-0.004935,0.002077,0.012271,0.038999,0.000325,0.010 94,-0.012042,-0.007432,0.005157,-0.005701,-0.001565,0.004687,0.011439,-0.004627,0.001872,0.001237,-0.002588,-0.002771,-0.005269
    J2B:I24638,0.129758,0.149283,0.033564,0.0 04845,0.038161,0.005857,0.00705,0.010846,0.011453, 0.028793,0.001949,0.011839,-0.020812,-0.008533,0.002172,-0.000796,0.002608,0.008108,0.006662,0.003001,-0.007612,-0.001978,0.002218,-0.012291,-0.003113
    J2B:I24639,0.124067,0.149283,0.028284,-0.002261,0.031083,0.000558,0.000705,0.005077,0.007 976,0.022962,0.001299,0.006594,-0.01115,-0.004542,-0.00475,-0.005171,-0.014342,-0.005574,0.004022,-0.005127,-0.0141,0.004822,0.003328,-0.006145,0.005987
    J2B:I24882,0.133173,0.146236,0.033941,0.0 01615,0.040931,-0.006972,-0.000235,0.000231,0.002863,0.019135,-0.000325,0.01169,-0.016204,-0.005367,-0.0019,0.00305,0.009257,-0.001014,0.007416,-0.006753,-0.003369,0.008285,0.001972,0.00976,-0.009101
    J2B:I26742,0.122929,0.148267,0.024136,-0.010013,0.034776,-0.003068,0.000705,0.000692,0.010431,0.032256,0.004 222,0.006444,-0.024083,-0.012524,-0.006515,0.00358,0.00691,0.00076,0.012947,-0.010255,-0.002496,0.001607,0.00419,0.011447,-0.006826
    J2B:I4998,0.118376,0.161469,0.016216,-0.022287,0.034776,-0.009203,-0.003525,0.001615,0.01268,0.028247,0.003573,0.0041 96,-0.019772,-0.008533,-0.010315,0.01074,0.025686,-0.004181,0.003897,0.011881,-0.002496,0.006677,0.007272,-0.000723,-0.008502
    J2B:I23995,0.122929,0.146236,0.026021,0.0 01292,0.036007,0.002231,0.00564,0.000692,0.009204, 0.026242,-0.007795,0.009142,-0.014866,-0.00234,0.000271,0.001458,0.005476,0.007601,0.0084 22,0.004002,0.000125,-0.003215,-0.003574,-0.005061,0.000718

    And the HUN_LBA samples, of which most are Kyjatice-Gáva related, I'm pretty confident about this by now, being in the general spreadsheet anyway, as is Füzesabony.

    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    MDE - tooth HUNG395B I20750 Polgár Kenderföld, Hungary 4,300-3,600 Dani, 2002; Dani and V.Szabó 2003; Dani et al 2003; Dani and V,Szabó 2004 U4b2 M
    WTR - tooth HUNG395B I20772 U4b2 M
    Did anyone check the yDNA of this sample? Its from the area and MBA-LBA one of the very few males, from the very important Füzesabony-Otomani group. The sample is from this paper:
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...08.19.256412v1

  3. #303
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    This is how they plot on a general Northern European PCA, which I very much like because of its clear geographical separation of components:



    https://ibb.co/VVLTJzj

    I actually do think that this gap can be filled and in the middle will be probably the original source group. Now let's add the J2b Illyrians, HUN_LBA and the Thraco-Cimmerians, and look where they plot:



    https://ibb.co/PMX5jSj

    I'd say that's bullseye! Note that the Illyrians/Middle Danubians (J-L283 and BB derived R1b) form their own cluster, whereas right in the centre of E-V13, right in the gap left by the current sampling, with no published male samples from Channelled Ware people other than the one Kyjatice J2a, which plots right in the centre too, there are the Channelled Ware samples!
    Just look at the difference, this is a standard PCA for Northern-Central Europeans, which is very good in distinguishing regional origins in Europe, and look how neatly it separates the groups and easily connects, just like in my PCA, the HUN_LBA, Thraco-Cimmerians (Dacians-Basarabi largely, not fully) with the E-V13 centre.
    The only HUN_LBA in the Illyrian cluster is once more the R1b sample from Vas county, a Middle Danubian Urnfielder, just like it should be.

    Ssomewhere in the gap left by the current sampling is both the original source population and the bulk of E-V13. As you can see, that's somewhere between Northern Pannonians and EBA Bulgarians. Best fits have so far Channelled Ware related samples, like those from HUN_LBA and Mezocsat.

  4. #304
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13 => Y173822
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Ok, i created a Late_Neolithic/Chalcolithic to Early Bronze Age Calculator.


    I separated, Adriatic/Dalmatian Neolithic, Aegean Neolithic, East European Neolithic and Panonnian_Carpathian Neolithic, as well as Bell Beakers and Yamnaya to see where the influence comes.



    Target: E-V13:SCY197_Glinoe_MLD
    Distance: 2.8163% / 0.02816303
    31.8 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    29.8 Bell_Beaker
    18.6 West_Asian
    14.0 East_European_Neolithic
    5.8 Yamnaya




    Target: E-V13:ITA_Rome_Renaissance:RMPR1219
    Distance: 2.8723% / 0.02872344
    51.0 Bell_Beaker
    30.4 Yamnaya
    14.4 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    2.2 Baltic
    2.0 East_European_Neolithic




    Target: E-V13EU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005
    Distance: 5.3201% / 0.05320119
    31.6 Yamnaya
    27.0 Bell_Beaker
    22.6 Baltic
    18.8 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic




    Target: E-V13:VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK362
    Distance: 2.9807% / 0.02980732
    38.0 Bell_Beaker
    24.8 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    21.6 Yamnaya
    8.2 Adriatic_Neolithic
    7.4 Baltic




    Target: E-V13:ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR107
    Distance: 2.8793% / 0.02879281
    59.6 Aegean_Neolithic
    20.4 West_Asian
    12.8 Baltic
    5.8 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    1.4 Bell_Beaker




    Target: E-V13:ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38
    Distance: 3.1033% / 0.03103341
    54.0 Aegean_Neolithic
    38.6 West_Asian
    4.4 Yamnaya
    3.0 Baltic




    Target: E-V13:Migration_LIB:LIB11
    Distance: 5.0604% / 0.05060384
    48.8 Yamnaya
    23.2 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    15.6 Baltic
    12.4 Bell_Beaker




    Target: E-V13:HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832
    Distance: 2.5471% / 0.02547086
    70.0 Aegean_Neolithic
    19.6 Yamnaya
    8.6 Baltic
    1.8 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic




