To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[Hawk]

Worth noting that the Chalcidian type of helmet was the most common helmet found among Thracian warriors.

So, Thracian noble warriors would probably look like depicted here (though the helmet looks a bit more closed than the Chalcidian one). For close combat they probably would either carry a makhaira sword, romphaia or newer versions of Reutzlingen swords.

So, slightly more opened version than the above, like the Seuthes helmet. But ofcourse less fancy/decorated.

And secondly, the so called Thraco-Phrygian helmet was the most common after Chalcidian helmet. Slightly more armored version of Peltasts but still within the confines of a Peltast warrior. Carrying romphaia and spears.

And a very light/mobile peltast warrior. Very common and mobile/lightweight warriors.

 

[Hawk]

Some of helmets found among Thracians, as i said before Chalcidian type was the most common which is the first helmet from the left on second row followed by Phrygian type of helmets.

The Illyrian type of helmet was quite rare and interesting enough it appears with golden decoration which occurred only among Enchelei/Trebenishte Illyrians.

Enchelei/Trebenishte Culture helmets

Phrygian-Thracian type of helmet

 

[J Man]

I have seem some talk of some upcoming possible Glina-Schneckenberg and related culture samples from Bronze Age Bulgaria having J2a. Hopefully soon there will be some confirmation of this.

 

[Hawk]

I have seem some talk of some upcoming possible Glina-Schneckenberg and related culture samples from Bronze Age Bulgaria having J2a. Hopefully soon there will be some confirmation of this.

That's likely, one of those particular cultures had a recent Bronze Age Anatolian origin afaik.

 

[J Man]

That's likely, one of those particular cultures had a recent Bronze Age Anatolian origin afaik.

Yes I agree an Anatolian origin is certainly very possible.

 

[Dushman]

Worth noting that the Chalcidian type of helmet was the most common helmet found among Thracian warriors.

So, Thracian noble warriors would probably look like depicted here (though the helmet looks a bit more closed than the Chalcidian one). For close combat they probably would either carry a makhaira sword, romphaia or newer versions of Reutzlingen swords.

The only thing “Thracian” about this warrior is his shield’s shape. That helmet is of the Corinthian type by the way, and the tunic and cloak pattern are too basic, lacking the typical Thracian patterns. That heavy bronze cuirass fits better a slow paced early Spartan Royal Guard or Cretan elite units rather than Thracian elites.

So the guy depicted there could only represent a rare Thracian chieftain type.

 

[Hawk]

The only thing “Thracian” about this warrior is his shield’s shape. That helmet is of the Corinthian type by the way, and the tunic and cloak pattern are too basic, lacking the typical Thracian patterns. That heavy bronze cuirass fits better a slow paced early Spartan Royal Guard or Cretan elite units rather than Thracian elites.

So the guy depicted there could only represent a rare Thracian chieftain type.

I already noted his helmet is too closed, Corinthian types were used among Odrysians but the more opened version of Corinthian called Chalcidian was the most widely used helmet among Thracians followed by the Phrygian-like helmets.

 

[Hawk]

For the sake of information: https://www.researchgate.net/public...astern_kind_of_Mediterranean_Impresso_pottery

There was an influence of Mediterranean Cardial Farmers (ultimate origin of E-L618) in Northern Black Sea, although i don't really believe E-V13 arose in Eastern Europe, it just doesn't make sense with current phylogenetic tree where the initial split happens in Central-Western Europe (best chance is Michelsberger Culture considering it's the only Neolithic site with more than few E-M78 samples with the rest being lonely wolfs). I do believe very early they just followed the river paths, mainly Danube and after a population boom during MBA/LBA colonized initially Carpathian Basin and then Balkans.

 

[Hawk]

Well, interesting read.

But by about the fourteenth century fundamental changes had begun to affect both regions. In the north expansion had been replaced by
contraction to its Carpathian core, in which the long lasting Otomani-
Wietenberg culture was yielding to the Gava-Holihrady. Agriculturally and
metallurgically the area was still wealthy but internal unrest appears to
have been considerable 46 and fortified settlements were increasing in



" N. Tasic, "The Problem of "Mycenaean influences" in the Middle Bronze Age Cultures
in the Southeastern part of the Carpathian Basin', Balcanica 4, 1973, 19-37.

