To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[ihype02]

Calculators like G25 will of course not spot any difference, since by Middle Bronze Age the whole South-East Europe would more or less have similar autosomal components, similar percentages with marginal differences with some more WHG in the North/West and more CHG in the South/East.

We know that Greek colonists of Campania and Spain during the Iron Age plotted with Mycenaeans too based on Academic studies.
I suspect Illyrians of Montenegro were shifted towards BGR_IA, so E-V13 was, IMO, present there. Even if there was no E-V13 among Illyrians, still pre Slavic Gheg Albanians would be 40%-45% Illyrian and the rest Thracian.

 

[torzio]

Jeez, Riverman. I am talking about Transdanubia, Western Hungary. Historically it was called Pannonia. During historical times there was no Daco-Thracian in Central Bohemia or Southern France where E-V13 was sctretching in La Tene. For me it's a clear-cut, obvious thing already that Daco-Thracians were exclusively E-V13, i am trying to find out if E-V13 was present at other ancient nations as well.

To me, it means E-V13 was roaming somewhere between East Alps and Western Carpathians, i cannot pinpoint exactly where, for Romania North-Western part for sure, but not that east, not really.

In addition, Matzinger in his 2021 book of Illyrians puts Proto-Illyrians in Eastern Alps which spread into Western Balkans probably during Middle Bronze Age, that gives us a hint the original Proto-Illyrians were really Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus-grave people who incorporated on their way J2b2-L283 which chances are already spoke some form of Indo-European.


Matzinger says that Thracian, Greek, Albanian and Messapian do not have common IE origin with Illyrian. This leaves a lot of things open for discussion.

He is correct
Matzinger in his 2021 book of Illyrians puts Proto-Illyrians in Eastern Alps

Illyrians are mixed with Italics and celtic people ...............and not with Thracian or Greeks or Albanians

BTW......thracians are comprised of 4 major groups ( Dacian, Moesian, Odyssian and Getae ) ..............they also have a sub-branch north of the black sea called Thracian-Cimmerian

 

[Riverman]

Iron Age Illyrians and Iron Age Greeks overlap with Bronze Age Illyrians and Bronze Age Greek.
So E-V13 being spread during the LBA would mean that E-V13 people that migrated to those zones were identical genetically for both of them, which is why I found this hypothesis a little odd.

Its not odd, because the picked up women on the way and on various occasions allied up with local groups too. So autosomally they will be way more mixed than on the patrilinear side. This is evident throughout, even the expansion from the Upper Tisza to the Banat was accompanied by cultural changes which are particularly common if a large portion of the local population was picked up, especially women, which created most of the pottery. But the general cultural package, the innovations, belief system, social order etc., was all copy-pasted from the Upper Tisza G?va core. So the males came in, turned the local population, took a lot of local women, some local men. And in the case of the Sea Peoples it seems that bands, clans and small tribal groups of both Daco-Thracians, Illyrians and Greeks among others did join together for a common enterprise. So these were very dynamic times, it was a migration period without a doubt, and just like in the later migration period, when Huns, Germanics, Iranians, Slavs and Dacians made various alliances, the same happened then in many regions. This also explains why E-V13 appears West of the Daco-Thracian territory, because we see the Channelled Ware elite penetrating the territory of the Middle Danubian Urnfielders in Transdanubia. The Middle Danubian Urnfielders were the descendents of the Middle Danubian Tumulus Culture largely, which was formative for the Illyrians to the South. They just split in a Pannonian group which cremated and had stronger Channelled Ware influence and a Southern which kept the inhumation in tumuli as their burial tradition. In the Middle Danubian Urnfielder zone, there were more extensive contacts to Kyjatice-G?va, contrary to the Southern Illyrian core area with the inhumation ritual.
One E-V13 came from Chotin, Slovakia, Vekerzug Thraco-Scythians. That's what we can read about the area:

The pottery fragement revealed in Grave 239 and deco-
rated with a herring bone motif could belong to an amphora
or to a vessel with a conical neck (Tab. 4/1). The closest
parallel of its decoration ? the combination of horizontal
channeling and rows of impressed dots ? is known from the
cemetery of Chot?n.20 This analogy helps the restoration of
the vessel of B?k?smegyer, since the herring bone pattern is
a frequent form of decoration both on the finds of the Laus-
athian and Kyjatice cultures.21 The sherd from B?k?smegyer
and the vessel from Chot?n can be connected to the Kyjatice
culture based on the evidence of morphological features.

