To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[Hawk]

From attested Illyrian tribes so far the ones who atleast partially used cremation were: Dardanians, Pirusti, Encheleians and Ardiaei? (not sure about this one, according to Aspurg, let him confirm himself and bring the sources).

 

[blevins13]

From attested Illyrian tribes so far the ones who atleast partially used cremation were: Dardanians, Pirusti, Encheleians and Ardiaei? (not sure about this one, according to Aspurg, let him confirm he himself and bring the sources).

Here you have the Illyrian Proper


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

 

[Riverman]

From attested Illyrian tribes so far the ones who atleast partially used cremation were: Dardanians, Pirusti, Encheleians and Ardiaei? (not sure about this one, according to Aspurg, let him confirm himself and bring the sources).

Dardanians are supposed to have been part of the heavily Channelled Ware influenced corridor:
Dardani = Brnjica (Channelled Ware related cremating group) = more E-V13
Triballi = Early Iron Age culture of the Velika Morava valley = more E-V13

So in theory they should have been closer to the Triballi and Daco-Thracians, with a higher V13 frequency than those using inhumation burials:

The Dardani (/ˈdɑːrdənaɪ/; Ancient Greek: Δαρδάνιοι, Δάρδανοι; Latin: Dardani) were a Paleo-Balkan tribe, which lived in a region which was named Dardania after their settlement there.^[1][2] The eastern parts of the region were at the Thraco-Illyrian contact zone. In archaeological research, Illyrian names are predominant in western Dardania (present-day Kosovo), and occasionally appear in eastern Dardania (present-day south-eastern Serbia), while Thracian names are found in the eastern parts, but are absent from the western parts. Thus, their identification as either an Illyrian or Thracian tribe has been a subject of debate; the ethnolinguistic relationship between the two groups being largely uncertain and debated itself as well.^[3][4] The correspondence of Illyrian names, including those of the ruling elite, in Dardania with those of the southern Illyrians suggests a "thracianization" of parts of Dardania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani

In my current best model, they would be primary spreaders of E-V13 in the region.

The cultural group formed out of this culture is the Thracian tribe of Moesi. It is also the non-Illyrian component in the Dardanian ethnogenesis.^[1]

The culture is characterized by several groups:^[1]

• Kosovo with Raska and Pester
• South and West Morava confluence zone
• Leskovac-Nis
• South Morava-Pcinja-Upper Vardar

Brnjica type pottery has been found in Blageovgrad, Plovdiv, and a number of sites in Pelagonia, Lower Vardar, the island of Thasos and Thessaly dating to 13th and 12th century BC.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brnjica_culture

 

[Riverman]

In stratum III, the S?profiled bowls are scarce,
while the share of other ceramic forms, characteristic
of the two oldest strata, is significantly diminished,
with a sudden enhancement of the share of cannelured
ceramics of Iron Age I b type of the Morava basin
The last, IV stratum, is thin and except for the 1999
trial excavation, it is found only in certain parts of the
site. A predominance of cannelured ceramics is charac-
teristic for stratum IV, with sporadic finds of Brnjica
ceramics typical for strata I and II at the Hisar site.

So Channelled Ware of the type known from the Morava basin, which was a primary centre of the Channelled Ware cultural diffusion and settlement. This could be interpreted as:

hat already in the second phase
(strata II?Brnjica I b phase) contacts were made with
the cultural complex Iron Age I a from the lower
Morava basin, manifested in the cannelured ceramics
characterizing to the greatest extent the cultural groups
of the complex; the predominance of the cannelured
ceramics in the III stratum (Brnjica II cultural group
phase) can be explained by the influx of the ethnic
element from the North (Morava basin I b phase) and
its mingling with the autochthonous population, while
the thin and poor IV stratum is the obvious reflection
of the situation in the wider region of the Morava basin
(Morava basin I c phase) and central Balkans ? the
consequence of the sudden population decrease.

