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Thread: To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

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    Guys, it actually doesn't matter, please come back to real arguments.
    @Hawk: He doesn't even post here, and he will be proven wrong on all levels, because his comments on the spread of E-V13 just make absolutely no sense. The data is against him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    Huban/Aspurg is one of the most deranged users on these forums, he constantly admits to not being objective,

    In what way am I not objective? I am the one bringing actual data in far greater % than the others.


    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    one of those weakling types
    I am all for rational debate. But once things get irrational such as said individual or anyone not being rational, providing evidence.


    I would very much prefer if we had a little public debate, then some of you would learn first hand how "weak" I am.. Physically, strength wise I am quite gifted, and I never took steroids to pump paper muscles.. Mentally likewise as confirmed by DNA actually. I do have a bunch of favorable SNP's associated with higher performance.


    No wonder I have been a Nietzschean.


    What is really pathetic, Bruzmi objected to me posting analysis of Serbian historian of Vimnacium names based on her supposed "Milosevic" connections. You too objected to Garasanin for similar reason. She wrote than in 1976 actually and Garasanin too wrote much before the 1990.. I despise "nationalism" based on "victimology" because it is against the Nietzschean and Darwinist principles I adhere to.

    So whenever anyone complains about things that were done to his/her ancestors he is a weakling by definition.. Most Albanian nationalists are weaklings, most Serbian nationalists are weaklings.. In my book and in the book of those who think the way I do..

    I said to him that you unlike him are an example of someone who is willing to accept the facts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    that do school shootings and to see you have such a visceral reaction to Bruzmi ("a barking dog"), but casually accept this Huban/Aspurg guy as a "reasonable" commentary provider, all because he has convinced you of some non-existant J2b-l283 "consiparcy" agianst E-v13. This is so pathetic.

    He can "bark" with 80 % of nonsense in posts. He can't bite though, and as they say "the barking dog doesn't bite".. I put him in his place almost everywhere. Lastly he claimed most Polish E is not V13. I brought papers proving the opposite..


    It's just that Albanians have extra favor on some internet fora so they can get away with posting more nonsense..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    That's absolutely not true. That guy is a J2b2-L283 carrier who is closely associated with Rrenjet project and perhaps the other one as well. So, please don't bring his propaganda in this thread. His opinion, his barking like a dog in internet is not welcomed.
    One of his views sums him up well. When Daunian study was out he said that actually there were great many E-V13 in Daunians, it's just that they didn't test the slaves and underclass. Supposedly had they done that they would have found out that they were mostly E-V13.. But as they supposedly tested elites J-L283 is there..

    He vehemently opposes any notion of E-V13 having any relation to IE while vehemently supporting that J2b2 is 100 % IE.. Those Nuragics were actually of Illyrian origin...

    My job is to crush these E-V13 haters once and for all and beat them into submission, and I have been successful in general and upcoming data will put them where they belong. I don't care whether they are Bruzmi or some Serbian admins of poreklo for example, and I have history opposing them on this topic as well.

    NE Hungarian LBA and EBA samples will do exactly that..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    He can "bark" with 80 % of nonsense in posts. He can't bite though, and as they say "the barking dog doesn't bite".. I put him in his place almost everywhere. Lastly he claimed most Polish E is not V13. I brought papers proving the opposite..
    It wasn't just you, but 4 more knowledgeable posters, all provided him with actual papers and material, an explanation for the pattern and why he can't just sum up Polish flag results from YFull that easily. And he still keeps saying the same wrong things. Of course, that's annoying and complete nonsense, but let's come back to the topic in question. Otherwise other readers will just stop reading on and its, honestly, just wasted energy and space. He is already proven wrong and the more results will trickle in, the more ridiculous his or other people's views on the matter will become.
    On the other hand, 5 years ago many of the results which came in lately were not that easy to anticipate. There were just a few writers which came even close to how it really turned out. Regardless of whether I'm right in every aspect of my theory, but the general pattern of an rapid LBA-EIA expansion from one group and centre is now beyond doubt. Its actually even written in the recent studies, so the scientists which care for the subject already know - presumably from additional material we don't have as well.

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    I opened the thread on good faith, so i don't have any intention to derail it. In fact most of what we supposed in this thread was indirectly confirmed by the new paper.

    I insist that perhaps Illyri proprii dicti can be loaded with E-V13, like Ardiaei-Pirusti-Enchelei-Taulanti. With Enchelei being far more purer E-V13, while the other tribes more mixed.