You may read on in this very interesting and enlightening article, if its about the Hungarian plain:

The deco-
ration of its shoulder has the characteristics of the ceramic
production of the Upper Tisza Region during the Ha B1
period.27 The slanted fluting of its rim (Tab. 8/2?3) offers
evidence that it could have been produced during the transi-
tion of the Ha B1 and Ha B and Ha C periods.28 The com-
bination of these ornamentations can also be found in the
pottery manufacturing tradition of the G?va culture; the
two forms of decoration appear together on a bowl from
H?dmezőv?s?rhegy-Gorzsa-Cukortanya.

Altough the low-based shape and the high, conical, deco-
rated necks of the pots found in Graves 8 and 27 (Tab.1/3, 6)
are indicators of eastern stylistic connections, the burnished
impressed decoration on their shoulders shows local tradi-
tions. The pottery of the Piliny and the Kyjatice cultures,30
or possibly the traditions of the Belegi? II culture31 may have
affected their developement. As the form appears in greater
numbers in assemblages of the G?va culture 32 the vessels
found in the B?k?smegyer cemetery seem to primarily show
the connections maintained with the G?va culture during
the Ha B1 period.

The Daco-Thracian influence increased in the LBA-EiA transition:

At
the same time the high number of characteristics in shape
and motifs typical of the Kyjatice and G?va cultures indi-
cates that the population living in the Danube River Bend
Gorge region during the Ha B period maintained intensive
relations principally with communities inhabiting the Hun-
garian Northern Mountain Hills and the Great Hungarian
Plain.45
The material evidence of cultural interactions shows that
the intensity of communicaton increaeses during the HaB1
period at such a rate that it becomes visible in the deposition
of goods in burials.46 The warrior elite evolving on the Great
Hungarian Plain had an intense impact on the material cul-
ture of the neighbouring areas, which can be observed not
only in funerals but also in the composition of the hoards of
the Hajd?b?sz?rm?ny horizon and its customs of deposi-
tion.47 The influence of the warrior elite living in the Great
Hungarian Plain increases in the regions along the Danube
in Transdanubia during the Ha B3 and Ha C periods.

https://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576_0x003ace22.pdf

That's why the area under Channelled Ware influence yielded E-V13, the Southern core areas of Illyrians don't before the LBA-EIA transition, when Channelled Ware spread to those regions as well. The Channelled Ware people got the upper hand once they developed the mass production of first improved slashing type swords (advanced Naue II) and especially iron weapons. They were among the first in Europe to produce high quality iron weapons and "Hallstattisation" being to a large degree the influence of G?va and later Basarabi on the more Western Urnfield networks.

Its not by chance that almost all the main clades of E-V13 experienced a massive founder effect and further branching events during the LBA-EIA transition. Now we just see them being present were they should be and they aren't Illyrians from the Adriatic, because those are different, not that different autosomally, but they belong to a different cultural formation (Tumulus Culture/Glasinac) and have different patrilineages.

Most of the spread of Channelled Ware people happened initially along the river system of the Danube - in some areas going beyond it early (Northern Italy, Switzerland, Greece), on the Illyrian frontier being blocked - e.g. they were largely blocked in Northern Croatia, didn't go much further with great impact, only as more cultural and small scale influences.

 

[Riverman]

.........they also have a sub-branch north of the black sea called Thracian-Cimmerian

They are no subbranch in the linguistic sense, but it was a cultural horizon created by the invading Cimmerians, which seem to have picked up a lot of local Daco-Thracians in the course of events. We don't know how they look on the patrilinear side, with just one N sample so far. There are Prescythian samples in the British paper, which fit the bill for the Thraco-Cimmerian core group of Mezocsat, but unfortunately all of them are women. There is not a single male among them to say anything more about how much of the locals survived in the male lineages in this group.
The Thraco-Cimmerian horizon is important because this event destroyed the "Channelled Ware empire" or network. They truly cut through the Channelled Ware people like a wedge, separating the Northern groups in Transcarpathia from those in the South, on the Danube, from which Psenichevo-Basarabi emerged. This was a huge catastrophy for them on the one hand, on the other those which eventually might have joined their ranks or survived that onslaught did profit from the new network which was created, which directly led to Basarabi-Hallstatt and Thraco-Cimmerian elites far to the West. Fr?g is a prime candidate for a direct survivor of this tradition and its not by chance that they had among the most of Thraco-Cimmerian stuff in their elite burials plus marital ties with Basarabi and the Carpathian-Danubian zone.

