To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[Riverman]

will see about it
if you ment to this research :

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/early/2020/05/20/1918034117.full.pdf


who found e1b1a in noyen
and e1b1b in le cailar ( la tene)

E-M78 (x2) (6300-5900 ybp)
E-M215 (6300-5900 ybp)
E-M78 (6222-5956 ybp)
Saulager (BORS-Michelsberg)

E1b1b (predicted) (6250-5650 ybp)
Bruchsal-Aue (Michelsberg culture)

Ferme de l'Île (Noyen)
E1b1a1a1a1c2c (5640-5350 ybp) - E-CTS3274


Le Cailar (La Tène)
E-M215 (2400-2300 ybp)


p.s
i take them with grain of salt
most of the chances they are just bad coverage
or low resulution and they are likely also e-m78 like
the berg alsace remains

Part of the reason I believe non-V13 E1b spread in Early and Middle Neolithic Europe is the fact, that even in some Northern regions with little to no contacts to the Greco-Roman world the ratio is fairly high. And in lot of Western and Central European regions, the ratio is higher than in the Balkans, which is counterintuitive to all of them coming from more migrations.

 

[Hawk]

The heroon burial, a burial believed to be in a way related to the LBA Cyprus burial: https://www.researchgate.net/public...among_the_Urnfield_Culture_Mycenae_and_Cyprus

[h=2]The Heröon Burials[/h]Below the center room, two rectangular shafts extended deep into the bedrock. The northern-most shaft, cut 2.23 m (7.3 ft) below the rock surface, held the skeletal remains of three or four horses, apparently thrown or driven headfirst into the pit. The southern shaft was deeper, 2.63 m (8.6 ft) below the central room floor. The walls of this shaft were lined with mudbrick and faced with plaster. A small adobe and wooden structure were in one of the corners.

​

The southern shaft held two burials, an extended burial of a woman between 25–30 years, with a gold and faience necklace, gilt hair coils and other gold and iron artifacts; and a bronze amphora holding the cremated remains of a male warrior, aged 30–45. These burials suggested to the excavators that the building above was a heröon, a temple built to honor a hero, warrior, or king. Under the floor, east of the burial shaft was found an area of rock scorched by a fierce fire and containing a circle of postholes, believed to represent the pyre on which the hero was cremated.

https://www.thoughtco.com/lefkandi-greece-village-cemeteries-171525

 

[Hawk]

Something related to Channeled Ware (Belegis II- Gava ) and Dubovac Zuto Brdo.

144Numerous Early Iron Age finds, which were obtained after a series of excavation in the near past, originate from the area of Viminacium. Those finds are primarily repre-sented by potsherds and metal artifacts, while remains of architecture such as economic or residential buildings and graves, were recorded to a lesser degree. Finds belonging to the first phase of the Early Iron Age, i.e. the transition between the 2nd and the 1st millennium BC, are attributed to the bearers of the Channeled pottery culture (Belegiš II-Gava cul-ture). The finds originate from the enclosed contexts, the so-called ꞌꞌritual pitsꞌꞌ at the site of Pećine,1 in which those were recorded together with the pottery of the Dubovac-Žuto Brdo culture. The finds attributed to the Belegiš II-Gava culture have also been recorded at the site of Drmno-Lugovi (black-burnished and channeled pottery and one fibula of the ꞌꞌPeschiera typeꞌꞌ).2 Out of numerous sites in the wider area of Mlava and Danube conflu-ence, on which the Early Iron Age pottery was recorded, we highlight the site of Selište on the right bank of the former course of Mlava River, and the site of Rudine, located in Viminacium itself.3 These sites should be complemented with the sites of Obala Dunavca, Čair, and Drmno-Lugovi.4 The younger phases of the Early Iron Age are registered at the sites of Stari Kostolac-Mali Grad, Pećine and Drmno Nad Lugom.5 The collection of finds which originate from the wider area of the Braničevo District indicate the intensification of settlement in that area during the 1st millennium BC, and a certain cultural continuity which is confirmed by finds from all of the phases of the Early Iron Age: the Transitional period, the penetration of the Channeled pottery culture, early phase of the Bosut culture (Kalakača, Basarabi), and the Rača-Ljuljaci cultural group, followed by the first settling of Celtic populations during the 4th century BC.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...IRON_AGE_HORIZON_AT_THE_SITE_OF_NAD_KLEPECKOM

A relation between Cruceni-Belegis and Zuto-Brdo Garla Mare: https://www.researchgate.net/public...CULTURE_WITH_THE_ZUTO_BRDO-GARLA_MARE_CULTURE

 

[Hawk]

A comment by Draga Garasanin.