On the terrace, where the first excavations were
carried out in 1999, a ferrous metallurgy center was
discovered with evidence of iron production as well as
of ferrous objects manufacture from the first two pha-
ses of the Brnjica cultural group.1

For instance, the novelties, such
as the cannelured vessels, emerging under the influen-
ce of the Velika Morava basin within the Iron Age I
period, do not appear in the graves. The appearance of
such artefacts in the necropolises meant an essential
change of the ethnic and cultural identity, which was
not the case with the Kosovo necropolises. Thus, doubt
remains whether the Brnjica community in Kosovo
lasted as long as the one in the Ju`na Morava basin or
shorter, the latter being more plausible.

There is a clear North -> South transmission of cultural elements, with the influence and actual pressure from the North, from the Morava valley Channelled Ware groups, increasing over time, until they begin to even partly replace the older elements completely.

Within the Ju`na Morava and Zapadna Morava con-
fluence zones there are eleven Brnjica ceramics sites.
Three kinds of sites are characteristic: (1) sites with
Brnjica ceramics exclusively, (2) sites characterized
by mixed Brnjica ceramics and Para}in cultural group
ceramics (Para}in I) and (3) sites in which the Brnjica
ceramics are mixed with the cannelured ceramics of
the Iron Age I type in the Morava basin.2

For Macedonia and the Vardar valley:

In strata 18?9 on Kastanas, in the lower Vardar
basin, there are numerous and diverse ceramics rather
similar to the Brnjica ceramics from the Ju`na Morava
basin sites; in strata 19?18 (ca. 1600?1400 BC)30; in
strata 17?15 (ca. 1400?1190 BC)31, in strata 14?11
(1190?1000 BC)32, strata 10?8 (ca. 1000?900 BC)33.
Some ceramic forms such as cone vessels with faceted
rim appear on Kastanas much later, as is the case with
the cannelured ceramics.

The possible role of iron processing:

All the cultural groups (Belegi{, Para}in, Brnjica)
on the one-time territory of the Vatin complex had iron
objects at their disposal.45 Namely, there are undoubted
proofs that the Belegi{ and Para}in cultural groups used
iron objects, while it is known for the Brnjica com-
munity that it produced iron in its earliest development
phase (in the 14th century BC) and made objects from
this metal.46 Iron ? ?the royal metal? or Homer?s ?metal
dearer than gold?, as with the Hittites, was produced
within the Brnjica community under the auspices of
the largest and strongest fortification ? on the Hisar hill
in Leskovac, in the very core of the Brnjica territory.
There is no proof that the Mycenaean world produced
iron, but it used it.4

Population movements into Greece, caused by a domino effect with the Channelled Ware groups being the main cause:

Relatively numerous sites in which ceramics of
Brnjica type were found in the Vardar basin as well as
in the north of Greece up to Thessaly, point to popu-
lation movements from the central Balkans towards
the Mycenaean territory at the time when the Brnjica
community flourished, reached its peak and, like others,
developed ferrous metallurgy, but neglected the pro-
tection of the northern regions of its territory. Under
such conditions, the cultural group from the Iron Age I b
phase in the Morava basin found ways to leave the
Velika Morava valley and reach the Ju`na Morava basin
up to the Grdelica Gorge, undoubtedly causing move-
ments further to the south in response. The powerful
advance of cultural groups from the north (from the
Serbian Danube valley and the Velika Morava basin) is
proved not only by the cannelured ceramics of the Iron
Age I type, but also by bronze artefacts (decoration need-
les, axes-kelts, razors, bracelets) from the Hisar site in
Leskovac. From that moment on, the archaeological
material of the Ju`na Morava basin north of Grdelica
Gorge is characterized by a mixture of the material
culture of the Iron Age I community in the Morava
basin with traditional forms of the Brnjica population
in proportionally 10: 1 during the Brnjica I b phase, up
to 5 : 1 during the Brnjica II a phase, and 1: 4 in the last
phase of this cultural group.4

