To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[Southpaw]

Especially the flame-shaped spearheads seem to be a tell-tale for G�va. I found out, also thanks to other users on Anthrogenica, that the burial used for G25 HUN_LBA is considered G�va but its an irregular burial of a female. Interestingly, both the irregular Kyjatice and G�va sample in G25 (HUN_LBA) have a strong tendency towards WHG and are in between F�zesabony and the J2b-cluster of Pannonian-Illyrians. So they are more Northern, but not as Northern (any more?) as F�zsesabony, presumably because they mixed with local older Otomani, Vatya and Mako elements. Mako being the strongest shifted towards WHG.
So G�va is definitely in the game, going by that and I really want to know the context of the samples in the British paper. Hope there is something provided.

What do you think about this?

Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age Central Dalmaain the Sphere of Interacon between the CarpathianBasin, the Apennine Peninsula and the Aegean

Sabine Pabst


Abstract


The region of Central Dalmatia in the eastern Adriatic and its hinterland represents the starting point of the article. Even though the current state of Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age sources and research in the region between the Neretva River in the south and the Krka River in the north is unfavourable for complex investigations,the material remains suggest remarkable supra-regional connecons. In the Late Bronze Age, strong Carpathianinuences can be recognized in northwestern Balkan as well as in central Dalmatian weaponry and costumes.Many of the original metal shapes from Carpathian Basin are widespread also in parts of the Balkans, Italy andGreece. New supra-regional comparative analyses of the typology, chronology, distribution and origin of several Late Bronze Age metal artefacts confirm the thesis of a wide-ranging spread via the coastal regions of centralDalmaa and the Adriac Sea up to central Italy, the southern Balkans and the Aegean.


In particular, the contactswith the western/northwestern Greek and Aegean area were not only one-way from north to south. Conversely,one can also observe several western/northwestern Greek and Mycenaean influences in the Late Bronze Age ofthe eastern Adriatic and its hinterland. These phenomena can be interpreted as a part of extensive trade andexchange contacts between Mycenaean society and the local communies from the western and eastern sides of the upper Adriatic (perhaps also including smaller population movements).


The communicaton routes partly changed at the transiton from the Late Bronze Age to the Early Iron Age in the 11th/10th centuries BCE. Ea rlyIron Age artefacts from the northwestern Balkans and central Dalmatia display particular connections to the north-western Greek and southern Albanian-Macedonian area. At the same time, the trans-Adriatic contacts with central Italy became stronger and developed a different character. It can be assumed that now a larger number of emigrants deriving from various Carpathian and northwestern Balkan regions moved abroad via the coastal area of central Dalmatia and the Adriatic Sea.

https://www.academia.edu/43656713/L...n_Basin_the_Apennine_Peninsula_and_the_Aegean

 

[Southpaw]

If i am not wrong, the first language spreaders of Proto-Illyrians/Proto-Thracians has to be either Yamnaya R1b-Z2103 or some Bell-Beaker/CW R1b clade.

Then as secondary factors which will rise in prominence would be J2b2-L283 and E-V13 in their respective regions, why not? Y-DNA J1 specific-clades seems to be major Proto-Semitic lineage, despite the Afro-Asiatic language having close ties to E-M35 subclades. I2a2-Dinaric for Slavic languages as well, I1 for North-Germanic so on and so forth.

Based on this language tree, chances are slightly higher for R1b-Z2103 than CWC/Bell Beaker R1b subclade: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...m-VIDEO/page13?p=634584&viewfull=1#post634584

 

[Riverman]

I'm pretty sure that the context is rather Epi-Corded into Unetice. The connection of F?zesabony to Uneticians is too obvious, also in their values. A possible scenario might be a Mokrin-like population, dominated by a variety of Neolithic-Copper Age and Yamnaya haplogroups migrated North, fused with locals and Epi-Corded groups and within this sphere E-V13 rose to prominence and came back with G?va. In the F?zesabony cluster, most lineages are dead or nearly dead, or if alive, comparatively rare. By the looks of it, its like within this North Pannonian sphere, E-V13 became the last man standing, exactly when they rose to power at the transition from Carpathian Tumulus to Kyjatice-G?va/South Eastern Urnfield. Like if some dominant E-V13 clan took over. This would also explain why there are some rather rare and old lineages, possibly, of E-V13, which probably didn't participate in this pivotal founder effect.
But its now quite clear that E-V13 was just one element, paternally, in a largely Copper Age-Yamnaya environment. In the same clusters are R-Z2103, I2, J2a, G2, H - and E-V13. But then some clans, probably exactly the founders of G?va, largely eliminated the others, before moving out even much beyond the borders of this group's sphere during Urnfield and Basarabi-Hallstatt.

