To burn or not to burn: LBA/EIA Balkan case

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Cudia me Berishet eshte se jane te për hapur vetem ne Kosove dhe Veri, por jo ne Jug. Nje nga linjat qe kane lulezuar gjate perandorise turke si pak kush.


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In fact it is the Sopis who benefited the most from Ottoman Empire not the Berishas, the Sopis were kicked out either from Berishas or Thaqis from Malesi because we were relatively very small family/tribe in Malesi but in Nish, Toplic, Vranje and all surrounding the Sopis were the most numerous tribe and very likely the most powerful in that region(though they were never unified and there was no kinship between fellow tribesmen like the other tribes from Malesi), they converted from Catholicism to Islam in some small numbers, then their most powerful members instigated their cousins to do so, that's how they rose in numbers, and probably in Kosove it got boosted by Muhajers.

AbdulKerim Pasha a Sop ruler from Vranje was one of the most hateful figures from Serbs around that region during that time.

Otherwise, if there is any lineage who didn't benefit and was far more powerful before Ottoman Empire it was the Berishas, their number shattered and scattered around due to their war with the Pasha of Peja, Mahmud Pashe Begolli who burned their settlement to the ground, (Begolli was a Bardh-Gash, these people on general, Gashi-Bardhi benefited a lot from Ottoman Empire along with Luzha/Guri and Shipshani, so Gashi in general).

There is a lot of Berishas in Kosove, but they didn't come as beneficiaries, likely they started to expand much latter, the FGC33625 was likely boosted yet again by the Muhajers from Nish, Toplic who didn't have so strong tribal affiliations for other Sopis, and many have different surnames likely other than Sop.
 
In fact it is the Sopis who benefited the most from Ottoman Empire not the Berishas, the Sopis were kicked out either from Berishas or Thaqis from Malesi because we were relatively very small family/tribe in Malesi but in Nish, Toplic, Vranje and all surrounding the Sopis were the most numerous tribe and very likely the most powerful in that region(though they were never unified and there was no kinship between fellow tribesmen like the other tribes from Malesi), they converted from Catholicism to Islam in some small numbers, then their most powerful members instigated their cousins to do so, that's how they rose in numbers, and probably in Kosove it got boosted by Muhajers.

AbdulKerim Pasha a Sop ruler from Vranje was one of the most hateful figures from Serbs around that region during that time.

Otherwise, if there is any lineage who didn't benefit and was far more powerful before Ottoman Empire it was the Berishas, their number shattered and scattered around due to their war with the Pasha of Peja, Mahmud Pashe Begolli who burned their settlement to the ground, (Begolli was a Bardh-Gash, these people on general, Gashi-Bardhi benefited a lot from Ottoman Empire along with Luzha/Guri and Shipshani, so Gashi in general).

There is a lot of Berishas in Kosove, but they didn't come as beneficiaries, likely they started to expand much latter, the FGC33625 was likely boosted yet again by the Muhajers from Nish, Toplic who didn't have so strong tribal affiliations for other Sopis, and many have different surnames likely other than Sop.

I thought we have proved that Sopis and Berisha are the same or not?
 
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I thought we have proved that Sopis and Berisha are the same or not?

They have the same subclade, that's right, but they did split somewhere during 1000-1200 and they lost any kind of memory of common kinship, i suspect that there is more E-V13 => L241 than E-V13 => FGC33625 in Kosove and North Albania on general, as i said, Berishas were probably far more powerful before Ottoman Empire, then the Begolli of Bardhi attacked them somewhere during 1700-s (forgot exact date), but he attacked them as an Ottoman beylerbeyler of Rumelia not in the name of his family or fis. Anyway both him and his two sons were killed as revenge.
 
E-L241 is somewhat younger main clade, looks like it spread between Early Hallstatt-Basarabi, into the Scythianised groups (Vekerzug/Ferigile) and from there into La Tene period Celts. The bulk was staying in the Tisza-Danube area I'd say.
 