 

[torzio]

They are no subbranch in the linguistic sense, but it was a cultural horizon created by the invading Cimmerians, which seem to have picked up a lot of local Daco-Thracians in the course of events. We don't know how they look on the patrilinear side, with just one N sample so far. There are Prescythian samples in the British paper, which fit the bill for the Thraco-Cimmerian core group of Mezocsat, but unfortunately all of them are women. There is not a single male among them to say anything more about how much of the locals survived in the male lineages in this group.
The Thraco-Cimmerian horizon is important because this event destroyed the "Channelled Ware empire" or network. They truly cut through the Channelled Ware people like a wedge, separating the Northern groups in Transcarpathia from those in the South, on the Danube, from which Psenichevo-Basarabi emerged. This was a huge catastrophy for them on the one hand, on the other those which eventually might have joined their ranks or survived that onslaught did profit from the new network which was created, which directly led to Basarabi-Hallstatt and Thraco-Cimmerian elites far to the West. Fr�g is a prime candidate for a direct survivor of this tradition and its not by chance that they had among the most of Thraco-Cimmerian stuff in their elite burials plus marital ties with Basarabi and the Carpathian-Danubian zone.

I never look at linguistics...............it is a useless tool for ethnicity

 

[Aspurg]

I got banned at last at Anthrogenica too. Good to be in the club. For attacking that little ***** Bruzmi. LOL I didn't say anything overly "aggressive". Other than suggesting he takes evidence into account. And I asked him, are you Selca, Nikci or Muriq. So if he is not V13 why does he post so much about this? And that J2b2 guy is thanking his every post.

I did mention he edits and war-edits at wikipedia, and apparently one or few of his friends at Anthrogenica also do. Someone posting so much nonsense should not be allowed on a serious board, but maybe some of his friends from edit-wars are there too, I might have hit a nerve there. Good.

I was never banned on any board before. Also I never reported anyone on any forum for anything. Unlike your "brave" Albanian, he cries to the mods all the time. I am more in line with "kanun", I find reporting sort of "dishonorable".

Anyway this "Thraco-Cimmerian" horizon needs investigating in detail. Because there were Cimmerians, in several cultures, and then this phenomenon.

So Riverman you are suggesting, that this wave compromised their Channelled Ware cohesion. The origin of Basarabi is not so clear. But the origin of Psenicevo group is. Our V13 should stem from Gava indirectly in the case of Psenicevo. Because the other alternative, Encrusted Pottery is a no (due to results).

 

[Polska]

I got banned at last at Anthrogenica too. Good to be in the club. For attacking that little ***** Bruzmi. LOL I didn't say anything overly "aggressive". Other than suggesting he takes evidence into account. And I asked him, are you Selca, Nikci or Muriq. So if he is not V13 why does he post so much about this? And that J2b2 guy is thanking his every post.

I did mention he edits and war-edits at wikipedia, and apparently one or few of his friends at Anthrogenica also do. Someone posting so much nonsense should not be allowed on a serious board, but maybe some of his friends from edit-wars are there too, I might have hit a nerve there. Good.

I was never banned on any board before. Also I never reported anyone on any forum for anything. Unlike your "brave" Albanian, he cries to the mods all the time. I am more in line with "kanun", I find reporting sort of "dishonorable".

Anyway this "Thraco-Cimmerian" horizon needs investigating in detail. Because there were Cimmerians, in several cultures, and then this phenomenon.

So Riverman you are suggesting, that this wave compromised their Channelled Ware cohesion. The origin of Basarabi is not so clear. But the origin of Psenicevo group is. Our V13 should stem from Gava indirectly in the case of Psenicevo. Because the other alternative, Encrusted Pottery is a no (due to results).

I think you were too honest for some folk over there at AG. Their loss, although I’m sorry you were banned. Seems excessive, but this is a weird time in history when it comes to censoring people with unconventional views.

Regarding Wikipedia, I’ve noticed that any reference to L283 and Illyrians has been removed from Wikipedia. I’m curious if this was done by someone who didn’t like the results from the Daunian study and the recent GB study, among others? Are these the edits that you’re referencing?

I think the moderators here are pretty reasonable. Whatever you do, don’t get banned here. You have some valuable insights on the Balkans and a deep understanding of the phylogeny of different Y lines in the region. I like reading your posts. I’ve learned a lot about my Y line over the years as a result of reading many of your posts here at Eupedia.

 

[Hawk]

I think you were too honest for some folk over there at AG. Their loss, although I’m sorry you were banned. Seems excessive, but this is a weird time in history when it comes to censoring people with unconventional views.