[FONT=&quot]In the above survey, we have tried to offer, on the basis of the available archaeological material, a picture of the Bronze Age and its cultural and chronological development during the centuries that this important period in prehistory belongs to. The distinction between cultural areas, depends to a great deal on the geographic and topographic character of the land, and indicates the basis for finer distinctions of the written sources that pertain to the Paleobalkan peoples. It is very important, that during the whole Bronze Age a continuity can be followed that extends to the period of transition into the Iron Age. This is characteristic of all the cultural groups of this area, including the Dubovac-Zuto Brdo, which in Oltenia is followed by the Insula Banului group and later the Bassarabi group in these parts and Transylvania (compare also some of the finds from Saraorci near Smederevo). In Thrace at this time we have the appearance of the new group, the so called Psenicevo which kept close contacts with the peoples of the Morava Lands area as can be seen from the finds in the Mediana group. It can also be noticed that the people, who during this period lived in the Morava Lands area took part if only partially in the movements attributed to the so called Aegean Migration. In this manner, the Bronze Age evolves as a very important stage in the process of formation of the Paleobalkan peoples, their ethnogenesis, and the historical events that have left their imprint, in a sense on the historical evolution of the old Balkans. Until now, enough attention has not been paid to this very important period in the ancient history of southeastern Europe except among the small circle of interested specialists. It is the purpose of this exhibition, to try and fulfill this gap, and offer a more understanding picture of this, not too well known period. We shall be very pleased if this exhibition and this short accompanying survey helped in any way to achieve this aim.[/FONT]
https://www.rastko.rs/arheologija/dgarasanin-the_bronze.htm

 

[Riverman]

A comment by Draga Garasanin.

Good comment. But the issue of continuity is problematic, because in many instances the shift was not gradual and not abrupt, but definitely disruptive in its character, since comlpetely new elements appeared. Does this mean that a large fraction of the elite and males was replaced in the process? Nobody can tell for sure, but its likely. And that's just what the corridor from Belegis II-Gava down to the Aegean suggests. Interesting that the author saw a direct connection with Psenicevo to the Morava/Belegis Gava. I knew it from the distribution maps, but that this author claims rather direct influence is interesting.

 

[kingjohn]

Part of the reason I believe non-V13 E1b spread in Early and Middle Neolithic Europe is the fact, that even in some Northern regions with little to no contacts to the Greco-Roman world the ratio is fairly high. And in lot of Western and Central European regions, the ratio is higher than in the Balkans, which is counterintuitive to all of them coming from more migrations.

i am open minded
to earlier enterance to europe
of 2 non- e-v13 clades
e-m123- y31991 ( maybe some cardial movement )
e-L19- E-PF2431 ( maybe entering iberia )

 

[Riverman]

i am open minded
to earlier enterance to europe
of 2 non- e-v13 clades
e-m123- y31991 ( maybe some cardial movement )
e-L19- E-PF2431 ( maybe entering iberia )

I want to have more data especially from areas like France, Germany, Czech R., Slovakia and Poland. Unfortunately these countries are severely undertested, especially if its about high resolution samples. For the Czechs, one of the newest reports brought up these numbers:

R1a 37%, R1b 26%, I2 10%, I1 7%, E1b1b 6%, G2a 4%, J2 3%, N 1%, J1 1%.

A high portion of these E1b1b carriers is not E-V13. The ratio is much higher than in most Balkan countries.

https://www.genebaze.cz/cgi-bin/gb.cgi

 

[Hawk]

Why do people keep bringing Central-Western Urnfield as their argument out of thin air?

Danubo-Carpathian Urnfield had nothing to do with Central-Western Urnfield ethnically-wise, culturally yes, hence why it is called a cultural complex which included various different people.

 

[Hawk]

[FONT=&quot]During a thunderstorm, the Thracians used to go out in the open and fire arrows at the sky. With this behaviour, they believed they showed the god Zeus (among the Thracians also called Sbeldturdos or Gebeleizis) that they were not afraid of him and that they were the sole masters of their own lives and destinies.
[/FONT]

 

[Hawk]

If Huban is right and the Late Bronze Age E-V13 sample belongs to: http://www.donau-archaeologie.de/doku.php/kulturen/nyirseg_english_version

This cultural complex is also called Vekerzug culture which is an Eastern Hallstatt Culture: https://www.researchgate.net/public..._other_Eastern_cultures_in_the_Czech_Republic

Looks like approximately Riverman could be quite on track.

