To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[torzio]

To clarify something that Psenicevo-Babadag (EIA E-V13 leaks), Insula Banului, and other related cultures are indeed classified as either heavily or itself as part of South-Eastern Urnfield Culture (and this is actually the origin of the so called Urnfield Cultural Complex with the others being more culturally influenced), latter an offshot of it called Thracian Hallstatt.

It's less clear who was the predecessor of these cultures, Otomani and Noua admixture could have produced. So let's say Otomani => E-V13 and Noua => R1a (IE)?? produced the latter cultures with E-V13 prevailing in huge number since it was more common on the Southern hemisphere which survived and spread/pushed more in South during LBA/EIA transition.

Danubo-Carpathian complex is a bit confusing, but a very viable candidate of E-V13 origin considering modern diversity and the leaks from Psenicevo-Babadag being exclusively E-V13 which in essence was part of the Danubo-Carpathian complex.

It's less clear in the case of Illyrians, if they were really J2b2-L283 dominated even on Illyri proprie dictii territories as well, or if E-V13 was present there like at some tribes (Dardani, Enchelei, Pirusti => cremation on pyre/urns, i have yet to find direct evidence for Ardiai and Taulanti => indirectly mentioned that cremation urns on Epidamnus were native and not from Greek colonizers, the natives of Epidamnus were either Taulanti or Labeate). But there is no doubt inhumation was the norm among Illyrians. In fact, many of the aforementioned MBA/LBA groups used cremation in combination with inhumation, cremation on a pyre with beneath having a mound/tumuli was a very expensive ritual, it could not be affordable to do it all the time.

this croatian paper clearly shows the proto-illyrians as being G2a2 .............this marker is found in the study in dalmatia, and we also know it is also in tyrol austria and north-italy..........it should also be found in slovenia and Noricum ( east austria )

There is one sample of the 4 Daunian samples which came from Dalmatia/Liburnia who is J2-L283 ( sample ORD014 )

Otzi ancestor is from Dalmatia

 

[Hawk]

this croatian paper clearly shows the proto-illyrians as being G2a2 .............this marker is found in the study in dalmatia, and we also know it is also in tyrol austria and north-italy..........it should also be found in slovenia and Noricum ( east austria )

There is one sample of the 4 Daunian samples which came from Dalmatia/Liburnia who is J2-L283 ( sample ORD014 )

Otzi ancestor is from Dalmatia

That's not possible and i have no idea why you jump so without chronology and context.

 

[torzio]

That's not possible and i have no idea why you jump so without chronology and context.

2000 years of G2a2 in Dalmatia as per the paper is a very good probability

 

[Hawk]

2000 years of G2a2 in Dalmatia as per the paper is a very good probability

That's simply not enough, the G2a2 was within the context of Encrusted Pottery Culture, while it is true that the Koszidor hoard from Trans-Danubia which contributed to Glasinac-Mat Illyrians were pushed by HugelgraberKultur or they were mixed HugelgraberKultur + Encrusted Pottery Culture, this is something to further get resolved by aDNA.

 

[Johane Derite]

That's simply not enough, the G2a2 was within the context of Encrusted Pottery Culture, while it is true that the Koszidor hoard from Trans-Danubia which contributed to Glasinac-Mat Illyrians were pushed by HugelgraberKultur or they were mixed HugelgraberKultur + Encrusted Pottery Culture, this is something to further get resolved by aDNA.

Does anybody have a link to the IA leak of E-V13 in psenicevo? Or a screenshot?

 

[Hawk]

Does anybody have a link to the IA leak of E-V13 in psenicevo? Or a screenshot?

Just so you know, you made me search my local files, internet just to find it:

EIA Bulgaria

Early Bronze Age Bulgaria

Late Neolithic Bulgaria

 

[Johane Derite]

Just so you know, you made me search my local files, internet just to find it:

Thanks. So 4 samples there. Is Kapitan Andrevo related to Psenicevo culture?