46 M. Rusu, 'Die Verbreitung der Bronzehorte in Transsilvanien vom Ende der Bronzezeit
bis in die Mittlere Hallstattzeit', Dacia NS 7, 1963, 177-210.



64 R. F. HODDINOTT



number, size and importance. 47 An achievement of the Gava culture was
its breaching of the lower Danube-Stara Planina barrier, and the
influence of its bossed and channelled pottery spread southwards to affect
the Chatalka and the Pshenichevo cultures of the Thracian Plain, the
Babadag of the West Pontic coastline and the Megalithic of the eastern Rhodope and Strand j a hills. 48


https://archive.org/stream/ThraciansAndMycenaeansProceedingsOfFourthInternationalCongressOf/bulgaria_thracian-mycenaean_djvu.txt

 

[Riverman]

For the sake of information: https://www.researchgate.net/public...astern_kind_of_Mediterranean_Impresso_pottery

There was an influence of Mediterranean Cardial Farmers (ultimate origin of E-L618) in Northern Black Sea, although i don't really believe E-V13 arose in Eastern Europe, it just doesn't make sense with current phylogenetic tree where the initial split happens in Central-Western Europe (best chance is Michelsberger Culture considering it's the only Neolithic site with more than few E-M78 samples with the rest being lonely wolfs). I do believe very early they just followed the river paths, mainly Danube and after a population boom during MBA/LBA colonized initially Carpathian Basin and then Balkans.

Lengyel and K?r?s related samples from the Carpathian basin could be interesting. So far Lengyel is still older than Micheslberger and they expanded westwards and influenced the Michelsberger - exactly close to the regions which brought up E1b1b, whereas more Northern Michelsberger further away from the river paths had none. Will be seen.

 

[Riverman]

The article on the Avars is out, we might have our first E-V13 in a Sarmatian context and from the Upper Tisza region, the possible heartland of E-V13!

Ancient genomes reveal origin and rapid trans-Eurasian migration of 7th century Avar elites
Guido Alberto Gnecchi-Ruscone et al
https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(22)00267-7

Highlights

?Long-distance and rapid trans-Eurasian migration during the 7th century Avar period
?Striking genetic similarity between early Avar elites and the Rouran in Mongolia
?Substantial genetic variation mirroring social and micro-geographic structure
?High eastern Eurasian ancestry maintained in the Avar period elites for 200 years

Summary
The Avars settled the Carpathian Basin in 567/68 CE, establishing an empire lasting over 200 years. Who they were and where they came from is highly debated. Contemporaries have disagreed about whether they were, as they claimed, the direct successors of the Mongolian Steppe Rouran empire that was destroyed by the Turks in ∼550 CE. Here, we analyze new genome-wide data from 66 pre-Avar and Avar-period Carpathian Basin individuals, including the 8 richest Avar-period burials and further elite sites from Avar?s empire core region. Our results provide support for a rapid long-distance trans-Eurasian migration of Avar-period elites. These individuals carried Northeast Asian ancestry matching the profile of preceding Mongolian Steppe populations, particularly a genome available from the Rouran period. Some of the later elite individuals carried an additional non-local ancestry component broadly matching the steppe, which could point to a later migration or reflect greater genetic diversity within the initial migrant population.

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(22)00267-7

There are 3 potential E-V13 carriers among them, as far as I can see:

I20799 P7224; O:53, S:62 Derecske-Hossz? lapos 53/62. Hungary Transtisza region 8th century AD Avar Late Avar Late Avar Period cemetery, partly excavated iron belt buckle poor/average Zolt?n Farkas (Salisbury Ltd.) + D?ri Museum, Debrecen Tam?s Hajdu, Antonia Marcsik and Tam?s Szeniczey female, 18-20 years old pars petrosa l.s. male U5a2e E1b1b1a1b1 (L618) 47.353162 21.511603 Possible eatern European population + admixture with others... - it started with the similar population as Derecske Karakas but continued with mixed population! And we found same deformation type as in Karakas cemetery! The cemetery started in the late phase of te Early Avar period and continued in the Late Avar Period

I16750 n/a K?vegy?Nagy-f?ldek (M43/49) obj. 28, str. 41 Hungary South-East Hungary, Transtisza/Maros region first half of 7th century Avar Early Avar Early Avar cemetery (partly excavated) no grave goods, reversed oriantation YES poor and irregular Andr?s Benedek Ant?nia Marcsik 50-59-year-old male pars petrosa l.s. H35 E1b1b1a1b1a We took the petrous and tooth within the framework of the pathogen project but it is possible that I can arrange to get the permission to use it for population history point of view too.

