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Thread: To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

  1. #976
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I would put J2b2-L283 in combination with Dardani/Belacevac(along E-V13 + R1b-Z2103) and E-V13 more south in Slavonia, i would say moreso J2b2+E-V13 rather than J2B2-L283 + R1b-Z2103 in that particular area.

    I also must say i made sort of a mistake using the G25 coordinates single, but i usually prefer to use them since averaged can be missleading and i want to check the variations inside a group, it tells much more, but sort of i am certain if a Chalcolithic group from South Pannonia gets sampled it will be a better fit for Kapitan Andreevo than Bulgarian Chalcolithic. What is your opinion Paleo, how do you see all this fitting, could it be that E-V13 was all along in Neolithic Bulgaria or somewhere else?
    I don't have any opinion on E-V13 other than they must not have been on the Danube part of Serbia during most of BA, otherwise there would be spillage early on into neighboring people(Illyrians included). BGR Calcolithic only a singe sample is good, the rest are part Yamnaya(4-9%).

    The ancestors of south Thracians plotted like Cinamak before being shifted to where they form a their south Thracian cluster. However other E-V13, Mysians, Triballi, and eastern Dardani are heavily admixtured with the Serbian BA R-Z2103 profile, that admixture pulled them toward MKD BA, recall how Cimmerian MJ12 plots for example.

    We have a PCA from the Danubian paper pre-print, we can back into how the Balkan IA E-V13 profiles plot.




    In general there is a cline, like the modern Balkan one. The samples that defy this cline are the 3 J2b-L283s north of the cluster and some G2s south of the cluster. The single R-Z2103 also extends out toward IA Estonia and might have some steppe mixture. The rest which are mostly E-V13 (not all, some are females) form the south Thracian cluster and North-western Thracian cluster, with some even in between.


    BTW here is a blank version of the map, people should make their own proposals for fun.

  2. #977
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    Interesting samples to come from one of Riverman's links:

    Rohrlach, Adam Ben
    Local genetic continuity in Transylvania from the Copper Age until the Late Bronze Age

    Ravasini, Francesco
    Archaeogenetics of the Picenes and the legacy of the Roman expansion in Central Italy

    Molak, Martyna
    Reconstructing the past of the Oder and Vistula basins population with ancient genomes
    (this is the speculated original homeland of I2a Slavic clades)

    Metspalu, Mait
    Genesis of genetic landscape in Northeast Europe

    Jia, Xiaowen
    Archaeogenomic pilot research of Kamenice, a prehistoric Albanian tumulus (1600 BCE-500 BCE) (same culture complex as Barc, this is Korca plain, by the wording this is just sub-sample of the overall bigger 100 sample that includes all of Albania)

    Iraeta-Orbegozo, Miren
    Isotopic and genetic analysis of the individuals buried in the Early Iron Age mass grave from Gomolava, Serbia (Hopefully not part of Carles Fox paper)

    Freilich, Suzanne
    Archaeogenetic insights into the Late Iron Age cemetery of Göttlesbrunn, Lower Austria

    https://www.embl.org/about/info/course-and-conference-office/wp-content/uploads/EES22-09_Poster-listing.pdf

  3. #978
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    Iraeta-Orbegozo, Miren
    Isotopic and genetic analysis of the individuals buried in the Early Iron Age mass grave from Gomolava, Serbia (Hopefully not part of Carles Fox paper)
    If Bruzmi is right, its part of the Fox paper, but adds additional samples. Question is how many samples they have taken from the 77-78 individuals in this mass grave. Hopefully many...

    There are other upcoming papers of interest, dealing with Hallstatt Southern Germany, which might prove whether E-V13 was there or not. Will depend on sample size also, in my opinion.

  4. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    If Bruzmi is right, its part of the Fox paper, but adds additional samples. Question is how many samples they have taken from the 77-78 individuals in this mass grave. Hopefully many...

    There are other upcoming papers of interest, dealing with Hallstatt Southern Germany, which might prove whether E-V13 was there or not. Will depend on sample size also, in my opinion.

    So these are the Iron Age individuals? 25 samples from Iron Age, the rest are women.

  5. #980
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoRevenge View Post
    So these are the Iron Age individuals? 25 samples from Iron Age, the rest are women.
    I have no idea what Fox included in the graphic or what will still be added in the final version.

  6. #981
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    I have checked the Himeran E-V13 again and the Naissus, used this model (objective criticism accepted, done it on the fly anyway).