 

[Riverman]

What do you think about this?

That's a fantastic article, with some faults, but still. Most interesting and important was the description how the tell-tale flame-shaped spearheads spread and related Carpathian spearhead forms. I finally have a direct connection of Channelled Ware people to the Ligurians!

The hoard inventory from Ro?ko Polje also includes further types of bronze spearheads. Particularly noteworthy are some examples with a flame-shaped blade (Fig. 11,1).46 The spearheads with a flat flame-shaped blade already have a long tradition in the Carpathian Basin. Here, spearheads of the classical flame shape were most frequently found in hoards of the beginning of the Late Bronze Age (Bz D/Ha A1 or the 13th/12th centuries BCE).47 Further Late Bronze Age examples (Fig. 12 [black symbols]) came to light in settlements from the northwestern Balkans as well as from northern Italy. In the Carpathian Basin and the northwestern Balkans, a longer time span for this spear shape must be assumed. Here, the shape still sporadically occurs in hoards of the period Ha B1 or in the 10th century BCE (Fig. 12 [white triangles]). From the region of central Dalmatia mainly known are single finds of flame shaped spearheads without exact dating.48 In central and southern Italy the flame-shaped spearheads come, without exception, from Early Iron Age graves and cemeteries whose origins must be searched in the 10th century BCE (Fig. 12 [white circles]). Thus, we can observe a connection in time between the Carpathian-northwestern Balkan and the central as well as southern Italian items in the 10th century BCE.49 This mainly suggests contacts across the central Adriatic Sea, bypassing northeastearn Italy.

Note how well this timing would fit with the Sardinian-Genuese known subclades! Most important is always whether there was a local production.

The pointed out trans-Adriatic contacts are supported by the distribution of another original Carpathian spear shape, which is characterized by its distinctive ribbed socket (Fig. 13). The main distribution area of these spearheads comprises the Carpathian Basin as well as bordering regions of the northwestern and eastern Balkans. It is a very long-lasting spear shape that in the northeastern Carpathian Basin appeared already at the end of the Early Bronze Age and continued in different types and variants up to the period Ha B1 or the 10th century BCE.55 In areas west of the Balkan-Carpathian region, only a few pieces reached the Alps. The area between Garda Lake and Po Plain, which is otherwise rich in Late Bronze Age metal artefacts, is free of finds. On the other hand, however, single pieces of local production occur in Final Bronze Age and Early Iron Age find contexts in Tyrrhenian Italy.56 In the Carpathian Basin as well as in the northern Balkans the blades of these spearheads are frequently designed in the form of laurel leaves.57 A single spearhead with a distinctive ribbed socket and a laurel leave-shaped blade is recorded in the surrounding area of Sinj in central Dalmatia (Fig. 13,1). A central Italian example from an Early Iron Age grave find of Veio-Quattro Fontanili58 in southern Etruria finds its best prototypes in northwestern Balkan spearheads with a special narrow flame-shaped blade and a distinctive ribbed socket. In particular, such pieces came to light in the cave of ?kocjan59 in western Slovenia and in Mostarsko Blato in Bosnia-Herzegovina (Fig. 13,2), which again points to cultural contacts across the central or upper Adriatic.

The centre of the distribution is Belegis II-G?va:

https://ibb.co/D8ymDL7

Flame shaped spearheads are one of the primary signals for Channelled Ware peoples migrations and influences. The map is disproportionate insofar, as further up we find those spearheads too, even in Transcarpathia. The Vojvodina area just produced more, not earlier, and being better researched imho.

https://www.academia.edu/43656713/Late_Bronze_Age_and_Early_Iron_Age_Central_Dalmatia_in_the_Sphere_of_Interaction_between_the_Carpathian_Basin_the_Apennine_Peninsula_and_the_Aegean


That the possibly Illyrian groups have single finds means they acquired it or G?va elements were already among them. But more important is, whether such spearheads were also produced locally or buried in hoards. And interestingly, that's primarily the case in Northern Italy it seems.

 

[Southpaw]

Is the flame-shaped spearheads so specific to Gava really?

I mean it could be an influence as well, other cultures adopting it. But i would agree if other elements are present in package as well.

 

[Riverman]

Is the flame-shaped spearheads so specific to Gava really?

I mean it could be an influence as well, other cultures adopting it. But i would agree if other elements are present in package as well.