 

[Riverman]

If Huban is right and the Late Bronze Age E-V13 sample belongs to: http://www.donau-archaeologie.de/doku.php/kulturen/nyirseg_english_version

This cultural complex is also called Vekerzug culture which is an Eastern Hallstatt Culture: https://www.researchgate.net/public..._other_Eastern_cultures_in_the_Czech_Republic

Looks like approximately Riverman could be quite on track.

Vekerzug is essentially an Iranian/Scythian intrusion into Pannonia, it came later and hit the Urnfielders hard in some areas. They seem to have integrated, on the longer run, a lot of the Channelled Ware people, which created that kind of E-V13 rich, Daco-Thracian mostly "Scythians" and Getae-Scythians with Daco-Thracian (Gava-derived) pottery and sedentary elements, but also Iranian horse warrior and pastoralist ones.
Ny?rs?g culture is hard to track, but its in the right place at the right time, they did cremate and even where they were later assimilated, like into Otomani in some regions, they seem to have been still an independent province, a distinct ethnosocial unit possibly. Probably Gava came up with their elite taking over in Otomani with influences from the North? Or something along these lines, we probably will never know, but we can trace them back, at least in the cultures without cremation, which limits the scope.

 

[Johane Derite]

Bruzmi made an interesting observation about quite a few Sardinian samples of E-V13 in Sardinia:

"What's interesting to me is that on yfull for some reason ~10/27 E-V13 samples from Italy are from Sardinia. That certainly constitutes an over-representation of E-V13 in Sardinia, doesn't it?:

E-PF6784
E-BY6527
E-Y150909
E-FT79653
E-PH1173
E-Z21340
E-FGC11450
E-L241*
E-S2972*
E-S2978*



They all seem to be from Cagliari.

 

[Riverman]

Bruzmi made an interesting observation about quite a few Sardinian samples of E-V13 in Sardinia:

"What's interesting to me is that on yfull for some reason ~10/27 E-V13 samples from Italy are from Sardinia. That certainly constitutes an over-representation of E-V13 in Sardinia, doesn't it?:

E-PF6784
E-BY6527
E-Y150909
E-FT79653
E-PH1173
E-Z21340
E-FGC11450
E-L241*
E-S2972*
E-S2978*



They all seem to be from Cagliari.

Yes, but the vast majority comes from Cagliari and its because there was a major study done on Sardinians. With the same sample size for all of Austria, a lot more E-V13 and its diversity, including upstream results, would appear. For Sardinian thousands were tested, in Austria just about males or something for a full genome sequencing project. From these couple of males from Austria came up a whole group of upstream E-V13 matches.
So yes, Sardinia has its share of E-V13, even some interesting subclades, probably from Iron Age Italy, but if all of Italy or any other country in Central and CEE would be tested on the same level, the E-V13 tree would have gotten way more new branches.

What this study actually shows is that E-V13 is quite widespread, has a significant presence on Sardinia, with a fairly diverse representation of clades, and what could be made with more extensive testing throughout Europe for E-V13 and other clades, mtDNA also. Cagliari region seems to have received more outside admixture than some other regions of Sardinia.

 

[Johane Derite]

Yes, but the vast majority comes from Cagliari and its because there was a major study done on Sardinians. With the same sample size for all of Austria, a lot more E-V13 and its diversity, including upstream results, would appear. For Sardinian thousands were tested, in Austria just about males or something for a full genome sequencing project. From these couple of males from Austria came up a whole group of upstream E-V13 matches.
So yes, Sardinia has its share of E-V13, even some interesting subclades, probably from Iron Age Italy, but if all of Italy or any other country in Central and CEE would be tested on the same level, the E-V13 tree would have gotten way more new branches.

What this study actually shows is that E-V13 is quite widespread, has a significant presence on Sardinia, with a fairly diverse representation of clades, and what could be made with more extensive testing throughout Europe for E-V13 and other clades, mtDNA also. Cagliari region seems to have received more outside admixture than some other regions of Sardinia.

Sure, but if we can say that E-V13 was in south sardinia in the iron age, maybe we can speculate which tribes it might possibly be associated with there. The siculesi were in the south for example.


Areddu for ages has a hypotheses that there is an Albanoid substrate either in loans or directly in the Sardinian languages. Some of his words
are mistaken and actually loan words, but some are actually interesting (the plant names for example):

https://www.academia.edu/45589147/Paleo_sardinian_language_and_albanian_correlations

 

[Riverman]

Sure, but if we can say that E-V13 was in south sardinia in the iron age, maybe we can speculate which tribes it might possibly be associated with there. The siculesi were in the south for example.