Regarding Wikipedia, I’ve noticed that any reference to L283 and Illyrians has been removed from Wikipedia. I’m curious if this was done by someone who didn’t like the results from the Daunian study and the recent GB study, among others? Are these the edits that you’re referencing?

I think the moderators here are pretty reasonable. Whatever you do, don’t get banned here. You have some valuable insights on the Balkans and a deep understanding of the phylogeny of different Y lines in the region. I like reading your posts. I’ve learned a lot about my Y line over the years as a result of reading many of your posts here at Eupedia.

Nope, the guy he is refering to is very likely J2b2-L283 himself. So, i highly doubt it.

 

[Riverman]

I got banned at last at Anthrogenica too. Good to be in the club. For attacking that little ***** Bruzmi. LOL I didn't say anything overly "aggressive". Other than suggesting he takes evidence into account. And I asked him, are you Selca, Nikci or Muriq. So if he is not V13 why does he post so much about this? And that J2b2 guy is thanking his every post.

I did mention he edits and war-edits at wikipedia, and apparently one or few of his friends at Anthrogenica also do. Someone posting so much nonsense should not be allowed on a serious board, but maybe some of his friends from edit-wars are there too, I might have hit a nerve there. Good.

I was never banned on any board before. Also I never reported anyone on any forum for anything. Unlike your "brave" Albanian, he cries to the mods all the time. I am more in line with "kanun", I find reporting sort of "dishonorable".

Too bad, I think reporting is ok, if its really bad behaviour, but first provoking, then reporting, that's obviously pretty sneaky to say the least. Is it a permanent ban?

Anyway this "Thraco-Cimmerian" horizon needs investigating in detail. Because there were Cimmerians, in several cultures, and then this phenomenon.

So Riverman you are suggesting, that this wave compromised their Channelled Ware cohesion. The origin of Basarabi is not so clear. But the origin of Psenicevo group is. Our V13 should stem from Gava indirectly in the case of Psenicevo. Because the other alternative, Encrusted Pottery is a no (due to results).

I think with Encrusted pottery we have a nother problem, because the influence and spread of this group is not big and wide enough, to easily explain the earliest expansion of E-V13. Their influence was, in comparison to Channelled Ware, much more regional. Whereas early splinters and small groups of Channelled Ware had with the start of Urnfield access to wide ranging, powerful networks, which makes a limited early spread easy to explain.
Otherwise everything must be explained by Psenichevo-Basarabi only, which is probably possible too, but much harder to do - even more so since most archaeologists which dealt with the subject claimed that the lasting impact and dominance of Channelled Ware was bigger than Encrusted Ware. Obviously the end result is culturally a fusion at the Danube, but the bigger weight has Channelled Ware/G?va.

 

[Hawk]

Too bad, I think reporting is ok, if its really bad behaviour, but first provoking, then reporting, that's obviously pretty sneaky to say the least. Is it a permanent ban?

Similar scenario to me as well. The dude with his "friends" reported one of my posts, probably more than 1 person. And the funny thing is the post wasn't even overly agressive, or any kind of insults. Petty i would say.

 

[Aspurg]

I think you were too honest for some folk over there at AG. Their loss, although I’m sorry you were banned. Seems excessive, but this is a weird time in history when it comes to censoring people with unconventional views.
Regarding Wikipedia, I’ve noticed that any reference to L283 and Illyrians has been removed from Wikipedia. I’m curious if this was done by someone who didn’t like the results from the Daunian study and the recent GB study, among others? Are these the edits that you’re referencing?
I think the moderators here are pretty reasonable. Whatever you do, don’t get banned here. You have some valuable insights on the Balkans and a deep understanding of the phylogeny of different Y lines in the region. I like reading your posts. I’ve learned a lot about my Y line over the years as a result of reading many of your posts here at Eupedia.

On these SJW (and i am very liberal but...) sites Albanians get away with talking anything because they are "victims", alongside other "victim" ethnicities. That is the bottom line.

It is a very bad idea for administrators or moderators of insignificant webspaces that are genetics sites to flex their non-existent muscles to me who moderated site ranked around 300 on Alexa, Anthrogenica is ranked 407,000.

And I doubt I will post here often if ever. I don't belong here, and I am used to being in charge. But I might try to make a deal with someone elsewhere. I still have a reputation and friends after all that you are not aware of..

I went to anthrogenica after an Albanian spread lies about my family there. Like they tried here. But a wrong genetic cluster. But recently I got a new close relative who hails from Romania/Transylvania and there is no chance there is any relation whatsoever with Albanian ethnicity. And my ancestors it does look now came from Romanian areas in Medieval times, with strong evidence for riders of the Apocalypse.