    Target: E-V13:HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18527
    Distance: 2.6935% / 0.02693516
    29.4 East_European_Neolithic
    21.0 Yamnaya
    18.2 Bell_Beaker
    15.8 Baltic
    9.2 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    6.4 Aegean_Neolithic




    Target: E-V13:SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I14465
    Distance: 3.4356% / 0.03435601
    40.6 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    22.8 West_Asian
    19.0 Baltic
    17.6 Bell_Beaker




    Target: E-V13:CZE_IA_La_Tene:I16272
    Distance: 2.8888% / 0.02888834
    53.2 Bell_Beaker
    16.2 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    15.4 Yamnaya
    15.2 Baltic

    Target: E-V13:SCY197_Glinoe_MLD
    Distance: 2.8163% / 0.02816303
    31.8 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    29.8 Bell_Beaker
    18.6 West_Asian
    14.0 East_European_Neolithic
    5.8 Yamnaya

  5. #305
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13 => Y173822
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    This is for J2b2:


    Target: J2B:I23995
    Distance: 2.0557% / 0.02055683
    49.8 Bell_Beaker
    14.0 East_European_Neolithic
    13.8 Aegean_Neolithic
    11.6 West_Asian
    4.0 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    4.0 West_Mediterranean
    2.0 Yamnaya
    0.8 Baltic



    Target: J2B:I26742
    Distance: 2.1870% / 0.02187002
    39.4 Bell_Beaker
    36.8 Aegean_Neolithic
    12.6 Yamnaya
    8.6 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    2.6 West_Mediterranean



    Target: J2B:I24882
    Distance: 2.0878% / 0.02087759
    46.8 Bell_Beaker
    18.2 Aegean_Neolithic
    16.0 Adriatic_Neolithic
    13.2 Yamnaya
    5.8 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic



    Target: J2B:I24639
    Distance: 2.0979% / 0.02097939
    47.6 Bell_Beaker
    19.2 West_Asian
    16.8 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    15.8 East_European_Neolithic
    0.6 Yamnaya



    Target: J2B::I23911
    Distance: 2.0015% / 0.02001465
    52.0 Bell_Beaker
    15.6 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    12.2 West_Mediterranean
    12.0 West_Asian
    8.2 Yamnaya



    Target: J2B:I26726
    Distance: 2.5393% / 0.02539303
    34.0 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    31.2 Yamnaya
    21.6 Bell_Beaker
    13.2 West_Asian



    Target: J2B::I24345
    Distance: 5.9167% / 0.05916667
    58.0 Bell_Beaker
    23.2 East_European_Neolithic
    18.8 West_Mediterranean



    Target: J2B:I22940
    Distance: 2.4455% / 0.02445502
    34.8 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    27.4 Yamnaya
    26.4 Bell_Beaker
    11.4 West_Mediterranean

    Target: J2B::I5691
    Distance: 1.3444% / 0.01344396
    56.6 Bell_Beaker
    25.8 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    12.4 Yamnaya
    3.0 East_European_Neolithic
    2.2 Aegean_Neolithic
    Target: J2B:I24638
    Distance: 2.1504% / 0.02150381
    58.8 Bell_Beaker
    13.2 West_Asian
    11.0 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    9.6 West_Mediterranean
    7.4 East_European_Neolithic
    Target: J2B:I4998
    Distance: 3.1864% / 0.03186448
    51.6 Aegean_Neolithic
    21.0 East_European_Neolithic
    15.0 Bell_Beaker
    6.8 Baltic
    5.6 Yamnaya

  6. #306
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    The separation of the Channelled Ware AND Encrusted Pottery people vs. the West Pannonian/West Balkan groups is very strong. Encrusted Pottery is even more distant from the Illyrians, even when they lived already in (Northern) Croatia! By the way, there is indeed some possible overlap on the PCA, but rather with this group: Jagodnjak-Krčevine Middle Bronze Age Southern Transdanubian, in the G25 its HRV_Jag_MBA. That's Encrusted pottery, the second candidate for an E-V13 spread, but so far the haplogroups don't point to it, and while they fused, they being largely dominated by Channelled Ware. But its interesting that these people which too moved from more Northern Pannonia southward, under the pressure of the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture expansion, have practically the same profile as HUN_LBA and the Thraco-Cimmerians/Mezocsat! Somewhat more Eastern, but still not that dissimilar on the PCA, with some being very close to the so far available Channelled Ware samples (Gáva-Kyjatice). About that archaeological group: https://www.academia.edu/38067725/Re...iona_Museum_HU They are the only "Croatian sample" which is really close to Gáva-Kyjatice and the E-V13 midpoint, because they come from Pannonia too: https://ibb.co/QJqM42Y Note how different they are from all the other Croatian samples which plot at the J2b cluster and being more Bell Beaker-South Western shifted. The close relationship of the Central and Eastern MBA Pannonians (HUN_LBA/Mezocsat = Channelled Ware largely, HRV_Jag_MBA = Encrusted Pottery) vs. the Western Pannonian/Western Balkan groups is absolutely striking. And its absolutely clear where the haplogroups trend towards, respectively. I also added the two Mezocsat outliers, just to make clear how different these more Eastern specimen are and that the majority of the Thraco-Cimmerians seems to have been indeed Pannonian in origin and related to Channelled Ware, just like the archaeological remains always indicated (dominance of Gáva standards in the common populace). This will be proven to be at the maximum as similar situation as with Avars and Slavs, with the majority being not steppe newcomers.

  7. #307
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13 => Y173822
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    I am surprised by this sample:

    Target: E-V13:HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832
    Distance: 2.5471% / 0.02547086
    70.0 Aegean_Neolithic
    19.6 Yamnaya
    8.6 Baltic
    1.8 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic

    Most certainly a Greek merchant, or a Southern Thracian, he is not close to the J2b2-L283 sample as he was hinting in anthrogenica. He was most probably over-generalizing the Neolithic influence and hitting on that ground.

  8. #308
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    What did you use for Pannonian-Carpathian Neolithic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I am surprised by this sample:

    Target: E-V13:HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832
    Distance: 2.5471% / 0.02547086
    70.0 Aegean_Neolithic
    19.6 Yamnaya
    8.6 Baltic
    1.8 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic

    Most certainly a Greek merchant, or a Southern Thracian, he is not close to the J2b2-L283 sample as he was hinting in anthrogenica. He was most probably over-generalizing the Neolithic influence and hitting on that ground.
    Imho the best fit would be a Geto-Scythian (Eastern/Southern influenced Daco-Thracian, going in the direction of Psenichevo-Babadag) with additional Greek admixture. Greek admixture was present in the West Pontic region. And yes, he is very Eastern, that's why he's being called "Eastern outlier" in the paper...

