To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

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I wonder how will Iron Age Albania look like, i'll go on safer bet and suppose that Dardani-Enchelei-Pirusti-Taulanti should be the one carrying some E-V13.

Dardanians are very likely to have had at least some E-V13, but beyond that, I think most of Albania was not as much covered as some other regions early on. We don't even know for sure whether Proto-Albanians lived in what is now Albania, so there is a lot to do. But clearly modern Albanians Palaeo-Balkan ancestry is split at least between Illyrian (J-L283, R1b) and Daco-Thracian (E-V13).

From the article:
in favour of its end in the late 12th century BC.6Contrary to the situation with the ?uto Brdo ? Girla Mare culture, the Gava culture complex, identified through the presence of the channelled and burnished pottery, is in the Serbian archae-ology considered as the trigger of the transition from the Late Bronze to the Early Iron Age.

https://www.anubih.ba/godisnjak/god47/5-Aleksandar Kapuran.pdf

Indeed, they were the ones with iron metallurgy and weapons, among the first in Europe and the whole world, especially if considering mass production.

Also noteworthy: I think that some of the Pannonians and more Northern Illyrian groups were rather fused and therefore both cutlrually and genetically influenced by Channelled Ware people, just like the Girla-Mare finds suggest as well for some regions. Unfortunately Urnfielders don't make it easy to trace them back, with their dead being cremated...
Basarabi, P?eničevo ? Babadag, Insula Banului groups and Kalakača horizon, all should yield some E-V13 with enough samples.
For P?eničevo we know it, the others need to be tested and some other groups as well, like the Triballi associated one: "Rača ? Ljuljaci culture in Central Serbia is generally associated "

 
Dardanians are very likely to have had at least some E-V13, but beyond that, I think most of Albania was not as much covered as some other regions early on. We don't even know for sure whether Proto-Albanians lived in what is now Albania, so there is a lot to do. But clearly modern Albanians Palaeo-Balkan ancestry is split at least between Illyrian (J-L283, R1b) and Daco-Thracian (E-V13).

From the article:


https://www.anubih.ba/godisnjak/god47/5-Aleksandar Kapuran.pdf

Indeed, they were the ones with iron metallurgy and weapons, among the first in Europe and the whole world, especially if considering mass production.

Also noteworthy: I think that some of the Pannonians and more Northern Illyrian groups were rather fused and therefore both cutlrually and genetically influenced by Channelled Ware people, just like the Girla-Mare finds suggest as well for some regions. Unfortunately Urnfielders don't make it easy to trace them back, with their dead being cremated...

Kalakača and Basarabi should be tested extensively, I guess both will yield a good V13 variation in the mix. They didn't burn the majority any more, so this should be possible and would be a direct post-Channelled Ware comparison for the region.

You are jumping too soon in conclusions Riv. Enchelei burial tradition and the culture it was associated with Trebenishte Culture is clearly not the same as Glasinac-Mat, cremation burials on a pyre, burial death masks resembling the Odrysian mask of King Teres and Macedonians. How can we exclude them without testing the remains from classical time because they also used burials in rectangular pits.

Maybe there was a Central-Balkans tree distantly related to Daco-Thracians let's say?
 
You are jumping too soon in conclusions Riv. Enchelei burial tradition and the culture it was associated with Trebenishte Culture is clearly not the same as Glasinac-Mat, cremation burials on a pyre, burial death masks resembling the Odrysian mask of King Teres and Macedonians. How can we exclude them without testing the remains from classical time because they also used burials in rectangular pits.

Maybe there was a Central-Balkans tree distantly related to Daco-Thracians let's say?

I think the Central Balkan groups are clearly not distant, they are just a branch from the same tree of Daco-Thracians/Gava/Channelled Ware. I think you know better the local cultural groups, decisive is always, just like you pointed out, whether they showed influence from Gava/Channelled Ware. If they do, they likely had E-V13, if not, they could have too, but its just much less likely.
 
I think the Central Balkan groups are clearly not distant, they are just a branch from the same tree of Daco-Thracians/Gava/Channelled Ware. I think you know better the local cultural groups, decisive is always, just like you pointed out, whether they showed influence from Gava/Channelled Ware. If they do, they likely had E-V13, if not, they could have too, but its just much less likely.

