To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

[Dibran]

Although there might be singular clades of V13 during the genesis of proto-Slavs, I find it highly unlikely, if not impossible for E-V13 as a whole to be Slavic. Unless Slavs had a Southern European origin.

Its not Slavic. Perhaps he meant to say that if some of the E-V13 in these Avars(who also had Slavic admixture) is related to some E-V13 in the Balkans, then, perhaps at least recently some(and not all) E-V13 may have a more recent Avaro-Slavic extraction and spread. In which case some E-V13 in the Balkans could habe arrived with Avars and not been native there. I think perhaps this could be more true for some South Slavic E-V13 as I recall someone mentioning these Avar V13 samples have no recent matches with Albanian V13 until at least the Iron Age.

 

[Dibran]

We had a study that said 1/3 of Greek DNA is "Polish-like" or "Ukrainian-like". Certainly makes more sense that the guy who said Thracian gave it to the Greeks.

Northern Greeks have a ton of R1a/I-Y3120, and their ratios seem to coincide with that of autosomal Slavic-like ratios which is more like 40% and not 1/3.

However, if some E-V13 clades in Avars piggy backed with Slavic tribes in the early medieval to the Balkans, some branches could be connected to their movements and need a more careful approach on a case by case basis before painting all V13 as paleobalkan.

Though, someone mentioned that these V13 Avar clades had no recent matches with Albanian E-V13 until at least the Iron Age or around 1000BCE. So its more likely some South Slavic E-V13 could have arrived with Avaro-Slavs and not the Albanian branches.

 

[Dibran]

As someone with roots in Central and East Kosovo I can assure you that neither are we an extention of the Gegs of Northern Albania nor is our language identical to people from Shkodra. Our roots run deep we did not "move" here in the dark ages.

PH1751 as a whole seems more diverse around Northern Albania. As far as I'm aware, between both projects, Kosova is still very under-sampled, so that could of course change in time. I mean, I guess 300-400 is not too few but still, at least 1000 from Kosova would be a nice measure. So far most J2b-L283 in Kosove is overwhelmingly PH1751 which only split in the early medieval. Likely from somewhere in Northern Albania.

There's a paper supposedly coming on mid to late Bronze Age and Iron Age Albania that found J2b-L283 and R1b-PF7652. And E-V13 appeared in the Iron Age supposedly.

 

[Dibran]

What is "non-Balkanic"? EV-13 is spread all over Europe. The earliest related Y-DNA is from Neolithic Spain.

There are Scythians, Slavs, and Avars with this Y-DNA. It exists in Italy, Germany, Russia, Scandinavia, etc... It has it's highest modern frequency in the Balkans, but that doesn't make it "Balkanic".
It's like saying I2 is "Balkanic".

That's incorrect. E-V13 has it's highest diversity in the Balkans regardless of the spread. You practically can find an Albanian flag in yfull at every level of the step tree even if outliers.

There's really no comparison with I-Y3120 which has its diversity in Ukraine/Belarus, despite the overwhelming frequency in the Balkans which is simply due to bottlenecks/founder effects.

 

[Dibran]

People are too biased here. They're just trying to make their Y-DNA exclusive to their own ethnic groups. Even Illyrians that have been pre-dominantly J2B2-L283, are not the sole carriers of that Y-DNA.
You can't say those J2B2-L283-heavy Sardianians "Balkanic" or "Illyrian". Regions or ethnic groups don't own a Y-DNA. The whole point of the analysis is to see the path of migration and how it got there.

Sardinia was invaded and settled a number of times and is by no means homogeneous. If I recall, most of their J2b-L283 is related to that of the Balkans, and likely arrived with the Byzantine occupation of that island. And Balkaners, especially Albanians, were under the Byzantines.

So J2b-L283 arriving with them or earlier Roman occupations isn't out of the realm of reason and is the likely scenario unless it's some old basal branch. Which is likely not true for most J2b-L283 in Sardinia.

They even have R1a and I-Y3120 as well. Which is also probably from Byzantine era occupations. Unless some came with the temporary Slavic Taifa state that tried invading from Spain.