    Code:
    HRV_Cardial_N,0.1233083,0.185165,0.0110623,-0.1009917,0.058575,-0.0501073,-0.0092437,-0.0053843,0.0513353,0.0925153,0.009202,0.016685,-0.026214,0.001055,-0.0417113,-0.017281,0.0122127,0.0006757,0.0111033,-0.0136317,-0.012478,0.005894,-0.0049713,-0.0110053,-0.008143
    HUN_Vinca_MN,0.1206525,0.176956,0.0088625,-0.0864832,0.0591648,-0.0423913,-0.0031137,-0.0031152,0.0441258,0.0825985,0.0079978,0.0136005,-0.020701,-0.002374,-0.038748,-0.0093142,0.0228498,0.002059,0.0115328,-0.0089108,-0.0097642,0.0069245,-0.004098,-0.0024702,-0.0108075
    Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia,0.115189,0.092007,0.0465368,0.1129864,-0.0276358,0.0420566,0.004371,-0.003646,-0.0539944,-0.0743522,-0.000942,0.0004496,-0.001011,-0.023616,0.0278496,0.0116148,0.0012254,-0.002559,0.0007542,0.0102548,-0.0042426,0.0005688,0.016244,0.0230152,-0.0035446
    Yamnaya:Yamnaya_RUS_Samara,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0.1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.34e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
    BGR_C:I0781,0.12862,0.174671,0.00792,-0.090763,0.043393,-0.036535,-0.000705,0.003923,0.035996,0.071072,0.001624,0.013188,-0.022894,-0.003028,-0.036102,-0.011138,0.01343,0.0019,0.01169,-0.02001,-0.008735,0.000618,0.010723,-0.000361,-0.00946
    GRC_N,0.118376,0.18178,-0.001131,-0.105622,0.057241,-0.051037,-0.00423,-0.003923,0.039064,0.090207,0.003735,0.013638,-0.019177,-0.007569,-0.046959,-0.004243,0.040028,0.003927,0.004022,-0.013506,-0.012228,0.014096,0.00037,0.001325,-0.004311
    SRB_N,0.1277662,0.1822878,0.010748,-0.0957695,0.0574722,-0.0440648,-0.00094,-0.005769,0.039013,0.0868812,0.0036942,0.0131508,-0.022262,0.0014108,-0.0391552,-0.01369,0.0202748,0.000697,0.0124128,-0.0138505,-0.007331,0.0062138,-0.0083192,0.0020182,5.98e-05
    ALB_NC,0.124067,0.1848265,0.0041485,-0.101745,0.045239,-0.047272,-0.0034075,-0.003,0.037837,0.0807305,0.00885,0.0114645,-0.0235625,0.000826,-0.0399695,-0.017303,0.007823,0.00057,0.0088615,-0.0184465,-0.0104815,0.0059355,-0.0032045,-0.0006625,-0.0079035
    HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECHA,0.133173,0.171624,0.026021,-0.070414,0.071398,-0.04267,-0.00329,-0.005769,0.048063,0.078179,0.005846,0.012739,-0.016799,0.004266,-0.030401,-0.007955,0.029206,-0.00114,0.011816,0.001751,-0.004866,0.002102,-0.010106,-0.016508,-0.000958
    ITA_Sicily_MN,0.1249208,0.1787332,0.0241357,-0.0679915,0.0657812,-0.039254,-0.0029963,-0.0009233,0.046887,0.085013,0.001015,0.0106405,-0.0215188,-0.0009978,-0.0309782,-0.0066292,0.0178625,0.0034208,0.007542,-0.008723,-0.004024,0.007543,-0.006994,-0.0182255,-0.0013473
    Corded_Ware_CZE_early,0.1236712,0.1089708,0.0565189,0.090707,0.0042817,0.032703,0.004649,5.02e-05,-0.0277886,-0.0412092,-0.0021745,-0.0020003,-0.0044727,-0.0162215,0.0281649,0.0083935,-0.0077778,0.001669,-0.0003442,0.0063291,9.24e-05,0.0037364,0.0044905,0.0135587,-0.003936
    MKD_N,0.122929,0.182795,-0.000754,-0.103037,0.063704,-0.046296,-0.00376,-0.001385,0.046222,0.090571,0.01153,0.014837,-0.031516,0.003303,-0.042073,-0.011535,0.024251,0.005448,0.013701,-0.012006,-0.016346,0.011623,0.001109,0.00494,-0.007664
    GRC_Peloponnese_N,0.1192866,0.176702,-0.0080704,-0.0965124,0.0409306,-0.0416662,-0.001645,-0.0051228,0.0253202,0.0726758,0.0066578,0.012499,-0.0241424,-0.0007708,-0.0353146,-0.0086448,0.0185666,0.000532,0.0104078,-0.0138568,-0.018193,0.0007172,-0.004289,-0.000699,-0.004766
    ITA_Sardinia_ECA,0.117238,0.171624,0.039598,-0.05491,0.084323,-0.029005,-0.00987,-0.001846,0.06647,0.09695,0.000974,0.016935,-0.033746,-0.018992,-0.014115,-0.002121,0.009909,-0.002154,0.004902,-0.008504,-0.00574,0.005935,-0.016022,-0.029281,0.007185
    Bell_Beaker_Bavaria,0.1271445,0.1324326,0.052713,0.0416909,0.0331913,0.0126844,0.0009922,0.0016324,0.0044465,0.0071138,-0.0007698,0.0066884,-0.0102576,-0.0124217,0.0121041,0.0082649,0.0028733,0.0016705,0.002514,0.0048264,0.0046076,0.002125,-0.001164,0.0008301,-0.001539
    TUR_Marmara_Barcin_C,0.112685,0.150298,-0.038466,-0.061693,-0.010156,-0.017012,0.00658,-0.003692,-0.021475,0.021504,0.009906,0.008393,-0.012487,-0.004129,-0.016015,-0.008884,0.01356,-0.003547,-0.000377,-0.015758,0.000873,0.01014,-0.005176,-0.005543,-0.007424
    Levant_PPNB,0.0720882,0.1645157,-0.0301695,-0.1367377,0.0302108,-0.063587,-0.0115545,-0.0098072,0.0782303,0.0370243,0.0169697,-0.0176592,0.0313178,0.0002982,-0.0227333,0.0035578,0.012886,-0.0006333,-0.0074582,0.0163827,-0.0028908,0.0062858,0.0012735,-0.007049,-0.0019558
    Code:
    ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10950,0.129758,0.142174,0.028661,-0.007429,0.039084,-0.008088,0.005875,0.005077,0.005318,0.031345,0.000487,0.009142,-0.00996,0.004679,-0.019679,-0.004508,0.01682,-0.00076,0.011061,0.002376,-0.008735,0.006554,-0.001109,-0.003253,-0.000958
    ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10946,0.125205,0.147252,0.02753,-0.000646,0.03693,-0.006414,-0.005405,-0.010153,0.006749,0.03262,0.009419,0.008093,-0.015015,0.006193,-0.015336,-0.016309,-0.005215,-0.002027,0.011564,-0.007879,-0.008485,0.013231,0.00037,-0.002169,0.009101
    SRB_Naissus:R6764,0.120652,0.161469,0.017725,-0.031008,0.040315,-0.018128,0.000705,-0.000923,0.005727,0.037358,0.007307,0.013638,-0.016799,0.003303,-0.019001,0.006364,0.029597,-0.00038,0.010936,-0.004627,-0.007237,-0.002968,-0.006779,-0.004217,-0.010538