This is an interesting paper on some of the groups being discussed here:

"Troy was known under the name of Wilusa/Tru(w)isa/Taruisa in the Hittite sources, (W)Ilios/Troy in the Greek sources and Dardaniya in the Egyptian ones"

LINK: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/r...er-danube-region-at-the-end-of-the-bronze-age

 

[Johane Derite]

A map of some of these late bronze age migrations from the Balkans/Danube to Troy:

 

[Riverman]

To clarify something that Psenicevo-Babadag (EIA E-V13 leaks), Insula Banului, and other related cultures are indeed classified as either heavily or itself as part of South-Eastern Urnfield Culture (and this is actually the origin of the so called Urnfield Cultural Complex with the others being more culturally influenced), latter an offshot of it called Thracian Hallstatt.

Yes, all part of the Channelled Ware horizon with Gava as the cultural (not necessarily but probably) genetic centre.

It's less clear who was the predecessor of these cultures, Otomani and Noua admixture could have produced.

Otomani is a good candidate for a contributor, but just recently I read that Otomani was largely replaced by pre-Gava, presumably from the North. But the exact origin of the newcomers is unknown in detail and they probably fused.

So let's say Otomani => E-V13 and Noua => R1a (IE)?? produced the latter cultures with E-V13 prevailing in huge number since it was more common on the Southern hemisphere which survived and spread/pushed more in South during LBA/EIA transition.

Channelled Ware spread first, Noua were just steppe pastoralists, orginally rather simple but fairly aggressive ones. The Channelled Ware expansion happened first, then followed the penetration of a large portion of their territory by Eastern steppe nomads, which caused the transition to a more pastoralist, horse warrior lifestyle. But the ceramic and basic traditions were still clearly Gava/Channelled Ware. This fusion created the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and historically known Dacians, Getae and Thracians among others, directly transitioning and influencing Hallstatt, which is very important for the Western spread.

It's less clear in the case of Illyrians, if they were really J2b2-L283 dominated even on Illyri proprie dictii territories as well, or if E-V13 was present there like at some tribes (Dardani, Enchelei, Pirusti => cremation on pyre/urns, i have yet to find direct evidence for Ardiai and Taulanti => indirectly mentioned that cremation urns on Epidamnus were native and not from Greek colonizers, the natives of Epidamnus were either Taulanti or Labeate). But there is no doubt inhumation was the norm among Illyrians. In fact, many of the aforementioned MBA/LBA groups used cremation in combination with inhumation, cremation on a pyre with beneath having a mound/tumuli was a very expensive ritual, it could not be affordable to do it all the time.

E-V13 could have been present in other Southern Urnfield groups too, but only the South Eastern Channelled Ware horizon seems to have been dominated. And their expansion runs directly through the centre of Pannonia, with the Eastern part being theirs, while the Western belongs rather to other (independent? Illyrian related?) Pannonian groups. This means Illyrians proper could have had E-V13 too, later on, but from the Channelled Ware/South Eastern Urnfield expansion and rather secondarily, rather than being defined by it. Simlar to e.g. Celts.

Concerning Troy and North Western Asia minor, the Thyni and Bithyni are supposed to have been of Thracian origin and all the groups of the map post by Johan are derived from Channelled Ware, essentially, and related to Daco-Thracians, like Babadag/Knobbed Ware is a direct descendent from the Channelled Ware groups. So they should consist almost exclusively of E-V13 and (Cimmerian-Scythian) R1a.

Also note the timing, it fits the spread of the V13 subclades 100 %.

 

[Hawk]

Thanks. So 4 samples there. Is Kapitan Andrevo related to Psenicevo culture?

