To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[Oroku Saki]

I agree, one must not forget the various Tell Cultures in Pannonian_Carpathian basin were the last Neolithic people of Europe still resisting the IE newcomers, even the original Etruscans are believed to come from Urnfield cultures of these varieties. One of Tell Cultures or some West-Carpathian/East Alpine spinoff.

Yes, though they were R1b heavy Etruscans might still derive from there ultimately. Their pottery certainly had such connections. I just again took a look at leaked diagrams from Pannonian study or more like Carpathian basin study "Early Bronze Age families in Northwestern Carpathian basin" is the name. And some very Southern Mokrin/Maros samples from the earlier study cluster with these East Hungarian EBA-MBA samples. These are Minoan like Mokrin outliers bce at Anthrogenica was mentioning, and they seem to have relatives in EBA-MBA E.Hungary. Why I say E.Hungary. Well I have successfully identified every other culture in the study except that cluster. And the only two remaining sites belonged to Nyirseg and Ottomany culture sites.. it has a group of two higher Steppe influenced people, I suspect this is where the EBA V13 sample is, as it has just slightly more Steppe than Mokrin.

Only I a year ago analyzed the leaked information from this study.. I know literally every site that has been tested in this study. Including most Y-DNA. I went to great lenghts just to find our where the older E sample was from. The only way was eliminating all sites that are impossible..

If V13 is found there Bulgarian or Balkan Neolithic makes no sense to begin with.. I just do not know whether these very Southern people are Nyirseg or Ottomany.. Something tells me V13 is Nyirseg and J2a Minoan like is Ottomany, that something being the age, E sample is slightly older and Nyirseg should be older.

 

[Polska]

Yes, though they were R1b heavy Etruscans might still derive from there ultimately. Their pottery certainly had such connections. I just again took a look at leaked diagrams from Pannonian study or more like Carpathian basin study "Early Bronze Age families in Northwestern Carpathian basin" is the name. And some very Southern Mokrin/Maros samples from the earlier study cluster with these East Hungarian EBA-MBA samples. These are Minoan like Mokrin outliers bce at Anthrogenica was mentioning, and they seem to have relatives in EBA-MBA E.Hungary. Why I say E.Hungary. Well I have successfully identified every other culture in the study except that cluster. And the only two remaining sites belonged to Nyirseg and Ottomany culture sites.. it has a group of two higher Steppe influenced people, I suspect this is where the EBA V13 sample is, as it has just slightly more Steppe than Mokrin.

Only I a year ago analyzed the leaked information from this study.. I know literally every site that has been tested in this study. Including most Y-DNA. I went to great lenghts just to find our where the older E sample was from. The only way was eliminating all sites that are impossible..

If V13 is found there Bulgarian or Balkan Neolithic makes no sense to begin with.. I just do not know whether these very Southern people are Nyirseg or Ottomany.. Something tells me V13 is Nyirseg and J2a Minoan like is Ottomany, that something being the age, E sample is slightly older and Nyirseg should be older.

Any idea when this Pannonia study will be published??

 

[Oroku Saki]

Any idea when this Pannonia study will be published??

No, but I thought of asking. Some data was published already as part of another study.

 

[1337_]

J2b-L283 is Proto-Illyrian. The Albanian genome is made up of different sorts of people mainly a fusion of Thracians, Central Balkanites and Illyrians. It is delusional to assume that Albanians who in general, neglecting regional differences here, are dominated by E1b-V13 and claim that these folks and/or R1b-Z2103 Bryges/Paeonians did not leave their mark on our autosomal DNA, 1337/xz1333.

The author I quoted , Noel Malcolm, suggests Proto-Albanian is from Dardanian that lived in the mountains of Northern Albania (Especially Kukes / Tropoja area) , Kosovo (Especially Western Kosovo) and Eastern Montenegro, also Macedonia. But like he said, it's just a theory. He claims Mat - Shkumbin theory does not explain Eastern Latin in Albanian, while some claim this was mostly Albanian into Romanian.

 

[Riverman]

Yes, though they were R1b heavy Etruscans might still derive from there ultimately. Their pottery certainly had such connections. I just again took a look at leaked diagrams from Pannonian study or more like Carpathian basin study "Early Bronze Age families in Northwestern Carpathian basin" is the name. And some very Southern Mokrin/Maros samples from the earlier study cluster with these East Hungarian EBA-MBA samples. These are Minoan like Mokrin outliers bce at Anthrogenica was mentioning, and they seem to have relatives in EBA-MBA E.Hungary. Why I say E.Hungary. Well I have successfully identified every other culture in the study except that cluster. And the only two remaining sites belonged to Nyirseg and Ottomany culture sites.. it has a group of two higher Steppe influenced people, I suspect this is where the EBA V13 sample is, as it has just slightly more Steppe than Mokrin.

Only I a year ago analyzed the leaked information from this study.. I know literally every site that has been tested in this study. Including most Y-DNA. I went to great lenghts just to find our where the older E sample was from. The only way was eliminating all sites that are impossible..

If V13 is found there Bulgarian or Balkan Neolithic makes no sense to begin with.. I just do not know whether these very Southern people are Nyirseg or Ottomany.. Something tells me V13 is Nyirseg and J2a Minoan like is Ottomany, that something being the age, E sample is slightly older and Nyirseg should be older.

Otomani was a mixture of local Hatvan and Nyirseg with incoming Southern influences (these Minoan-like samples?) and inciming Northern ones (Kostany-Mierzanowice, R1a). We have this J2a Kyjatice sample, but apparently for the autosomal profile haplogroup doesn't mean a lot, it just shows that some patrilinear movement did happen. Like the R-Z93 is as or rather more Southern than the E-V13. So the whole autosomal argument is very shallow without the context. There could have been all kind of patrilinear founder effects during the upheavals at the start of the EIA, especially coming from Channelled Ware of course.

Nyirseg is a perfect candidate, because we see a lot of traditions in it for the first time which can be seen later in Suciu de Sus, G?va and historical Thracians and Dacians. I even read authors speculating about elements of the pottery in Suciu de Sus reminding them of Nyirseg, but the great gap made them call it "superficial". Probably it wasn't if Nyirseg groups did survive within the larger Otomani sphere.

The most characteristic feature of Suciu de Sus is that was a deviating Otomani branch, and they deviated in the direction of Nyirseg with some of their customs and in the direction of the neighbouring Wietenberg group also.

Therefore Nyirseg would be a perfect match. Almost "too good to be true".

 

[Riverman]

Psenichevo and the Danubian Fluted Ware has two potential routes, one from the West, through Belegis II-G?va, one from Lapus II-G?va East and then down. If we assume the latter, which some authors did, because of the specific pottery found in Thrace and Troy primarily, which looks in some respect like coming from Lapus directly even, Babadag would be the more Northern and less Southern admixed group of the same patrilinear stock. They should be less Aegean-shifted in comparison or if they are as Aegean shifted, this would be the profile of South Eastern Channelled Ware.
There are earlier samples available, which predate all those Thracians and some would be just a couple of generations of Channelled Ware settlers. Here is e.g. a suggestion for testable remains from a pit, just like in Kapitan Andreevo, dated to the 8th-7th century BC:

Similar habits can be found in the same geographical area at the Geto-Dacians, in the 2nd BC - 1st AD centuries and they may be subsequent to some changes in the religious beliefs.