    Target: SRB_Naissus:R6764
    Distance: 2.5104% / 0.02510443
    42.8 HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECHA
    22.0 Yamnaya
    18.6 GRC_Peloponnese_N
    7.8 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_C
    6.4 GRC_N
    2.4 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria


    Target: ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10946
    Distance: 3.3010% / 0.03301038
    48.0 Corded_Ware_CZE_early
    45.6 HRV_Cardial_N
    6.4 SRB_N



    Target: ITA_Sicily_Himera_480BCE_2:I10950
    Distance: 2.2728% / 0.02272776
    50.0 HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECHA
    21.0 Yamnaya
    15.0 Corded_Ware_CZE_early
    8.2 MKD_N
    4.0 TUR_Marmara_Barcin_C
    1.8 SRB_N


    The Naissus E-V13 sample is Post-Roman i think, so he might have gotten some early Roman-Byzantine Greek autosomal.

    Although i admit these tools are not coincise the model gives me an approximate clue as to what they were, and the LBA spread from Balkan-Carpathian sphere makes the most sense considering that they are diverse autosomally.
    Last edited by Hawk; 27-01-23 at 16:37.

  7. #982
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    Country: Albania



    3 members found this post helpful.
    Looks like potential E-V13 in Pre-Slavic Slovenia per new study.


    Bled area, Slovenia.

    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=4331032

    Bled area during Iron Age was a Hallstatt site. The picture gets more and more in favor of Urnfield origin for E-V13.

  8. #983
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Looks like potential E-V13 in Pre-Slavic Slovenia per new study.


    Bled area, Slovenia.

    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=4331032

    Bled area during Iron Age was a Hallstatt site. The picture gets more and more in favor of Urnfield origin for E-V13.
    Funny, I just posted this concerning the potential Late Hallstatt-Vekerzug into La Tene era E-V13 expansions into Northern Italy:
    Case Report: The British & Sardinian connection

    With better sampling we can better reconstruct the migration and expansion of E-V13 lineages. The best NGS sampled areas up to now are the British Isles, Sardinia (because of one major study done on the island population) and Albanians in moderns and Early Medieval Hungary.