This is an interesting paper on some of the groups being discussed here:

"Troy was known under the name of Wilusa/Tru(w)isa/Taruisa in the Hittite sources, (W)Ilios/Troy in the Greek sources and Dardaniya in the Egyptian ones"

LINK: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/r...er-danube-region-at-the-end-of-the-bronze-age

I posted it here:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...IA-Balkan-case?p=628346&viewfull=1#post628346

from the catalogued sites, most of them (cat. no. 1, 3-6, 10, 14, 19, 21-22, 28-30, 33-35, 37, 45-46, 51-53) were ascribed to Gáva culture, most of the information concerning burials in settlements coming from r ather re cent f inds i n the i ntr a-Carpathi an reg ion, up t o Tisza River. Other such finds are concentrated at the Lower Danube, mostly ascribed to Babadag culture (cat. no. 2, 7-9, 11-12, 16-17, 24, 27, 31, 36, 38, 41, 43); in our opinion, the site at Tămăoani can be ascribed to Belozerka culture (see Ailincăiet alii 2014) (cat. no. 48). The finds from Upper and Middle Dnestr were ascribed both to Saharna-Solonceni culture (cat. no. 15, 39-40) and Černoles culture (cat. no. 20, 23, 50); the finds at Ostrovul Corbului, Gomolava and Nov i Sad wer e included in the are al of K ala kač a cu ltur e, and the finds from Sava, Karanovo and Svilengrad are probably part of Pšeničevo culture. A special place among these finds is held by the settlement from Tărtăria, characterized by Basarabi-style decorated pottery (Graphic 1).

https://rae.arts.ro/filecase/filetyp...2020-00022.pdf

In the horizon with fluted ceramics from the south-west and the southof Romania, a series of cultural groups evolved: the cultural group Susani (inthe centre and the north of Banat, having as a basis the group Balta Sărată), thegroup Bobda (in the west and the north-west of Banat, the north-east ofVojvodina – appeared from Cruceni-Belegiš), on the same cultural basis wasformed the group Ticvaniu Mare-Karaburma III (in the contact area betweenthe western piedmont of Banat, the south-west of Banat, the south of Vojvodina);and we also add here, taking into account the contribution of Cruceni-Belegišculture, the groups from the south of Banat and Oltenia: MoldovaNouăandHinova; their evolution will be interrupted in Banat by the shortappearance of the culture Gáva-Holihrady, also interrupted by the appearancefrom the west of the group Gornea-Kalakaca (the south of Banat).The culture Corlăteni-Chișinău (having an origin which is not very welldefined) is also part of the first cultural complex of fluted ceramics; it was namedafter the discoveries from Corlăteni and the ones from Chișinău and its spreadingarea is the hilly region and the forest steppe from the Eastern Carpathiansand thebasin of the Dnestr, except for the northern part occupied by the culture GávaHolihrady. From the second complex (of incised and imprinted ceramics), thefollowing are part of: the culture Babadag (spread in the north-east of Muntenia,the south of Moldavia and the north of Dobrogea, the north of Bulgaria), insidewhich the group (phase?) Târnăoani (the south of Moldavia, the north-east ofMuntenia and the north of Dobrogea) was created; step-by-step, the culture fromBabadag expanded in the entire Dobrogea and Muntenia, when there is the periodof relative cultural unity with the group Insula Banului (Porțile de Fier) and withthe group Cozia (the south and centre of Moldavia). What is special (or maybe aprotraction of phase III of Babadag Culture – according to some researchers) isthe group Stoicani (the south of Moldavia), named after the necropolis from theeponymous place.

https://rae.arts.ro/filecase/filetyp...2020-00022.pdf

Yes, it is quite interesting how the movement of this people affected Balkans and North-West Anatolia. I think Riverman is quite right when he says if not E-V13 then we need to find for another candidate, but so far and so less there is no other candidate.

 

[torzio]

I posted it here:

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...IA-Balkan-case?p=628346&viewfull=1#post628346







Yes, it is quite interesting how the movement of this people affected Balkans and North-West Anatolia. I think Riverman is quite right when he says if not E-V13 then we need to find for another candidate, but so far and so less there is no other candidate.

Troy 6 is the war against the greeks and it happened 1185BC as per the current 30 year ongoing dig at Troy
Walls of Troy VI. Troy or Ilion was an ancient city, known as the setting for the Greek myth of the Trojan War. It was located at Hisarlik in present-day Turkey, 30 kilometres (19 mi) south-west of Çanakkale.