This is interesting, nothing conclusive, but nevetheless it should not be neglected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peresadyes

Not only it's close to Berisades, but also to Spartocid dynasty (supposedly Odrysians who deposed Greek Bosphoran rulers) ruler: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paerisades_I

As for Channeled Ware, i am trying to find Namik Bodinaku's reference to it, apparently in Central Albania:

For southeast see Andrea 2009, p. 17-19; Gori-Krapf 2015, p. 117, 119; furtheranalysis on the channelled ware in Albania is provided by N. Bodinaku, referringalso to its first appearance in the tumuli of Pazhok, in central Albania, since the13th century B.C., see Bodinaku 1982, p. 72-73, 98, Tab. IX: v. 43; see also Prendi1978, p. 14-15.

https://halshs.archives-ouvertes.fr/halshs-01695818/document

UPDATE:

The French-Albanian Mission of the Korçë Basin excavated from 1993 to 2006 the Bronze andEarly Iron Age site of Sovjan and surveyed in the following years the plain around the ancient lakeMaliq.20 The period from the MBA/LBA to EIA is documented in 5 layers and several C14 dates are

available. It is possible to follow in detail the chronological development of the local ceramic typology,which can be linked to the stratigraphies of other sites such as Kastanas. A major typological change isapparent between the MBA and the LBA and an increase of pottery decoration styles and quality ischaracteristic of the LBA. Both channelled and matt-painted pottery appear at the end of the LBA insmall quantities and become common in the EIA. Few Southern imports are equally present both inLBA and EIA layers.

https://dial.uclouvain.be/pr/boreal/object/boreal:249304/datastream/PDF_01/view
 
As for Channeled Ware, i am trying to find Namik Bodinaku's reference to it, apparently in Central Albania:

UPDATE:

If there is regional persistence, it would be interesting to get some Iron Age samples then. Aren't some Albanian samples from the IA on the way?
 
If there is regional persistence, it would be interesting to get some Iron Age samples then. Aren't some Albanian samples from the IA on the way?

I have no information on that, but someone mentioned that they are on the way.
 
I have no information on that, but someone mentioned that they are on the way.

For the earlier origins of E-L618, this map is interesting imho:
urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20170515105921892-0558:9781316550328:14740fig5_1.png

https://static.cambridge.org/binary...9781316550328:14740fig5_1.png?pub-status=live

I guess enough Proto-Sesklo samples should yield some E1b1b and early Neolithic remains from Cyprus could be interesting as well.
 
For the earlier origins of E-L618, this map is interesting imho:
urn:cambridge.org:id:binary:20170515105921892-0558:9781316550328:14740fig5_1.png

https://static.cambridge.org/binary...9781316550328:14740fig5_1.png?pub-status=live

I guess enough Proto-Sesklo samples should yield some E1b1b and early Neolithic remains from Cyprus could be interesting as well.

Interesting indeed, we need enough samples to get the whole picture. Look how the timelines fit, PPNB being the commong source E-L618 heading toward Europe, and E-V12/E-V22 heading toward North Africa? Just a hypothesis which can easily be invalidated of course.
 
Interesting indeed, we need enough samples to get the whole picture. Look how the timelines fit, PPNB being the commong source E-L618 heading toward Europe, and E-V12/E-V22 heading toward North Africa? Just a hypothesis which can easily be invalidated of course.

Yes. In Southern Sinai the Neolithics were closer to PPN too, with small measurements, gracile build, even more so than Natufians, so the exact opposite of the North African variation:
All the graves were found within the living area of
sites. Some aspects of the burials hint to a common inherited ideology with other Levantine Neolithic
groups as : the burials are associated with dwellings or courtyards; adult skulls were removed for
secondary burials: children and adults were treated differently; "nest" burials, known from Jericho and
'Ain Ghazal, are present
; no offerings were found with the dead.

Although they show more resemblance to the Levantine PPN
populations than to any other circum-Mediterranean group, it seems that the Sinai Pre-pottery
population may have their biological roots, neither in the Levant nor in North Africa, but most probably
in the Arabian Peninsula.