    Looking at the data on FTDNA and YFull, there is a non random relationship between Hungarian samples from the early Avar and early Hungarian period, with Western people and a particularly close one of Sardinians and British E-V13 carriers, to the, largely, exclusion of the Southern Central Balkans in a specific time window.

    Like we can reconstruct with time windows: When did these E-V13 carriers migrate out of Hungary, when did they reach Sardinia and when, sometimes even how, did they reach the British Isles.

    There are many examples of this peculiar pattern of British lineages sharing their most recent ancestor with Sardinian ones, nearly always to the exclusion of the Balkans, sometimes, but not always, with the inclusion of other Italians, Germans and French.
    It is also noteworthy that the Sardinians are likely not the primary source on the Westward route, but these were North Western Italian people, mostly from the area of Liguria, Genua, from where the majority of these Sardinian lineage is supposed to come from, but from which we have simply not as many samples.

    Here some of the definining branches in question (TMRCA is always just the average, range must be considered):

    E-BY6162 (TMRCA of 476 BC between the Hungarian-Avar and Italian)
    E-FTB70721 (TMRCA of 60 AD between British and Sardinian)
    E-Z21367 (TMRCA of 500 BC between British/Irish/German and Hungarian-Avar and Sardinian, Sardinian diversify 200 AD)
    E-Z21291 (TMRCA of 624 BC between French, British and Sardinian, with Sardinian diversification 200 BC)
    E-BY4991 (TMRCA of 143 AD between German, Hungarian Arpad and British)
    E-FT92232 (TMRCA of 417 BC between British and Italian)
    E-BY159978 (TMRCA of 398 BC between British and Italian)
    E-BY6263 (TMRCA of 317 BC between British and Swiss)
    E-FTA40200 (TMRCA of 456 BC between British and modern Hungarian)
    E-BY4404 sticks out as one of the few Eastern Balkan connections with (TMRCA of 153 BC between British and Bulgarian, Turkish, not sure if its an ethnic English lineage)
    E-FT106938 (TMRCA of 760 BC between Irish and modern Hungarian)

    E-Z16988 is particularly interesting, because it combines in different of its subclades ancient Hungarian, Sardinian-Italian, German, Serbian and British lineages:
    E-Z21350 (TMRCA of 576/552 BC between German and English, which start to diversify 826 AD, and Irish, Polish and Sardinian, with Sardinian starting to branch 50 AD)
    E-A11837 (TMRCA of 601/448 BC between Serbian and Sardinian which diversify 500 AD, and Serbian and Italian)

    What are the big takeaways from this data?
    - There is very little to no overlap with the more Southern and Eastern Balkans and these British, Sardinian-Italian branches after the initial E-V13 dispersion in the Transitional Period (younger than 900 BC).
    - Most of the later overlap with other macro-regoins, in ancients and moderns, is with Hungarians and Serbs dating to about 500-400 BC. Therefore it looks that the source group for these E-V13 branches was in the area of Hungary-Western Romania-Northern Serbia about 500-400 BC.
    - The branching in North West Italia started likely earlier, but the proven diversification in situ starts in Sardinia/North Western Italia between about 300 BC-100 AD.
    - The British branched off from these Sardinian-Italian branches about 100 BC-100 AD.

    This means it looks to me like a good portion of these British E-V13 ancestors lived in or close to North Western Italy 300 BC-100 AD. The start of the local founding events in North Western Italy overlaps with the last common ancestors of the British and North Western Italians.

    When these E-V13 lineages entered Britain is unknown, but the latest date for their arrival is definitely before 800 AD for many, with potential stop in or around Germany and France in between. That's not known.

    This leaves a variety of options of how these modern British E-V13 lineages migrated, but it makes a stop of their ancestors in or close to North Western Italy-Switzerland highly likely, which is a curious thing in itself I'd say. Possible explanations are Late Hallstatt-Vekerzug into La Tene migrations (backflow from the Carpathian Basin and North Balkan?), to Romans assimilating those North Italians or transfering people from the Carpatho-Balkan/Middle Danubian zone towards North Western Italy in that time frame, which later migrated onwards to Britain.

    Because of the scope of this, we see it in many British lineages which have sufficient testing and can be put into a network of non-British testers, I would rather suggest a Celtic La Tene backflow event, after Late Hallstatt-Vekerzug, Illyrian and Thracian areas integration into the La Tene Celtic sphere.

    Also noteworthy: For these lineages is more overlap with areas like Poland other than any other Balkan country than Serbia, which is closest ot the Danubian region. There is no other noticeable, recent Balkan overlap for these branches. Probably somebody knows one, but it won't change he overall impression for the great majority.

    This also shows how far the reconstruction of pathways can go with enough modern and ancient DNA testing combined. Because things got really narrowed down for some of these branches, like fairly recent (AD) TMRCA dates for the English-Irish vs. Sardinian-Italian lineages.