Basically the whole Channelled Ware area could be tested:

Pits containing human remains and separate human bones were also reported at Babadag, Garvan, Niculitel, Revarsarea (Tulea county), Satu Nou, Capidava, Cernavoda, Rasova and Izvoarele (Constanta county). All of them belong to an area ascribed to the Babadag culture. Similar discoveries were notified in contemporaneous cultures to the Babadag one in Moldavia, Ukraine, Transylvania, Muntenia, and Bulgaria.

So it's not like there are no samples for the EIA. Bulgaria was rather late and is a fringe region, the whole sphere can be sampled!

https://www.academia.edu/1186524/A_...re_discovered_in_pre_colonial_level_at_Orgame

At least 6 males, in this pit alone! From this site in Eastern Romania:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgame

And this is just one of many sites from Babadag, containing first irregular and pit and later more regular burials. If assuming a Channelled Ware origin, and there is no doubt for Babadag and Channelled Ware, the Babadag group should be closer to the source. They are also older, so this adds up.

 

[mount123]

The author I quoted , Noel Malcolm, suggests Proto-Albanian is from Dardanian that lived in the mountains of Northern Albania (Especially Kukes / Tropoja area) , Kosovo (Especially Western Kosovo) and Eastern Montenegro, also Macedonia. But like he said, it's just a theory. He claims Mat - Shkumbin theory does not explain Eastern Latin in Albanian, while some claim this was mostly Albanian into Romanian.

Well, Dardania is a meeting point of more than two cultural complexes and many toponyms especially in the East are considered to be of Thracian-Mysian origin. There clearly was also Illyrian influence mediated by Glasinac-Mati, no doubt about that.

The areas that you've mentioned are not Dardanian territory. Also, Illyrian queen Teuta did not fight Dardanians for no reason.

 

[Hawk]

I am also willing to consider E-V13 is after all Pelasgian which during the Bronze/Iron Age turmoil moved North/East and mixed with Proto-Thracians?

But, it just doesn't work like that. Impossible to have been there since EBA. Bulgarians don't have such basal E-V13 clades.

 

[Riverman]

I am also willing to consider E-V13 is after all Pelasgian which during the Bronze/Iron Age turmoil moved North/East and mixed with Proto-Thracians?

But, it just doesn't work like that. Impossible to have been there since EBA. Bulgarians don't have such basal E-V13 clades.

Not possible. It will be Thracian (Daco-Thracian/Proto-Thracian). I have no doubt about that.

Just think about the size of E-V13 in ancient and modern DNA and the models we can derive from that. It can't have been a small group of people, its rather like Germanic, Slavic or the like - at its height. And the samples and positions we got all say Thracian/Eastern Urnfield.

The following conditions have to be met to finally wrap this up:
- Getting earlier Bronze Age samples. The Pannonian results could really help with this, they are key.
- Getting samples from the pit burials mentioned, to get the full picture of the Thacian world after the Channelled Ware expansion.

If only those pit sites mentioned in the text quoted above would be sampled, we would know enough. Because if all/most yield some E-V13, it would be the Thracian koine. There are really dozens of sites for a critical time frame, just come generations/centuries after Channelled Ware. These Thracian samples are 500 years after! We shouldn't forget that and how autosomals can change in that time.

E-V13 was bigger than J-L283, just look at the range of J-L283 we got by now! And then it should hide somewhere in a defeated group which had no expansion at all like Pelasgians? Or in South Eastern Bulgaria, where it was beaten up by numerous waves of intruders? That doesn't work out.

 

[Hawk]

I played around with the samples, used this model as source:

Western_Balkans_EBA:2237:I18752,0.135449,0.145221,0.027907,0.00646,0.024312,0.003347,0.00423,0.003,0.009408,0.015126,0,0.012739,-0.019772,-0.010046,-0.002172,-0.014452,-0.016037,0.004307,0.002263,-0.006503,0.001996,0.004081,-0.003081,-0.001325,-0.003233
Western_Balkans_EBA:2245:I19032,0.135449,0.159438,0.021119,-0.005491,0.017234,-0.010319,0.011751,0,0.009613,0.034807,-0.015427,0.005545,-0.012785,-0.031103,-0.002986,-0.005436,0.032726,-0.006968,0.001383,0.016633,-0.011854,0.000247,-0.003821,0.017472,-0.024429
Western_Balkans_EBA:2194:I5080,0.129758,0.15436,0.035826,-0.007429,0.039084,-0.00502,0.000235,0.004384,0.007363,0.029158,0.002761,0.01109,-0.017096,-0.00578,-0.011401,-0.003845,0.001695,-0.003421,0.004651,-0.003377,-0.003619,-0.001731,-0.007272,0.000482,-0.006826
Aegean_Balkans_EBA:2132:I14916,0.110408,0.167562,-0.030924,-0.089148,0.024928,-0.043228,-0.002115,-0.011769,0.017998,0.062871,-0.004709,0.006294,-0.009812,0.001514,-0.037866,0.004375,0.026859,-0.003547,0.015587,-0.006628,-0.001123,0.005564,-0.003081,0.010604,-0.01449
Aegean_Balkans_EBA:2134:I15571,0.125205,0.164516,-0.008674,-0.0646,0.023697,-0.02761,0.003525,-0.006692,0.004295,0.050479,0.009094,0.012589,-0.015461,0.001376,-0.012758,-0.009944,0.008475,0.000887,0.010056,-0.008379,-0.013726,0.012613,-0.005546,0.005181,-0.003233
Aegean_Balkans_EBA:2136:I16709,0.130897,0.177718,-0.004148,-0.060078,0.026466,-0.027889,0.01081,-0.004846,0.002659,0.036629,0.002598,0.020831,-0.018731,0.013625,-0.036237,-0.020817,-0.005867,0.002407,0.001885,-0.007629,-0.018093,0.011252,-0.002835,0.000723,0.000239
Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA:4321:I14166,0.132035,0.170609,0.022627,-0.072352,0.070167,-0.034861,-0.00987,-0.000923,0.041314,0.079273,0.004872,0.005545,-0.018731,-0.006331,-0.03868,0.007027,0.030379,0.003674,0.017723,-0.005253,-0.003993,0.009521,-0.007518,-0.010965,-0.003233
Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA:4315:I14160,0.122929,0.178733,0.023381,-0.071383,0.065551,-0.035698,-0.00517,0.003231,0.043564,0.076721,0.002111,0.006594,-0.024083,0.001927,-0.03298,0.006232,0.034813,0.002154,0.008422,0.002501,0.005241,0.010758,-0.00037,-0.008796,-0.010059
Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA:BGR_Varna_C,0.125205,0.168578,0.017348,-0.054587,0.053548,-0.03263,0.006345,-0.006461,0.030065,0.067245,0.005521,0.00015,-0.017839,0.00055,-0.033523,-0.009679,0.016689,0.001774,0.013701,-0.001876,-0.00861,0.007914,-0.009983,-0.010001,-0.002036
Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Tisza_LN,0.123498,0.1802565,0.029038,-0.069768,0.069551,-0.032909,-0.0105755,0.0053075,0.0435635,0.07581,0.0081195,0.006669,-0.0165015,0.001514,-0.0370515,-0.0116015,0.0033245,0.00038,0.0094275,-0.010505,-0.0038685,0.002164,-0.0056695,-0.0062055,-0.003054
Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECA,0.1252053,0.1790717,0.0271527,-0.0718137,0.062678,-0.0321653,-0.0040733,0.0033843,0.052631,0.0798803,0.0094727,0.0130883,-0.0236373,0.0048627,-0.0342013,-0.010298,0.0116477,0.003674,0.0091343,-0.017258,-0.0107727,0.0078313,-0.0076413,-0.0137367,0.000519
Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECA_contam,0.133173,0.187873,0.036204,-0.074936,0.071398,-0.040718,0.002115,-0.004384,0.034155,0.06925,0.008444,0.008093,-0.017542,0.012937,-0.024701,-0.014717,-0.014864,-0.000507,-0.00088,-0.012506,0.006738,0.008285,-0.015652,-0.017834,-0.008263
Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECHA,0.12862,0.17264,0.025644,-0.07106,0.069859,-0.043786,-0.00235,-0.001846,0.048268,0.07581,0.003735,0.006894,-0.018731,-0.000688,-0.033794,-0.008618,0.029076,-0.000127,0.013324,0.001626,-0.005241,0.006801,-0.002711,-0.013134,0.000958
Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Vinca_MN,0.120368,0.1774638,0.008768,-0.0873715,0.0611652,-0.042182,-0.0045238,-0.0019612,0.04387,0.082553,0.0060895,0.0133008,-0.0201435,-0.0020642,-0.039189,-0.0094468,0.023078,0.0027558,0.0115012,-0.0086292,-0.0093587,0.00711,-0.0033278,-0.0027412,-0.0093108
Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_CZE_early,0.1244463,0.1218633,0.0657443,0.0725673,0.013233,0.025658,0.0050917,0.0059997,-0.0139073,-0.0218683,-0.0048177,0.0029473,-0.0109513,-0.01601,0.0245657,0.0061433,-0.0093877,4.23e-05,-0.0027657,0.0030013,0.000416,-0.0009063,-0.0022593,0.002691,-0.0034727
Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_FRA_C,0.132604,0.1340495,0.0605275,0.0385985,0.041854,0.0107375,-0.00047,0.006346,0.008897,0.0126655,-0.00203,0.012889,-0.015089,-0.0157575,0.0143865,0.0117345,-0.007888,0.0023435,-0.0016965,0.001751,-0.0004365,0.0058115,-0.0009245,-0.001265,-0.00467
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_BGR,0.113823,0.123895,0.034318,0.040375,0.003693,0.012829,0.003055,0.001615,-0.02127,-0.014579,0.005846,0.003897,-0.014271,0.00867,0.011401,-0.013524,-0.005998,0.000253,-0.000628,-0.004752,0.004742,0.005441,-0.002588,-0.000482,0.001197
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_UKR,0.119514,0.0873355,0.0452545,0.1106285,-0.028313,0.042531,0.00846,-0.003461,-0.0521535,-0.0707985,0.0002435,0.004421,-0.0043115,-0.0202305,0.0323015,0.0107395,-0.0002605,-0.011529,-0.005531,0.002376,-0.0028075,0.0004325,-0.009367,0.0192795,0.0031135
West_Asian:ARM_Areni_C,0.1115468,0.1327805,-0.0316782,-0.0281818,-0.0278512,-0.005508,0.0022325,-0.0073265,-0.0236735,-0.0068795,0.007064,0.0064068,-0.0066528,-0.0040598,-0.0060735,-0.0100438,-0.0098115,0.0026922,0.0009428,-0.006941,-0.002901,0.0025965,0.0014175,-0.0031932,0.0047898
West_Asian:TUR_Ikiztepe_LC,0.1093966,0.1521039,-0.0491094,-0.078166,-0.0101898,-0.0275171,0.004883,-0.0010769,-0.0284969,0.0206331,0.0077223,0.0062279,-0.0184669,0.0088997,-0.0163318,-0.0136716,0.0115028,0.0030546,0.007402,-0.0093239,-0.0019826,-0.0020198,-0.0019309,-0.00565,0.0034328
Baltic:Baltic_LVA_MN,0.1293028,0.0706808,0.1523568,0.1945116,0.047578,0.0589576,-0.0050764,0.006323,0.0208204,-0.0559464,0.0052288,-0.0185234,0.0298512,-0.0275518,0.027931,0.036197,0.0010952,-0.0001266,-0.0074412,0.03104,0.0268278,0.0172372,-0.0087258,-0.0600808,0.0013894
Corded_Ware_Horizont:Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL,0.09675,0.12491,0.073539,0.051034,0.033545,0.022311,0.0047,-0.015922,-0.012067,-0.014032,-0.006008,0.006894,0.010109,-0.020368,0.016829,0.002519,-0.022556,0.012289,0.012318,0.007379,-0.001747,0.014715,0.006162,0.013255,-0.000239
Corded_Ware_Horizont:Corded_Ware_CZE_late,0.1243381,0.11519,0.0537665,0.0826572,0.0107711,0.0293367,0.0037937,0.0021098,-0.0216991,-0.0327678,-0.0030621,0.000999,-0.0050616,-0.0141751,0.0261876,0.0048553,-0.0076927,-5.43e-05,0.00249,0.0066758,0.0004218,0.0008183,0.0034568,0.0135073,-0.0004163

And i can concurr that Eastern Balkans Neolithic/Chalcolithic are needed, but, the distance is still big, if i use Vatya/Mako or some Urnfielder samples which might have had Y-DNA I2/WHG admixture it doesn't seem to work for them, but if i use earlier Neolithic then that average pops almost in every of them. It looks to me, like a Neolithic population with low WHG and low EHG was in vicinity of Carpathians? Who knows.

Target: E-V13_Rozovo_320:I19500 Distance: 2.1372% / 0.02137172
33.4	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
26.8	West_Asian
20.2	Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
11.4	Corded_Ware_Horizont
8.2	Western_Balkans_EBA

Target: E-V13_357:I20180 Distance: 1.8915% / 0.01891470
45.0	Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
23.2	West_Asian
22.2	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
9.6	Corded_Ware_Horizont

The only E-V13 sample which doesn't require Pannonian_Carpathian Neolithic:

Target: E-V13_358:I20181 Distance: 2.7669% / 0.02766900
40.0	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA
19.8	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
16.4	Yamnaya
11.2	Western_Balkans_EBA
10.0	West_Asian
2.6	Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic

Target: R1a_362:I20186 Distance: 2.0441% / 0.02044127
42.0	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
20.4	Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
13.0	West_Asian
12.2	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA
6.4	Western_Balkans_EBA
4.4	Corded_Ware_Horizont
1.6	Yamnaya

Target: E-V13_359:I20183 Distance: 1.7986% / 0.01798591
35.6	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
22.0	Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
18.8	Western_Balkans_EBA
11.2	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA
9.2	Yamnaya
3.2	Baltic

Target: E-V13_361:I20185 Distance: 1.8699% / 0.01869861
27.2	Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
21.8	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
19.2	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA
16.6	West_Asian
5.8	Western_Balkans_EBA
5.0	Yamnaya
4.4	Corded_Ware_Horizont

Notice how the earlier Q1a sample from Kapitan Andrevo MBA-LBA doesn't even need Pannonian_Carpathian

Target: Q1a_351:I20182 Distance: 1.9869% / 0.01986866
39.4	West_Asian
28.2	Corded_Ware_Horizont
12.0	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA
9.6	Western_Balkans_EBA
8.2	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
2.6	Yamnaya

What i also realized is that, these samples do seem to lean and prefer this:

Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Vinca_MN,0.120368,0.1774638,0.008768,-0.0873715,0.0611652,-0.042182,-0.0045238,-0.0019612,0.04387,0.082553,0.0060895,0.0133008,-0.0201435,-0.0020642,-0.039189,-0.0094468,0.023078,0.0027558,0.0115012,-0.0086292,-0.0093587,0.00711,-0.0033278,-0.0027412,-0.0093108

I am convinced, it should be definitely in the proximity of Northern Serbia/South-East Hungary/East Hungary/Transylvania. And the sample is even older than those Chalcolithic samples yet it leans more toward it.