Let's put it that way, you find these spearhead types primarily within G?va and groups which being influenced by them. Note also, that the cult of flame and iron seems ot have been essential to Urnfield in general, but the iron-producing G?va in particular. They also had a specific type of swords and the ceramic and if you look at the distribution maps, these overlap largely, but not everywhere and always the same way. There are of course regional formations and zones of trade and influence.
But especially this burnished black ceramic, red in the inside, with channels/fluting and flame shaped spears, together with some other symbolism (sun, sun-rays etc.) are very common in the G?va zone and in combination rare outside. So they had a cult of iron & flames/sun imho.

 

[Riverman]

That's a very important publication with many interesting aspects of the topic:

https://1lib.at/book/3044792/9cbe5d

One of the conclusions is that the two main contributors to Psenichevo were Channelled Ware and Incrusted Pottery groups, with an overall dominance of the latter, because they being in the right context, while Incrusted Ware was cut off, which doesn't allign well with the wider spread Daco-Thracian relations of Basarabi. And of course the few samples we got yielded only different yDNA so far.

 

[Southpaw]

I would never guessed that what 23andme wrote about E-V13 spreading from the Balkans toward Central Europe following the river paths during Early Bronze Age was right, and it turns they were very likely right indeed.

 

[Southpaw]

An overview of timeline-cultures in Balkans.

 

[Archetype0ne]

An overview of timeline-cultures in Balkans.

Very useful. Thanks for sharing.

Would be very cool if some of those excavated Maliq samples were ever published. Last I read some of them have been excavated since the 60s, and deteriorated since...

 

[Riverman]

An overview of timeline-cultures in Balkans.

I think its important to stress especially two movements:
1st in the MBA Otomani and related Pannonian groups moved North/North East. F?zesabony being of particular importance in this context, but also the local groups at the Upper Tisza with which they merged.
2nd G?va-Holigrady expanded massively and related Channelled Ware groups much beyond what's being shown. I would especially connect the area of Hallstatt A finds with the "Vojvodina group" with this general expansion, since its basically Belegis II-G?va to Mediana down.

Note how these are separate movements, one from the Middle Danubian TC/Urnfield groups and Glasinac (= Illyrian-related), the other from G?va and Belegis II-G?va/Channelled Ware (= Daco-Thracian). They both reached the areas of Kosovo, Macedonia and Greece, with some splinters moving beyond, sometimes probably together, both to the Western Adriatic coast of Italy and as the Sea Peoples even beyond.

 

[Southpaw]

Very useful. Thanks for sharing.

Would be very cool if some of those excavated Maliq samples were ever published. Last I read some of them have been excavated since the 60s, and deteriorated since...

But Maliq samples are in pipeline if i am not wrong? The Lazaridis South-East European paper will publish them. I am not sure though, let's see.

I think its important to stress especially two movements:
1st in the MBA Otomani and related Pannonian groups moved North/North East. F�zesabony being of particular importance in this context, but also the local groups at the Upper Tisza with which they merged.
2nd G�va-Holigrady expanded massively and related Channelled Ware groups much beyond what's being shown. I would especially connect the area of Hallstatt A finds with the "Vojvodina group" with this general expansion, since its basically Belegis II-G�va to Mediana down.

Note how these are separate movements, one from the Middle Danubian TC/Urnfield groups and Glasinac (= Illyrian-related), the other from G�va and Belegis II-G�va/Channelled Ware (= Daco-Thracian). They both reached the areas of Kosovo, Macedonia and Greece, with some splinters moving beyond, sometimes probably together, both to the Western Adriatic coast of Italy and as the Sea Peoples even beyond.

So:

1. Dalmatian Neolithic moving up north to Pannonia and Carpathians during Late Neolithic/Chalcolithic.
2. Central Balkans all the way, Armenochori-Bubanj-Hum up to Ottomani, Vinca-Turdas metal-workers survivors.
3. Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus-Culture(sub-section of them, only the group who migrated in Carpathians) from Southern Germany during Middle Bronze Age, initially in Carpathians then deeper in Balkans.

These are the options in the table.

 

[Southpaw]

Previously readmi-lim.
They appear in EA 101:4, 33; 105:27; 108:38; 110:48(?); lll:2l(?);and 126:63.Hencken (1968: 568-70, 625-8) has suggested that there may be a connection between the Sea Peoplesand the European urnfield cultures. Apart from the evidence from Hama (see below), and the ÔnorthernbronzesÕ, the ships of the Sea Peoples portrayed at Medinet Habu recall the ÔbirdboatsÕ of the urnfield art(Hencken, 1968: 516,
fig.
478a-b) and also an undated boat-shaped pendant of bronze from the SomesRiver in northern Rumania (Gottlicher, 1978: Taf. 33: 439) in that theyalsocarry bird-head insignia atstern and stern. If the Sea Peoples included elements originating in the urnfield cultures one wonders howsuch inland peoples could have taken to the sea with such ease. Hencken (627-8) offers an duminatinphistorical parallel:The Vandals had long been inland migrants in Europe when they crossed over from Spain
to
Africa in
AD
429. But a mere eight years later, in 437, Vandal pirates were scouring the Mediterranean and attack-ing the coasts of Sicily. In 440 Gaiseric, the Vandal king, fitted out a powerful fleet to attack not onlySicily but Sardinia, and in 455 he sailed to Italy and plundered Rome. His fleet commanded the wholeMediterranean and by 468 was attacking Greece. Native North Africans are sometimes mentioned asaccompanying him, and they may well have taught seamanship to their masters. But if the Vandals couldtake to the sea
so
quickly andsoeffectively, there is little need to doubt that the urnfielders could havedone the same.