    Now it would be interesting to explore whether we can associate a specific event(s) and movement(s) of people from North Western Italy with an arrival in Britain or alternative scenarios to explain the observable pattern.


    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....262#post908262


    Fits in.

  9. #984
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Funny, I just posted this concerning the potential Late Hallstatt-Vekerzug into La Tene era E-V13 expansions into Northern Italy:
    Case Report: The British & Sardinian connection

    With better sampling we can better reconstruct the migration and expansion of E-V13 lineages. The best NGS sampled areas up to now are the British Isles, Sardinia (because of one major study done on the island population) and Albanians in moderns and Early Medieval Hungary.

    Looking at the data on FTDNA and YFull, there is a non random relationship between Hungarian samples from the early Avar and early Hungarian period, with Western people and a particularly close one of Sardinians and British E-V13 carriers, to the, largely, exclusion of the Southern Central Balkans in a specific time window.

    Like we can reconstruct with time windows: When did these E-V13 carriers migrate out of Hungary, when did they reach Sardinia and when, sometimes even how, did they reach the British Isles.

    There are many examples of this peculiar pattern of British lineages sharing their most recent ancestor with Sardinian ones, nearly always to the exclusion of the Balkans, sometimes, but not always, with the inclusion of other Italians, Germans and French.
    It is also noteworthy that the Sardinians are likely not the primary source on the Westward route, but these were North Western Italian people, mostly from the area of Liguria, Genua, from where the majority of these Sardinian lineage is supposed to come from, but from which we have simply not as many samples.

    Here some of the definining branches in question (TMRCA is always just the average, range must be considered):

    E-BY6162 (TMRCA of 476 BC between the Hungarian-Avar and Italian)
    E-FTB70721 (TMRCA of 60 AD between British and Sardinian)
    E-Z21367 (TMRCA of 500 BC between British/Irish/German and Hungarian-Avar and Sardinian, Sardinian diversify 200 AD)
    E-Z21291 (TMRCA of 624 BC between French, British and Sardinian, with Sardinian diversification 200 BC)
    E-BY4991 (TMRCA of 143 AD between German, Hungarian Arpad and British)
    E-FT92232 (TMRCA of 417 BC between British and Italian)
    E-BY159978 (TMRCA of 398 BC between British and Italian)
    E-BY6263 (TMRCA of 317 BC between British and Swiss)
    E-FTA40200 (TMRCA of 456 BC between British and modern Hungarian)
    E-BY4404 sticks out as one of the few Eastern Balkan connections with (TMRCA of 153 BC between British and Bulgarian, Turkish, not sure if its an ethnic English lineage)
    E-FT106938 (TMRCA of 760 BC between Irish and modern Hungarian)

    E-Z16988 is particularly interesting, because it combines in different of its subclades ancient Hungarian, Sardinian-Italian, German, Serbian and British lineages:
    E-Z21350 (TMRCA of 576/552 BC between German and English, which start to diversify 826 AD, and Irish, Polish and Sardinian, with Sardinian starting to branch 50 AD)
    E-A11837 (TMRCA of 601/448 BC between Serbian and Sardinian which diversify 500 AD, and Serbian and Italian)

    What are the big takeaways from this data?
    - There is very little to no overlap with the more Southern and Eastern Balkans and these British, Sardinian-Italian branches after the initial E-V13 dispersion in the Transitional Period (younger than 900 BC).
    - Most of the later overlap with other macro-regoins, in ancients and moderns, is with Hungarians and Serbs dating to about 500-400 BC. Therefore it looks that the source group for these E-V13 branches was in the area of Hungary-Western Romania-Northern Serbia about 500-400 BC.
    - The branching in North West Italia started likely earlier, but the proven diversification in situ starts in Sardinia/North Western Italia between about 300 BC-100 AD.
    - The British branched off from these Sardinian-Italian branches about 100 BC-100 AD.

    This means it looks to me like a good portion of these British E-V13 ancestors lived in or close to North Western Italy 300 BC-100 AD. The start of the local founding events in North Western Italy overlaps with the last common ancestors of the British and North Western Italians.

    When these E-V13 lineages entered Britain is unknown, but the latest date for their arrival is definitely before 800 AD for many, with potential stop in or around Germany and France in between. That's not known.

    This leaves a variety of options of how these modern British E-V13 lineages migrated, but it makes a stop of their ancestors in or close to North Western Italy-Switzerland highly likely, which is a curious thing in itself I'd say. Possible explanations are Late Hallstatt-Vekerzug into La Tene migrations (backflow from the Carpathian Basin and North Balkan?), to Romans assimilating those North Italians or transfering people from the Carpatho-Balkan/Middle Danubian zone towards North Western Italy in that time frame, which later migrated onwards to Britain.