rom the above, the conclusion can be reached that
the impressively numerous Brnjica community from
the 13th century BC, populating an enormous territory
from the Pe{ter and Ra{ka regions in the west up to
Struma in the east and from the Ju`na and Zapadna
Morava confluence zone in the north down to the Taor
Gorge in the south, took part in the events designated
as the Aegean Migration, which, inter alia, caused the
destruction of the Mycenaean civilization and the great
upheavals in the Eastern Mediterranean in the 13th and
the beginning of the 12th centuries BC. This community
knew the ferrous metallurgy, it developed craftsman-
ship based on iron, and had contacts with the Mycenaean
civilization. One must wonder whether this very popu-
lation initiated events which fatally reflected them-
selves on Mycenaean civilization, shifting communities
from the north of Greece towards the south or did this
population only use the opportunity to expand into the
territory of the communities which had earlier moved
towards Attica and Peloponnesus.

At the end the author becomes somewhat speculative:

The question arises whether one of the two booms
in ferrous metallurgy, the initial one in the 14th and 13th
centuries BC or the one at the beginning of the last mil-
lennium BC, could perhaps be connected to the Dorian
migration and their iron weapons. It is generally accep-
ted that the Dorians came from the north and northwest
in the 11th century BC, conquered Peloponnesus and
destroyed the remains of the Mycenaean civilization.

The ?north? and the ?northwest? could be identified
with the very territory in Greece for which evidence
exists of a connection with the Brnjica tradition.

This seems to be reasonable:

The most recent results of archaeological research
confirm the opinion given by M. Gara{anin on ?Dako-
?Moesian elements? in the ethnicity of the Brnjica
cultural group, but exclude any Illyrian component.

http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-0241/2006/0350-02410656073S.pdf

Overall a very interesting article with many interesting archaeological details and observations.

 

[Johane Derite]

"We have already in the 7th century BCE an Etruscan vase with a depiction of Aeneas on it, so that's very early, and in the tales of Homer, Aeneas is only a minor figure, so I think that just a wish to belong to the Homer epics is not a good explanation of this situation." -Alwin Kloekhorst

Aeneas was not a descendant of King Priam or relative of Hector, he was the commander of the Dardanoi, a separate people in the Iliad. In the 7th century BC, for Aeneas depictions to be found among Etruscans means the myth of Aeneas' travels to italy was not an invention of Virgil.

Also, in 7th century BC this is only 500 years removed from the Trojan war, so this would be like in 20th century the distance in time from Battle of Kosovo, which was still being sung about by Albanians, Serbs, etc. Even slightly later in the classical period, it was not that far removed in time.

Remember, the myths state that Dardanoi moved to Italy and found Etruscans and Latins already there, this is not an argument that Etruscans come from Troy.

Multiple times in myths there appears the mention that Dardanus was knowledgeable in the "mysteries", that he brought them to Samothrace, or that he brought the temple of the "Mother of the Gods" to Asia minor. I wonder if the bell dress figurines of Žuto Brdo-Gârla Mare complex can have any relation to this

 

[Hawk]

Hector was also called Dardanian by Homer.

 

[Johane Derite]

Hector was also called Dardanian by Homer.

Hector is not referred to as a Dardanoi. But that Trojan and Dardanoi were two different things are more than clear enough in the Iliad given that they are listed separately and have different leaders.

Hector is commander of the Trojans, Antenor and Aeneas are commanders of the Dardanoi.

To demonstrate this clearly, at one point Hector calls out to the army "Trojans, Lycians, and Dardanians (Dardanoi)". Dardanoi are as separate from Trojan as Lycians are.

 

[Hawk]

Hector is not referred to as a Dardanoi. But that Trojan and Dardanoi were two different things are more than clear enough in the Iliad given that they are listed separately and have different leaders.

Hector is commander of the Trojans, Antenor and Aeneas are commanders of the Dardanoi.

To demonstrate this clearly, at one point Hector calls out to the army "Trojans, Lycians, and Dardanians (Dardanoi)". Dardanoi are as separate from Trojan as Lycians are.

Then it's a bit confusing, since in Iliad i thought i have read Homer referencing to Hector and Priam as Dardan.