    I know that Taulanti are related to Enchelei, and they used cremation urns in Epidamnus noted by archeologists that those were not brought by Greek colonizers but were native.

    Pirusti and Dardanii are noted to use cremation urns.

    As for Enchelei, the Early Iron Age Enchelei as noted by Pasko Kuzman cremated their deaths on a pyre. Latter Trebeniste Culture used also rectangular pits and eventually necropolises to bury their death.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    It's just that Albanians have extra favor on some internet fora so they can get away with posting more nonsense..
    Don't mix Albanians here, this is a very specific group which has nothing to do with mainstream Albanians. And are using Serbs as scape-goat to hide behind it and promote their agenda.

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    How did those middle bronze age E-V13 branches get to Sardinia. Some branches getting piggybacked later on by germanics, etc, can be feasible, but all of them, and all of them maintaining a mean Tmrca of ~3000 ybp, doesnt make sense.
    "As we have already stressed, the mass evacuation of the Albanians from their triangle is the only effective course we can take. In order to relocate a whole people, the first prerequisite is the creation of a suitable psychosis. This can be done in various ways." - Vaso Cubrilovic

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I opened the thread on good faith, so i don't have any intention to derail it. In fact most of what we supposed in this thread was indirectly confirmed by the new paper.

    I insist that perhaps Illyri proprii dicti can be loaded with E-V13, like Ardiaei-Pirusti-Enchelei-Taulanti. With Enchelei being far more purer E-V13, while the other tribes more mixed.

    I know that Taulanti are related to Enchelei, and they used cremation urns in Epidamnus noted by archeologists that those were not brought by Greek colonizers but were native.

    Pirusti and Dardanii are noted to use cremation urns.

    As for Enchelei, the Early Iron Age Enchelei as noted by Pasko Kuzman cremated their deaths on a pyre. Latter Trebeniste Culture used also rectangular pits and eventually necropolises to bury their death.
    The cremation tradition also matters, because E-V13 quite obviously is primarily connected with Gva-Holigrady culture and Belegis II-Gva, Fluted Ware horizon respectively. Whether they were even dominant in the whole Channelled Ware has to be shown, but inside of it they spread. The more Western Middle Danubian Urnfielders seem to have been from a different group and are unlikely to have been heavy in E-V13.
    The Pannonian region became just penetrated by E-V13 carriers on a larger scale by Thraco-Cimmerian and Basarabi-Hallstatt, as well as the succeeding groups which all had an East -> West impact primarily on the Pannonian-Northern Illyrian and Celtic areas. The Dardanians had in their Eastern archaeological group strong Belegis II influences, so there is a direct link.

    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    How did those middle bronze age E-V13 branches get to Sardinia. Some branches getting piggybacked later on by germanics, etc, can be feaaible, but all of them, and all of them maintaining a mean Tmrca of ~3000 ybp, doesnt make sense.
    We don't know yet! But it seems to have come in later, because like I wrote before, they are mostly restricted to Cagliari and came together with other Central European haplotypes. The typical transitional phase age is common in many V13 local populations and leads back to the massive early LBA-EIA expansion, of which, presumably, a lot of lineages died out, whereas others became later successful in various different people. The Channelled Ware and Basarabi unit was later broken.

    I still have a big problem with Northern Italy, because the frequency of E-V13 is not that high there, and we don't know for sure when and with which groups it came. Could have been as early as Thraco-Cimmerian horizon and Hallstatt influences, or as late as Germanics and even Germans and Balkan people. We'll see, there is just a need for way more data. There is also the option that some Southern Italian ones (Greco-Thracian and Balkan Medieval derived) came to the North, for individual cases it already seems like that.

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    With respect to "Mycenaean-like" autosomal results of Albanians, please keep in mind that archaeologically myceneans literally did have soldiers from west balkans and even italy serving for them:




    The tumulus of Mati, Albania are known for having many mycenaean weapons found in them, they are known as weapon loving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johane Derite View Post
    With respect to "Mycenaean-like" autosomal results of Albanians, please keep in mind that archaeologically myceneans literally did have soldiers from west balkans and even italy serving for them:

    The tumulus of Mati, Albania are known for having many mycenaean weapons found in them, they are known as weapon loving.
    That's how Channelled Ware people too first met Greeks and even lived among them probably, they were migrants, especially mercants and artisans. We know from the Barbarian ware that it preceded the downfall of Mycenaean Greeks. So first there were small groups of migrants, which even lived among these Bronze Age Greeks, then they did unite with their tribal brethren to overturn the Greek rule. Naue II swords and iron swords played an important role in this, when the Carpathian people (Channelled Ware) started their mass production. You can see that both the Naue II sword production and first iron swords had a massive centre in the Carpathians.