About Bruzmi, this is him on wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Maleschreiber

Originally at anthrogenica he was registered as "Maleschreiber", he edited alot "Illyrians" article as well
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Illyrians&action=history

Maybe he removed it, he waits for E-V13 to be found together with J-L283.

 

[Aspurg]

Too bad, I think reporting is ok, if its really bad behaviour, but first provoking, then reporting, that's obviously pretty sneaky to say the least. Is it a permanent ban?

Yes it is, as I once got banned before long ago after Bruzmi reported my posts probably alongside few other Albanians.
He cannot handle me in most debates. So he uses such sneaky tactics. He said literally that J-L283 and E-V13 were the same population. But many things he says are nonsense, and that should not be allowed.

But he is getting nervous because his case is increasingly hopeless, and it will only be downhill for him..

He has likely a friend from wikipedia there among the mods/admins. As I saw some prominent members there thanking some of his pretty average posts.

But then again, I wont worry much about 407,000 ranked site..

I think with Encrusted pottery we have a nother problem, because the influence and spread of this group is not big and wide enough, to easily explain the earliest expansion of E-V13. Their influence was, in comparison to Channelled Ware, much more regional. Whereas early splinters and small groups of Channelled Ware had with the start of Urnfield access to wide ranging, powerful networks, which makes a limited early spread easy to explain.
Otherwise everything must be explained by Psenichevo-Basarabi only, which is probably possible too, but much harder to do - even more so since most archaeologists which dealt with the subject claimed that the lasting impact and dominance of Channelled Ware was bigger than Encrusted Ware. Obviously the end result is culturally a fusion at the Danube, but the bigger weight has Channelled Ware/G�va.

What I meant is that we have so many Encrusted Pottery results from the Pannonian study and no V13. But we do have E-L539 (ofc V13) in Eastern Gava culture proper, that is the most important thing.

Pure Channelled Ware communities in the Balkans also existed, in some secluded enclaves.

 

[Hawk]

I don't think that he wants to make E-V13 Illyrian lineage, it's just a mask-up/coverage of his real intentions. It has nothing to do with Albanian ethnicity/nationalism or well-being. It's much more personal. So, your objections are not valid as well Aspurg when you are trying to portray that guy as representative of all Albanians.

He was going around and around claiming all E-V13 in Balkans is due to recent Middle-Age expansion from somewhere from Dardania/Kosovo for all E-V13 in all directions. He was exclusively quite opposed on E-V13 being quite present among Thracians and potentially present among Greeks. He was running in circles and obviously he didn't like the idea/reality that it was very widespread among Daco-Thracian populations.

 

[ihype02]

This female sample from Slovakian Hallstatt Vekerzug is my closest ancient sample. She has a mtDNA H1

Distance to:	Hawk_scaled
0.02996871	SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12105
0.03299762	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.03397282	HUN_IA_Syrmian_SremGroup:I18259
0.03438320	IND_Roopkund_B:I6936
0.03482785	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.03561805	HUN_La_Tene:I18493
0.03569511	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log02
0.03749184	DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1:NIEcap3b
0.03756047	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37
0.03811515	HRV_Pop_CAOP39
0.03823018	HRV_EIA:I23904
0.03832633	ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR55
0.03939553	IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
0.03943402	Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.03964654	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.03980929	HRV_EIA:I26742
0.04000153	GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.04000693	SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12098
0.04003507	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23205
0.04018759	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
0.04023831	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean:MOK17A
0.04031992	Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.04048246	ITA_Tarquinia_EMA:TAQ022
0.04074609	HUN_LBA_EIA:I11683
0.04081200	SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I11721
0.04085139	DEU_MA_ACD_Baiuvaric:NW_54
0.04117742	ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
0.04135765	ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR970
0.04174284	HRV_MBA:I4331
0.04206426	HUN_BA:I7043
0.04220230	DEU_MA_Alemannic_o2:NIEcap3c
0.04226506	VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK538
0.04232969	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ28
0.04239937	ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1287
0.04252108	ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1
0.04253080	UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
0.04253610	SRB_Mokrin_EBA_Maros:I23208
0.04254209	Levant_LBN_MA_o4:SI-53
0.04254560	HRV_LIA_La_Tene:I26735
0.04255467	HUN_La_Tene:I18491
0.04281506	HUN_IA_La_Tene_oEast:I18832
0.04297053	HRV_EBA:I3499
0.04324516	HRV_EIA:I24882
0.04341950	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ32
0.04353485	HUN_IA_La_Tene:I18529
0.04374269	ITA_Chiusi_EMA:ETR007
0.04392579	Scythian_MDA:scy305
0.04399249	DEU_MA_ACD_Nordic:STR_310
0.04406290	HUN_IA_La_Tene_o:I4998
0.04423490	HRV_IA:I3313