Well, we don't really know, because they could have been from let's say Italy. If they were on Sardinia in the Iron Age, they might have been even wider spread. Probably different subclades came at different times. Without more ancient DNA from Sardinia and Italy we don't know. I would suspect the earliest E-V13 came Urnfield the earliest and Celts the latest to Italy, most likely in between, being associated with Hallstatt-related cultures in Northern Italy and Greek settlement in the South. But that's all in the dark.

Areddu for ages has a hypotheses that there is an Albanoid substrate either in loans or directly in the Sardinian languages. Some of his words
are mistaken and actually loan words, but some are actually interesting (the plant names for example):

https://www.academia.edu/45589147/Paleo_sardinian_language_and_albanian_correlations

I can't judge that, but then again, the E-V13 was in that sample very much concentrated on Caligari, which had more contacts and admixture, as the study proved as well. So it could have been colonists, merchants, conquerors, slaves from all parts of the Western Mediterranean. I think late Romans and Germanics like Vandals and Goths in particular are among the top spreaders for Cagliari E-V13.

 

[Johane Derite]

I can't judge that, but then again, the E-V13 was in that sample very much concentrated on Caligari, which had more contacts and admixture, as the study proved as well. So it could have been colonists, merchants, conquerors, slaves from all parts of the Western Mediterranean.

I think late Romans and Germanics like Vandals and Goths in particular are among the top spreaders for Cagliari E-V13.

I don't understand the reasoning. Looking at the TMRCAs they are middle bronze age to iron age tmrca.

If they were spread by germanics, vandals, goths and late romans, we would have some later branches, I think it is too unlikely that Goths, Vandals, Germanics, and Late Romans exclusively spread branches falling within these dates and none from their own times.

Here they are with dates:


E-S2972* TMRCA 3500 YBP
E-FGC11450 TMRCA 3400 YBP
E-PF6784* TMRCA 3100 YBP
E-PH1173 TMRCA 3100 YBP
E-Y150909* TMRCA 3000 YBP
E-FT79653* TMRCA 3000 YBP
E-BY6527 TMRCA 2900 YBP
E-S2978* TMRCA 2800 YBP
E-Z21340* TMRCA 2700 YBP
E-L241* TMRCA 2700 YBP

I added them up and divided by 10 to get a mean average: 3020 YBP

 

[Riverman]

I don't understand the reasoning. Looking at the TMRCAs they are middle bronze age to iron age tmrca.

If they were spread by germanics, vandals, goths and late romans, we would have some later branches, I think it is too unlikely that Goths, Vandals, Germanics, and Late Romans exclusively spread branches falling within these dates and none from their own times.

Here they are with dates:


E-S2972* TMRCA 3500 YBP
E-FGC11450 TMRCA 3400 YBP
E-PF6784* TMRCA 3100 YBP
E-PH1173 TMRCA 3100 YBP
E-Y150909* TMRCA 3000 YBP
E-FT79653* TMRCA 3000 YBP
E-BY6527 TMRCA 2900 YBP
E-S2978* TMRCA 2800 YBP
E-Z21340* TMRCA 2700 YBP
E-L241* TMRCA 2700 YBP

I added them up and divided by 10 to get a mean average: 3020 YBP

I don't said that original Germanics or Latins spread, but that the kind of Germanics and Romans which came to Sardinia might have. As you know, both Romans and Germanics did pick up a lot from Northern Italy and assimilated into their ranks, at least into their subordinate ones. So I'd assume it might have been in Northern Italy much longer, let's say since Hallstatt for example, but it was probably brought to the island by Romans and Germanics among others. My reasoning is that if it would have been there much earlier and wider spread, I would expect it to have been wider spread on Sardinia, one of the best sampled regions in all of Europe, too. But apparently, it is concentrated in the areas with more recent migrants and admixture.
This means I expect some of the clades you mentioned to have branch members in Northern Italy and the Alpine regions in particular.

Especially these are unlikely to have been brought there by the first expansion of E-V13 with Channelled Ware and Urnfield obviously:
E-BY6527 TMRCA 2900 YBP
E-S2978* TMRCA 2800 YBP
E-Z21340* TMRCA 2700 YBP
E-L241* TMRCA 2700 YBP

These are Hallstatt dates.