    Because of the scope of this, we see it in many British lineages which have sufficient testing and can be put into a network of non-British testers, I would rather suggest a Celtic La Tene backflow event, after Late Hallstatt-Vekerzug, Illyrian and Thracian areas integration into the La Tene Celtic sphere.

    Also noteworthy: For these lineages is more overlap with areas like Poland other than any other Balkan country than Serbia, which is closest ot the Danubian region. There is no other noticeable, recent Balkan overlap for these branches. Probably somebody knows one, but it won't change he overall impression for the great majority.

    This also shows how far the reconstruction of pathways can go with enough modern and ancient DNA testing combined. Because things got really narrowed down for some of these branches, like fairly recent (AD) TMRCA dates for the English-Irish vs. Sardinian-Italian lineages.

    Now it would be interesting to explore whether we can associate a specific event(s) and movement(s) of people from North Western Italy with an arrival in Britain or alternative scenarios to explain the observable pattern.


    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....262#post908262


    Fits in.
    I think some subclades under E-V13 back to Anglo-Saxon and Norman but i think most subclades in the UK under E-V13 back to era Roman or maybe Celts too ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by capisan View Post
    I think some subclades under E-V13 back to Anglo-Saxon and Norman but i think most subclades in the UK under E-V13 back to era Roman or maybe Celts too ?
    I think Normans played a role, but many British branches look older.
    But the Italian connection is now pretty clear and likely Alpine Celtic related, both pre-Roman and Roman era for Germany-France-Britain.

    Would be great to have more Swiss tested too

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    Fox might be including Bulgaria in the Iron Age, strange comparison graph to omit Bulgaria in Bronze Age and Roman period but include it in Iron Age. He might be doing it consciously to prevent people from figuring out the new samples.

    Iron Age Serbia:

    7 E-V13 (0 if Bulgaria is included)
    0 J2b-L283
    2 J2a
    2 R-Z2103
    2-3 R-M269
    2 R-xM269
    1 G2a
    2 R-L51
    1 I1
    1-2 R1a-Z93 (2 if Bulgaria is excluded)
    1 I2-L621
    3 other (0 if Bulgaria E-M78s are included)

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    Quote Originally Posted by capisan View Post
    I think some subclades under E-V13 back to Anglo-Saxon and Norman but i think most subclades in the UK under E-V13 back to era Roman or maybe Celts too ?
    Yeah i thinks some Celts and Germanic too belong a Haplogroup E-V13
    Like this subclade is seemed to is very likely Germanic cluster
    https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-S3003/tree

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Funny, I just posted this concerning the potential Late Hallstatt-Vekerzug into La Tene era E-V13 expansions into Northern Italy:
    Case Report: The British & Sardinian connection

    With better sampling we can better reconstruct the migration and expansion of E-V13 lineages. The best NGS sampled areas up to now are the British Isles, Sardinia (because of one major study done on the island population) and Albanians in moderns and Early Medieval Hungary.

    Looking at the data on FTDNA and YFull, there is a non random relationship between Hungarian samples from the early Avar and early Hungarian period, with Western people and a particularly close one of Sardinians and British E-V13 carriers, to the, largely, exclusion of the Southern Central Balkans in a specific time window.

    Like we can reconstruct with time windows: When did these E-V13 carriers migrate out of Hungary, when did they reach Sardinia and when, sometimes even how, did they reach the British Isles.

    There are many examples of this peculiar pattern of British lineages sharing their most recent ancestor with Sardinian ones, nearly always to the exclusion of the Balkans, sometimes, but not always, with the inclusion of other Italians, Germans and French.
    It is also noteworthy that the Sardinians are likely not the primary source on the Westward route, but these were North Western Italian people, mostly from the area of Liguria, Genua, from where the majority of these Sardinian lineage is supposed to come from, but from which we have simply not as many samples.

    Here some of the definining branches in question (TMRCA is always just the average, range must be considered):

    E-BY6162 (TMRCA of 476 BC between the Hungarian-Avar and Italian)
    E-FTB70721 (TMRCA of 60 AD between British and Sardinian)
    E-Z21367 (TMRCA of 500 BC between British/Irish/German and Hungarian-Avar and Sardinian, Sardinian diversify 200 AD)
    E-Z21291 (TMRCA of 624 BC between French, British and Sardinian, with Sardinian diversification 200 BC)
    E-BY4991 (TMRCA of 143 AD between German, Hungarian Arpad and British)
    E-FT92232 (TMRCA of 417 BC between British and Italian)
    E-BY159978 (TMRCA of 398 BC between British and Italian)
    E-BY6263 (TMRCA of 317 BC between British and Swiss)
    E-FTA40200 (TMRCA of 456 BC between British and modern Hungarian)
    E-BY4404 sticks out as one of the few Eastern Balkan connections with (TMRCA of 153 BC between British and Bulgarian, Turkish, not sure if its an ethnic English lineage)
    E-FT106938 (TMRCA of 760 BC between Irish and modern Hungarian)