In sum, the Sinai PPN skulls present a very gracile morphology. The skulls are small in size, with nearly unnoticeable muscles markings, especially in the case of the masticatory apparatus. Sexual dimorphism is small, and the population, in general, is morphologically homogeneous,

https://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153-9345_1994_num_20_2_961

Of course, only ancient DNA can really prove it.
 
I still insist that PPNB is the one to look for, also E-L618 was a minor Y-DNA even on Europe up until Middle Bronze Age, hence why it's so difficult to pop in ancient samples.

rafc made an interesting observation about some older E-V13 subclades, but Myceneans didn't come by 3rd millennium b.c, not according to newer studies.

Insights into admixture history and social practices in the prehistoric Aegean from ancient DNA


Content:

European genetic history went through major transformations during the Neolithic and Bronze Age. Despite the significance of the Aegean for European prehistory, preservation challenges have hindered a comprehensive understanding of human mobility and population dynamics in this region through time. In this paper, we present insights from ancient DNA (genome-wide) analyses on Early Neolithic and Bronze Age individuals from Mainland Greece, Crete and the Aegean islands. Our results indicate multi-phased genetic shifts in the Aegean populations since the early Neolithic that can be traced to populations related to Anatolia and then, during the Late Bronze Age, to Central-Eastern Europe. Besides the long-lasting biological connections with these adjacent regions, we also found that Bronze Age Aegeans exhibited endogamy in high frequencies so far unobserved in the rest of the ancient West Eurasia. These close-kin marital practices, likely equivalent to first-cousins unions, were substantially higher in Crete and other Aegean islands than in Mainland Greece. Our study highlights the potential of novel biomolecular methods to unravel the interplay of genetic admixture and cultural entanglements in the Aegean and beyond.
Keywords:
ancient DNA, Aegean prehistory, marital practices, human mobility

https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa202...?Abstract=2323
 
I still insist that PPNB is the one to look for, also E-L618 was a minor Y-DNA even on Europe up until Middle Bronze Age, hence why it's so difficult to pop in ancient samples.

rafc made an interesting observation about some older E-V13 subclades, but Myceneans didn't come by 3rd millennium b.c, not according to newer studies.

Insights into admixture history and social practices in the prehistoric Aegean from ancient DNA


Content:

European genetic history went through major transformations during the Neolithic and Bronze Age. Despite the significance of the Aegean for European prehistory, preservation challenges have hindered a comprehensive understanding of human mobility and population dynamics in this region through time. In this paper, we present insights from ancient DNA (genome-wide) analyses on Early Neolithic and Bronze Age individuals from Mainland Greece, Crete and the Aegean islands. Our results indicate multi-phased genetic shifts in the Aegean populations since the early Neolithic that can be traced to populations related to Anatolia and then, during the Late Bronze Age, to Central-Eastern Europe. Besides the long-lasting biological connections with these adjacent regions, we also found that Bronze Age Aegeans exhibited endogamy in high frequencies so far unobserved in the rest of the ancient West Eurasia. These close-kin marital practices, likely equivalent to first-cousins unions, were substantially higher in Crete and other Aegean islands than in Mainland Greece. Our study highlights the potential of novel biomolecular methods to unravel the interplay of genetic admixture and cultural entanglements in the Aegean and beyond.
Keywords:
ancient DNA, Aegean prehistory, marital practices, human mobility

https://submissions.e-a-a.org/eaa202...?Abstract=2323

I thought about that independently from you and did mention it already. There is still a lot unknown about Cardial-Impresso culture in particular. So many options, so few data points. If just having the Sopot data from the South, nobody would have thought of Lengyel-Sopot having E1b1b at the Middle Danube, yet even two samples were found there. That just shows how sampling matters a lot.
 
You think it’s possible E-V12 and E-V22 tagged along with E-L618 via Anatolian Ceramic Farmers (ACF) into Europe? I think for sure we will find E-M123/E-M34 in some EEFs, perhaps more towards the Late Neolithic.
 
You think it’s possible E-V12 and E-V22 tagged along with E-L618 via Anatolian Ceramic Farmers (ACF) into Europe? I think for sure we will find E-M123/E-M34 in some EEFs, perhaps more towards the Late Neolithic.