    I found a comment on Eupedia which might give us a hint for Sardinian clades:
    Quote Originally Posted by EvoAbruzzo
    Sards/Sardinians are their own distinct people and culture, with a very distinct genetic heritage and language, not considered part of the
    Italian ethnicities. In Sardinia itself, however, you need to be aware that there are historical ethnic minority enclaves which need to be
    taken into account in your analysis of genetic markers there - Catalans in Alghero, Genoese/Ligurians on the islands of Sant'Antioco and San Pietro off the southwest coast, and the Gallurese (who are mixed Corsican-Sardinian ancestry) in the northeast region of Gallura. Gallurese, like other Corsicans, have significant Italian (Tuscan and Ligurian) admixture, and their language is a dialect of Tuscan Italian. Thus, the amount of R1b, J1, J2, E-M81 and E-V13 ancestry in Sardinia is actually much lower among the specifically aboriginal, Sardinian-speaking Sards of central and southern Sardinia (Logudorese, Nuorese and Campidanese-speaking regions). J1, R1b and E-M81 are partially inflated because of the Catalan enclave, while J2, E-V13 and R1b are all made higher because of the Ligurian and Gallurese populations. The actual indigenous, Neolithic farmer-descended Sards have even higher I2a and G2 (Mesolithic HG and Neolithic Farmer markers) than reported here, when the Ligurian, Gallurese and Catalan minority populations are excluded.
    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml#maps

    That was also my idea of a North Italian origin, even though I couldn't be that concrete. I didn't even know Gallurese:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallurese_dialect

    Would be great to have as good of a sample from Corsica, ultimately Tuscany and other Northern Italian regions also, especially the former Ligurian.

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    Wait Aspurg is Huban?

    Now I feel bad for trashing some of his theories on Anthrogenica... Here I try to close an eye when I read some of his cringe statement regarding Albanians, since he is the devil I know, and I know he has some master-slave morality fantasies. Should have gone a bit easier on him on Anthro, at lest on the rhetorical side, had I known it was him.

    As long as you account for his biases, he does provide some useful tidbits of esoteric publications not easy to come by, so I value his posts, even the cringe ones.


    Sorry mate

    Edit: LMAO I was on page 5 when I made this reply, but at least I got something right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post

    No wonder I have been a Nietzschean.

    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Lol at Derite trying to gaslight us, everyone saw through that guy intentions through and through.

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    There are apparently inscriptions of the 'Albanoi' in ancient Dardania / North Macedonia believed to of been found after the Roman-Illyrian wars, could this testify that such population movements already occurred back then ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Wait Aspurg is Huban?

    Now I feel bad for trashing some of his theories on Anthrogenica...
    The only attempt of yours was to "prove" that Albanians have no Slavic auDNA admxiture or that it is very low. Literally nobody who knows about auDNA agrees with that so you cannot trash anything. And look how they model the Albanians in this new Viminacium study, as having 35 % of Slavic-like, which is way too high..

    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Here I try to close an eye when I read some of his cringe statement regarding Albanians, since he is the devil I know, and I know he has some master-slave morality fantasies.
    Everybody has them. You have them , that's why you want so much to be IE. In Bronze Age IE's were "masters", others were "slaves". At least in the areas where they were active..

    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Should have gone a bit easier on him on Anthro, at lest on the rhetorical side, had I known it was him.

    As long as you account for his biases, he does provide some useful tidbits of esoteric publications not easy to come by, so I value his posts, even the cringe ones.


    Sorry mate

    Edit: LMAO I was on page 5 when I made this reply, but at least I got something right.
    I've never done anything cringe like on this or other fora. I will openly clash with anyone. Here and there some of my statements are abit coded as otherwise I'd be banned. I got banned once on anthrogenica for going hard on that Bruzmi guy. But things I said (that were deleted) I stand by. And it was 100 % Nietzschean. Meaning was you are not going to make dominator hg a servile hg..