    E-Z16988 is particularly interesting, because it combines in different of its subclades ancient Hungarian, Sardinian-Italian, German, Serbian and British lineages:
    E-Z21350 (TMRCA of 576/552 BC between German and English, which start to diversify 826 AD, and Irish, Polish and Sardinian, with Sardinian starting to branch 50 AD)
    E-A11837 (TMRCA of 601/448 BC between Serbian and Sardinian which diversify 500 AD, and Serbian and Italian)

    What are the big takeaways from this data?
    - There is very little to no overlap with the more Southern and Eastern Balkans and these British, Sardinian-Italian branches after the initial E-V13 dispersion in the Transitional Period (younger than 900 BC).
    - Most of the later overlap with other macro-regoins, in ancients and moderns, is with Hungarians and Serbs dating to about 500-400 BC. Therefore it looks that the source group for these E-V13 branches was in the area of Hungary-Western Romania-Northern Serbia about 500-400 BC.
    - The branching in North West Italia started likely earlier, but the proven diversification in situ starts in Sardinia/North Western Italia between about 300 BC-100 AD.
    - The British branched off from these Sardinian-Italian branches about 100 BC-100 AD.

    This means it looks to me like a good portion of these British E-V13 ancestors lived in or close to North Western Italy 300 BC-100 AD. The start of the local founding events in North Western Italy overlaps with the last common ancestors of the British and North Western Italians.

    When these E-V13 lineages entered Britain is unknown, but the latest date for their arrival is definitely before 800 AD for many, with potential stop in or around Germany and France in between. That's not known.

    This leaves a variety of options of how these modern British E-V13 lineages migrated, but it makes a stop of their ancestors in or close to North Western Italy-Switzerland highly likely, which is a curious thing in itself I'd say. Possible explanations are Late Hallstatt-Vekerzug into La Tene migrations (backflow from the Carpathian Basin and North Balkan?), to Romans assimilating those North Italians or transfering people from the Carpatho-Balkan/Middle Danubian zone towards North Western Italy in that time frame, which later migrated onwards to Britain.

    Because of the scope of this, we see it in many British lineages which have sufficient testing and can be put into a network of non-British testers, I would rather suggest a Celtic La Tene backflow event, after Late Hallstatt-Vekerzug, Illyrian and Thracian areas integration into the La Tene Celtic sphere.

    Also noteworthy: For these lineages is more overlap with areas like Poland other than any other Balkan country than Serbia, which is closest ot the Danubian region. There is no other noticeable, recent Balkan overlap for these branches. Probably somebody knows one, but it won't change he overall impression for the great majority.

    This also shows how far the reconstruction of pathways can go with enough modern and ancient DNA testing combined. Because things got really narrowed down for some of these branches, like fairly recent (AD) TMRCA dates for the English-Irish vs. Sardinian-Italian lineages.

    Now it would be interesting to explore whether we can associate a specific event(s) and movement(s) of people from North Western Italy with an arrival in Britain or alternative scenarios to explain the observable pattern.


    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....262#post908262


    Fits in.
    During Iron Age that Bled area was known for having cremation cemeteries. Now, i don't know the ethnic affiliations, perhaps some people related to Veneti and Pannonians? Perhaps they were separate ethnicity from Illyri proprii dictii? It's becoming a pattern finding E-V13 to a degree in Hallstatt, remember we have one potential even among La Tene in Southern France.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    During Iron Age that Bled area was known for having cremation cemeteries. Now, i don't know the ethnic affiliations, perhaps some people related to Veneti and Pannonians? Perhaps they were separate ethnicity from Illyri proprii dictii? It's becoming a pattern finding E-V13 to a degree in Hallstatt, remember we have one potential even among La Tene in Southern France.
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    We have new ancient DNA evidence, this time from Romanised people in Slovenia - not sure if its E-V13 though, but chances are good - probably someone experienced can check the values for a confirmation?