In the last phase of Troia VI, i.e. in Troia VIh, the lower town was defended by a palisade and a ditch. Also, either in Troia VIh or in Troia VIIa, a second ditch was dug further to the south (Easton 2002, 83-94, with refs. to Studia Troica and Korfmann et al. 2001; Jablonka 1994, 1995 and 1996, and cf. the summary descriptions in Latacz 2004, 25-35). There may also have been a defensive wall around the lower town (Easton 2002, 91-93 with refs.) although the evidence for this is not conclusive.

It is now generally agreed that the large buildings of Troy VI within the citadel were destroyed by an earthquake at the end of Troia VIh, as Blegen had concluded (Blegen et al. 1953, 329-332, Mountjoy 1999a, 253-256, cf. Rapp 1982, 43-58). According to Mountjoy’s analysis of the pottery, this destruction took place at the end of the LH IIIA2 period, or c. 1300 B.C. (Mountjoy 1999a, 258, 288). Rebuilding began soon after the earthquake, and in the citadel the new and much smaller buildings of Troia VIIa were constructed on the ruins of the Troia VI houses.


the paper has dates skewed

 

[Riverman]

Troy 6 is the war against the greeks and it happened 1185BC as per the current 30 year ongoing dig at Troy
Walls of Troy VI. Troy or Ilion was an ancient city, known as the setting for the Greek myth of the Trojan War. It was located at Hisarlik in present-day Turkey, 30 kilometres (19 mi) south-west of Çanakkale.



In the last phase of Troia VI, i.e. in Troia VIh, the lower town was defended by a palisade and a ditch. Also, either in Troia VIh or in Troia VIIa, a second ditch was dug further to the south (Easton 2002, 83-94, with refs. to Studia Troica and Korfmann et al. 2001; Jablonka 1994, 1995 and 1996, and cf. the summary descriptions in Latacz 2004, 25-35). There may also have been a defensive wall around the lower town (Easton 2002, 91-93 with refs.) although the evidence for this is not conclusive.

It is now generally agreed that the large buildings of Troy VI within the citadel were destroyed by an earthquake at the end of Troia VIh, as Blegen had concluded (Blegen et al. 1953, 329-332, Mountjoy 1999a, 253-256, cf. Rapp 1982, 43-58). According to Mountjoy’s analysis of the pottery, this destruction took place at the end of the LH IIIA2 period, or c. 1300 B.C. (Mountjoy 1999a, 258, 288). Rebuilding began soon after the earthquake, and in the citadel the new and much smaller buildings of Troia VIIa were constructed on the ruins of the Troia VI houses.


the paper has dates skewed

Going by this interesting article, the Channelled Ware groups formed a network of distribution of Naue II swords and the earliest Naue II swords entered the Aegean with mercenaries - coming as far as Denmark to the Eastern Mediterranean.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...ords_-_a_Case_Study_on_Long-distance_Mobility

This suggests both Northern Greeks like the Dorians and other tribal warriors lived within the Mycenaean world before it was collapsing. Something being also suggested by the Barbarian ware and other artefacts. Which also means, that they were already in place, before the collapse. They could take over either from within or guide their tribal brethren once they targeted the Mycenaean strongholds.

About Barbarian Ware:

t is claimed that this type of pottery is a product of the foreign population which entered the mainland after the collapse of the Mycenaean palaces. However, later evidence proved that this ceramic type was in use already from the Late Helladic IIIA period and continued to exist during the Dark Ages. The fact that it occurs in exactly the same form also in other countries, Albania, Roumania and Italy, leads to the assumption that this pottery is related with movement of population which had started several centuries before the decline of the Mycenaean power.

http://www.fhw.gr/chronos/02/mainland/en/mg/technology/pottery/index4.html

 

[Aspurg]

Thanks. So 4 samples there. Is Kapitan Andrevo related to Psenicevo culture?

Kapitan Andreevo is a Psenicevo culture site (same goes for old the Svilengrad sample just nearby). Pottery demonstrates this totally as well as some other features.