This is the Sarmatian individual:

I20802 P7226; O:54, S:54 Derecske-Karakas dűlő 54./54. Hungary Transtisza region 3rd century AD Sarmatian Sarmatian Roman/Sarmatian period Sarmatian cemetery Roman bronze coin, bronze arm ring, iron sickle (?), iron object. (average) Zolt?n Farkas (Salisbury Ltd.) + D?ri Museum, Debrecen Tam?s Hajdu, Antonia Marcsik and Tam?s Szeniczey male, 25-34 years old pars petrosa l.d male H41a E1b1b1a1b1a (Page102, L142.1) 47.370104 21.527122

From the supplement:

I20802 - Feature 55/Str. 55
Grave of a 25-34 years old male. The grave pit is rectangular (265cm x 110cm x 88cm).
Orientation SE-NW. In the northeast corner of the shaft, at a depth of 55 cm, the long bones of
an adult were found, in a secondary position. The tomb, however, belonged to a child. The
burial was disturbed; the child's bones were partially found in a secondary position.
Grave goods: 1. Bronze bracelet. 2. Fragment of an iron sickle(?). 3. Bronze coin. 4. Iron object.
The genomic profile of this individual matches the one of the later Sarmatian period individuals
from the same region, Transtisza (LS_P_Transtisza_4−5c) that overall matches also the
ancestry of the Szolad_others_6c group and was therefore included in the
LS_P_Transtisza_4−5c group for the group-based analyses (Fig xvii).

https://www.cell.com/cms/10.1016/j....492b2f18-e376-4763-b410-2c08e99698a0/mmc5.pdf

The place Derecske-Karakas dűlő is close to the former core zone of G?va/Belegis II-G?va/Basarabi. Might be a coincidence, but it's yet another nail to the coffin of the idea of a late Roman era dispersal North of the Danube.

 

[Hawk]

14 years ago Dienekes and Maju were discussing the origin of E-V13, Dienekes proposed a Late Bronze Age expansion from North of Greece, whereas Maju proposed a Danubian Neolithic in and around Northern Balkans.

Both of them were right in a way, in that E-V13 indeed did have a Late Bronze Age expansion (as was hinted by Dienekes) and that it started from Carpatho-Danubian region (as the pattern was spotted by Maju, but he was wrong in that it was scattered widespread from Danubian Neolithic times something which was opposed by Dienekes since it's impossible due to the subclades age).

To me a good candidate is Northern Vinca-Turdas (though, other local Neolithic related cultures are equally possible) who had contacts with Carpathian Basin and took shelter in Oltenia and in Carpathian Mountain chain network and surroundings then bounced back in Late Bronze Age with Gava and the broader Kanellure/Channeled-Ware phenomenon, the type of people who are also called as Eastern Urnfield/Eastern Hallstatt or Carpathian Urnfield.

The starting point is not Illyria or Western Balkans, South-Western Balkans excluding Dalmatia was probably just the meeting point when E-V13 expanded and invaded the Southern Balkans region meeting the resistance of local people.

 

[Riverman]

14 years ago Dienekes and Maju were discussing the origin of E-V13, Dienekes proposed a Late Bronze Age expansion from North of Greece, whereas Maju proposed a Danubian Neolithic in and around Northern Balkans.

Both of them were right in a way, in that E-V13 indeed did have a Late Bronze Age expansion (as was hinted by Dienekes) and that it started from Carpatho-Danubian region (as the pattern was spotted by Maju, but he was wrong in that it was scattered widespread from Danubian Neolithic times something which was opposed by Dienekes since it's impossible due to the subclades age).

To me a good candidate is Northern Vinca-Turdas (though, other local Neolithic related cultures are equally possible) who had contacts with Carpathian Basin and took shelter in Oltenia and in Carpathian Mountain chain network and surroundings then bounced back in Late Bronze Age with Gava and the broader Kanellure/Channeled-Ware phenomenon, the type of people who are also called as Eastern Urnfield/Eastern Hallstatt or Carpathian Urnfield.

The starting point is not Illyria or Western Balkans, South-Western Balkans excluding Dalmatia was probably just the meeting point when E-V13 expanded and invaded the Southern Balkans region meeting the resistance of local people.