 

[enter_tain]

Sardinia was invaded and settled a number of times and is by no means homogeneous. If I recall, most of their J2b-L283 is related to that of the Balkans, and likely arrived with the Byzantine occupation of that island. And Balkaners, especially Albanians, were under the Byzantines.
So J2b-L283 arriving with them or earlier Roman occupations isn't out of the realm of reason and is the likely scenario unless it's some old basal branch. Which is likely not true for most J2b-L283 in Sardinia.
They even have R1a and I-Y3120 as well. Which is also probably from Byzantine era occupations. Unless some came with the temporary Slavic Taifa state that tried invading from Spain.

Mmm what? Sardinian J2B2-L283 has been found like 1200 BC with the Nuragic Civilization. Nothing to do with Byzantines.

I know that Albanians have been in the Balkans for 4 thousand years, but let's cut out this "Balkanite" bullshit. We're only Balkanites maternally. Our ancestors came from Central and Eastern Europe just like everyone else during the Bronze Age. That includes J2 and EV13.

I think this Pelasgian b.s. has gotten to people and it's widespread in the media

http://www.gazetadita.al/bojaxhi-fl...vertetojne-qe-origjinen-e-kemi-nga-pellazget/

 

[Dibran]

Mmm what? Sardinian J2B2-L283 has been found like 1200 BC with the Nuragic Civilization. Nothing to do with Byzantines.

I know that Albanians have been in the Balkans for 4 thousand years, but let's cut out this "Balkanite" bullshit. We're only Balkanites maternally. Our ancestors came from Central and Eastern Europe just like everyone else during the Bronze Age. That includes J2 and EV13.

I think this Pelasgian b.s. has gotten to people and it's widespread in the media

http://www.gazetadita.al/bojaxhi-fl...vertetojne-qe-origjinen-e-kemi-nga-pellazget/

Who said anything about Pelaagians? They weren't even Indo-Europeans. I never even brought them up.

No need for assumptions. When I'm saying Balkanite I'm speaking about the present population. If you want to get technical and keep going back with a time machine, most Proto-Indo-Europeans were just mammoth hunting dudes in Siberia(R1a/R1b), with the Js near the Zagros and Es in Africa.

 

[enter_tain]

Who said anything about Pelaagians? They weren't even Indo-Europeans. I never even brought them up.

No need for assumptions. When I'm saying Balkanite I'm speaking about the present population. If you want to get technical and keep going back with a time machine, most Proto-Indo-Europeans were just mammoth hunting dudes in Siberia(R1a/R1b), with the Js near the Zagros and Es in Africa.

Like I said for the last 4 thousand years, yes. But we don't own the property rights to J2B2 nor EV-13. These are clearly present all over Central, Eastern and southern Europe. Some of them are from the Roman Empire, but some of them are just simply distant cousin branches to the ones in the Balkans that never migrated there.

 

[Hawk]

We don't even know who the Pelasgians were btw.

For example Marija Gimbutas made a hypothesis claiming Pelasgians were bearers of Grla Mara/Dubovac Zuto Brdo Culture from Serbia/Romania border who migrated into Greece during the big turmoil of Late Bronze Age. That would still made them Neolithic derived since this culture is to be linked with Encrusted Pottery Culture which usually bear G2a and I2a lines and perhaps some E-V13 (but this one is more to be related with Channeled-Ware/Gava phenomenon).

She might have been right since Attica and Thessaly where Pelasgians were supposed to settle were the regions transforming the burial rite to cremation.

If Gimbutas was right, she thought ancient Greek writers were just confused, and it was the Achaean Greek who were older than Pelasgians in Greece.

But, material culture on Lemnos indicate of Pelasgians as derived from Mycenaean times and their decorations have none of Geometric patterns associated with the Danubian migrants of Late Bronze Age.

 

[Archetype0ne]

If I recall correctly, supposedly an upcoming paper on Albanian aDNA(think more the South of Albania??) has E-V13 appearing in Iron Age Albania and J2b-L283 in Middle to late BA Albania together with R1b-PF7652.

Wait, there is a leak about the South Albania samples and it contains E-V13 from the Iron Age?