    I see many Albanians were banned from there, Derite, Hawk, Gjenetika and Rrenjet (Gjergj) admins..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pr0_ View Post
    There are apparently inscriptions of the 'Albanoi' in ancient Dardania / North Macedonia believed to of been found after the Roman-Illyrian wars, could this testify that such population movements already occurred back then ?
    There was a woman Delus daughter of Mucat from Albanopolis.. She was married to a man from Scupi where also some non-Illyrian and non-Thracian names were common. Delus is a name with Phrygian parallels and Mucat is very likely Thracian as compound names with Muca/Muco were extremely common or quintessential Thracian names. Recently I found some Mucanius, which points towards Mucat being Thracian. If not for the "t" at the end it would have been counted instantly as 100 % Thracian.

    So the oldest known inhabitant of Albanopolis born in mid 1st century AD was not an Illyrian, neither was his daughter, judging by their names.. Un-Illyrian in a sea of Illyrians as we do have names from various other places in Albanian Illyria from that period (Durrachium etc.).

    So Albanians have been avoiding Bessoi like a plague only to find an Albanoi Bessian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    There was a woman Delus daughter of Mucat from Albanopolis.. She was married to a man from Scupi where also some non-Illyrian and non-Thracian names were common. Delus is a name with Phrygian parallels and Mucat is very likely Thracian as compound names with Muca/Muco were extremely common or quintessential Thracian names. Recently I found some Mucanius, which points towards Mucat being Thracian. If not for the "t" at the end it would have been counted instantly as 100 % Thracian.

    So the oldest known inhabitant of Albanopolis born in mid 1st century AD was not an Illyrian, neither was his daughter, judging by their names.. Un-Illyrian in a sea of Illyrians as we do have names from various other places in Albanian Illyria from that period (Durrachium etc.).

    So Albanians have been avoiding Bessoi like a plague only to find an Albanoi Bessian.
    Bessoi were a partially Hellenized tribe that lived South of the Jirecek line. Bessoi could of never of possibly been proto-Albanian based on this, which is considered to of developed north of the Jirecek. Albanian also received their Christian teachings in Latin, this is evident by Christian Albanian teachings which are largely Latin loan words too. Bessoi were also mentioned in Bulgaria supposedly in 900 AD (if I am not mistaken) while Albanian dialect split had already occurred in 400 AD or so.

    I certainly would not judge the ethnic origin of people based on a few personal names. These people lived in each others lands and picked up names from
    each other. Eastern Kosovo and Macedonia was also inhabited by Thracians for example.

    The Albanoi were mentioned as an Illyrian tribe by all ancient sources I know of. Dardani were mentioned as Illyrian by Strabo. The Roman-Illyrian wars
    could of triggered the Albanoi expansion east wards. Anyway, Alb- names in Illyrian lands are common so I wouldn't be too sure that Albanians came from this tribe anyway.

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    These slavs are so pathetic. They have been going at it for almost half of a decade to try to disprove any sort of connection to Albanians and Illyrians. They don't even have enough gut to admit that J-L283 is related to Illyrians, instead hypothesizing some stupid Sardinian theory. Albanians are anything but Illyrians, even with good enough evidence so far. It's funny how obsessed they are about both modern Albanians and the ancient Illyrians, I'd expect these slavs to pay more time, energy and effort into studying their own ancient peoples, namely the ancient slavs. Maybe since they realize the ancient slavs were a bunch of buffalo-pee drinking barbarians, they have no interest in such inquiries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    I opened the thread on good faith, so i don't have any intention to derail it. In fact most of what we supposed in this thread was indirectly confirmed by the new paper.

    I insist that perhaps Illyri proprii dicti can be loaded with E-V13, like Ardiaei-Pirusti-Enchelei-Taulanti. With Enchelei being far more purer E-V13, while the other tribes more mixed.

    I know that Taulanti are related to Enchelei, and they used cremation urns in Epidamnus noted by archeologists that those were not brought by Greek colonizers but were native.

    Pirusti and Dardanii are noted to use cremation urns.

    As for Enchelei, the Early Iron Age Enchelei as noted by Pasko Kuzman cremated their deaths on a pyre. Latter Trebeniste Culture used also rectangular pits and eventually necropolises to bury their death.
    There were Illyrian groups which had more Urnfield component. As one goes farther to the North they get stronger. For example Breuci were largely Urnfield derived.

    The problem here is that E-V13 is associated with the very Eastern Urnfield, extreme eastern end of Urnfield. And this upcoming Gava E-L539 guy was quite different from the whole Urnfield C.European - up until W.Hungary range. These were Urnfielders that were the bulk of Urnfield influence in Illyrian areas and they surely carried also various R-L51 clades.