I do believe it's an approximate location around, they could easily retreat in Transylvania as archaeological records indicate.

 

[Hawk]

It's interesting how the E-V13 sample from Croatia was found near Zagreb, where Gava-Urnfielders had more influence.

Partly contemporary to the new Cruceni-Belegiš culture with which it was contiguous in south, the Tumular Culture (Hügelgräberkultur) from the Pannonian Plain would contribute to the completion of this culture. Beside the tumular influences, we have to remind those that come from the Urnfield area with which the Cruceni-Belegiš culture got contemporary. The contacts with the Zagreb23 and Csorva24 groups - considered also the southern vanguard of the Gava25 culture - followed after the first contact with Virovitica group.
Partly contemporary to the new Cruceni-Belegiš culture with which it
was contiguous in south, the Tumular Culture (Hügelgräberkultur) from the
Pannonian Plain would contribute to the completion of this culture. Beside
the tumular influences, we have to remind those that come from the
Urnfield area with which the Cruceni-Belegiš culture got contemporary.
The contacts with the Zagreb23 and Csorva24 groups - considered also the
southern vanguard of the Gava25 culture - followed after the first contact
with Virovitica group.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325087393_The_Relations_of_the_Cruceni-Belegis_Culture_with_the_Zuto_Brdo-Garla_Mare_Culture

I5724 382-206 calBCE (2235±20 BP, PSUAMS-3094) HRV_IA Sv. Križ Brdovečki Croatia E-Y16721 E1b1b1a1b1a14~


But, it could also be part of the so called Thraco-Cimmerian influx.

 

[Riverman]

Could be even later Vekerzug into La Tene Celts in that time frame.

 

[Hawk]

One thing i must note, Eastern Balkans/Bulgarian Neolithic origin of E-V13 looks not convincing for me for several reasons. I associate E-L618 strictly with Cardium-Pottery Culture because this is the only Neolithic Culture which has Natufian-like/Iberomaurusian-like influence. And the actual E-V13 mutation (if true) was found in Spain, though i was dissapointed when the E-L618 in South-East Spain EBA was negative for E-V13 because it goes against the hypothesis that the Spanish Early Neolithic sample was E-V13 positive, indirect assumption i mean not conclusive.

But, we are there still, we haven't found the exact origin and how it came to dominate the Thracian-related world, also will we find in classical Greece? Classical Greece was not sampled, who knows.

 

[1337_]

Well, Dardania is a meeting point of more than two cultural complexes and many toponyms especially in the East are considered to be of Thracian-Mysian origin. There clearly was also Illyrian influence mediated by Glasinac-Mati, no doubt about that.

The areas that you've mentioned are not Dardanian territory. Also, Illyrian queen Teuta did not fight Dardanians for no reason.

[FONT=&quot]The main area of the Balkan interior where a Latin-speaking population may have continued, in both towns and country, after the Slav invasion, has already been mentioned: it included the upper Morava valley, northern Macedonia, and the whole of Kosovo. It is, therefore, in the uplands of the Kosovo area (particularly, but not only, on the western side, including parts of Montenegro) that this Albanian-Vlach symbiosis probably developed. [/FONT][71][FONT=&quot] All the evidence comes together at this point. What it suggests is that the Kosovo region, together with at least part of northern Albania, was the crucial focus of two distinct but interlinked ethnic histories: the survival of the Albanians, and the emergence of the Romanians and Vlachs. One large group of Vlachs seems to have broken away and moved southwards by the ninth or tenth century; the proto-Romanians stayed in contact with Albanians significantly longer, before drifting north-eastwards, and crossing the Danube in the twelfth century. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]This is more a speculation than a conclusion; and it is not meant to exclude other areas in the Albanian (or Montenegrin) mountains further to the west, given that 'Dardania' was, essentially, a tribal division, not a linguistic one. Once again it must be emphasized that such ancient history can have no implications for modern politics. Nevertheless, the idea that the Illyrian Dardanians were ancestors of the Albanians may be of some sentimental interest to Kosovo Albanians today.[/FONT]

We are talking about the Roman period here. Whose to say Illyrians/Dardanians and some other Illyrians like the Albanoi that did not become Romanized did not live in the mountains of Northern Albania, Western Kosovo, Macedonia etc ?


North-Eastern Albania was Dardanian possibly before Roman period as was Northern Macedonia, wasn't also part of Montenegro and Sandzak ? Also didn't Dardanian kingdom hold Albania ?

 

[1337_]

Queen Teuta fought them just like she fought other Illyrians and Illyrian tribes fought each other. Why are you trying to spread baseless theories of ancient ''nationalistic conflicts'' supposedly ? Except for Eastern Dardania, it is dominated by Illyrian element. Malsia e Gjakoves or Tropoja in North-Eastern Albania area was probably Dardanian territory or close by

The region was inhabited by Illyrian tribes. Archaeological evidence found in the area, such as castles or tumuli show that the area was populated since the ancient time.^[7] The region lies in the geographical span of the Dardani tribes.

 

[Hawk]

It's interesting how the E-V13 sample from Croatia was found near Zagreb, where Gava-Urnfielders had more influence.



I5724 382-206 calBCE (2235±20 BP, PSUAMS-3094) HRV_IA Sv. Križ Brdovečki Croatia E-Y16721 E1b1b1a1b1a14~


But, it could also be part of the so called Thraco-Cimmerian influx.

Regarding this sample (the horseman burial he is referring is earlier, in Iron Age, the actual sample is from classical age but descended from these Southern Urnfield people, in Zagreb a spinoff of Gava people were there from LBA).