 

[Aspurg]

I told you Encrusted Pottery Culture is not, the Kisapostag Culture was fully I2a. Kisapostag is the ancestral culture to Encrusted Pottery Culture. Unless Encrusted Pottery Culture was quite diverse of course.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...IA-Balkan-case?p=628655&viewfull=1#post628655

And yes, i have read that paper, hence why i was saying in my post three different cultures clashed in Middle Bronze Age to Late Bronze Age in the Carpathian-Danube basin, and whoever won that clash, that was the ancestor of E-V13, logically speaking if E-V13 spread big: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...kan-case/page2?p=629068&viewfull=1#post629068

In unpublished Hungarian study there are various Hungarian Transdanubian Encrusted samples and they are very similar to these new Croatian samples. Surprisingly huge WHG influence and even more surprisingly in that study there are earlier EBA Croatian samples from the same region with even more WHG..

It seems they might have been too I2a.

Nevertheless regarding that Hungarian study. There are actually two E1b finds, and they are not just E1b they are E1b1b1a = E-L539.

One is Urnfielder from the very NE Hungary from 1100 BC. Has a strong autosomal Steppe component.

The other E-L539 is from 2000 BC, and still carries more Steppe admixture than Croatian MBA J-L283 sample.. Exact location is unknown but might be Nitra and few other sites. I will try through eliminating most sites narrow down his position. Or maybe author tells me.

These are ofc still basic SNP calls but surely these samples are going to be V13. It's good to have them confirmed as Z827-, as there are some Scythian samples there so someone could speculate things with just E-M35..

So E-V13 seems non-Balkan in origin to sum it up. Cetina story is pretty much dead. Interestingly that there were some Cardials in Ukraine too.

Also it should be noted that these cultures such as Brnjica, Mediana, Paraćin, Zimnicea-Plovdiv, Vatina represent an older layer that was probably not E-V13.. And of course Girla-Mare as well going by these finds..

 

[Aspurg]

Going by this interesting article, the Channelled Ware groups formed a network of distribution of Naue II swords and the earliest Naue II swords entered the Aegean with mercenaries - coming as far as Denmark to the Eastern Mediterranean.

There are Naue II swords finds maybe from the very place where that LBA E-L539 is from. There are four sites overall there and they are all generally near Slovakian border. I'm trying to figure out his position. In any case I expect to have these exact sites soon, after which we can see exactly to which Urnfield cultures these belonged. Mind you that info is not contained in the leak info, but I have ways of finding that out by looking at some minute details.

 

[Aspurg]

Yea I forgot, there are also multiple Tumulus culture finds from Hungary in this study. it seems they are dominated by R-L51 as expected.

 

[kingjohn]

So bronze age slovakia and north hungary
Interesting


P.s
About them being e-z827 negetive
Not suprising most of e1b1b1 in europe are
E-v13
It might be that some non e-v13 entered
Europe in chl early bronze age
Likely e-m123> e-y31991
But most of the e-m34 arrived much
Later roman period mainly ( although y full suggest otherwise there is no dna remains to back it up at the moment)

 

[Hawk]

In unpublished Hungarian study there are various Hungarian Transdanubian Encrusted samples and they are very similar to these new Croatian samples. Surprisingly huge WHG influence and even more surprisingly in that study there are earlier EBA Croatian samples from the same region with even more WHG..

It seems they might have been too I2a.

Nevertheless regarding that Hungarian study. There are actually two E1b finds, and they are not just E1b they are E1b1b1a = E-L539.

One is Urnfielder from the very NE Hungary from 1100 BC. Has a strong autosomal Steppe component.

The other E-L539 is from 2000 BC, and still carries more Steppe admixture than Croatian MBA J-L283 sample.. Exact location is unknown but might be Nitra and few other sites. I will try through eliminating most sites narrow down his position. Or maybe author tells me.

These are ofc still basic SNP calls but surely these samples are going to be V13. It's good to have them confirmed as Z827-, as there are some Scythian samples there so someone could speculate things with just E-M35..

So E-V13 seems non-Balkan in origin to sum it up. Cetina story is pretty much dead. Interestingly that there were some Cardials in Ukraine too.