  9. #309
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13 => Y173822
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    If someone wants to check or improve the model, i did it on the quick, i might have missed something:

    Adriatic_Neolithic:HRV_C_Lasinja,0.1245415,0.17864 87,0.0203646,-0.0794311,0.0634221,-0.0394165,-0.0040146,-0.0018653,0.0439214,0.0813077,0.006049,0.0116523,-0.0208744,0.0006192,-0.0348462,-0.0067068,0.0184277,0.0031567,0.0110928,-0.0090042,-0.0059999,0.0057088,-0.0089047,-0.009931,-0.0061172West_Mediterranean:ITA_Sardinia_C,0.12876 24,0.1788602,0.0431804,-0.0573325,0.0789762,-0.030922,-0.0024676,-0.0017882,0.0582638,0.10023,0.0009741,0.0158296,-0.0345822,-0.0159125,-0.017389,-0.0007625,0.0133481,0.0034998,0.0070705,-0.0135534,0.000109,0.0013755,-0.0116161,-0.0280762,-0.0012573
    Aegean_Neolithic:GRC_Peloponnese_N,0.1192866,0.176 702,-0.0080704,-0.0965124,0.0409306,-0.0416662,-0.001645,-0.0051228,0.0253202,0.0726758,0.0066578,0.012499,-0.0241424,-0.0007708,-0.0353146,-0.0086448,0.0185666,0.000532,0.0104078,-0.0138568,-0.018193,0.0007172,-0.004289,-0.000699,-0.004766
    Aegean_Neolithic:GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA,0.1155 305,0.1675625,-0.0194215,-0.0805885,0.018773,-0.0352795,-0.003995,-0.007846,0.00634,0.049386,0.005846,0.014837,-0.0231165,0.006468,-0.026126,-0.0061655,0.0157115,0.003927,0.008485,-0.010192,-0.010107,-0.003462,0.001109,0.0046395,-0.0026345
    Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_LBK_MN,0.123498 ,0.1807643,0.0126335,-0.0942352,0.0580878,-0.0403695,-0.0029375,-0.003,0.0397798,0.084603,0.008769,0.0125138,-0.02111,0.0004818,-0.042107,-0.0149492,0.01105,-0.0005382,0.012821,-0.0153825,-0.013757,0.0095827,-0.0092128,-0.0026512,-0.002934
    Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Lengyel_LN,0.12 72922,0.1777177,0.0206787,-0.0799425,0.0635502,-0.040997,-0.0038777,-0.0036153,0.0460522,0.0810342,0.0099055,0.0092667,-0.0207628,0.0022018,-0.0366672,-0.0123087,0.0169498,0.0019425,0.0106215,-0.009442,-0.0118957,0.0040187,-0.006984,-0.0086758,-0.0011178
    Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_LN_EarlyC_Lengy el,0.124067,0.177718,0.019987,-0.082365,0.05878,-0.034861,0.00141,0.001615,0.051949,0.075081,0.0115 3,0.009741,-0.016353,0.008808,-0.036237,-0.023999,0.003781,0.005701,0.023757,-0.01063,-0.015722,0.005317,0.002218,-0.005061,-0.007185
    East_European_Neolithic:BGR_Middle_C,0.120652,0.17 1624,0.027153,-0.064923,0.052317,-0.026774,0.001175,0.002308,0.032519,0.062689,0,0.0 10191,-0.013677,-0.001101,-0.034744,-0.017634,-0.001173,0.005068,0.009804,-0.017008,-0.009733,0.008656,-0.010969,-0.015785,-0.002634
    East_European_Neolithic:UKR_Trypillia_En,0.132035, 0.165531,0.032809,-0.027778,0.065551,-0.0251,0.00282,0.012923,0.046631,0.057222,0.005684 ,-0.002248,-0.016353,-0.017065,-0.018322,0.000663,0.02725,0.004054,0.010559,-0.000875,0.010731,0.004451,-0.019596,-0.027835,-0.001437
    Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_CZE_early,0.1244463,0.1218 633,0.0657443,0.0725673,0.013233,0.025658,0.005091 7,0.0059997,-0.0139073,-0.0218683,-0.0048177,0.0029473,-0.0109513,-0.01601,0.0245657,0.0061433,-0.0093877,4.23e-05,-0.0027657,0.0030013,0.000416,-0.0009063,-0.0022593,0.002691,-0.0034727
    Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_FRA_C,0.132604,0.1340495,0 .0605275,0.0385985,0.041854,0.0107375,-0.00047,0.006346,0.008897,0.0126655,-0.00203,0.012889,-0.015089,-0.0157575,0.0143865,0.0117345,-0.007888,0.0023435,-0.0016965,0.001751,-0.0004365,0.0058115,-0.0009245,-0.001265,-0.00467
    Yamnaya:Yamnaya_BGR,0.113823,0.123895,0.034318,0.0 40375,0.003693,0.012829,0.003055,0.001615,-0.02127,-0.014579,0.005846,0.003897,-0.014271,0.00867,0.011401,-0.013524,-0.005998,0.000253,-0.000628,-0.004752,0.004742,0.005441,-0.002588,-0.000482,0.001197
    Yamnaya:Yamnaya_UKR,0.119514,0.0873355,0.0452545,0 .1106285,-0.028313,0.042531,0.00846,-0.003461,-0.0521535,-0.0707985,0.0002435,0.004421,-0.0043115,-0.0202305,0.0323015,0.0107395,-0.0002605,-0.011529,-0.005531,0.002376,-0.0028075,0.0004325,-0.009367,0.0192795,0.0031135
    West_Asian:ARM_Areni_C,0.1115468,0.1327805,-0.0316782,-0.0281818,-0.0278512,-0.005508,0.0022325,-0.0073265,-0.0236735,-0.0068795,0.007064,0.0064068,-0.0066528,-0.0040598,-0.0060735,-0.0100438,-0.0098115,0.0026922,0.0009428,-0.006941,-0.002901,0.0025965,0.0014175,-0.0031932,0.0047898
    West_Asian:TUR_Ikiztepe_LC,0.1093966,0.1521039,-0.0491094,-0.078166,-0.0101898,-0.0275171,0.004883,-0.0010769,-0.0284969,0.0206331,0.0077223,0.0062279,-0.0184669,0.0088997,-0.0163318,-0.0136716,0.0115028,0.0030546,0.007402,-0.0093239,-0.0019826,-0.0020198,-0.0019309,-0.00565,0.0034328
    Baltic:Baltic_LVA_MN,0.1293028,0.0706808,0.1523568 ,0.1945116,0.047578,0.0589576,-0.0050764,0.006323,0.0208204,-0.0559464,0.0052288,-0.0185234,0.0298512,-0.0275518,0.027931,0.036197,0.0010952,-0.0001266,-0.0074412,0.03104,0.0268278,0.0172372,-0.0087258,-0.0600808,0.0013894


  10. #310
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    What did you use for Pannonian-Carpathian Neolithic?