And the others might have an older TMRCA, but are unlikely to have been on Sardinia much earlier. Compare with this map again:
https://live.staticflickr.com/331/19533839060_e7fd3fb6fa_b.jpg

Golasecca might be interesting to look at, once more samples from it come in:

the timing of the Culture of Golasecca became clearer, divided into three periods from 900 to 380 BC. It ended with the Gallic invasion of the Po Valley in 388 BC.

The study of the so-called Lepontic inscriptions,^[13] written in the alphabet of Lugano utilized by Golaseccans of the 6th and 5th centuries BC, led Michel Lejeune (1971) to establish definitively the membership of the language conveyed by this writing to the family of Celtic languages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golasecca_culture

There are of course many other options, but this is one of them, even if others might find likelier ones.

 

[Hawk]

Bruzmi made an interesting observation about quite a few Sardinian samples of E-V13 in Sardinia:

"What's interesting to me is that on yfull for some reason ~10/27 E-V13 samples from Italy are from Sardinia. That certainly constitutes an over-representation of E-V13 in Sardinia, doesn't it?:

E-PF6784
E-BY6527
E-Y150909
E-FT79653
E-PH1173
E-Z21340
E-FGC11450
E-L241*
E-S2972*
E-S2978*



They all seem to be from Cagliari.

Did he really? Do you think we didn't saw those subclades before?

That guy is a charlatan and is a freak obsessed with E-V13. He has gone rampant trying to lump all E-V13 into a single place and explaining a Middle Age expansion from it which is stupid of course.

Like denying EIA Thracian leaks, Viminacium leaks, E-V13 presence in Greece.

It's obvious that his rampants are not of good-will, nor objectivity, and i am actually quite surprised you quote him.

 

[Riverman]

Did he really? Do you think we didn't saw those subclades before?

That guy is a charlatan and is a freak obsessed with E-V13. He has gone rampant trying to lump all E-V13 into a single place and explaining a Middle Age expansion from it which is stupid of course.

Like denying EIA Thracian leaks, Viminacium leaks, E-V13 presence in Greece.

It's obvious that his rampants are not of good-will, nor objectivity, and i am actually quite surprised you quote him.

To be fair, when I first saw the Sardinian samples I was surprised as well, because the diversity was higher than let's say in Austria for E-V13 at first look. But then I realised that they all came from Cagliari and that a lot of other haplotypes absolutely not common in Sardinia being present as well. When knowing the background of the Sardinian samples, namely the big study done on the region, it makes more sense and just shows that large sample sizes matter.

I mean there are clades in Sardinians which we haven't found in people of which we know they must have it in good numbers, like Hungarians, Austrians, Czech, Croats, Romanians and so on, yet they are in Sardinia. That is remarkable indeed and just shows that a quite diverse bunch of V13 guys entered the island, but all with a profile of the Iron Age largely. My best guess is still that an unknown Italian group carried them all, but we'll see.

Its so annoying to not have that kind of data for all regions

A new E1b1b sample from Germany, a warrior/mercenary which was hacked to death with his comrades (I1 and R1b each) of supposed Western European (old German?) origin:

https://i.ibb.co/1MK3BKr/Poster-sldner-1-CMM2-2.jpg

Posted by Waldemar on Anthrogenica:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...dieval-Moravia&p=795989&viewfull=1#post795989

Too bad they didn't type the yDNA, bur probably the data gets published and someone can take a look whether more can be said than just E1b1b...

 

[Hawk]

This is interesting, hence it makes harder to pinpoint E-V13 origin, but Gava should be the primary candidate.

The last example of a close relationship between the Žuto Brdo – Girla Mare and Gavafinds is demonstrated in the necropolis of Pećinein the vicinity of Kostolac (Figure 1, 1).19 The excavator D. Jacanović observed that in all undisturbed contexts (or stratigraphic units) the ŽutoBrdo – Girla Mare, Hügelgräber and Gava typicalceramic forms were found together.20 This particularly applies to the four cremated burials withincrusted and burnished pottery found togetherin same context. A similar mix was documentedin 13 pits, most probably dedicated to ritual atthis site. These instances caused some archaeologists to classify the last phase of the Žuto Brdo– Girla Mare culture in the territory of the IronGates as belonging to the period of Ha A1, whichaccording to chronology of M. Garašanin covers the transitional period between Late Bronze andEarly Iron Ages.

http://www.anubih.ba/godisnjak/god47/5-Aleksandar Kapuran.pdf

I wonder how will Iron Age Albania look like, i'll go on safer bet and suppose that Dardani-Enchelei-Pirusti-Taulanti should be the one carrying some E-V13.