    I'll look into that Trebeniste culture and whether they might show some Urnfield connection.

    The only Urnfield people who reached territory of Albania were actually some Gava groups, not sure about their strength though. And they actually reached precisely that area where the Enchelei, Dassareti were located.

    Albania has very low R-L51 while Pannonian Illyria has high R-L51 diversity (some of these are Celtic also but some look Pannonian)..

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS9981/

    Sample from Montenegro is of Moračani Bogićevci tribe who have even tradition of coming from the Hoti area, not sure how reliable that is considering this clade wasn't found there. You see the upstream clades in N.Croatia and Slovenia, this clade is very likely local in the area and not Celtic, Roman.. Though Z70 is quite Italian..

    Also
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y4353/

    Herzegovina Vlach clan with an Albanian name, Vlachs Zotović (and Ugarci) belong to this clade. There are many R-Y4353 clades around Balkans. For example this Bulgarian but he is very distant to Zotovići. Also in SW Romania one R-Y4353 was found again very distant from the others. And also there is a Greek R-Y4353 clade also unalerted to the others. Interestingly this clade is the cause of the very elevated R1b on Crete. Some were saying this clade cold be Celtic but then again there are so many different Y4353 on the Balkans..

    I know in NE Hungary there is R-L51 Gava as well. I wonder whether this clade might be related to that as there are several Russian clades also..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    The only attempt of yours was to "prove" that Albanians have no Slavic auDNA admxiture or that it is very low. Literally nobody who knows about auDNA agrees with that so you cannot trash anything. And look how they model the Albanians in this new Viminacium study, as having 35 % of Slavic-like, which is way too high..



    Everybody has them. You have them , that's why you want so much to be IE. In Bronze Age IE's were "masters", others were "slaves". At least in the areas where they were active..



    I've never done anything cringe like on this or other fora. I will openly clash with anyone. Here and there some of my statements are abit coded as otherwise I'd be banned. I got banned once on anthrogenica for going hard on that Bruzmi guy. But things I said (that were deleted) I stand by. And it was 100 % Nietzschean. Meaning was you are not going to make dominator hg a servile hg..

    I see many Albanians were banned from there, Derite, Hawk, Gjenetika and Rrenjet (Gjergj) admins..
    You are cool mate . Its the small nuances in your writing, that give some things away, which I don't want to get into.

    I did enjoy Nietzsche when I was a teenager, and I do admit he did contribute some valuable insight into relative morality, but if you do not find some/most of his later stuff cringe, than you would not understand my pov.

    About IE, not sure I care much, albeit it is cool. Still autosomaly, me as well as you are more farmer like than IE.

    Not sure about the bans was not that active on anthro at the time to see the show. Must have been a spectacle. I am surprised I have not been banned there yet. But then again Eupedia has accustomed me to dodging bait so...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    These slavs are so pathetic. They have been going at it for almost half of a decade to try to disprove any sort of connection to Albanians and Illyrians. They don't even have enough gut to admit that J-L283 is related to Illyrians, instead hypothesizing some stupid Sardinian theory. Albanians are anything but Illyrians, even with good enough evidence so far. It's funny how obsessed they are about both modern Albanians and the ancient Illyrians, I'd expect these slavs to pay more time, energy and effort into studying their own ancient peoples, namely the ancient slavs. Maybe since they realize the ancient slavs were a bunch of buffalo-pee drinking barbarians, they have no interest in such inquiries.
    Slavs in the Balkans are basically like the Muslim immigrants that migrate to West Europe. Soon they too will take over West Europe and start wars against
    the indigenous people and claim themselves as the original inhabitants. That's basically what has happened in the Balkans when you look at all the historical
    evidence.

    Native Balkan people today like Aromanians don't even have their own home country and are at the brink of extinction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pr0_ View Post
    Native Balkan people today like Aromanians don't even have their own home country and are at the brink of extinction.
    Tbh they kind of deserve it, you must be a super weak ethnicity if you get absolutely ultra assimilated in every single country you have colonies/immigrants in. At least the Arbresh, Arvanites etc. spoke Albanian for a long ass time, up until modernity (where most minority languages are dying).

  22. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pr0_ View Post
    Bessoi were a partially Hellenized tribe that lived South of the Jirecek line. Bessoi could of never of possibly been proto-Albanian based on this, which is considered to of developed north of the Jirecek. Albanian also received their Christian teachings in Latin, this is evident by Christian Albanian teachings which are largely Latin loan words too. Bessoi were also mentioned in Bulgaria supposedly in 900 AD (if I am not mistaken) while Albanian dialect split had already occurred in 400 AD or so.