    Imho the best fit would be a Geto-Scythian (Eastern/Southern influenced Daco-Thracian, going in the direction of Psenichevo-Babadag) with additional Greek admixture. Greek admixture was present in the West Pontic region. And yes, he is very Eastern, that's why he's being called "Eastern outlier" in the paper...
    IMO, impossible he is Geto-Scythian. Not even mixed, a Southern Balkanite through and through. I did take in consideration each region, if he was Geto-Scythian he will get either Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic or East European Neolithic but he didn't.

    He is not Illyrian either. So, Greek is the better contender, or even Southern Thracian from the shores of Greek world.

  11. #311
    Regular Member
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    Country: Austria



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    If someone wants to check or improve the model, i did it on the quick, i might have missed something:
    Interesting that a model with Lengyel works so well. Probably the path is really from Lengyel with Unetician/Epi-Corded admixture. The Füzesabony sample is R-Z283, this might point to the real possibility of another theory being true: Pannonian groups got an infusion from the Epi-Corded zone, like from more Northern and Western Slovakia, groups like Nitra for example. This made them change once more, autosomally and culturally. However, as you can see on my PCA's, all later Channelled Ware samples score relatively more Southern and less Northern than Füzesabony on these plots. So either he was an outlier or the admixture from the Epi-Corded sphere got largely evened out and fairly equally distributed later.
    Its in any case apparent, also from your models, that between Middle Danubians : Channelled+Encrusted Ware the ratio of BB : CW admixture is different.

  12. #312
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Interesting that a model with Lengyel works so well. Probably the path is really from Lengyel with Unetician/Epi-Corded admixture. The F�zesabony sample is R-Z283, this might point to the real possibility of another theory being true: Pannonian groups got an infusion from the Epi-Corded zone, like from more Northern and Western Slovakia, groups like Nitra for example. This made them change once more, autosomally and culturally. However, as you can see on my PCA's, all later Channelled Ware samples score relatively more Southern and less Northern than F�zesabony on these plots. So either he was an outlier or the admixture from the Epi-Corded sphere got largely evened out and fairly equally distributed later.
    Its in any case apparent, also from your models, that between Middle Danubians : Channelled+Encrusted Ware the ratio of BB : CW admixture is different.
    Should we include some Corded sample as well to make a steppe triquetra: Bell Beaker, Corded, Yamnaya?

  13. #313
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Try with this one, the distance is lowered i think.