I guess it does not take much to be right in archeo genetics, just a sliver of common sense... Thanks for letting me know about this. Last time I heard the Southern samples were not tested yet.

Is there other information on what haplogroups are found in the south?

 

[Dibran]

Wait, there is a leak about the South Albania samples and it contains E-V13 from the Iron Age?

I guess it does not take much to be right in archeo genetics, just a sliver of common sense... Thanks for letting me know about this. Last time I heard the Southern samples were not tested yet.

Is there other information on what haplogroups are found in the south?

It was discussed on Anthro a couple times. I could be wrong. Maybe I'm mixing things up lol

 

[Archetype0ne]

It was discussed on Anthro a couple times. I could be wrong. Maybe I'm mixing things up lol

Have not kept up. Last I checked with Gjergj here more than 6 months ago, only the North Samples were tested and they were R1b and L283, while the South Samples had still to be tested. Could you doublecheck please. As this could be huge to settle all these talks here.

 

[Riverman]

Northern Greeks have a ton of R1a/I-Y3120, and their ratios seem to coincide with that of autosomal Slavic-like ratios which is more like 40% and not 1/3.
However, if some E-V13 clades in Avars piggy backed with Slavic tribes in the early medieval to the Balkans, some branches could be connected to their movements and need a more careful approach on a case by case basis before painting all V13 as paleobalkan.
Though, someone mentioned that these V13 Avar clades had no recent matches with Albanian E-V13 until at least the Iron Age or around 1000BCE. So its more likely some South Slavic E-V13 could have arrived with Avaro-Slavs and not the Albanian branches.

Most of the branches which being found in the Pannonian samples are also present in Albanians, but their phylogeny is rather shallow, they mostly spread with recent founder effects, like its the usual thing for Albanians. That's a big problem for any sort of estimation and placing, because it could mean everything. They could have entered with Channelled Ware in the Late Bronze Age, probably even with first splinters in the MBA from Pannonia, the Danubian zone, or they could have come with Slavs and Vlachs really, really late. I mean subclades which are more common to the North of Albanians and have a TMRCA of around High Medieval times.
In theory they could have come from Medieval settlers which just came to Albanians in the 14th century and there is no way to prove the opposite, until more modern and ancient samples arrive which allow us to properly place these subclades. We just don't know and like you stated, it must be worked out case by case, clade by clade. Any generalisation might be very misleading, because some subclades in Albanians might be really old in the Central-Southern Balkans, while others are probably really young and came from the North - or South, like Greeks, very late.

That's incorrect. E-V13 has it's highest diversity in the Balkans regardless of the spread. You practically can find an Albanian flag in yfull at every level of the step tree even if outliers.
There's really no comparison with I-Y3120 which has its diversity in Ukraine/Belarus, despite the overwhelming frequency in the Balkans which is simply due to bottlenecks/founder effects.

Sampling bias is real and a strange thing, because there are now on FTDNA not that many Albanians left in basal positions any more, most could be assigned to their typical subclades. There are other, undertested people, with much less samples, yet they have solid positions upstream too.

We really need a lot more sampling. Highly interesting are obviously Romania and Bulgaria. Especially Bulgaria is very diverse per tested individual. Its really astonishing. Even with the few Bulgarians tested, they already have as basal and diverse sampling as the much better tested Albanians for many clades. Romanians are more complicated, because they tested even less and about one half is more Southern Vlach derived of those few ethnic Romanians. What is being needed is getting the other half tested.

 

[Jovialis]

Who said anything about Pelaagians? They weren't even Indo-Europeans. I never even brought them up.
No need for assumptions. When I'm saying Balkanite I'm speaking about the present population. If you want to get technical and keep going back with a time machine, most Proto-Indo-Europeans were just mammoth hunting dudes in Siberia(R1a/R1b), with the Js near the Zagros and Es in Africa.

E was big among the Natufians, and the Levant was later supplanted by a lot of J from Iran/Caucasus. E probably comes from the Middle east, from where it supplanted African Halogroups, from back-migrations.