Certainly possible, but more likely since the Copper Age probably. Last word like always has the ancient DNA and high rates of regional sampling with solid TMRCA. We can always talk about archaeological cultures and how they connect, people could have migrated, but in the end the evidence needs to come from the DNA. I follow more closely the spread of E-V13 and just looking at how some clades ended up in different portions of the old world shows what's possible within a few generations.
 
I checked the latest Y-DNA study on Bosnian-Herzegovinians, sample size is 100 but it's decent. I guess all E1b1b is E-V13.

AbstractIn a study of the Bosnian-Herzegovinian (B&H) population, Y chromosomemarker frequencies for 100 individuals, generated using PowerPlex® Y23 kit,were used to perform Y chromosome haplogroup assignment via Whit Athey’sHaplogroup Predictor. This Whit Athey’s algorithm determines Y chromosomehaplogroups from Y chromosome short tandem repeat (Y-STR) data usingBayesian probability-based approach. According to the results of the presentstudy, the most frequent haplogroup appears to be I2a, with a prevalence of 49%,followed by R1a and E1b1b, each accounting for 17% of all haplogroups withinthe population. Remaining haplogroups encountered in this study are J2a (5%), I1(4%), R1b (4%), J2b (2%), G2a (1%) and N (1%). These results confirmpreviously published preliminary B&H population data published over 10 yearsago, especially the prediction about B&H population being a part of the WesternBalkan area, which served as the Last Glacial Maximum refuge for the Paleolithichuman European population. Furthermore, the results corroborate the hypothesisthat this area was a significant stopping point on the “Middle East-Europehighway” during the Neolithic farmer migrations. Finally, since these results arealmost completely in accordance with previously published data on B&H andneighboring populations that were generated by Y chromosome single nucleotidepolymorphism (Y-SNP) analysis, it can be concluded that in silico analysis of YSTRs is a reliable method for approximation of the Y chromosome haplogroupdiversity of an examined population.

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/80495777.pdf
 
To be fair, when I first saw the Sardinian samples I was surprised as well, because the diversity was higher than let's say in Austria for E-V13 at first look. But then I realised that they all came from Cagliari and that a lot of other haplotypes absolutely not common in Sardinia being present as well. When knowing the background of the Sardinian samples, namely the big study done on the region, it makes more sense and just shows that large sample sizes matter.

I mean there are clades in Sardinians which we haven't found in people of which we know they must have it in good numbers, like Hungarians, Austrians, Czech, Croats, Romanians and so on, yet they are in Sardinia. That is remarkable indeed and just shows that a quite diverse bunch of V13 guys entered the island, but all with a profile of the Iron Age largely. My best guess is still that an unknown Italian group carried them all, but we'll see.

Its so annoying to not have that kind of data for all regions ;)

A new E1b1b sample from Germany, a warrior/mercenary which was hacked to death with his comrades (I1 and R1b each) of supposed Western European (old German?) origin:

Poster-sldner-1-CMM2-2.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/1MK3BKr/Poster-sldner-1-CMM2-2.jpg

Posted by Waldemar on Anthrogenica:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread...dieval-Moravia&p=795989&viewfull=1#post795989

Too bad they didn't type the yDNA, bur probably the data gets published and someone can take a look whether more can be said than just E1b1b...

Obviously we need more data from every region, but I am still not convinced by your argument. I don't see why only hallstatt clades would be spread by later groups and not any branches from their own time, probabilistically this doesn't click for me. These branches are confirmed for now, so they have to be explained properly.
 
Did he really? Do you think we didn't saw those subclades before?

That guy is a charlatan and is a freak obsessed with E-V13. He has gone rampant trying to lump all E-V13 into a single place and explaining a Middle Age expansion from it which is stupid of course.

Like denying EIA Thracian leaks, Viminacium leaks, E-V13 presence in Greece.

It's obvious that his rampants are not of good-will, nor objectivity, and i am actually quite surprised you quote him.

Regardless, his point stands, those branches are significant, they are there. One of them only has an Albanian cousin. I don't think they could all have been sent there by later romans or germanics, it doesn't make sense probabilistically that they would spread such old branches. For some sure, but for all?

I have countered his arguments when I have disagreed with them (like his argument about the IE *sk cluster in IE > Albanian). This doesn't mean I now have to banish him and shun any argument he makes.
 