Target: Hawk_scaled Distance: 2.7935% / 0.02793452
49.2	TUR_Barcin_N
38.0	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.8	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.0	WHG

Target: SVK_IA_Vekerzug:I12105 Distance: 2.9510% / 0.02950952
38.2	TUR_Barcin_N
37.2	Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
21.6	TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
3.0	WHG

Hawk are you Gheg or Tosk? And do you mind sharing your coordinates, if you are Gheg?

 

[Riverman]

By the way, some of the samples coming probably closest to G?va/Channelled Ware and early Daco-Thracians are the new Thraco-Cimmerian samples, they plot exactly between Kyjatice, G?va and the E-V13 from La Tene Hungary and the J2b cluster. So just a little bit North/North East of them, even though they might have some real Cimmerian admixture, they still are primarily local Daco-Thracians and many of the Hungarian "Scythians" plot just like the G?va sample still, as the most North Eastward variation of these people, similar to F?zesabony:

https://ibb.co/71gwvMd

So even the late and probably admixed Daco-Thracians from Pannonia, from the Thraco-Cimmerian core group, can score pretty similar to the J2b/Illyrian cluster. There is just a general overlap of basic components ratio here.

Some examples of how these Thraco-Cimmerians score in comparison to a selection of some other relevant Pannonian-Carpathian-Balkan samples:

Distance to: Hungary_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat:I18211___Date:-775___Coverage_65.63%
0.03645638 Hungary_LT:I18527
0.03790514 Scythian_HUN:I20746
0.03798084 BGR_EBA:I2165

Distance to: Hungary_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat:I18213___Date:-775___Coverage_65.63%
0.03287116 BGR_EBA:I2165
0.03354655 Hungary_LT:I18527
0.03896735 J2B::I5691

Distance to: Hungary_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat:I18239___Date:-775___Coverage_66.49%
0.03081740 R1bZ:I23207
0.03118333 BGR_EBA:I2165
0.03327847 J2B::I5691
0.03686988 Slovakia_Vekerzug:I14465

Distance to: Hungary_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat:I18245___Date:-775___Coverage_68.31%
0.02904312 R1bZ:I4996
0.03069460 Scythian_HUN:I20746
0.03153734 Scythian_HUNA197
0.03248499 Hungary_LT:I18527
0.03542056 HUN_LBA_Kyjatice:I1504

Distance to: Hungary_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat:I18246___Date:-775___Coverage_67.64%
0.02714464 Hungary_LT:I18527
0.03007541 BGR_EBA:I2165
0.03852494 Slovakia_Vekerzug:I14465
0.03884865 R1bZ:I23207
0.03909868 Scythian_HUNA195
0.03915274 Scythian_HUNA197



Also note the reasonable fits, all below 0,04!

The J2b Illyrian cluster is close indeed and gets into the range quite often, but even more often samples from Pannonia and the Carpathian sphere top them. That's even easier to recognise if there is an actual Illyrian outlier! This individual looks like coming from the Illyrians:

Distance to: Hungary_EIA_Prescythian_Mezocsat_o3:I11683___Date:-775___Coverage_69.72%
0.03123643 J2B:I24639
0.03497661 J2B:I22940
0.03584851 J2B::I23911
0.03590331 J2B:I23995
0.03827002 J2B:I26726
0.03865594 Scythian_HUNA198
0.03979095 Slovakia_Vekerzug:I14465

Only in this sample all the top samples are from the J2b Illyrian cluster and it also plots in the midst of the J2b cluster on my PCA! That's a striking difference to the more typical Thraco-Cimmerians with a more clearly Pannonian cluster. Also check how low the distance is, even lower than for the others, which proves the homogeneity of the Illyrians. This individual was probably an Illlyrian bride, brought to the Thraco-Cimmerian centre.
Its just such a pity that they haven't sampled a dozen or so Mezocsat males, because looking at these samples autosomal make up, I'm pretty sure some E-V13 would have popped up among them.

What really sets the Pannonians apart though is the increased WHG and lowered Neolithic ancestry:

https://ibb.co/sWQGhdX

Note the Illyrian outlier with much lowered WHG, increased Neolithic. The Eastern oulier among the LT samples from Hungary with E-V13 is even much below the Illyrians for his Yamnaya and WHG share. He is simply very mixed with more Eastern and Southern elements, going in the direction of Bulgarian EBA/IA.