Yes, there was a broad zone of interaction, basically both the Illyrian J-L283 and the Thracian E-V13 met along a long line from the Middle Danube down to Greece. The areas of Albania and to the North and East of Albania were "disputed territories" and at one point this side pushed, at another the other side. Which led to the long term mixture in Albanian-Greek areas.

The other individuals with the same autosomal make up of Transtisza Sarmatians have actual Sarmatian, but majority wise Germanic-Celtic paternal haplogroups:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...E-V13-in-China&p=839498&viewfull=1#post839498

Another potentially Germanic-Lusatian-Dacian related find will come up from Poland, from Masłomęcz:

PCA0110 - Masłomęcz E-V13 (E1b) 1760 Poland - Wielbark undetermined

https://haplotree.info/maps/ancient...aplotree_Variant&searchfor=E-V13&ybp=500000,0

 

[EV13SON]

Well I have always been a fan of Bacchus so I will drink to this news, cheers :beer1:

 

[enter_tain]

Riverman never stops with his agenda. They found Sarmatian EV-13 and he goes "iLlyRiAn J2B2 aNd tHrAcIaN eV13". Amazing logic.

No population has been 100% in Europe. Ever. Even Yamnaya were I2.

 

[Riverman]

Riverman never stops with his agenda. They found Sarmatian EV-13 and he goes "iLlyRiAn J2B2 aNd tHrAcIaN eV13". Amazing logic.

No population has been 100% in Europe. Ever. Even Yamnaya were I2.

It doesn't have to be 100 percent for a clear association. But its clear by now that E-V13 was largely associated with the spread of the Thracian language group (not just Thracians in the narrower sense) and J-L283 with the Illyrians. The distribution, the timing of the branches and their dispersal, all the ancient samples found so far point in the same direction. What's even more, E-V13 has a very rapid, even explosive spread, as we know from the modern subclades and its absence in earlier periods, which also means, it needs "a vehicle" and as it seems right now, the main "vehicles" were the Proto-Thracian G?va/Belegis II-G?va cultures of the Channelled Ware complex and after that Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo. Clearly distinct from the Illyrian sphere, different distribution, and much better to align with the current evidence.
New evidence might prove it right or might led to corrective adaptations. But that its being completely refuted is, as of now, impossible. Latest the Psenichevo-Basarabi horizon was both Thracian and dominated by E-V13. Most likely already G?va/Belegis II-G?va was.

 

[Riverman]

The G25 coordinates are out. The early Sarmatian E-V13 from the Transtisza region scores in my basic Antiquity calculator:

Target: Cluster3:Sarmatian_Early_Transtisza:I20802
Distance: 2.1501% / 0.02150103
41.2 CZE_Early_Slav
27.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
16.8 DEU_MA
11.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
3.0 TUR_Ottoman

He seems to have Germanic and some kind of Slavic or Iranian-Sarmatian ancestry. In any case, he does not look like an unmixed Balkan inhabitant, but rather like a Carpathian with additional more Northern, Germanic and Slavic-like/Sarmatian ancestry.

The Carpathians locals being put into a cluster 3 by Aleje, the E-V13 carrier is right in the centre of this cluster in the North European PCA, closest to Austrians:

https://ibb.co/DknKC0N

The same pattern repeats itself in a customised European PCA, on the global we can see that cluster 3 has indeed little to non actual East Asian admixture. Again, in the general European custom PCA, the early Sarmatian individual with E-V13, I20802, is right in the centre of the cluster, he is therefore a typical representative of cluster 3, the Carpathian inhabitants of that time - no outlier, quite to the contrary.

Some of those "to the North" of him have even more significant, very clear, presumably recent Germanic admixture and are from later eras.