Obviously we need more data from every region, but I am still not convinced by your argument. I don't see why only hallstatt clades would be spread by later groups and not any branches from their own time, probabilistically this doesn't click for me. These branches are confirmed for now, so they have to be explained properly.

I will write a new post/thread, because I have now a good explanation for the two wave TMRCA of E-V13.
The first being Gava/Chanelled Ware/Fluted Ware, that's practically proven at this point. The second comes from within this horizon, but it has a somewhat different distribution. Its basis are the Northern Thracians/Daco-Thracians, with first the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, then Basarabi-Bosut and finally the Geto-Scythians. These three create, successively, networks which first create Hallstatt itself, then influence it big over time and finally even connecting the West and the East up to La Tene, by transmitting new cultural innovations. Part of it were the trousers, new cavalry tactics and the animal style. Basaraboid influences were widespread throughout Hungary, into Austria and the Czech Republic. In my opinion these migrations of individuals and small groups for the most part, used Hallstatt like a hub which spread it into the Celtic population.

There were later subclades spread too, but, and this is big, they usually went North to South. Its more likely they spread from Czechia, Poland, Slovakia, Austria, Ukraine, Romania to the Balkan, than vice versa. The primary exceptions are some Vlach groups, they are really the one big exception. But simply by looking their own frequency, and the subclades will prove it too, they can't explain the vast majority of the European distribution.

The crucial question is: Is there an overlap of the TMRCA between large regions and the answer is, mostly no. not after Hallstatt. Obviously subclades were mobile between ethnicities and regions, but they rarely jump over two to three such regions and ethnicities anywhere, that's really exceptional. But its absolutely not exceptional, E-V13 was even more mobile than many other haplogroups, in the typical expansion timings: 1.300-900 BC and 800-400 BC and the reason is clearly Channelled Ware and Hallstatt.

Even for the Balkan itself it might be provable: There were before the Romans, Germanics and Slavs two major expansion waves: One with the LBA-EIA transition/Channelled Ware, the second in Hallstatt with Basarabi. Basarabi split, especially its elite, in major branches in different directions, like North, West, East and South. We have so far no later overlap and while it surely will appear, it won't explain a lot. The vast majority of the modern distribution, unless its Greek colonisation, Germanics and Slavs, can be attributed to this two groups, Gava and Basarabi. Pșenicevo is part of the same complex for example, a descendent of Gava and contributor to Basarabi.
 
Macurdy argued that Dardanians were a people known particularly for knowledge of metal working & mining, and possibly early users of iron.


Even in the Roman period, Dardania was considered important for mining industry.


Pic: Dardanici coin issued by Emperor Trajan & Hadrian
E-NcRW1WUAQDQCP


E-NetpeXEAkGDAM
 
Regardless, his point stands, those branches are significant, they are there. One of them only has an Albanian cousin. I don't think they could all have been sent there by later romans or germanics, it doesn't make sense probabilistically that they would spread such old branches. For some sure, but for all?

I have countered his arguments when I have disagreed with them (like his argument about the IE *sk cluster in IE > Albanian). This doesn't mean I now have to banish him and shun any argument he makes.

That's absolutely not true. That guy is a J2b2-L283 carrier who is closely associated with Rrenjet project and perhaps the other one as well. So, please don't bring his propaganda in this thread. His opinion, his barking like a dog in internet is not welcomed.
 
That's absolutely not true. That guy is a J2b2-L283 carrier who is closely associated with Rrenjet project and perhaps the other one as well. So, please don't bring his propaganda in this thread. His opinion, his barking like a dog in internet is not welcomed.

For Albanians its clear that E-V13 and J-L283 are highly important haplotypes, present since at least the early historical period, potentially much longer, since the later Iron Age. But probably its a more ancestry and clan oriented point of view which makes such infights more likely? The good side of this is, that Albanians get a lot more people tested, especially in comparison to Romanians, Slovakians, Hungarians, Ukrainians, Germans and so on. If the mentioned Central Europeans would test as much as Albanians, we would know a lot more about the distribution and history of E-V13. Czechs do test more than the others with their project, but unfortunately most of it is just lower level STR testing. Better than nothing, but doesn't help to pin some subclades and their routes down.
 
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