Both the Mezocsat and E-V13 La Tene samples are not fundamentally different from Illyrians, just somewhat more Northern shifted. Also note that they have nearly zero East Asian admixture, unlike other "Cimmerians". They are genetically with high probability overwhelmingly Daco-Thracians.
The more Northern Pannonians main feature is the increased WHG ancestry. The Illyrians have as much or more Yamnaya, but on average less WHG, while there is still no clear cut border, but just a fluent transitioning between them.

 

[Hawk]

I have never encountered any literature classifying any population living in Western Hungary, Western Slovakia, or Central Bohemia as Daco-Thracian. That's just nonsense IMO. Those E-V13 remains among La Tene are very likely remains from older populations, the ones who contributed in various Danubian Urnfield cultures, and the the big bulk of it migrated during the LBA transition in Balkans and eventually forming Daco-Thracians latter on. But it cannot go in reverse.

 

[Riverman]

I have never encountered any literature classifying any population living in Western Hungary, Western Slovakia, or Central Bohemia as Daco-Thracian. That's just nonsense IMO. Those E-V13 remains among La Tene are very likely remains from older populations, the ones who contributed in various Danubian Urnfield cultures, and the the big bulk of it migrated during the LBA transition in Balkans and eventually forming Daco-Thracians latter on. But it cannot go in reverse.

There are at least three inputs from the Daco-Thracians to the West:
- Channelled Ware infiltration, I quoted it already, its especially about elite warriors from the Hungarian plain which not just infiltrated Transdanubia, but pushed and caused migrations of these Pannonians to the West. Some of these movements could have involved E-V13 and J-L283 side by side
- Thraco-Cimmerian horizon - this was just a very big and highly influential push from the steppe, which caused the assimilation of various Daco-Thracian tribes which pushed on, deep into the West, into Southern Germany and Northern Italy even:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian
This was a pulse but it resulted in lasting relations to
- The Basaraboid-Hallstatt connection. Especially in the earliest phase, and in groups like Fr?g and Kalenderberg, but again up the Danube to Bavaria, we find significant Basarabi related influences:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...um_und_Mitteleuropa_wahrend_der_Hallstattzeit

This influence was, like some burials in Fr?g prove, accompanied by elites and their retinue migrating West, rarely if ever East. So this was primarily an East -> West gene flow. However, this changed already during developed Hallstatt in some areas and even more so in La Tene, when there was a massive West -> East migration.

And talking about the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, its like with the Hunnic empire, it some cultural and archaeological centres and one of the main centres was the Mezocsat culture. Just like later the Vekerzug Scythians were Thraco-Scythians in all likelihood. If you read up on Vekerzug, its basically Pannonians and/or Daco-Thracians adopting Scythian ways.
The other relevant group being Ferigile. These were basically Daco-Thracians and being closely connected to Basarabi - the connection therefore goes Basarabi -> Ferigile -> Vekerzug:

Die eisernen Streitmesser zeigen zwei Verbreitungsschwerpunkte ? in der Vekerzug-Kultur, wo diese seit Ha D1 vorkommen, und in s?dlichen Vorkarpaten und am unteren Donaugebiet, wo sie schon auf den Fundpl?tzen der Basarabi-Kultur und besonders der nachfolgenden Ferigile-Kultur h?ufig vetreten sind (Vulpe 1990, 81?91, Taf. 26, 27, 28, 29: 184?191). Der Waffenkanon beider genannten Kulturregionen weist auch andere Gemeinsamkeiten auf, die sich z. B. im Vorkommen von fast identischen eisernen bzw. bronzenen l?nglich-trapezf?rmigen Scheiden und Lanzensch?tzern niederschlagen, deren Verbreitung sich wie auch im Falle der Streitmesser weitgehend auf die Vekerzug- und Ferigile-Kultur beschr?nkt (Abb. 13: 3). In der Ferigile-Kultur wurden solche Schneiden im Laufe der zweiten H?lfte des 7. Jhs. und des ganzen 6. Jhs. v. Chr. im Gebrauch. Die Beifunde aus den Vekerzuger Gr?bern datieren Schneiden und Lanzensch?tzer in die entwickelten Stufe Ha D1 und in die Stufe Ha D2 bzw. an den Anfang Ha D3 und es ist daher evident, dass eiserne Streitmesser zusammen mit Schneiden unter den Einfl?ssen der Ferigile-Kultur in die Vekerzug-Kultur ?bergenommen wurden (Vulpe 1990, 97?102, Taf. 32, 33; Kozubov? 2013a, 105 f., Abb. 33)

https://fphil.uniba.sk/fileadmin/fi...h/MusArch/4_1/3_kozubova__MA_1_2019_final.pdf

But they rarely crossed into the Western Hungarian area. The Thraco-Cimmerian horizon however, at least as an influence and small group migration event, is very real.