In comparison to moderns, he plots on the general PCA closest to Serbs, Romanians and Bulgarians:

https://ibb.co/r3NR0c2

Closest distance to him, ancients:

Distance to: Cluster3:Sarmatian_Early_Transtisza:I20802
0.02875150 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK538
0.02889167 SVK_LIA:I11710
0.03019729 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ27
0.03380323 DEU_MA_ACD_Nordic:STR_310
0.03401604 Bell_Beaker_CZE_late:I4885
0.03525893 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ18
0.03537922 GRC_Logkas_MBA:Log04
0.03553840 HRV_Pop_RomanPOP23
0.03650172 Scythian_HUNA195
0.03853031 BGR_EBA:I2165
0.03855836 DEU_MA_Alemannic_o1:NIEcap3b
0.03864547 England_LBA_highEEF:I13617
0.03905912 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL:I12031
0.03960473 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ45
0.03962957 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I6591
0.03995428 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5017
0.04009880 Bell_Beaker_CZE_late:KOP002.merged
0.04014876 ITA_Etruscan_Marsiliana:MAS001
0.04018341 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR108
0.04082932 SRB_BA_Maros:I23211
0.04102442 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK362
0.04119755 Bell_Beaker_CZE_late:I7275
0.04144267 HUN_La_Tene:I18491
0.04183549 ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR61
0.04185614 HRV_LIA_La_Tene:I26735

Moderns, highest matches with modern, Slavic admixed/Germanic admixed Carpathians:

Distance to: Cluster3:Sarmatian_Early_Transtisza:I20802
0.03012574 Moldovan:MOL-069
0.03021177 Italian_Northeast:ALP435
0.03077937 Romanian:A374
0.03085751 Romanian:A343
0.03169490 Italian_Northeast:ALP093
0.03205318 Bulgarian:BulgarianE2
0.03229033 Moldovan:MOL-024
0.03237977 Serbian:Serbian_Serbia4
0.03253435 Gagauz:GAG-183
0.03279326 Romanian:G408
0.03324344 Serbian:Serbian_Serbia2
0.03334937 Bulgarian:BulgarianF2
0.03464665 Moldovan:44618758062C02
0.03466328 Bulgarian:Bulgaria1
0.03500138 Austrian:Austria9
0.03509943 Serbian:729
0.03514252 Bulgarian:BulgarianD6
0.03517183 Moldovan:MOL-005
0.03554865 Croatian:Croatia_Cro305
0.03565894 Romanian:G429
0.03582772 Serbian:728
0.03605180 Italian_Northeast:ALP346
0.03605598 Montenegrin:Montenegro6
0.03625943 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071
0.03626945 French_Alsace:A_27

The ancient admixture run is highly interesting:

Target: Cluster3:Sarmatian_Early_Transtisza:I20802
Distance: 1.0076% / 0.01007573 | ADC: 0.5x RC
24.8 GRC_Logkas_MBA
21.4 ITA_Etruscan_Marsiliana
13.0 SVK_LIA
12.4 England_MIA_LIA_low_res
9.6 DEU_MA_ACD_Nordic
5.4 Scythian_UKR
5.0 Bell_Beaker_CZE_late
4.8 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
2.0 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA
1.6 DEU_MA_Baiuvaric

He definitely has a strong local, Carpathian basin ancestry from the LBA-IA.

Target: Cluster3:Sarmatian_Early_Transtisza:I20802
Distance: 1.3732% / 0.01373218 | ADC: 0.5x RC
34.2 Swiss_German
24.2 Romanian
16.0 Turkish_Rumeli
14.0 Gagauz
9.2 Moldovan
2.4 Albanian

The map made by ph2ter:

https://i.imgur.com/VWSMwjG.png

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...h-century-Avar&p=839779&viewfull=1#post839779

 

[Riverman]

The other two samples are later and not that important, but its still worth to take a look:

I16750 Early Avar_(poor and irregular) 625 69,31% South-East Hungary, Transtisza/Maros region H35 E1b1b1a1b1a

He basically looks like a Southern Italian or Greek, he is definitely from the South - probably the first Greek E-V13 from the record so far?

Distance to: Cluster3:Avar_Early_K?vegy:I16750
0.04524137 Italian_Apuliau45
0.04680684 Italian_Campania:NaN289RM
0.04688364 Greek_Izmir:GreeceF51k
0.04782078 Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE231
0.04812320 Italian_Apulia:cera2
0.04834610 Greek_Peloponnese:GreeceNE209
0.04838288 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo22
0.04886289 Albanian:AL29
0.04905751 Italian_BasilicataG20
0.04935849 French_Corsica:Corsica03708
0.04955598 Italian_BasilicataG25
0.04967444 Italian_Campania:NaN195ST
0.04970878 Italian_UmbriaG05
0.04986459 Greek_Izmir:GreeceF69k
0.04992265 Greek_Laconia:638
0.05022970 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo17
0.05065689 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo13
0.05123431 Italian_Abruzzo:ItalyAbruzzo20
0.05123437 Italian_Campania:CMP_b008_2
0.05125067 Italian_Abruzzo:Alp616
0.05136032 Italian_Apuliau3
0.05192892 Italian_Apulia:cera8
0.05204099 Albanian:AL98
0.05217082 Italian_BasilicataG19
0.05219211 Greek_Izmir:GreeceF28k