    Adriatic_Neolithic:HRV_C_Lasinja,0.1245415,0.17864 87,0.0203646,-0.0794311,0.0634221,-0.0394165,-0.0040146,-0.0018653,0.0439214,0.0813077,0.006049,0.0116523,-0.0208744,0.0006192,-0.0348462,-0.0067068,0.0184277,0.0031567,0.0110928,-0.0090042,-0.0059999,0.0057088,-0.0089047,-0.009931,-0.0061172West_Mediterranean:ITA_Sardinia_C,0.12876 24,0.1788602,0.0431804,-0.0573325,0.0789762,-0.030922,-0.0024676,-0.0017882,0.0582638,0.10023,0.0009741,0.0158296,-0.0345822,-0.0159125,-0.017389,-0.0007625,0.0133481,0.0034998,0.0070705,-0.0135534,0.000109,0.0013755,-0.0116161,-0.0280762,-0.0012573
    Aegean_Neolithic:GRC_Peloponnese_N,0.1192866,0.176 702,-0.0080704,-0.0965124,0.0409306,-0.0416662,-0.001645,-0.0051228,0.0253202,0.0726758,0.0066578,0.012499,-0.0241424,-0.0007708,-0.0353146,-0.0086448,0.0185666,0.000532,0.0104078,-0.0138568,-0.018193,0.0007172,-0.004289,-0.000699,-0.004766
    Aegean_Neolithic:GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA,0.1155 305,0.1675625,-0.0194215,-0.0805885,0.018773,-0.0352795,-0.003995,-0.007846,0.00634,0.049386,0.005846,0.014837,-0.0231165,0.006468,-0.026126,-0.0061655,0.0157115,0.003927,0.008485,-0.010192,-0.010107,-0.003462,0.001109,0.0046395,-0.0026345
    Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_LBK_MN,0.123498 ,0.1807643,0.0126335,-0.0942352,0.0580878,-0.0403695,-0.0029375,-0.003,0.0397798,0.084603,0.008769,0.0125138,-0.02111,0.0004818,-0.042107,-0.0149492,0.01105,-0.0005382,0.012821,-0.0153825,-0.013757,0.0095827,-0.0092128,-0.0026512,-0.002934
    Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Lengyel_LN,0.12 72922,0.1777177,0.0206787,-0.0799425,0.0635502,-0.040997,-0.0038777,-0.0036153,0.0460522,0.0810342,0.0099055,0.0092667,-0.0207628,0.0022018,-0.0366672,-0.0123087,0.0169498,0.0019425,0.0106215,-0.009442,-0.0118957,0.0040187,-0.006984,-0.0086758,-0.0011178
    Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_LN_EarlyC_Lengy el,0.124067,0.177718,0.019987,-0.082365,0.05878,-0.034861,0.00141,0.001615,0.051949,0.075081,0.0115 3,0.009741,-0.016353,0.008808,-0.036237,-0.023999,0.003781,0.005701,0.023757,-0.01063,-0.015722,0.005317,0.002218,-0.005061,-0.007185
    East_European_Neolithic:BGR_Middle_C,0.120652,0.17 1624,0.027153,-0.064923,0.052317,-0.026774,0.001175,0.002308,0.032519,0.062689,0,0.0 10191,-0.013677,-0.001101,-0.034744,-0.017634,-0.001173,0.005068,0.009804,-0.017008,-0.009733,0.008656,-0.010969,-0.015785,-0.002634
    East_European_Neolithic:UKR_Trypillia_En,0.132035, 0.165531,0.032809,-0.027778,0.065551,-0.0251,0.00282,0.012923,0.046631,0.057222,0.005684 ,-0.002248,-0.016353,-0.017065,-0.018322,0.000663,0.02725,0.004054,0.010559,-0.000875,0.010731,0.004451,-0.019596,-0.027835,-0.001437
    Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_CZE_early,0.1244463,0.1218 633,0.0657443,0.0725673,0.013233,0.025658,0.005091 7,0.0059997,-0.0139073,-0.0218683,-0.0048177,0.0029473,-0.0109513,-0.01601,0.0245657,0.0061433,-0.0093877,4.23e-05,-0.0027657,0.0030013,0.000416,-0.0009063,-0.0022593,0.002691,-0.0034727
    Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_FRA_C,0.132604,0.1340495,0 .0605275,0.0385985,0.041854,0.0107375,-0.00047,0.006346,0.008897,0.0126655,-0.00203,0.012889,-0.015089,-0.0157575,0.0143865,0.0117345,-0.007888,0.0023435,-0.0016965,0.001751,-0.0004365,0.0058115,-0.0009245,-0.001265,-0.00467
    Yamnaya:Yamnaya_BGR,0.113823,0.123895,0.034318,0.0 40375,0.003693,0.012829,0.003055,0.001615,-0.02127,-0.014579,0.005846,0.003897,-0.014271,0.00867,0.011401,-0.013524,-0.005998,0.000253,-0.000628,-0.004752,0.004742,0.005441,-0.002588,-0.000482,0.001197
    Yamnaya:Yamnaya_UKR,0.119514,0.0873355,0.0452545,0 .1106285,-0.028313,0.042531,0.00846,-0.003461,-0.0521535,-0.0707985,0.0002435,0.004421,-0.0043115,-0.0202305,0.0323015,0.0107395,-0.0002605,-0.011529,-0.005531,0.002376,-0.0028075,0.0004325,-0.009367,0.0192795,0.0031135
    West_Asian:ARM_Areni_C,0.1115468,0.1327805,-0.0316782,-0.0281818,-0.0278512,-0.005508,0.0022325,-0.0073265,-0.0236735,-0.0068795,0.007064,0.0064068,-0.0066528,-0.0040598,-0.0060735,-0.0100438,-0.0098115,0.0026922,0.0009428,-0.006941,-0.002901,0.0025965,0.0014175,-0.0031932,0.0047898
    West_Asian:TUR_Ikiztepe_LC,0.1093966,0.1521039,-0.0491094,-0.078166,-0.0101898,-0.0275171,0.004883,-0.0010769,-0.0284969,0.0206331,0.0077223,0.0062279,-0.0184669,0.0088997,-0.0163318,-0.0136716,0.0115028,0.0030546,0.007402,-0.0093239,-0.0019826,-0.0020198,-0.0019309,-0.00565,0.0034328
    Baltic:Baltic_LVA_MN,0.1293028,0.0706808,0.1523568 ,0.1945116,0.047578,0.0589576,-0.0050764,0.006323,0.0208204,-0.0559464,0.0052288,-0.0185234,0.0298512,-0.0275518,0.027931,0.036197,0.0010952,-0.0001266,-0.0074412,0.03104,0.0268278,0.0172372,-0.0087258,-0.0600808,0.0013894
    Corded_Ware_Horizont:Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL,0.09675,0.12491,0.073539,0.051034,0.03 3545,0.022311,0.0047,-0.015922,-0.012067,-0.014032,-0.006008,0.006894,0.010109,-0.020368,0.016829,0.002519,-0.022556,0.012289,0.012318,0.007379,-0.001747,0.014715,0.006162,0.013255,-0.000239
    Corded_Ware_Horizont:Corded_Ware_CZE_late,0.124338 1,0.11519,0.0537665,0.0826572,0.0107711,0.0293367, 0.0037937,0.0021098,-0.0216991,-0.0327678,-0.0030621,0.000999,-0.0050616,-0.0141751,0.0261876,0.0048553,-0.0076927,-5.43e-05,0.00249,0.0066758,0.0004218,0.0008183,0.0034568 ,0.0135073,-0.0004163


  14. #314
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Try with this one, the distance is lowered i think.
    not working

    states ....tabsource data 22: Error
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

  15. #315
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    not working
    states ....tabsource data 22: Error
    Yeah, interesting, try this one, this one worked on vahaduo, i just copied and pasting here.