[FONT=&quot]Then he: "O prince! allied in blood and fame,[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Dearer than all that own a brother's name;
Of all that Hecuba to Priam bore,
Long tried, long loved: much loved, but honoured more!
Since you, of all our numerous race alone
Defend my life, regardless of your own."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Again the goddess: "Much my father's prayer,
And much my mother's, press'd me to forbear:
My friends embraced my knees, adjured my stay,
But stronger love impell'd, and I obey.
Come then, the glorious conflict let us try,
Let the steel sparkle, and the javelin fly;
Or let us stretch Achilles on the field,
Or to his arm our bloody trophies yield."[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Fraudful she said; then swiftly march'd before:
The Dardan hero shuns his foe no more.
Sternly they met. The silence Hector broke:
His dreadful plumage nodded as he spoke:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Enough, O son of Peleus! Troy has view'd
Her walls thrice circled, and her chief pursued.
But now some god within me bids me try
Thine, or my fate: I kill thee, or I die.
Yet on the verge of battle let us stay,
And for a moment's space suspend the day;
Let Heaven's high powers be call'd to arbitrate
The just conditions of this stern debate,
(Eternal witnesses of all below,
And faithful guardians of the treasured vow!)
To them I swear; if, victor in the strife,
Jove by these hands shall shed thy noble life,
No vile dishonour shall thy corse pursue;
Stripp'd of its arms alone (the conqueror's due)
The rest to Greece uninjured I'll restore:
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now plight thy mutual oath, I ask no more."

[/FONT]https://etc.usf.edu/lit2go/117/the-iliad/2029/book-22-the-death-of-hector/[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]"No, wretch accursed! relentless he replies;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Flames, as he spoke, shot flashing from his eyes[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Not those who gave me breath should bid me spare,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nor all the sacred prevalence of prayer.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Could I myself the bloody banquet join![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No—to the dogs that carcase I resign.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Should Troy, to bribe me, bring forth all her store,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And giving thousands, offer thousands more;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Should Dardan Priam, and his weeping dame,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Drain their whole realm to buy one funeral flame:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Their Hector on the pile they should not see,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Nor rob the vultures of one limb of thee."[/FONT]

 

[Archetype0ne]

Then it's a bit confusing, since in Iliad i thought i have read Homer referencing to Hector and Priam as Dardan.

Yep and they were cousins IIRC. Furthermore IIRC Priam and Aeneas had some familiar connection?

 

[Archetype0ne]

Something related to this thread you guys might find interesting?

---

Here is the interesting part.

After seeing the above results, I asked ph2ter from Anthrogenica to do his magic. Since some of those Scythian samples do not look Scythian at all.

And my suspicions were confirmed.

This sample is z2103.
[FONT=&quot]scy305* Glinoe Scythian 399 - 209 BCE XY U5a2b R1b1a1a2[/FONT]

In the same study, one of the Scythians was E-V13, albeit the authors had wrongfully declared him R1b-z2103 and likely overestimated its age.

This one according to Trojet, was actually V13 after analyzing the BAM file
[FONT=&quot]scy197* Glinoe Scythian 2885 - 2632 BCE XY U5a1a1 R1b1a1a2
[/FONT]And also he mentioned that the dating was contested, and there was suspicion it was in reality a sample from around 300bc.

The samples are from here: https://www.e-anthropology.com/English/glinoe_summary/default.aspx
This is the study: https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/4/10/eaat4457

---

I will provide the rest of the maps ph2ter did for that request:

---

Now if I recall the discussions regarding the Bulgarian samples. IIRC the authors or was it some people with inside knowledge were speculating that the Troyans might have had genetic contribution from Thrace. This was either in the youtube interview with one of the authors or in the following discussions among some insiders on Eurogenes.

 

[Hawk]

Szolad_SZ43 is my top match.