    Some details:


    Could be a non-E-V13 from the E1b1b spectrum as well, of course. Without a better analysis, it remains speculative.

    https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers....act_id=4331032
    Worth to note, the local population belonged originally to the Eastern Hallstat cremating groups, probably associated with the Frög group, but often seen independent, as an independen Ljubljana group:

    The town of Bled lies on the shore of lake Bled - an Alpine lake with glacial and tectonic origin. Lake is located in the Blejski kot that is most northern and highest part of the Savska ravan. To the west and south, Blejski kot is surrounded with high Alpine plateaus of Pokljuka and Jelovica where altitudes reach over 1000 m. A deep river bed of Sava that has cut numerous terraces is separating Blejski kot from the lowland areas towards east. With the island that is located in the middle of the lake, Lake Bled has become a prominent tourist destination from the 19th century onwards. But Lake Bled has attracted continuous human settlement at least from the Neolithic period. Majority of the discovered remains indicate that 4 locations on the shores were most suitable for earlier activities. The most dominant position in the microregion belongs to the ridge that is extending along the northern shore of the lake with the peak on which stands the Medieval castle. Large scale excavations that were conducted on Pristava - the northern and lower part of the ridge - have revealed a large necropolis with burials characteristic for Prehistory, Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages, more than 70 cremation graves were atributed to the Early Iron Age. Remains of the Early Iron Age settlement were discovered on the northern slopes of Castle hill, layers with high concentration of Early Iron age pottery fragments indicate that the settlment was also on the elevated part of Pristava. Prehistoric graves that were discovered at the end of 19th century on the northern edge of town Bled indicate that another area was used as necropolis. Excavations were also conducted on the Bled Island where terrain was vastly modified due to construction of a church. Among older phases of the church the remains of a Prehistoric hearth is mentioned. The context was atributed to Hallstatt period and also to Neolithic, so the dating remains questionable. Numerous finds of Prehistoric metal objects that were discovered submerged, near the Lake outflow Jezernica, indicate that ritual activities were practiced there. Earliest objects belong to Middle Bronze Age, an iron one-sided winged axe suggest that tradition was practiced in Younger Hallstatt also.
    https://www.iron-age-danube.eu/archiv/site/detail/11149

    Die Gegend von Gorenjsko, die zwischen den
    beiden stärksten Gruppen, der Unterkrain- und der
    Sv. Lucija-Gruppe, liegt, haben wir als Ljubljana-
    Gruppe bezeichnet. Dazu veranlaßte uns die
    Urnenfeldnekropole in Ljubljana, womit wir die
    eigenständige urnenfelderzeitliche Ljubljana-Gruppe
    begründet haben (Gabrovec 1973). Diese setzt
    sich noch in der Hallstattzeit fort und behält die
    alte Bestattungsweise bis zum Certosa-Horizont
    bei. Das gilt vor allem für die Nekropole von
    Ljubljana im Hof der Slowenischen Akademie
    der Wissenschaften und Künste (SAZU). Flache
    Brandgräber gibt es auch auf dem Molnik (Puš
    1984, 1991), in Bled (Gabrovec 1960a), Kranj -
    Prah-Villa (Gabrovec 1960c) und Mengeš (Gabro-
    vec 1965) - diese Nekropolen beginnen später als
    die von Ljubljana - mit der Stufe Podzemelj.
    Here met Urnfield with Illyrian-related influences:

    Diese Bestattungsvielfalt ist nur ein Beweis
    dafür, daß Gorenjsko keinen einheitlichen Kul-
    turraum darstellt, wie es in Dolenjsko oder im
    Soča-Gebiet der Fall ist, und daß wir nicht von
    einer Kulturgruppe im selben Sinne wie in den
    beiden anderen Gruppen sprechen können. Nach
    dem heutigen Forschungsstand handelt es sich
    um eine intensivere Besiedlung zur Zeit der Ur-
    nenfelderkultur von Ljubljana, die noch in der
    Hallstattzeit weiterlebt, die materielle Kultur dieser
    Zeit übernimmt, aber die alte Bestattungsweise
    beibehält. Der Bereich fügte sich in der jüngeren
    Zeit der Sv. Lucija-Gruppe, so im Bohinj-Tal
    (Gabrovec 1974b), oder der Unterkrain-Gruppe,
    so auf dem Molnik. Auf diese Weise können wir
    heute Gorenjsko eher als Durchgangsgebiet denn
    als Kulturgruppe im wahrsten Sinne des Wortes
    bezeichnen.
    http://av.zrc-sazu.si/pdf/50/AV_50_Gabrovec.pdf

    Since these relevant Eastern Hallstatt groups, of which some had Thraco-Cimmerian and Basarabi connections, later Vekerzug ones, did all cremate before the Roman era, we might deal with a similar situation as in Viminacium, with these Roman era samples being the first to appear after the cremation rite stopped in late Roman and early Christian times. The Basarabi-related hotspot of Frög is nearby and did influence this group, which did bury its dead in flat urn cremation graves.

    Frög with its strong Thraco-Cimmerian and Basarabi connections, is one of these Eastern Hallstatt groups for which I always did bet on an E-V13 presence. These samples might, just might, be the first harder evidence for this. There are also connections to the Este culture (Veneti), Northern Italy and the West Balkan in general.

    Would be great to get E-V13 confirmed, even a subclade and their autosomal profile.

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