Something about Southern Albania

By the middle of the Bronze age, Maliq IIIc and Neziri cultures reveal many common elements. (Ceka, N.,Iliret, p.35) By the end of Broze Age, Maliq IIId shows wares to be decorated with geometric motives over a lustrous brown background. The motifs follow the earlier linear geometric style, naturally enriched by new motifs and more complex designs. The pottery painted before firing links Maliq IIId3 firmly with western Macedonia, represented by Boubousti, and equally with the Late Bronze Age painted pottery of central Macedonia. Frano Prendi saw a similarity in painted pottery found in Epirus with that of Maliq.N. L. G. Hammond wrote about Maliq and pointed to the autochthonous origin of the pottery painting, indicating that the “painted pottery like that of Maliq III d3 has been known in Epirus, but opinions vary as to when it first appeared in north-west Greece. We do not know of any site outside the Korce basin which has this pottery painted after firing and is of autochthonous origin, as it is at Maliq. Further, it is only at Maliq that we see the origins of this style. (N. L. G. Hammond indicated that the tumulus at Pazhok has dating that corresponds to Middle Helladic period. (The Cambridge Ancient History, Volume III, Part 1, 2008, p. 222)


A study done by Barbara Horejs indicates that a total of eight different stylistic groups in Late Bronze Age mattpainted pottery have been discerned north of Central Greece. It is indicated that all these centers have a local tradition in mattpainted pottery with clear links to older prototypes. (Barbara, Horejs, Phenomenon of Mettapainted pottery in Northern Aegean, 2007)
This pottery has been named devollite. It originated and flourished at the basin of River Devoll. During the Iron Age, this pottery characterized the whole of southern Illyrian areas. It is this pottery that is considered to provide a direct link between the Bronze Age population and the historical time population known as Illyrian. (Ceka, N., Iliret, p. 36) The area has also shown a similarity in the construction of fortifications, which became characteristic during the later Bronze Age. This construction is characterized by the placement of multi walls, use of confining tumuli, and leaving a wall encircled open space at the entrance. These construction elements could be seen In Borsh, QeparoLleshan, Tren and as far as Glasinac (Verecevo, Stipanic, Zagrovoc) and Liburnia (Budin, Oton, Dusar). (Ceka, N., Iliret, p. 36)
According to the Albanian archaeologists, these common cultural similarities indicate formation of an ethnicity with specific cultural attributes that had taken shape during the Middle Bronze period. This was the result of a reality in which life from the Neolithic period had continued uninterrupted in the development of a distinct culture. The introduction of pastoral economy, as well as economic advances, associated with changes in means of production, must have been prime contributors in the integration of the population. The new economy would have necessitated a breakdown of the existing tribal structures.
The next sizable population movement took place at the end of the second millennium B.C., which some have called Doric invasion, some others Illyrian invasion, and others have used other names. The invaders were a group of people that are identified to have brought urnfield culture south. Krahe (1955) had indicated that the Illyrians were the bearers of this culture which had developed by the fusion of the Danubian Yamnaya cultures. Elements of this civilization, reached Albania towards the end of the Bronze Age. (The Cambridge Ancient History, Volume III, Part 1, 2008, p. 228) The well known Albanian archeologist Frano Prendi summarized the evidence and the scope of impact of settlemets at the end of Bronze Age that Albanian territories had faced.
In this transitional period which was to last some three centuries with each century providing new elements in its material culture, several components are discernible: the autochthonous tradition, elements of sub-Mycenaean and Proto-Geometric civilization, and elements of Cental European origin which were spread through Albania by the second wave of the Pannono-Balkan migration (end of the twelfth and the eleventh centuries B.C.). This wave, unlike the first, had a marked influence on Albania, although only in some areas.
Of the number of cultural objects which spread from the north in all directions, there are swords with a tongue-shaped hilt (see Plates Vol.), flame-shaped spear-heads and socketed axes, which become fairly common in this period, and also pins with conical or vase-shaped heads (Vasenkopfnadeln), simple arched fibulae with or without buttons, whose origin, in all likelihood, is from the Liburno-Dalmatian coast, and so on. The earliest examples of this type with its many variants are recorded so far in the regions bordering southern Albania, as for example, at Dukat in Vlore, and are completely absent in the interior, as far as we know. This phenomenon suggests a purely maritime circulation of these eleventh and tenth century fibulae via the Adriatic.
In spite of the special influence of the Urnfield civilization which played an important role in the enrichment of the Early Iron Age civilization in Albania, especially in the south, one must emphasize that it did not impose any essential difference on the autochthonous foundation of Albanian civilization, and even less on the ethnic structure of the population. This can be seen most clearly in the uninterrupted practice of burial rites in tumuli, the customary inhumation in the Illyrian manner being in the contracted position. The small number of urn-burials, for instance in the Bare tumuli, can be associated with the influence of the second wave of the Pannono- Balkan migration in Albania, but the objects found in them are with a few exceptions typically Illyrian objects. The pottery particularly is derived without stylistic modifications from the Late Bronze Age. Thus, for example, in the Korce basin and the adjoining areas, the pottery of the first era of the Iron Age is almost identical in technique, shape and decoration with the Late Bronze Age painted pottery of Maliq, so that it is often difficult to distinguish between them. This is an important factor in demonstrating the continuity of the tradition of the’ Devollian’ pottery from the Late Bronze Age period into the Early Iron Age and even down to the sixth century B.C.