    Code:
    Adriatic_Neolithic:HRV_C_Lasinja,0.1245415,0.1786487,0.0203646,-0.0794311,0.0634221,-0.0394165,-0.0040146,-0.0018653,0.0439214,0.0813077,0.006049,0.0116523,-0.0208744,0.0006192,-0.0348462,-0.0067068,0.0184277,0.0031567,0.0110928,-0.0090042,-0.0059999,0.0057088,-0.0089047,-0.009931,-0.0061172
    West_Mediterranean:ITA_Sardinia_C,0.1287624,0.1788602,0.0431804,-0.0573325,0.0789762,-0.030922,-0.0024676,-0.0017882,0.0582638,0.10023,0.0009741,0.0158296,-0.0345822,-0.0159125,-0.017389,-0.0007625,0.0133481,0.0034998,0.0070705,-0.0135534,0.000109,0.0013755,-0.0116161,-0.0280762,-0.0012573
    Aegean_Neolithic:GRC_Peloponnese_N,0.1192866,0.176702,-0.0080704,-0.0965124,0.0409306,-0.0416662,-0.001645,-0.0051228,0.0253202,0.0726758,0.0066578,0.012499,-0.0241424,-0.0007708,-0.0353146,-0.0086448,0.0185666,0.000532,0.0104078,-0.0138568,-0.018193,0.0007172,-0.004289,-0.000699,-0.004766
    Aegean_Neolithic:GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA,0.1155305,0.1675625,-0.0194215,-0.0805885,0.018773,-0.0352795,-0.003995,-0.007846,0.00634,0.049386,0.005846,0.014837,-0.0231165,0.006468,-0.026126,-0.0061655,0.0157115,0.003927,0.008485,-0.010192,-0.010107,-0.003462,0.001109,0.0046395,-0.0026345
    Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_LBK_MN,0.123498,0.1807643,0.0126335,-0.0942352,0.0580878,-0.0403695,-0.0029375,-0.003,0.0397798,0.084603,0.008769,0.0125138,-0.02111,0.0004818,-0.042107,-0.0149492,0.01105,-0.0005382,0.012821,-0.0153825,-0.013757,0.0095827,-0.0092128,-0.0026512,-0.002934
    Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Lengyel_LN,0.1272922,0.1777177,0.0206787,-0.0799425,0.0635502,-0.040997,-0.0038777,-0.0036153,0.0460522,0.0810342,0.0099055,0.0092667,-0.0207628,0.0022018,-0.0366672,-0.0123087,0.0169498,0.0019425,0.0106215,-0.009442,-0.0118957,0.0040187,-0.006984,-0.0086758,-0.0011178
    Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_LN_EarlyC_Lengyel,0.124067,0.177718,0.019987,-0.082365,0.05878,-0.034861,0.00141,0.001615,0.051949,0.075081,0.01153,0.009741,-0.016353,0.008808,-0.036237,-0.023999,0.003781,0.005701,0.023757,-0.01063,-0.015722,0.005317,0.002218,-0.005061,-0.007185
    East_European_Neolithic:BGR_Middle_C,0.120652,0.171624,0.027153,-0.064923,0.052317,-0.026774,0.001175,0.002308,0.032519,0.062689,0,0.010191,-0.013677,-0.001101,-0.034744,-0.017634,-0.001173,0.005068,0.009804,-0.017008,-0.009733,0.008656,-0.010969,-0.015785,-0.002634
    East_European_Neolithic:UKR_Trypillia_En,0.132035,0.165531,0.032809,-0.027778,0.065551,-0.0251,0.00282,0.012923,0.046631,0.057222,0.005684,-0.002248,-0.016353,-0.017065,-0.018322,0.000663,0.02725,0.004054,0.010559,-0.000875,0.010731,0.004451,-0.019596,-0.027835,-0.001437
    Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_CZE_early,0.1244463,0.1218633,0.0657443,0.0725673,0.013233,0.025658,0.0050917,0.0059997,-0.0139073,-0.0218683,-0.0048177,0.0029473,-0.0109513,-0.01601,0.0245657,0.0061433,-0.0093877,4.23e-05,-0.0027657,0.0030013,0.000416,-0.0009063,-0.0022593,0.002691,-0.0034727
    Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_FRA_C,0.132604,0.1340495,0.0605275,0.0385985,0.041854,0.0107375,-0.00047,0.006346,0.008897,0.0126655,-0.00203,0.012889,-0.015089,-0.0157575,0.0143865,0.0117345,-0.007888,0.0023435,-0.0016965,0.001751,-0.0004365,0.0058115,-0.0009245,-0.001265,-0.00467
    Yamnaya:Yamnaya_BGR,0.113823,0.123895,0.034318,0.040375,0.003693,0.012829,0.003055,0.001615,-0.02127,-0.014579,0.005846,0.003897,-0.014271,0.00867,0.011401,-0.013524,-0.005998,0.000253,-0.000628,-0.004752,0.004742,0.005441,-0.002588,-0.000482,0.001197
    Yamnaya:Yamnaya_UKR,0.119514,0.0873355,0.0452545,0.1106285,-0.028313,0.042531,0.00846,-0.003461,-0.0521535,-0.0707985,0.0002435,0.004421,-0.0043115,-0.0202305,0.0323015,0.0107395,-0.0002605,-0.011529,-0.005531,0.002376,-0.0028075,0.0004325,-0.009367,0.0192795,0.0031135
    West_Asian:ARM_Areni_C,0.1115468,0.1327805,-0.0316782,-0.0281818,-0.0278512,-0.005508,0.0022325,-0.0073265,-0.0236735,-0.0068795,0.007064,0.0064068,-0.0066528,-0.0040598,-0.0060735,-0.0100438,-0.0098115,0.0026922,0.0009428,-0.006941,-0.002901,0.0025965,0.0014175,-0.0031932,0.0047898
    West_Asian:TUR_Ikiztepe_LC,0.1093966,0.1521039,-0.0491094,-0.078166,-0.0101898,-0.0275171,0.004883,-0.0010769,-0.0284969,0.0206331,0.0077223,0.0062279,-0.0184669,0.0088997,-0.0163318,-0.0136716,0.0115028,0.0030546,0.007402,-0.0093239,-0.0019826,-0.0020198,-0.0019309,-0.00565,0.0034328
    Baltic:Baltic_LVA_MN,0.1293028,0.0706808,0.1523568,0.1945116,0.047578,0.0589576,-0.0050764,0.006323,0.0208204,-0.0559464,0.0052288,-0.0185234,0.0298512,-0.0275518,0.027931,0.036197,0.0010952,-0.0001266,-0.0074412,0.03104,0.0268278,0.0172372,-0.0087258,-0.0600808,0.0013894
    Corded_Ware_Horizont:Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL,0.09675,0.12491,0.073539,0.051034,0.033545,0.022311,0.0047,-0.015922,-0.012067,-0.014032,-0.006008,0.006894,0.010109,-0.020368,0.016829,0.002519,-0.022556,0.012289,0.012318,0.007379,-0.001747,0.014715,0.006162,0.013255,-0.000239
    Corded_Ware_Horizont:Corded_Ware_CZE_late,0.1243381,0.11519,0.0537665,0.0826572,0.0107711,0.0293367,0.0037937,0.0021098,-0.0216991,-0.0327678,-0.0030621,0.000999,-0.0050616,-0.0141751,0.0261876,0.0048553,-0.0076927,-5.43e-05,0.00249,0.0066758,0.0004218,0.0008183,0.0034568,0.0135073,-0.0004163
    Here is mine:


    Target: Hawk_scaled
    Distance: 2.5834% / 0.02583351
    28.0 Corded_Ware_Horizont
    28.0 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    25.4 Aegean_Neolithic
    9.0 Yamnaya
    8.2 West_Asian
    1.4 Baltic

  16. #316
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    11-11-19
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13 => Y173822
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    The point here is not to increase the distance, remember. Just leave it at zero, if you merge the components it will eventually fallback to and assign all of similar components to one. The algorithm is obviously not so advanced to know the difference, so we have to play around by flipping the sides of coin and manually comparing the results.