The E-L618 (don't know whether its just poor coverage or he is really E-L618*):

I20799 Late Avar_(poor/average) 750 77,54% Transtisza region U5a2e E1b1b1a1b1 (L618)

He is basically an Avar autosomally:

Target: Cluster5:Avar_Late_Transtisza:I20799
Distance: 1.8606% / 0.01860610 | ADC: 0.5x RC
52.2 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
25.2 Buryat
21.2 Nogai
1.4 Bashkir

 

[torzio]

It doesn't have to be 100 percent for a clear association. But its clear by now that E-V13 was largely associated with the spread of the Thracian language group (not just Thracians in the narrower sense) and J-L283 with the Illyrians. The distribution, the timing of the branches and their dispersal, all the ancient samples found so far point in the same direction. What's even more, E-V13 has a very rapid, even explosive spread, as we know from the modern subclades and its absence in earlier periods, which also means, it needs "a vehicle" and as it seems right now, the main "vehicles" were the Proto-Thracian G�va/Belegis II-G�va cultures of the Channelled Ware complex and after that Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo. Clearly distinct from the Illyrian sphere, different distribution, and much better to align with the current evidence.
New evidence might prove it right or might led to corrective adaptations. But that its being completely refuted is, as of now, impossible. Latest the Psenichevo-Basarabi horizon was both Thracian and dominated by E-V13. Most likely already G�va/Belegis II-G�va was.

As per your first sentence ................I agree fully

But it is not the main Ydna Haplogorup for these groups, ...........................they also have a different main ydna haplogroup

The Illyrians would have had a lot of Adriatic coast Italian markers , plus Central-European ones...including modern Austrian and Czech lands which would have been part celt people

 

[Riverman]

The other two samples are later and not that important, but its still worth to take a look:


He basically looks like a Southern Italian or Greek, he is definitely from the South - probably the first Greek E-V13 from the record so far?

Another option people on Anthrogenica reminded me on is that he simply was a Thracian-like individual, because he resembles the more Southern specimens from Bulgaria and Moldova too. So it remains open whether he was an actual Mediterranean inhabitant or a Thracian - which we might be better to evaluate once we finally, at some point, get the Psenichevo E-V13 samples and can look at how they score. Because they should represent the Southern fringe of the clearly more "original" Thracians/Daco-Thacians before their even more extensive mixture with more Southern, Greek and possibly even Levantine populations.

As per your first sentence ................I agree fully

But it is not the main Ydna Haplogorup for these groups, ...........................they also have a different main ydna haplogroup

The Illyrians would have had a lot of Adriatic coast Italian markers , plus Central-European ones...including modern Austrian and Czech lands which would have been part celt people

My basic theory is that E-V13 had a role like R-L51 for Bell Beakers, R-Z2103 for Yamnaya and R1a for Corded Ware. At least the role of I1 for Proto-Germanics. And the most consistent association being with Psenichevo-Basarabi up to this point, this is practically proven. But the spread must have started earlier, which is why I think that G?va/Belegis II-G?va/Channelled Ware/South Eastern Urnfield was the carrying culture, the successfully used "vehicle" to spread E-V13 in the right time (branching events, current subclades TMRCA) and place (Pannonian-Carpathian-Balkan sphere).
There is, with that chronology and geography, not much of an alternative left.

I'm just still unsure whether E-V13 was that dominant (70 % plus) in G?va already or became that dominant in Belegis II-G?va or even later in the transition to Psenichevo-Basarabi. It must have started at the time of G?va, and G?va is the ultimate source, so that would be most logical, but its not proven yet.
However, at the point of Bosut-Basarabi and Psenichevo E-V13 must have been dominant, yet in some regions already decreasing, because its after the peak and with new incursions from the East (Cimmerians, Scythians) and West (Illyrians, Celts, Romans).

Therefore if the places so far sampled have still such high numbers of E-V13 into the developed and even Roman Iron Age, they must have started even higher (= 70 % plus) in the original spreading culture (presumably G?va and/or Belegis II-G?va).