http://old.njekomb.com/?p=111640
 
Dardanians are very likely to have had at least some E-V13, but beyond that, I think most of Albania was not as much covered as some other regions early on. We don't even know for sure whether Proto-Albanians lived in what is now Albania, so there is a lot to do. But clearly modern Albanians Palaeo-Balkan ancestry is split at least between Illyrian (J-L283, R1b) and Daco-Thracian (E-V13).

From the article:


https://www.anubih.ba/godisnjak/god47/5-Aleksandar Kapuran.pdf

Indeed, they were the ones with iron metallurgy and weapons, among the first in Europe and the whole world, especially if considering mass production.

Also noteworthy: I think that some of the Pannonians and more Northern Illyrian groups were rather fused and therefore both cutlrually and genetically influenced by Channelled Ware people, just like the Girla-Mare finds suggest as well for some regions. Unfortunately Urnfielders don't make it easy to trace them back, with their dead being cremated...
Basarabi, P�eničevo � Babadag, Insula Banului groups and Kalakača horizon, all should yield some E-V13 with enough samples.
For P�eničevo we know it, the others need to be tested and some other groups as well, like the Triballi associated one: "Rača � Ljuljaci culture in Central Serbia is generally associated "


Here is a Hollywood interpretation of haplogroup E man teaching the riddle of steel to the Bell Beakers.

 
Here is a Hollywood interpretation of haplogroup E man teaching the riddle of steel to the Bell Beakers.


Riverman doesn't break character, now he will quote you with archeological quotations of Lapush and Suciu de Sus metal working activity, as well as Teleac fortress in Carpathian region. :LOL:
 
Here is a Hollywood interpretation of haplogroup E man teaching the riddle of steel to the Bell Beakers.


Well, there is a factual core to some of those fantasy novels, like G?va was among the first to produce iron, like Hawk said in Teleac fortress for example and the more advanced iron technology spread with Cimmerians from the East. The Cimmerians came in, crushed into G?va people, subdued or destroyed some, while others fought them off. Like Transcarpathian-Northern Romanian G?va for example, they build a huge "wall of fortresses" to prevent the Cimmerian raids and surprise cavalry attacks.
In the end many Thracians allied up with the Cimmerians and took up their innovations, especially improved iron working - this created the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, which reached deep into Europe.