    I certainly would not judge the ethnic origin of people based on a few personal names. These people lived in each others lands and picked up names from
    each other. Eastern Kosovo and Macedonia was also inhabited by Thracians for example.

    The Albanoi were mentioned as an Illyrian tribe by all ancient sources I know of. Dardani were mentioned as Illyrian by Strabo. The Roman-Illyrian wars
    could of triggered the Albanoi expansion east wards. Anyway, Alb- names in Illyrian lands are common so I wouldn't be too sure that Albanians came from this tribe anyway.
    There are archeological records of Bessoi from 2n, 3rd, 4th century AD. They were located in the Shop area, modern Serbian-Bulgarian border zone as well as NE Macedonia. Take a look at this map. Black dots are Bessi archeological finds from late Antiquity. White are historical and epigraphic evidence concerning the Bessi. They match each other..

    They lived on higher altitudes of 500 m above sea level and above and their culture was radically different from the mainstream Romanized culture. They cremated dead and placed remains in Kernoses. These were surely the non-Latin speaking Bessoi. What you refer to are some earlier mentions of the Bessoi from the time of Herodotus.. But these are Roman-era non-Latin speakers. Bessian language is attested as alive still in 570 AD, after the death of Justnian.. Just based on geography, Albanians should have some people descended of these..

    Linguistics wise Albanian doesn't quite fit with Thracian, it fits better with Illyrian but there is something off about Albanian. There are reconstructed Illyrian words, I know one of them that actually has relatives in Dacian and Thracian and all evidence points towards this word being totally mainstream Illyrian word in usage, ditto for Thracian yet Albanian uses something totally different not only that but there are words denoting similar things, all of them non-Latin and Albanian still doesn't use the Illyrian-Thracian word.. Things like these make things hard for Illyrian-Thracian connection.

    If Bessoi were some mainstream Thracian people, I doubt Albanian could descend of these.. I think there were some other language groups around that are poorly known, Paeonian, original Dardanian. Dardanians in Late Iron Age were Illyrians but their Illyrianisation is a Mid Iron Age phenomenon via Glasinac related people arriving from the West. Prior to that they have Thracian influence, and prior to Thracian they have something else that is likely related to proto-Paeonians..

    We have evidence that in Early Iron Age proto-Thracians descended upon Balkans and they were very heavy with E-V13. Prior to that there were some other groups living in Central/Eastern Balkans. It's possible R-Z2705 is related to one of these and this is the most Albanian hg of them all..

    I am not really denying or affirming in some concrete way Albanians are this or that. But I research here primarily the E-V13. And it seems E-V13 were the original Thracians, and not proto-Albanians, because proto-Albanian is not a Thracian proper language.. You have people believing V13 and proto-Albanian are very related or J-L283 and proto-Albanian are closely related, I don't believe that at all. I think proto-Albanian is clearly R-Z2705 related and most people agree on this..

  23. #148
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    Basarabi Culture chariot pulled by water birds.



    Similar to Dubovac Zuto Brdo/Garla Mara Middle Bronze Age/Late Bronze Age chariot pulled by water birds.



    I think considering the approximate territory they have been living, it's likely E-V13 was a survivor after the downfall of Vinca-Turdas Culture, some metalworkers retreating to safer Alpine/Carpathian buffer zone.

    The same motive was encountered at Battle of Delta, Mycenean ships modified by the water-bird motive, exactly the same time archeological evidence points movement from people around Danube heading South.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspurg View Post
    Whats the source for the map?

  25. #150
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    Strictly speaking this thread is more about Late Bronze Age to Early Iron Age transition.

    So don't bring up Albanians or Slavs. There is enough threads about that topic.

    In several instances we brought up E-V13, but the connection between the topic and E-V13 has become more and more cemented like the quote from Viminacium paper:

    A local origin is supported by a high frequency of Ychromosome lineage E-V13, which has been hypothesized to have experienced a Bronze-to-IronAge expansion in the Balkans and is found in its highest frequencies in the present-day Balkans \. We interpret this cluster as the descendants of local Balkan Iron Age populations living at Viminacium, where they represented an abundant ancestry group during the Early Imperial andlater periods (~47% of sampled individuals from the 1-550 CE)

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