https://www.academia.edu/4594906/The_Ships_of_the_Sea_Peoples

Somes is near Tisza River, probably within the territory of Gava-Channeled Ware Culture.

 

[Riverman]

Somes is near Tisza River, probably within the territory of Gava-Channeled Ware Culture.

Its firmly in later G?va territory and close to the former princely and miner centres with huge burial mounds, some of the richest of their time. The eponymous sites for the preceding cultures of Suciu de Sus and Lăpuș are South East of it. That's part of the formative zone for the G?va core, just compare with the post from above:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threa...kan-case/page9?p=635020&viewfull=1#post635020

Lăpuș had some specific elements, but I mentioned it before because it developed into G?va and it was a huge Bronze Age centre, which was however largely abandoned later, as if a good portion of the local population migrated to somewhere else. It was a metallurgical centre with a hierarchical, stratified society and very important for its time.

The whole area being connected through various waters and tributaries, which end up in the Lăpuș -> Someș -> Tisza -> Danube. They are all interconnected:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8c/Raul_Lapus.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lăpuș_(river)

 

[Southpaw]

One of the E-V13 samples from British study is from Slovakian Iron Age.

 

[Southpaw]

2 E-V13 are from Hallstatt La Tene Culture Western Hungary, Sopron, and 1 from Central Bohemia Hallstatt La Tene, very interesting. The other one is from Vekerzug Iron Age Slovakia.

 

[Southpaw]

Worth noting that there is also 1 E-M35 very likely E-V13 from La Tene, Southern France i think from French Neolithic paper.

So, 4 E-V13 from Hallstatt La Tene, 2 from Western Hungary, 1 from Southern France, 1 from Central Bohemia Czech. And 1 E-V13 from Vekerzug Hallstat, which might have connection with La Tene Hallstatt.

 

[Riverman]

2 E-V13 are from Hallstatt La Tene Culture Western Hungary, Sopron, and 1 from Central Bohemia Hallstatt La Tene, very interesting. The other one is from Vekerzug Iron Age Slovakia.

Vekerzug = Thraco-Scythians, local G?va/Basarabi descendents being picked up/acculturated/transformed by Scythians. Do you have the IDs?

 

[Riverman]

Worth noting that there is also 1 E-M35 very likely E-V13 from La Tene, Southern France i think from French Neolithic paper.

So, 4 E-V13 from Hallstatt La Tene, 2 from Western Hungary, 1 from Southern France, 1 from Central Bohemia Czech. And 1 E-V13 from Vekerzug Hallstat, which might have connection with La Tene Hallstatt.

Going by the current distribution, it was always clear to me that the Basarabi-Hallstatt connection must be real and Hallstatt (especially Fr?g) into Alpine-Danubian Celts must have lots of E-V13, both from Hallstatt transmission and by assimilating local Daco-Thracian and Pannonian groups.

 

[Southpaw]

Vekerzug = Thraco-Scythians, local G�va/Basarabi descendents being picked up/acculturated/transformed by Scythians. Do you have the IDs?

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[TD="align: left"] PASS [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] no red flags [/TD]

[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] I18832 [/FONT][/TD]
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[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] S-1352; inv. 1396; P3869 [/FONT][/TD]
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[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] 650-500 BCE [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] Slovakia_IA_Vekerzug [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] Komárno, Chotín IA [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] Slovakia [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] 47.808164 [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] 18.218719 [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] 1240K [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] 1 [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] 0.179246 [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] 190124 [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] M [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] n/a (no relatives detected) [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] E-V13 [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] E1b1b1a1b1 [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] U5a2b1b [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] [0.938,0.984] [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] 0.125 [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] 0.381 [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] n/a (<200 SNPs) [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] ds.half [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"][FONT=Calibri (Body)] S14465.E1.L1 [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="align: left"] PASS [/TD]
[TD="align: left"] no red flags [/TD]