 

[Hawk]

Have not kept up. Last I checked with Gjergj here more than 6 months ago, only the North Samples were tested and they were R1b and L283, while the South Samples had still to be tested. Could you doublecheck please. As this could be huge to settle all these talks here.

If i recall correctly gjergj said i expect E-V13 to show in Iron Age, but he said it that one sample during EBA was R1b-PF7562 and one sample during MBA was J2b2-L283. So the last two were confirmed by him as a leak.

 

[Riverman]

E was big among the Natufians, and the Levant was later supplanted by a lot of J from Iran/Caucasus. E probably comes from the Middle east, from where it supplanted African Halogroups, from back-migrations.

Indeed. And even if E originated in Africa, E-M35 was in the Near East very early ans the predecessors of E-V13 lived in the Near East at the advent of the Neolithic Revolution, in which they were among the pioneers of the process leading to the cultural package.

 

[Riverman]

If i recall correctly gjergj said i expect E-V13 to show in Iron Age, but he said it that one sample during EBA was R1b-PF7562 and one sample during MBA was J2b2-L283. So the last two were confirmed by him as a leak.

The issue of cremation is a big problem even if they were there, it might be tricky to prove it.

 

[Hawk]

E was big among the Natufians, and the Levant was later supplanted by a lot of J from Iran/Caucasus. E probably comes from the Middle east, from where it supplanted African Halogroups, from back-migrations.

That's not something i agree with, i think Y-DNA E is a native African lineage, native to East-Africa. Probably very deep in prehistory when E-P2/E-M215 somewhere in Paleolithic pushed in North Africa maybe displacing the Y-DNA CF/D and other E branches pushed more in Central/Western/South Africa subjucating various Shum-Laka like and other more basal African people like Y-DNA A00, A0, A, B.

As for Natufians, they were clearly North African migrants there mixing with Dzudzuana-like females. Then hypothetically E-M78 (likely E-L618 the ancestor of E-V13) might have been present to a degree with the Mesolithic migration of Mushabian Culture from Egypt.

 

[Jovialis]

That's not something i agree with, i think Y-DNA E is a native African lineage, native to East-Africa. Probably very deep in prehistory when E-P2/E-M215 somewhere in Paleolithic pushed in North Africa maybe displacing the Y-DNA CF/D and other E branches pushed more in Central/Western/South Africa subjucating various Shum-Laka like and other more basal African people like Y-DNA A00, A0, A, B.

As for Natufians, they were clearly North African migrants there mixing with Dzudzuana-like females. Then hypothetically E-M78 (likely E-L618 the ancestor of E-V13) might have been present to a degree with the Mesolithic migration of Mushabian Culture from Egypt.

Hey, maybe you're right, I don't have strong opinions on this issue. That's just something I recall reading that a paper (I forget which) had suggested.

Speaking of Dzudzuana... I wish that paper would at least release the samples already. Maybe it is going to shake things up a bit too much, and is threatening to some people's beliefs. Nevertheless, one cannot cover the sky with their hands.

 

[Hawk]

Hey, maybe you're right, I don't have strong opinions on this issue. That's just something I recall reading that a paper (I forget which) had suggested.

Speaking of Dzudzuana... I wish that paper would at least release the samples already. Maybe it is going to shake things up a bit too much, and is threatening to some people's beliefs. Nevertheless, one cannot cover the sky with their hands.

But i still think Y-DNA E is to be associated with ANA (Ancient North Africans) which is classified as separate component from both Eurasians and Sub-Saharans but it looks like influenced both Basal Eurasian and Sub-Saharan autosomal to a degree.

Even the Iberomaurusian cranium which was noted by anthropologists hinted at quite separate group of people. Likewise the more deep in time, the more pure ANA and less Dzudzuana the more robust the crania like this Paleolithic Egyptian hunter gatherer whom i bet he was Y-DNA E-M35

Then you have the Iberomaurusian/Taforalt cranials

Note how they started to remove their front teeth. They started collecting specific food, and were having tooth decay. Or it was a ritual thing IDK, during Capsian time this practice stopped. Nevertheless he is good to be stamped in a Pirate flag or to be weared as Halloween mask.