Also it should be noted that these cultures such as Brnjica, Mediana, Paraćin, Zimnicea-Plovdiv, Vatina represent an older layer that was probably not E-V13.. And of course Girla-Mare as well going by these finds..

Don't take it as capital, but it's interesting how Beskidy Mountains(which more or less is in and around those places) the only reasonable translation has in Proto-Albanian bjeshke as attested by Cabej and Orel.

 

[Riverman]

So bronze age slovakia and north hungary
Interesting


P.s
About them being e-z827 negetive
Not suprising most of e1b1b1 in europe are
E-v13
It might be that some non e-v13 entered
Europe in chl early bronze age
Likely e-m123> e-y31991
But most of the e-m34 arrived much
Later roman period mainly ( although y full suggest otherwise there is no dna remains to back it up at the moment)

There are hints a wider range of E1b entered Europe in the Neolithic, and many survived on a very low level, whereas E-V13 expanded big. But surely E-L618 didn't come alone, this is also what the French and German Neolithic finds suggest. They don't look all like being E-V13 related.

There are Naue II swords finds maybe from the very place where that LBA E-L539 is from. There are four sites overall there and they are all generally near Slovakian border. I'm trying to figure out his position. In any case I expect to have these exact sites soon, after which we can see exactly to which Urnfield cultures these belonged. Mind you that info is not contained in the leak info, but I have ways of finding that out by looking at some minute details.

This Pannonian study is really key, because it had already proven that E-V13 couldn't be from further South than Northern Hungary in the Bronze Age, especially not its demographical centre, and now it might even prove its survival and spread from within the Epi-Corded horizon. If the connection with Naue II swords and metallurgical innovations could be made as well, that would be jackpot. I just expect them to be higher in steppe and picking local ancestry up on the way, where they grabbed the local women as they moved to the Aegean and beyond (Troy, North Western Anatolia).
The only thing which concerns me is that North Western Anatolia is so low in V13, since there were they local Thyni and Bithyni Thracians. But these could have been regional founder effects, assimilation processes and later replacements. Because this surely was no region with a great deal of continuity since the Late Bronze Age. Still I would like to get ancient DNA samples from those too some day.

 

[kingjohn]

There are hints a wider range of E1b entered Europe in the Neolithic, and many survived on a very low level, whereas E-V13 expanded big. But surely E-L618 didn't come alone, this is also what the French and German Neolithic finds suggest. They don't look all like being E-V13 related.



This Pannonian study is really key, because it had already proven that E-V13 couldn't be from further South than Northern Hungary in the Bronze Age, especially not its demographical centre, and now it might even prove its survival and spread from within the Epi-Corded horizon. If the connection with Naue II swords and metallurgical innovations could be made as well, that would be jackpot. I just expect them to be higher in steppe and picking local ancestry up on the way, where they grabbed the local women as they moved to the Aegean and beyond (Troy, North Western Anatolia).
The only thing which concerns me is that North Western Anatolia is so low in V13, since there were they local Thyni and Bithyni Thracians. But these could have been regional founder effects, assimilation processes and later replacements. Because this surely was no region with a great deal of continuity since the Late Bronze Age. Still I would like to get ancient DNA samples from those too some day.

will see about it
if you ment to this research :

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2020/05/20/1918034117.full.pdf


who found e1b1a in noyen
and e1b1b in le cailar ( la tene)

E-M78 (x2) (6300-5900 ybp)
E-M215 (6300-5900 ybp)
E-M78 (6222-5956 ybp)
Saulager (BORS-Michelsberg)

E1b1b (predicted) (6250-5650 ybp)
Bruchsal-Aue (Michelsberg culture)

Ferme de l'Île (Noyen)
E1b1a1a1a1c2c (5640-5350 ybp) - E-CTS3274


Le Cailar (La Tène)
E-M215 (2400-2300 ybp)


p.s
i take them with grain of salt
most of the chances they are just bad coverage
or low resulution and they are likely also e-m78 like
the berg alsace remains