[FONT=var(--nova-font-family-sans-serif)][COLOR=var(--nova-color-grey-800)][FONT=var(--nova-font-family-sans-serif)]Sveti Križ Brdovečki (Holy Cross near Brdoveć) is a village on a hill at a height of 310m above sea level, located 30km west of Zagreb, near the Croatian-Slovenian border, directly above the confluence of the Sutla and Sava rivers. In October 2001, Adam Tursan came across a bronze helmet while digging foundations for a garage next to his house in Tursanova Street, which is located at the above site. The foundations dug for the garage by workmen measured 6 × 4 meters. The spot where the helmet was found was in the center. Other grave goods were discovered after cleaning the area. Other than skeletal remains of the deceased, the grave contained the skeleton of a horse, items of horse equipment (a bit, phalerae), several pieces of pottery, a rectangula bronze belt buckle, and several other bronze and iron finds that were removed together with the surrounding earth and that cannot yet be described with certainty. The (possible) weapons, horse equipment, and costume accessoires indicate the prominent social status of the deceased, buried in the Hallstatt D phase. Although it is not possible to fully evaluate the value and richness of the objects found in the grave prior to their final restoration and analysis, it can be statet with certainty that this is a find whose importance and significance will place Sv. Križ among the most prominent Hallstatt sites in Croatia.[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=var(--nova-font-family-sans-serif)]


[/FONT][/COLOR]




https://www.researchgate.net/public...rave_of_iron_age_at_sv_Kriz_Brdovecki_Croatia

The area investigated covers today’s administrative unitsof Zagreb and Karlovac county. The site (fig. 2) is locatedright in the middle of the present day town of Velika Gorica,which was formerly a suburb of Zagreb. It is 10 km awayfrom Zagreb and lies on the territory south of the river Sava.In prehistory it was exposed to different cultural influences,both from the Balkans as well as Pannonia and the EasternAlpine region. Velika Gorica and Dobova lie on the naturalpass from the lower to the upper Sava valley. Dobova is only37 km linear distance from Velika Gorica. This territory islocated between the mountains Medvednica, Žumberak andSamoborsko gorje and we have evidendce for several hillfort sites from the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age ontheir slopes like Susedgrad, Sv. Križ Brdovečki and BreganaKosovac.

https://www.austriaca.at/0xc1aa5576 0x002debef.pdf

It's definitely the southern vanguard of Urnfield Culture. I find it uncanny so far the connection whenever Eastern Urnfield appears E-V13 must appear there.

 

[Hawk]

+ I don't think Aspar is right. i adjusted and re-run the model:

Western_Balkans_EBA:2237:I18752,0.135449,0.145221,0.027907,0.00646,0.024312,0.003347,0.00423,0.003,0.009408,0.015126,0,0.012739,-0.019772,-0.010046,-0.002172,-0.014452,-0.016037,0.004307,0.002263,-0.006503,0.001996,0.004081,-0.003081,-0.001325,-0.003233
Western_Balkans_EBA:2245:I19032,0.135449,0.159438,0.021119,-0.005491,0.017234,-0.010319,0.011751,0,0.009613,0.034807,-0.015427,0.005545,-0.012785,-0.031103,-0.002986,-0.005436,0.032726,-0.006968,0.001383,0.016633,-0.011854,0.000247,-0.003821,0.017472,-0.024429
Western_Balkans_EBA:2194:I5080,0.129758,0.15436,0.035826,-0.007429,0.039084,-0.00502,0.000235,0.004384,0.007363,0.029158,0.002761,0.01109,-0.017096,-0.00578,-0.011401,-0.003845,0.001695,-0.003421,0.004651,-0.003377,-0.003619,-0.001731,-0.007272,0.000482,-0.006826
Aegean_Balkans_EBA:2132:I14916,0.110408,0.167562,-0.030924,-0.089148,0.024928,-0.043228,-0.002115,-0.011769,0.017998,0.062871,-0.004709,0.006294,-0.009812,0.001514,-0.037866,0.004375,0.026859,-0.003547,0.015587,-0.006628,-0.001123,0.005564,-0.003081,0.010604,-0.01449
Aegean_Balkans_EBA:2134:I15571,0.125205,0.164516,-0.008674,-0.0646,0.023697,-0.02761,0.003525,-0.006692,0.004295,0.050479,0.009094,0.012589,-0.015461,0.001376,-0.012758,-0.009944,0.008475,0.000887,0.010056,-0.008379,-0.013726,0.012613,-0.005546,0.005181,-0.003233
Aegean_Balkans_EBA:2136:I16709,0.130897,0.177718,-0.004148,-0.060078,0.026466,-0.027889,0.01081,-0.004846,0.002659,0.036629,0.002598,0.020831,-0.018731,0.013625,-0.036237,-0.020817,-0.005867,0.002407,0.001885,-0.007629,-0.018093,0.011252,-0.002835,0.000723,0.000239
Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA:BGR_Varna_C,0.125205,0.168578,0.017348,-0.054587,0.053548,-0.03263,0.006345,-0.006461,0.030065,0.067245,0.005521,0.00015,-0.017839,0.00055,-0.033523,-0.009679,0.016689,0.001774,0.013701,-0.001876,-0.00861,0.007914,-0.009983,-0.010001,-0.002036
Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA:BGR_Middle_C:I2431,0.120652,0.171624,0.027153,-0.064923,0.052317,-0.026774,0.001175,0.002308,0.032519,0.062689,0,0.010191,-0.013677,-0.001101,-0.034744,-0.017634,-0.001173,0.005068,0.009804,-0.017008,-0.009733,0.008656,-0.010969,-0.015785,-0.002634
Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECA_contam,0.133173,0.187873,0.036204,-0.074936,0.071398,-0.040718,0.002115,-0.004384,0.034155,0.06925,0.008444,0.008093,-0.017542,0.012937,-0.024701,-0.014717,-0.014864,-0.000507,-0.00088,-0.012506,0.006738,0.008285,-0.015652,-0.017834,-0.008263
Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECHA,0.12862,0.17264,0.025644,-0.07106,0.069859,-0.043786,-0.00235,-0.001846,0.048268,0.07581,0.003735,0.006894,-0.018731,-0.000688,-0.033794,-0.008618,0.029076,-0.000127,0.013324,0.001626,-0.005241,0.006801,-0.002711,-0.013134,0.000958
Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Vinca_MN,0.120368,0.1774638,0.008768,-0.0873715,0.0611652,-0.042182,-0.0045238,-0.0019612,0.04387,0.082553,0.0060895,0.0133008,-0.0201435,-0.0020642,-0.039189,-0.0094468,0.023078,0.0027558,0.0115012,-0.0086292,-0.0093587,0.00711,-0.0033278,-0.0027412,-0.0093108
Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_CZE_early,0.1244463,0.1218633,0.0657443,0.0725673,0.013233,0.025658,0.0050917,0.0059997,-0.0139073,-0.0218683,-0.0048177,0.0029473,-0.0109513,-0.01601,0.0245657,0.0061433,-0.0093877,4.23e-05,-0.0027657,0.0030013,0.000416,-0.0009063,-0.0022593,0.002691,-0.0034727
Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_FRA_C,0.132604,0.1340495,0.0605275,0.0385985,0.041854,0.0107375,-0.00047,0.006346,0.008897,0.0126655,-0.00203,0.012889,-0.015089,-0.0157575,0.0143865,0.0117345,-0.007888,0.0023435,-0.0016965,0.001751,-0.0004365,0.0058115,-0.0009245,-0.001265,-0.00467
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_BGR,0.113823,0.123895,0.034318,0.040375,0.003693,0.012829,0.003055,0.001615,-0.02127,-0.014579,0.005846,0.003897,-0.014271,0.00867,0.011401,-0.013524,-0.005998,0.000253,-0.000628,-0.004752,0.004742,0.005441,-0.002588,-0.000482,0.001197
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_UKR,0.119514,0.0873355,0.0452545,0.1106285,-0.028313,0.042531,0.00846,-0.003461,-0.0521535,-0.0707985,0.0002435,0.004421,-0.0043115,-0.0202305,0.0323015,0.0107395,-0.0002605,-0.011529,-0.005531,0.002376,-0.0028075,0.0004325,-0.009367,0.0192795,0.0031135
West_Asian:ARM_Areni_C,0.1115468,0.1327805,-0.0316782,-0.0281818,-0.0278512,-0.005508,0.0022325,-0.0073265,-0.0236735,-0.0068795,0.007064,0.0064068,-0.0066528,-0.0040598,-0.0060735,-0.0100438,-0.0098115,0.0026922,0.0009428,-0.006941,-0.002901,0.0025965,0.0014175,-0.0031932,0.0047898
West_Asian:TUR_Ikiztepe_LC,0.1093966,0.1521039,-0.0491094,-0.078166,-0.0101898,-0.0275171,0.004883,-0.0010769,-0.0284969,0.0206331,0.0077223,0.0062279,-0.0184669,0.0088997,-0.0163318,-0.0136716,0.0115028,0.0030546,0.007402,-0.0093239,-0.0019826,-0.0020198,-0.0019309,-0.00565,0.0034328
Baltic:Baltic_LVA_MN,0.1293028,0.0706808,0.1523568,0.1945116,0.047578,0.0589576,-0.0050764,0.006323,0.0208204,-0.0559464,0.0052288,-0.0185234,0.0298512,-0.0275518,0.027931,0.036197,0.0010952,-0.0001266,-0.0074412,0.03104,0.0268278,0.0172372,-0.0087258,-0.0600808,0.0013894
Corded_Ware_Horizont:Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL,0.09675,0.12491,0.073539,0.051034,0.033545,0.022311,0.0047,-0.015922,-0.012067,-0.014032,-0.006008,0.006894,0.010109,-0.020368,0.016829,0.002519,-0.022556,0.012289,0.012318,0.007379,-0.001747,0.014715,0.006162,0.013255,-0.000239
Corded_Ware_Horizont:Corded_Ware_CZE_late,0.1243381,0.11519,0.0537665,0.0826572,0.0107711,0.0293367,0.0037937,0.0021098,-0.0216991,-0.0327678,-0.0030621,0.000999,-0.0050616,-0.0141751,0.0261876,0.0048553,-0.0076927,-5.43e-05,0.00249,0.0066758,0.0004218,0.0008183,0.0034568,0.0135073,-0.0004163