  17. #317
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    10-05-19
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    Australia
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    2,840

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 - SK1480
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1

    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Yeah, interesting, try this one, this one worked on vahaduo, i just copied and pasting here.
    Code:
    Adriatic_Neolithic:HRV_C_Lasinja,0.1245415,0.1786487,0.0203646,-0.0794311,0.0634221,-0.0394165,-0.0040146,-0.0018653,0.0439214,0.0813077,0.006049,0.0116523,-0.0208744,0.0006192,-0.0348462,-0.0067068,0.0184277,0.0031567,0.0110928,-0.0090042,-0.0059999,0.0057088,-0.0089047,-0.009931,-0.0061172
    West_Mediterranean:ITA_Sardinia_C,0.1287624,0.1788602,0.0431804,-0.0573325,0.0789762,-0.030922,-0.0024676,-0.0017882,0.0582638,0.10023,0.0009741,0.0158296,-0.0345822,-0.0159125,-0.017389,-0.0007625,0.0133481,0.0034998,0.0070705,-0.0135534,0.000109,0.0013755,-0.0116161,-0.0280762,-0.0012573
    Aegean_Neolithic:GRC_Peloponnese_N,0.1192866,0.176702,-0.0080704,-0.0965124,0.0409306,-0.0416662,-0.001645,-0.0051228,0.0253202,0.0726758,0.0066578,0.012499,-0.0241424,-0.0007708,-0.0353146,-0.0086448,0.0185666,0.000532,0.0104078,-0.0138568,-0.018193,0.0007172,-0.004289,-0.000699,-0.004766
    Aegean_Neolithic:GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA,0.1155305,0.1675625,-0.0194215,-0.0805885,0.018773,-0.0352795,-0.003995,-0.007846,0.00634,0.049386,0.005846,0.014837,-0.0231165,0.006468,-0.026126,-0.0061655,0.0157115,0.003927,0.008485,-0.010192,-0.010107,-0.003462,0.001109,0.0046395,-0.0026345
    Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_LBK_MN,0.123498,0.1807643,0.0126335,-0.0942352,0.0580878,-0.0403695,-0.0029375,-0.003,0.0397798,0.084603,0.008769,0.0125138,-0.02111,0.0004818,-0.042107,-0.0149492,0.01105,-0.0005382,0.012821,-0.0153825,-0.013757,0.0095827,-0.0092128,-0.0026512,-0.002934
    Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Lengyel_LN,0.1272922,0.1777177,0.0206787,-0.0799425,0.0635502,-0.040997,-0.0038777,-0.0036153,0.0460522,0.0810342,0.0099055,0.0092667,-0.0207628,0.0022018,-0.0366672,-0.0123087,0.0169498,0.0019425,0.0106215,-0.009442,-0.0118957,0.0040187,-0.006984,-0.0086758,-0.0011178
    Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_LN_EarlyC_Lengyel,0.124067,0.177718,0.019987,-0.082365,0.05878,-0.034861,0.00141,0.001615,0.051949,0.075081,0.01153,0.009741,-0.016353,0.008808,-0.036237,-0.023999,0.003781,0.005701,0.023757,-0.01063,-0.015722,0.005317,0.002218,-0.005061,-0.007185
    East_European_Neolithic:BGR_Middle_C,0.120652,0.171624,0.027153,-0.064923,0.052317,-0.026774,0.001175,0.002308,0.032519,0.062689,0,0.010191,-0.013677,-0.001101,-0.034744,-0.017634,-0.001173,0.005068,0.009804,-0.017008,-0.009733,0.008656,-0.010969,-0.015785,-0.002634
    East_European_Neolithic:UKR_Trypillia_En,0.132035,0.165531,0.032809,-0.027778,0.065551,-0.0251,0.00282,0.012923,0.046631,0.057222,0.005684,-0.002248,-0.016353,-0.017065,-0.018322,0.000663,0.02725,0.004054,0.010559,-0.000875,0.010731,0.004451,-0.019596,-0.027835,-0.001437
    Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_CZE_early,0.1244463,0.1218633,0.0657443,0.0725673,0.013233,0.025658,0.0050917,0.0059997,-0.0139073,-0.0218683,-0.0048177,0.0029473,-0.0109513,-0.01601,0.0245657,0.0061433,-0.0093877,4.23e-05,-0.0027657,0.0030013,0.000416,-0.0009063,-0.0022593,0.002691,-0.0034727
    Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_FRA_C,0.132604,0.1340495,0.0605275,0.0385985,0.041854,0.0107375,-0.00047,0.006346,0.008897,0.0126655,-0.00203,0.012889,-0.015089,-0.0157575,0.0143865,0.0117345,-0.007888,0.0023435,-0.0016965,0.001751,-0.0004365,0.0058115,-0.0009245,-0.001265,-0.00467
    Yamnaya:Yamnaya_BGR,0.113823,0.123895,0.034318,0.040375,0.003693,0.012829,0.003055,0.001615,-0.02127,-0.014579,0.005846,0.003897,-0.014271,0.00867,0.011401,-0.013524,-0.005998,0.000253,-0.000628,-0.004752,0.004742,0.005441,-0.002588,-0.000482,0.001197
    Yamnaya:Yamnaya_UKR,0.119514,0.0873355,0.0452545,0.1106285,-0.028313,0.042531,0.00846,-0.003461,-0.0521535,-0.0707985,0.0002435,0.004421,-0.0043115,-0.0202305,0.0323015,0.0107395,-0.0002605,-0.011529,-0.005531,0.002376,-0.0028075,0.0004325,-0.009367,0.0192795,0.0031135
    West_Asian:ARM_Areni_C,0.1115468,0.1327805,-0.0316782,-0.0281818,-0.0278512,-0.005508,0.0022325,-0.0073265,-0.0236735,-0.0068795,0.007064,0.0064068,-0.0066528,-0.0040598,-0.0060735,-0.0100438,-0.0098115,0.0026922,0.0009428,-0.006941,-0.002901,0.0025965,0.0014175,-0.0031932,0.0047898
    West_Asian:TUR_Ikiztepe_LC,0.1093966,0.1521039,-0.0491094,-0.078166,-0.0101898,-0.0275171,0.004883,-0.0010769,-0.0284969,0.0206331,0.0077223,0.0062279,-0.0184669,0.0088997,-0.0163318,-0.0136716,0.0115028,0.0030546,0.007402,-0.0093239,-0.0019826,-0.0020198,-0.0019309,-0.00565,0.0034328
    Baltic:Baltic_LVA_MN,0.1293028,0.0706808,0.1523568,0.1945116,0.047578,0.0589576,-0.0050764,0.006323,0.0208204,-0.0559464,0.0052288,-0.0185234,0.0298512,-0.0275518,0.027931,0.036197,0.0010952,-0.0001266,-0.0074412,0.03104,0.0268278,0.0172372,-0.0087258,-0.0600808,0.0013894
    Corded_Ware_Horizont:Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL,0.09675,0.12491,0.073539,0.051034,0.033545,0.022311,0.0047,-0.015922,-0.012067,-0.014032,-0.006008,0.006894,0.010109,-0.020368,0.016829,0.002519,-0.022556,0.012289,0.012318,0.007379,-0.001747,0.014715,0.006162,0.013255,-0.000239
    Corded_Ware_Horizont:Corded_Ware_CZE_late,0.1243381,0.11519,0.0537665,0.0826572,0.0107711,0.0293367,0.0037937,0.0021098,-0.0216991,-0.0327678,-0.0030621,0.000999,-0.0050616,-0.0141751,0.0261876,0.0048553,-0.0076927,-5.43e-05,0.00249,0.0066758,0.0004218,0.0008183,0.0034568,0.0135073,-0.0004163
    Here is mine:
    Target: Hawk_scaled
    Distance: 2.5834% / 0.02583351
    28.0 Corded_Ware_Horizont
    28.0 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    25.4 Aegean_Neolithic
    9.0 Yamnaya
    8.2 West_Asian
    1.4 Baltic
    it worked
    Distance to: Torzio_scaled
    0.06967182 Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
    0.07771560 Yamnaya:Yamnaya_BGR
    0.09964819 East_European_Neolithic:UKR_Trypillia_En
    0.10018328 East_European_Neolithic:BGR_Middle_C
    0.10319787 West_Asian:ARM_Areni_C
    0.10320471 Corded_Ware_Horizont:Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL
    0.11193968 Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_CZE_early
    0.11731321 Aegean_Neolithic:GRC_Koufonisi_Cycladic_EBA
    0.12528398 Corded_Ware_Horizont:Corded_Ware_CZE_late
    0.13029004 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_LN_EarlyC_Lengy el
    0.13240502 Adriatic_Neolithic:HRV_C_Lasinja
    0.13243124 West_Asian:TUR_Ikiztepe_LC
    0.13358530 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Lengyel_LN
    0.13876650 Aegean_Neolithic:GRC_Peloponnese_N
    0.14128138 West_Mediterranean:ITA_Sardinia_C
    0.14303012 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_LBK_MN
    0.19279264 Yamnaya:Yamnaya_UKR
    0.28668563 Baltic:Baltic_LVA_MN
    Target: Torzio_scaled
    Distance: 1.7453% / 0.01745329
    31.0 East_European_Neolithic
    30.4 Corded_Ware_Horizont
    19.4 Yamnaya
    16.0 Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
    3.2 West_Asian
    Last edited by torzio; 13-01-22 at 15:42.