Distance to:	Hawk_scaled
0.03299762	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43
0.03438320	IND_Roopkund_B:I6936
0.03482785	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ36
0.03608238	GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log02
0.03749184	DEU_MA_Alemanic_Byzantine:NIEcap3b
0.03756047	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ37
0.03832633	ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR55
0.03939553	IND_Roopkund_B:I3404
0.03943402	Scythian_MDA:scy192
0.03964654	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
0.04018759	ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
0.04031992	Scythian_MDA:scy197
0.04085139	DEU_MA_ACD:NW_54
0.04117742	ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b
0.04135765	ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR970
0.04139234	Migration_POHOH27
0.04174284	HRV_MBA:I4331
0.04180661	SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK17A
0.04206426	HUN_BA:I7043
0.04220230	DEU_MA_Alemanic_Byzantine:NIEcap3c
0.04226506	VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK538
0.04232969	HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ28
0.04239937	ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1287
0.04250456	GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log04
0.04252108	ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1

 

[Archetype0ne]

The point is that around 300 BC we see people with autosomal and ydna profiles that match modern Albanians around the area you keep mentioning all these cultures. They have autosomal match with "modern" Albanians, and their Y-DNA is V13, and Z2103.

Furthermore, in Mokrin, Z2103 is found together with L283...

From user “Genos Historia” over at Eurogenes, fwiw:


"Mokrin Serbia EBA is mix between Western Yamnaya and Tollense Valley-related pops.

@0.013
Croat BA: 41%
Vucedol: 16%
Welzin_BA: 43%

Gets fit down to 0.004 with ancient pops included. Hungary EF, Yamnaya, Hungary BA/Welzin.

Y DNA I2a came from "Tollense Valley-related"
Y DNA R1b Z2103, J2b2a came from Western Yamnaya.

Not saying J2b2a is of Steppe origin. But it did exist in Bronze age descendants of Western Yamnaya."

Now you can also see the SZ samples, which are just North West of Mokrin, have autosomal profiles similar to Modern Italians, Albanians and Greeks. Mokrin futhermore pops in my shorter distance populations along with these SZ samples, as is the case for most Albanians.

Next time I will ask ph2ter to run the Mokrin and Croatia MBA L283s to see if there is any relation.

Edit: Chances are if these samples did not get buried in a Scythian context, we would most likely lack their DNA, as they might as well have been cremated.

 

[Johane Derite]

Then it's a bit confusing, since in Iliad i thought i have read Homer referencing to Hector and Priam as Dardan.

It is really confusing. Priam is sometimes called Dardanides (son of dardanus) but never Dardanoi, or Dardanion, or Dardanos man, etc, which is the specific tribe/house that Antenor, Aeneas, Acamas, etc, belong to.

Here below are all references to Dardan- in the Greek, from book 22 there are only 3 references, once for Priam as Dardanides, and twice for the Dardanian gates as Dardanion. So that "Dardan hero" from your link I am assuming is a bad translation, of somebody that didn't see it as being significant and just considered it interchangable with Trojan, as majority do.

It is strange why Priam is sometimes referred to as a son of Dardanus (Dardanides), but never stated as part of the Dardanoi. Hector leads the trojans, and the Dardanoi at one point in the Iliad are placed in the back, and Aeneas remarks angrily that he is not a descendant of Laomedon like Priam.


This is Grace Macurdy's hypothesis about why Priam is sometimes called Dardanides (son of Dardanus):

 

[Hawk]

Target: Hawk_scaled Distance: 2.8012% / 0.02801223
58.8	Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
37.4	Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.8	Baltics_Narva_Hunter-Gatherer_Baltic_LTU_Narva
1.0	Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
1.0	Levant_Neolithic_Farmer_Levant_PPNB

Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK10B Distance: 3.0615% / 0.03061462
54.4	Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
33.0	Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.0	Baltics_Narva_Hunter-Gatherer_Baltic_LTU_Narva
0.6	Morocco_Early_Neolithic_Farmer_MAR_EN

Target: HRV_MBA:I4331 Distance: 2.6089% / 0.02608916
60.8	Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
32.6	Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.6	Baltics_Narva_Hunter-Gatherer_Baltic_LTU_Narva

Target: BGR_IA:I5769 Distance: 2.5000% / 0.02499952
72.4	Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
24.0	Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.0	Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.6	Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG

Target: GRC_Helladic_MBA:Log02 Distance: 2.9767% / 0.02976694
63.2	Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
32.6	Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.8	Baltics_Narva_Hunter-Gatherer_Baltic_LTU_Narva
1.4	Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
1.0	Morocco_Early_Neolithic_Farmer_MAR_EN

Target: HRV_IA:I3313 Distance: 3.8279% / 0.03827883
61.4	Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
33.6	Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.0	Baltics_Narva_Hunter-Gatherer_Baltic_LTU_Narva

Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK17A Distance: 2.7899% / 0.02789892
59.4	Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
24.0	Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.0	Baltics_Narva_Hunter-Gatherer_Baltic_LTU_Narva
4.4	Caucasus_Hunter-Gatherer_GEO_CHG
1.6	Indus__Valley_Civilization_IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.6	South_Africa_Hunter-Gatherer_ZAF_2100BP

Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK19A Distance: 2.8824% / 0.02882431
46.4	Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
30.2	Baltics_Narva_Hunter-Gatherer_Baltic_LTU_Narva
23.2	Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.2	Iran_Neolithic_Farmer_IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: SRB_Mokrin_EBA:MOK20 Distance: 2.9840% / 0.02984018
55.2	Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
31.8	Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
13.0	Baltics_Narva_Hunter-Gatherer_Baltic_LTU_Narva

Target: HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ43 Distance: 1.8985% / 0.01898514
59.6	Anatolia_Neolithic_Farmer_TUR_Barcin_N
35.4	Pontic_Steppe_Yamnaya_Pastoralist_Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.0	West_Europe_Hunter-Gatherer_WHG
1.8	Levant_Natufian_Hunter-Gatherer_Levant_Natufian
1.0	Morocco_Early_Neolithic_Farmer_MAR_EN
0.2	Australian_Aborigine_AUS_Willandra_Lakes_4000BP

 

[Hawk]

Since we have discussed over and over again and a lot of people hinting that E-V13 spread point was in and around Northern Balkans/Danube Valley/Southern Carpathians i wonder if E-V13 actually descends from Vinca-Turdas Culture. From the northern shores of this culture.

It was the Vinca People that were pioneers in metal-working. Maybe the surviving E-V13 retreated in Carpathian Mountains after IE invasion?

I was actually hypothesizing like a single E-V13 forefather, survivor who mingled into IE groups and eventually growing in number but it looks it can be also associated with elevated Neolithic autosomal in case of Iron Age Thrace with the sudden reveal of E-V13. So, a surviving group makes more sense i guess.

 

[Riverman]

Since we have discussed over and over again and a lot of people hinting that E-V13 spread point was in and around Northern Balkans/Danube Valley/Southern Carpathians i wonder if E-V13 actually descends from Vinca-Turdas Culture. From the northern shores of this culture.

It was the Vinca People that were pioneers in metal-working. Maybe the surviving E-V13 retreated in Carpathian Mountains after IE invasion?

I was actually hypothesizing like a single E-V13 forefather, survivor who mingled into IE groups and eventually growing in number but it looks it can be also associated with elevated Neolithic autosomal in case of Iron Age Thrace with the sudden reveal of E-V13. So, a surviving group makes more sense i guess.

My best guess is still the Carpathian zone and coming down with Channelled Ware, and what I recently read and wrote, you probably saw it on Anthrogenica about it, the culture was quite hierarchical and expansive, with a strong emphasis of metallurgy. Considering its character, some tribe rising to the top and controlling the routes could have, especially with the ideological-religious role they had in the Urnfield networks too, easily expand very rapidly from the most modest starting point.
This makes the search for the predecessor culture for the haplogroup the more difficult, but from what I read it also looks like it was local, somewhere in Eastern Slovakia-North Western Romania, though some say otherwise again. And there was also a debate about a possible Southern influence and connection during its formation. We need the Pannonian aDNA results first I'd say. Would be great to know if the 1-2 E1b1b were E-V13. If the Nitra-Western Slovakia sample was indeed E-V13, that would be very supportive for the Northern origin hypothesis. Because there was none in all the rest of Pannonia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece etc. at this point. It would be a fairly old sample too. But we need to know what it actually was, because it could have been a different clade of E1b1b.