the samples i used:

Q1a_351:I20182,0.125205,0.144205,0.003017,-0.001292,0.00677,0,-0.00376,-0.006923,-0.011249,0.001093,0.002761,0.005695,-0.012636,-0.003165,0.000679,-0.005967,0.005998,0.00114,-0.004777,0.004377,-0.001373,0.010881,0.008011,0.003735,-0.003233
E-V13_361:I20185,0.126344,0.158423,0.008674,-0.053295,0.040315,-0.034582,0.003995,-0.000231,0.005318,0.049204,0.004547,0.012889,-0.015015,-0.005367,-0.028366,-0.010342,0.013821,0.004307,0.010936,-0.01038,-0.009109,0.002349,0,0.000361,0.000239
E-V13_359:I20183,0.120652,0.160454,0.010559,-0.041344,0.030775,-0.02259,0.00282,-0.003,0.017794,0.047017,0.003085,0.013488,-0.008771,-0.004954,-0.029587,0.005171,0.024903,0.003674,0.008673,-0.001,-0.004866,-0.00371,0.000739,0.005784,-0.011017
R1a_362:I20186,0.122929,0.155376,0.007542,-0.059755,0.031698,-0.025937,0.0047,-0.005077,0.009408,0.049204,-0.001624,0.009292,-0.020069,0.007432,-0.028637,-0.016706,-0.001043,0.000633,0.01433,-0.010505,-0.009733,0.001855,-0.005669,0.003976,-0.002515
E-V13_358:I20181,0.119514,0.157407,0.007165,-0.039083,0.028621,-0.023985,-0.003995,-0.003923,0.014726,0.04319,0.002923,0.008692,-0.0278,0.003165,-0.016422,0.003315,0.032074,0.008108,0.018603,-0.004252,-0.00836,-0.000742,-0.010106,0.002289,-0.016885
E-V13_357:I20180,0.119514,0.167562,0.009051,-0.064923,0.03693,-0.022311,0.002115,-0.006,0.009204,0.047199,0.003248,0.004646,-0.013082,0.004542,-0.021444,-0.018695,-0.004172,0.003801,0.005405,-0.011881,-0.011605,0.002473,-0.000863,-0.006266,-0.012334
E-V13_Rozovo_320:I19500,0.117238,0.1635,0.003394,-0.056202,0.022466,-0.012829,-0.002115,-0.002308,0.000409,0.03426,0.001137,0.009292,-0.018137,0.001927,-0.018865,-0.020286,0.00339,0.006714,0.012821,-0.008754,-0.004492,0.01051,-0.004683,0.005422,-0.010777
E-V13_Boyanovo_383:I18792,0.114961,0.180764,0.000754,-0.055556,0.023081,-0.02008,-0.00611,0.000462,0.017998,0.043737,-0.008607,0.001649,-0.024678,-0.017616,-0.021444,-0.00716,0.020079,-0.013302,-0.006913,-0.004752,-0.013227,0.016075,-0.006655,0.023377,-0.008981

Target: E-V13_Boyanovo_383:I18792 Distance: 3.9423% / 0.03942315
50.2	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
38.6	Western_Balkans_EBA
11.2	Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic

Target: E-V13_Rozovo_320:I19500 Distance: 2.1058% / 0.02105775
34.2	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
24.2	West_Asian
21.2	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA
10.0	Corded_Ware_Horizont
8.4	Western_Balkans_EBA
2.0	Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic

Target: E-V13_357:I20180 Distance: 1.7933% / 0.01793273
28.4	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA
22.0	Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
21.2	West_Asian
20.4	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
6.8	Corded_Ware_Horizont
1.2	Western_Balkans_EBA

Target: E-V13_358:I20181 Distance: 2.9584% / 0.02958399
39.8	Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
25.8	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
20.6	Yamnaya
11.8	Western_Balkans_EBA
2.0	West_Asian

Target: R1a_362:I20186 Distance: 1.9609% / 0.01960903
46.8	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
35.8	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic_EBA
8.0	Yamnaya
5.8	West_Asian
3.0	Western_Balkans_EBA
0.6	Corded_Ware_Horizont

Target: E-V13_359:I20183 Distance: 1.8139% / 0.01813949
37.6	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
27.2	Western_Balkans_EBA
25.4	Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
5.2	Yamnaya
4.6	Baltic

Target: E-V13_361:I20185 Distance: 1.9096% / 0.01909590
47.2	Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
19.0	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
16.0	West_Asian
8.8	Western_Balkans_EBA
6.0	Yamnaya
3.0	Corded_Ware_Horizont

Target: Q1a_351:I20182 Distance: 2.0725% / 0.02072499
34.8	West_Asian
25.8	Corded_Ware_Horizont
18.4	Aegean_Balkans_EBA
12.8	Western_Balkans_EBA
4.2	Yamnaya
2.2	Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
1.8	Baltic

I think the trend is quite clear, on general E-V13 Kapitan Andreevo samples do prefer some kind of Carpathian/Pannonian Neolithic (or proximity) which was low on WHG or whatever, they don't lean entirely on Eastern Balkans Chalcolithic. Despite that, Neolithic people from lower Danube where on latter stages we see survivors made the greatest resistance to Yamnaya incursions, built fortified settlements. Not trying to overlook on it, but it looks to me like some people from a bit West of East Carpathians met Noua-Sabatinovska Culture hence the Eastern Balkans Neolithic incline in addition from something slightly more West. No doubt about it.