  18. #318
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Location
    Honolulu
    Posts
    1,317

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13 => Y173822
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.

  19. #319
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,585

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Ancient Athenians used cremation rather extensively. Other areas mostly practiced inhumation. Of the 70 graves in the article above, 42 were inhumations, 22 were cremations, 4 were both and 2 are unknown.

  20. #320
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Location
    Honolulu
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    1,317

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13 => Y173822
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Ancient Athenians used cremation rather extensively. Other areas mostly practiced inhumation. Of the 70 graves in the article above, 42 were inhumations, 22 were cremations, 4 were both and 2 are unknown.
    Yes, i have read about Athenian regions during Early Iron Age, and it's interesting nevertheless.

  21. #321
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-11-19
    Location
    Honolulu
    Posts
    1,317

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13 => Y173822
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H5

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Some bronze tools from Belegis-Gava Culture, modern Serbia, Belgrade area. Late Bronze Age 1200-1000 B.C. The tools were likely deposited to be recycled/melted for recreating new bronze tools.


  22. #322
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
    Join Date
    11-06-18
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    1,287

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/J-Y197198

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    SNIP
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelmendasi View Post
    E-V13 samples:


    1) ALTper442; Middle-Late Avar (670-750 CE); E-PF2211


    2) KKper541; Late Avar (seventh century CE); E-PF2211


    3) KKper251; Late Avar (seventh century CE); E-Z21363


    4) SZKTper70; Late Avar (700-830 CE); E-Z21357


    5) PLEper23; Merged Conquering Hungarian and Commoner (tenth century CE); E-FGC11451


    6) SZKTper265; Late Avar (eighth century CE); E-B409


    7) SZKper130; Late Avar (700-750 CE); E-A10158


    8) TCSper18; Conquering Hungarian Elite (tenth century CE); E-BY6245


    9) SSDper144; Middle Avar (670-710 CE); E-BY5023


    10) KKper252; Late Avar (seventh century CE); E-Z36885


    11) PVper12; Late Avar (700-750 CE); E-Z5016


    12) TMHper199; Late Avar (700-760 CE); E-Z5016


    13) SZODper829; Early Avar (620-660 CE); E-CTS6377


    14) OBTper51; Late Avar (700-750 CE); E-CTS9320


    15) SHper182; Conquering Hungarian Commoner (tenth century CE); E-CTS9320


    16) OBTper106; Late Avar (eighth century CE); E-A10955


    17) ALTper369; Late Avar (710-750 CE); E-Z42778
    New E-V13 samples from https://www.nature.com/articles/jhg2011103
    There are also 3 L283 samples, including mine posted in the L283 thread.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    ― Franz Kafka

  23. #323
    Regular Member Fustan's Avatar
    Join Date
    29-05-15
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    263

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L283

    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    So.. avars are Daco-Thracian?

  24. #324
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/J-Y197198

    Country: Albania



    My guess would be that these are absorbed populations by the incoming horde, given the late presence in said populations. The earliest being Middle-Late Avar

    But lets leave that Daco-Thracian circular discussion for once. I find these new samples much more interesting.

    An interesting fact, among the 10th century Hungarian Conquering elite we have both L283 and E-V13. That's really cool.

  25. #325
    Regular Member Johane Derite's Avatar
    Join Date
    21-06-17
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    1,557

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E-V13>Z5018>FGC33625
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U1a1a

    Country: Albania



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    My guess would be that these are absorbed populations by the incoming horde, given the late presence in said populations. The earliest being Middle-Late Avar


    An interesting fact, among the 10th century Hungarian Conquering elite we have both L283 and E-V13.
    I'm afraid you and your buddies (fustan, entertain, mount123, etc) proved conclusively last week and with perfect evidence that Asian Avar invaders in the Balkans were impossible.

    Therefore this paper must be fake news!

    No Asian Avars in the Komani-Kruja culture, no Avars in Pannonia!

    It is a vatican conspiracy to hide the truth that the Avars were in fact the ALBANOI!

    No migratory populations in Illyria at all! All pure Illyrians that became Albanoi that became Albanians.

    All the archaeologists, physical anthropologists, historians, linguists, etc arguing otherwise are fools unlike you sublime divine minds and Illyrian defenders đź’Ş.

    No such thing as Avars, these simply must all have been proto-Albanian Illyrians.

    Jem ilira jem teuta, jem avara jem magjara đź’Ş!
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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