 

[Hawk]

I was right on my assumptions. Romanian archeologists consider the Polgar region in Eastern Hungary as Pre/Proto-Gava originated: https://www.academia.edu/50256053/The_Late_Bronze_Age_Gáva_pottery_from_the_Lower_Mureș,

Similar ancestral groups inhabited here, Nagyrev/Ottomany then Vatya/Hatvan and it's hard to pinpoint the origin.

All in all, this is exactly the Middle Danube region.

 

[Riverman]

Various groups you mentioned intermix, especially late Otomani F?zesabony and Nagyrev being interesting. But remind you on this:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...kan-case/page9?p=635020&viewfull=1#post635020

The point is, the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture pushed the groups to the East, and its from the Upper Tisza, where different elements amalgameted, that pre-G?va came up. In that map its just the very North East of the Middle Danubian part, whereas most of the Middle Danubian area was occupied by Tumulus Culture and later Middle Danubian Urnfield which grew out of it. Its geographically the Middle Danube, yes, but culturally Middle Danubian Tumulus culture, and Middle Danubian Urnfield culture have specific meanings. As does Kyjatice-G?va/Channelled Ware, which was seperate from those.
In the developed phase, the bend was borderline and in the end phase of the Bronze Age, Channelled Ware influenced reached all the way from the Upper to the Lower basin and beyond. But the main expansive Southern core with Belegis II-G?va was were teh Middle and Lower Danube region met.

I made a map, green shows the Tumulus culture push which caused the Middle Danubian Tumulus culture to expand East and South, the white and black arrows represent G?va and Channelled Ware expansions:

https://ibb.co/5KwmKwP

The Middle Danubian Tumulus culture influence prevailed in the MBA, pushing various Pannonian groups, including F?zesabony, eastward. In the very late Bronze Age to Iron Age transiton, Channelled Ware being more influential in most regions, but there was still influence in both directions, but rather from the successor of the Middle Danubian TC, the Middle Danubian Urnfield group, whereas the Southern inhumation groups of the Illyrians got more isolated.

 

[Hawk]

There are at least three inputs from the Daco-Thracians to the West:
- Channelled Ware infiltration, I quoted it already, its especially about elite warriors from the Hungarian plain which not just infiltrated Transdanubia, but pushed and caused migrations of these Pannonians to the West. Some of these movements could have involved E-V13 and J-L283 side by side
- Thraco-Cimmerian horizon - this was just a very big and highly influential push from the steppe, which caused the assimilation of various Daco-Thracian tribes which pushed on, deep into the West, into Southern Germany and Northern Italy even:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian
This was a pulse but it resulted in lasting relations to
- The Basaraboid-Hallstatt connection. Especially in the earliest phase, and in groups like Fr�g and Kalenderberg, but again up the Danube to Bavaria, we find significant Basarabi related influences:
https://www.researchgate.net/public...um_und_Mitteleuropa_wahrend_der_Hallstattzeit

This influence was, like some burials in Fr�g prove, accompanied by elites and their retinue migrating West, rarely if ever East. So this was primarily an East -> West gene flow. However, this changed already during developed Hallstatt in some areas and even more so in La Tene, when there was a massive West -> East migration.

And talking about the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, its like with the Hunnic empire, it some cultural and archaeological centres and one of the main centres was the Mezocsat culture. Just like later the Vekerzug Scythians were Thraco-Scythians in all likelihood. If you read up on Vekerzug, its basically Pannonians and/or Daco-Thracians adopting Scythian ways.
The other relevant group being Ferigile. These were basically Daco-Thracians and being closely connected to Basarabi - the connection therefore goes Basarabi -> Ferigile -> Vekerzug:


https://fphil.uniba.sk/fileadmin/fi...h/MusArch/4_1/3_kozubova__MA_1_2019_final.pdf

But they rarely crossed into the Western Hungarian area. The Thraco-Cimmerian horizon however, at least as an influence and small group migration event, is very real.

But your sources are vague. Indirect and nothing conclusive. I wouldn't rush so much IMO. Initially i would generalize the region then when we have more facts we can scope it down to specific culture if that really happened.