 

[Hawk]

Slightly adjusted models, and i think they are quite fair.

Northern_Pannonian_Carpathian:HUN_Tisza_LN,0.123498,0.1802565,0.029038,-0.069768,0.069551,-0.032909,-0.0105755,0.0053075,0.0435635,0.07581,0.0081195,0.006669,-0.0165015,0.001514,-0.0370515,-0.0116015,0.0033245,0.00038,0.0094275,-0.010505,-0.0038685,0.002164,-0.0056695,-0.0062055,-0.003054
Northern_Pannonian_Carpathian:HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECA,0.1252053,0.1790717,0.0271527,-0.0718137,0.062678,-0.0321653,-0.0040733,0.0033843,0.052631,0.0798803,0.0094727,0.0130883,-0.0236373,0.0048627,-0.0342013,-0.010298,0.0116477,0.003674,0.0091343,-0.017258,-0.0107727,0.0078313,-0.0076413,-0.0137367,0.000519
Northern_Pannonian_Carpathian::HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECHA,0.12862,0.17264,0.025644,-0.07106,0.069859,-0.043786,-0.00235,-0.001846,0.048268,0.07581,0.003735,0.006894,-0.018731,-0.000688,-0.033794,-0.008618,0.029076,-0.000127,0.013324,0.001626,-0.005241,0.006801,-0.002711,-0.013134,0.000958
South_Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HUN_Vinca_MN,0.120368,0.1774638,0.008768,-0.0873715,0.0611652,-0.042182,-0.0045238,-0.0019612,0.04387,0.082553,0.0060895,0.0133008,-0.0201435,-0.0020642,-0.039189,-0.0094468,0.023078,0.0027558,0.0115012,-0.0086292,-0.0093587,0.00711,-0.0033278,-0.0027412,-0.0093108
South_Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic:HRV_Starcevo_LN:I5079,0.122929,0.178733,0.013576,-0.088825,0.060934,-0.041555,0.00235,0.000692,0.044586,0.078544,0.002273,0.012739,-0.021704,-0.009771,-0.035694,-0.013524,0.016559,-0.000507,0.006913,-0.007379,-0.018218,-0.000495,-0.013927,-0.000482,0.000479
Southern_Balkans_Neolithic:GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2318,0.118376,0.180764,0.000377,-0.100776,0.048009,-0.050758,-0.00423,-0.008307,0.023725,0.07909,0.00682,0.014537,-0.029435,-0.00578,-0.043702,0.001591,0.035073,0.00038,0.010559,-0.014007,-0.021213,-0.005935,-0.003944,-0.014701,-0.010059
Southern_Balkans_Neolithic:GRC_Peloponnese_N:I2937,0.118376,0.178733,0,-0.102714,0.053548,-0.044623,0.000705,-0.000462,0.031088,0.0831,0.010718,0.013638,-0.018731,0.002615,-0.034202,-0.022275,0.00013,0.003167,0.021871,-0.019009,-0.019965,0.000989,-0.008504,0.00241,-0.007305
Southern_Balkans_Neolithic:ALB_NC:I13838,0.122929,0.18178,0.004903,-0.101745,0.04647,-0.049364,-0.001645,-0.002308,0.032519,0.080366,0.012666,0.015286,-0.02438,0.004129,-0.039359,-0.021347,0.002999,-0.00114,0.00993,-0.016133,-0.005615,0.005812,-0.000616,-0.001807,-0.010538
Adriatic_Neolithic:HRV_Pop_MN:POP13,0.105855,0.176702,0.023759,-0.08398,0.065858,-0.029284,0,0.003692,0.042132,0.078362,0.007957,0.01139,-0.023488,0.001927,-0.032301,-0.020551,-0.001304,0.004434,0.007542,-0.018509,-0.007237,0.002226,-0.002711,-0.013616,-0.005029
Adriatic_Neolithic:HRV_Pop_MN:POP14,0.119514,0.179749,0.019987,-0.084303,0.052317,-0.037929,-0.00846,-0.004384,0.045404,0.083829,0.007957,0.011839,-0.025867,-0.001651,-0.025108,-0.013126,0.005476,0.002407,0.00993,-0.014382,-0.009234,0.01014,-0.005423,-0.004217,-0.005987
Eastern_Balkans_Neolithic:4321:I14166,0.132035,0.170609,0.022627,-0.072352,0.070167,-0.034861,-0.00987,-0.000923,0.041314,0.079273,0.004872,0.005545,-0.018731,-0.006331,-0.03868,0.007027,0.030379,0.003674,0.017723,-0.005253,-0.003993,0.009521,-0.007518,-0.010965,-0.003233
Eastern_Balkans_Neolithic:4315:I14160,0.122929,0.178733,0.023381,-0.071383,0.065551,-0.035698,-0.00517,0.003231,0.043564,0.076721,0.002111,0.006594,-0.024083,0.001927,-0.03298,0.006232,0.034813,0.002154,0.008422,0.002501,0.005241,0.010758,-0.00037,-0.008796,-0.010059
Eastern_Balkans_Neolithic:BGR_Varna_C,0.125205,0.168578,0.017348,-0.054587,0.053548,-0.03263,0.006345,-0.006461,0.030065,0.067245,0.005521,0.00015,-0.017839,0.00055,-0.033523,-0.009679,0.016689,0.001774,0.013701,-0.001876,-0.00861,0.007914,-0.009983,-0.010001,-0.002036
Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_CZE_early,0.1244463,0.1218633,0.0657443,0.0725673,0.013233,0.025658,0.0050917,0.0059997,-0.0139073,-0.0218683,-0.0048177,0.0029473,-0.0109513,-0.01601,0.0245657,0.0061433,-0.0093877,4.23e-05,-0.0027657,0.0030013,0.000416,-0.0009063,-0.0022593,0.002691,-0.0034727
Bell_Beaker:Bell_Beaker_FRA_C,0.132604,0.1340495,0.0605275,0.0385985,0.041854,0.0107375,-0.00047,0.006346,0.008897,0.0126655,-0.00203,0.012889,-0.015089,-0.0157575,0.0143865,0.0117345,-0.007888,0.0023435,-0.0016965,0.001751,-0.0004365,0.0058115,-0.0009245,-0.001265,-0.00467
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_BGR,0.113823,0.123895,0.034318,0.040375,0.003693,0.012829,0.003055,0.001615,-0.02127,-0.014579,0.005846,0.003897,-0.014271,0.00867,0.011401,-0.013524,-0.005998,0.000253,-0.000628,-0.004752,0.004742,0.005441,-0.002588,-0.000482,0.001197
Yamnaya:Yamnaya_UKR,0.119514,0.0873355,0.0452545,0.1106285,-0.028313,0.042531,0.00846,-0.003461,-0.0521535,-0.0707985,0.0002435,0.004421,-0.0043115,-0.0202305,0.0323015,0.0107395,-0.0002605,-0.011529,-0.005531,0.002376,-0.0028075,0.0004325,-0.009367,0.0192795,0.0031135
West_Asian:ARM_Areni_C,0.1115468,0.1327805,-0.0316782,-0.0281818,-0.0278512,-0.005508,0.0022325,-0.0073265,-0.0236735,-0.0068795,0.007064,0.0064068,-0.0066528,-0.0040598,-0.0060735,-0.0100438,-0.0098115,0.0026922,0.0009428,-0.006941,-0.002901,0.0025965,0.0014175,-0.0031932,0.0047898
West_Asian:TUR_Ikiztepe_LC,0.1093966,0.1521039,-0.0491094,-0.078166,-0.0101898,-0.0275171,0.004883,-0.0010769,-0.0284969,0.0206331,0.0077223,0.0062279,-0.0184669,0.0088997,-0.0163318,-0.0136716,0.0115028,0.0030546,0.007402,-0.0093239,-0.0019826,-0.0020198,-0.0019309,-0.00565,0.0034328
Baltic:Baltic_LVA_MN,0.1293028,0.0706808,0.1523568,0.1945116,0.047578,0.0589576,-0.0050764,0.006323,0.0208204,-0.0559464,0.0052288,-0.0185234,0.0298512,-0.0275518,0.027931,0.036197,0.0010952,-0.0001266,-0.0074412,0.03104,0.0268278,0.0172372,-0.0087258,-0.0600808,0.0013894
Corded_Ware_Horizont:Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL,0.09675,0.12491,0.073539,0.051034,0.033545,0.022311,0.0047,-0.015922,-0.012067,-0.014032,-0.006008,0.006894,0.010109,-0.020368,0.016829,0.002519,-0.022556,0.012289,0.012318,0.007379,-0.001747,0.014715,0.006162,0.013255,-0.000239
Corded_Ware_Horizont:Corded_Ware_CZE_late,0.1243381,0.11519,0.0537665,0.0826572,0.0107711,0.0293367,0.0037937,0.0021098,-0.0216991,-0.0327678,-0.0030621,0.000999,-0.0050616,-0.0141751,0.0261876,0.0048553,-0.0076927,-5.43e-05,0.00249,0.0066758,0.0004218,0.0008183,0.0034568,0.0135073,-0.0004163