 

[Hawk]

My best guess is still the Carpathian zone and coming down with Channelled Ware, and what I recently read and wrote, you probably saw it on Anthrogenica about it, the culture was quite hierarchical and expansive, with a strong emphasis of metallurgy. Considering its character, some tribe rising to the top and controlling the routes could have, especially with the ideological-religious role they had in the Urnfield networks too, easily expand very rapidly from the most modest starting point.
This makes the search for the predecessor culture for the haplogroup the more difficult, but from what I read it also looks like it was local, somewhere in Eastern Slovakia-North Western Romania, though some say otherwise again. And there was also a debate about a possible Southern influence and connection during its formation. We need the Pannonian aDNA results first I'd say. Would be great to know if the 1-2 E1b1b were E-V13. If the Nitra-Western Slovakia sample was indeed E-V13, that would be very supportive for the Northern origin hypothesis. Because there was none in all the rest of Pannonia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece etc. at this point. It would be a fairly old sample too. But we need to know what it actually was, because it could have been a different clade of E1b1b.

From Etruscan samples we have 1 E-L618 with probability ~85% and down-stream he is probably E-V13 and weird enough some exotic E clades like E-M2 but with low probability, and these clades are more numerous than E-V13. I wonder if it's due to low-quality samples.

 

[Riverman]

From Etruscan samples we have 1 E-L618 with probability ~85% and down-stream he is probably E-V13 and weird enough some exotic E clades like E-M2 but with low probability, and these clades are more numerous than E-V13. I wonder if it's due to low-quality samples.

Remember the French Neolithic. They might be either slaves, migrants from North Africa, or survivors from some earlier Neolithic group. There were rather exotic E's in the French Neolithic and the Michelsberger too might have been from another branch. Like I said, I think various clades of E were very widespread in Europe, its just that most of it was E1b1b and E-V13 got the lucky strike doing the steppe assimilation and the big LBA-EIA expansion - most likely with Channelled Ware/South Eastern Urnfield. We see it from other results as well, that various E clades were and are still lurking around in Europe at a lower frequency. Just like G2 had some lucky lineages when most got lost.
If anything, we need to know more about the context, because it would be a curious thing if Etruscans came indeed with a Baden-related group from Pannonia or the like, because these had more Neolithic survival. This could also have been a path for E-V13, Baden and Boler?z, but I think they rather missed the necessary entry point and should have been covered by the Pannonian study.

Edit: Seems to be just bad coverage. But need to keep an eye on sample VEN008 and its archaeological candidate, because it might be a V13 candidate indeed.

 

[torzio]

It is really confusing. Priam is sometimes called Dardanides (son of dardanus) but never Dardanoi, or Dardanion, or Dardanos man, etc, which is the specific tribe/house that Antenor, Aeneas, Acamas, etc, belong to.

Here below are all references to Dardan- in the Greek, from book 22 there are only 3 references, once for Priam as Dardanides, and twice for the Dardanian gates as Dardanion. So that "Dardan hero" from your link I am assuming is a bad translation, of somebody that didn't see it as being significant and just considered it interchangable with Trojan, as majority do.

It is strange why Priam is sometimes referred to as a son of Dardanus (Dardanides), but never stated as part of the Dardanoi. Hector leads the trojans, and the Dardanoi at one point in the Iliad are placed in the back, and Aeneas remarks angrily that he is not a descendant of Laomedon like Priam.


This is Grace Macurdy's hypothesis about why Priam is sometimes called Dardanides (son of Dardanus):

Paeonians nor Dardanians are illyrians

 

[Hawk]

I assume the name Dardanian was taken from the Brnjica/Mediana/Channeled-Ware and other related Danubian-Urnfield groups, since these groups had contact with Anatolia, the Glasinac-Mat had 0% contact with Anatolia during Middle Bronze Age to Early Iron Age.

But then again, we don't have sufficient knowledge on these cultures and influences. And i think they were separate ethnos from both Illyrians and Thracians who were influencing them on both West and East.