This is the only bad fit:

Target: E-V13_Boyanovo_383:I18792 Distance: 4.7692% / 0.04769217
47.6	South_Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
22.6	West_Asian
13.0	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic
12.2	Yamnaya
4.6	Adriatic_Neolithic

Target: E-V13_Rozovo_320:I19500 Distance: 2.1553% / 0.02155327
39.8	Southern_Balkans_Neolithic
29.4	West_Asian
17.0	Corded_Ware_Horizont
9.6	Yamnaya
3.4	Adriatic_Neolithic
0.8	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic

Target: E-V13_357:I20180 Distance: 1.6700% / 0.01670019
30.8	Southern_Balkans_Neolithic
25.8	West_Asian
23.4	Northern_Pannonian_Carpathian
9.4	Corded_Ware_Horizont
7.6	Adriatic_Neolithic
1.6	Bell_Beaker
1.4	Yamnaya

Target: E-V13_358:I20181 Distance: 2.7376% / 0.02737589
36.0	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic
32.8	Southern_Balkans_Neolithic
20.6	Yamnaya
10.6	West_Asian

Target: R1a_362:I20186 Distance: 1.7364% / 0.01736439
55.6	Southern_Balkans_Neolithic
20.4	Yamnaya
12.6	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic
11.2	West_Asian
0.2	Corded_Ware_Horizont

Target: E-V13_359:I20183 Distance: 2.2173% / 0.02217341
29.4	South_Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
24.2	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic
18.8	Southern_Balkans_Neolithic
18.0	Yamnaya
9.6	West_Asian

Target: E-V13_361:I20185 Distance: 1.7893% / 0.01789259
45.2	Southern_Balkans_Neolithic
14.6	Northern_Pannonian_Carpathian
13.4	West_Asian
9.6	Corded_Ware_Horizont
8.8	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic
8.4	Yamnaya

Target: Q1a_351:I20182 Distance: 2.1085% / 0.02108499
45.8	West_Asian
33.6	Corded_Ware_Horizont
20.6	Eastern_Balkans_Chalcolithic

From Sv.Kris Croatia

Target: E-V13_Croatia_Kris:2253:I5724 Distance: 2.0740% / 0.02074041
30.6	Bell_Beaker
28.2	Eastern_Balkans_Neolithic
15.4	West_Asian
12.2	Northern_Pannonian_Carpathian
9.2	Corded_Ware_Horizont
4.4	Baltic

Target: J2b2_Croatia_Kris:2252:I5723 Distance: 1.4380% / 0.01438011
27.0	Corded_Ware_Horizont
24.4	Bell_Beaker
20.4	Eastern_Balkans_Neolithic
11.8	Northern_Pannonian_Carpathian
9.8	South_Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
6.6	Southern_Balkans_Neolithic

Target: R1b_Croatia_Kris:2254:I5725 Distance: 2.0322% / 0.02032217
24.8	Corded_Ware_Horizont
22.4	Bell_Beaker
20.4	South_Pannonian_Carpathian_Neolithic
17.4	Adriatic_Neolithic
8.0	Eastern_Balkans_Neolithic
4.8	Baltic
2.2	West_Asian

Target: Female_Contemporary_E-V13_Kris:2257:I5728 Distance: 1.9020% / 0.01902040
29.0	Corded_Ware_Horizont
26.4	Northern_Pannonian_Carpathian
21.0	Adriatic_Neolithic
14.6	Bell_Beaker
9.0	Yamnaya

I don't see exclusive Eastern Balkans pattern, i do see it on general, but they also need Pannonian_Carpathian or something in approximate. And, i put all different localized EEF groups. + This is backed by archaeology.

 

[Hawk]

What are the chances that a Neolithic/Chalcolithic population will survive in this location? This was like a highway for eternity, slim i would say.

At the beginning of the 12
th
century BC, the situa-tion changed considerably. Once again, this was atime of transformation, in which many palatial socie-ties in the Eastern Mediterranean experience an up-heaval. Palaces (where present) were destroyed andnew elites arose, oen searching for ties to the formerpalatial elites, but principally introducing new devel-opments. During this period, we observe a reversalin the direction of influence. New handmade pot-tery, oen decorated with plastic bands with fingerimpressions, suddenly appears in the cultural layersof Troy VIIb1 (Fig. 10), along with the local wheel-made Grey Ware. Almost all of the handmade potsare one-handled coarse vessels, but amphorae withtwo horizontal ledge handles also occur. A bit later, inTroy VIIb2, a whole spectrum of new ceramic shapeswas added, consisting of medium fine, handmade,well-burnished pottery oen decorated with incisedmotifs (e.g. „
running dog
“), flutes (similar to those ofthe Early Bronze Age) or conspicuous knobs. anksto the latter, this is oen labelled
Knobbed Ware
,which is almost unanimously linked to the region of Dobrudja. In addition, architecture changed, andso-called orthostates are in use, which in turn canbe linked to modern southern Ukraine (Becks et al.2006). e communication route would thereby re-main the same; to what extent it was accompanied byan actual migration remains an open question.e eventful relationship between race and Anato-lia during the Bronze Age not only provides insightsinto their contacts, but in a broader sense also indi-cates links between the Balkans and the Near East.During certain periods, present-day southeasternBulgaria was indeed more strongly connected todevelopments in the south, and the reason for suchcontacts almost certainly was the rich raw materialresources that the region had to offer.

https://www.academia.edu/38196698/T...to_the_Balkans_FULLTEXT?email_work_card=title

 

[Riverman]

Yes, Babadag. From Eastern Lapus-Gava.