Looking at Pannonia at that time, the yurtification, the massive destruction and the many warlords which seem to have gathered warrior and artisan specialists around them, some aspects might resemble the Conan fantasy novel more than earlier or later times.

Very much renowned are the "Cimmerian daggers":
1824-01_tlpll7.jpg


https://www.hermann-historica.de/en/auctions/lot/id/41399

Very fine iron work for that time. They appear throughout half of Europe at that time of the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, together with elite heavy cavalry gear. The later Hallstatt aristocracy in part stems from this elite warriors on horseback with their advanced, elaborated and quite expensive equipment.
The Veneti, among others, took this up pretty much, from Thraco-Cimmerians, while e.g. the Illyrians, like before with Urnfield, didn't take as much up from the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon.

Thraco-Cimmerians finds:
Thraco-Cimmerian.png


Such a pity almost all Mezocsat/Thraco-Cimmerian samples with clear affinity to G?va being females. I don't expect them all to be E-V13, obviously, but some should pop up in a larger Thraco-Cimmerian sample.
 
In the movie, the attire of the religious followers resembles Thracian clothing.

They appear throughout half of Europe at that time of the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, together with elite heavy cavalry gear.

I didn't know that was possible at the time. From Estrucan painting, Cimmerians did not have stirrups and had to tie their body with a rope to the horses neck, to prevent them from falling while riding. I assumed they were light archers and would only attack with swords when panic set in.

kimmerijci_1.jpg
 
I didn't know that was possible at the time. From Estrucan painting, Cimmerians did not have stirrups and had to tie their body with a rope to the horses neck, to prevent them from falling while riding. I assumed they were light archers and would only attack with swords when panic set in.

Well, it's relative, but still a major leap forward, not just for the light, but also the heavy cavalry.
Of course no cataphracts or Medieval knights, but still.
You have many depictions of cavalry fights, e.g. from later Hallstatt and the grave goods of the elite with horse gear.
 
Riverman, i guess we can continue discussing here: Makó-Nyírség-Sanislău-Ottomány/Otomani would be a good fit. How these people adopted the IE language might be via their northern neighbors, Kostany Culture which was descended from Nitra. The Ottomani-Fuszesabony switched to inhumation after their contacts with Kostany but then again during MBA-LBA switched back to cremation and eventually the Gava Cultural Complex was found. So this is why we see a cremation on a pyre on top of a tumuli burial mix occassionally, but also flat cemeteries with urns, which was a Tell Culture + Yamnaya mix of burial.

Just an educated guess.
 
Here is a Hollywood interpretation of haplogroup E man teaching the riddle of steel to the Bell Beakers.

Whats more is thracians and dacians were described as blue eyed redheads by the ancient greeks and even tall
 
Riverman, i guess we can continue discussing here: Makó-Nyírség-Sanislău-Ottomány/Otomani would be a good fit. How these people adopted the IE language might be via their northern neighbors, Kostany Culture which was descended from Nitra.

Rather Ko?ťany developed as an offshot of the Mierzanowice culture probably and they half conquered half fused with Otomani I, which created:

The Ottomani-Fuszesabony switched to inhumation after their contacts with Kostany

Not just contacts, many male patrilineages were replaced by these newly incoming herders from the Epi-Corded sphere, which is why F?zesabony will have quite a lot of R1a.

but then again during MBA-LBA switched back to cremation and eventually the Gava Cultural Complex was found.

That's why F?zesabony's impact was rather limited and not as strong in the Eastern Carpathian sphere, the more remote areas, in which locals prevailed. From these the tradition of the earlier people re-emerged and with this spread the clans of the East - and I think these were E-V13 dominated in Berkesz-Demecser/Suciu de Sus/Cehalut/Igrita later - from which G?va emerged as a unified horizon. Which means either they were closely related from the start, or one of these groups dominated the others - by incidence spreading E-V13 through its expansion. That's unresolved and is hard to solve, because they of course cremated their dead.

However, I think that they might have been IE even way before, because both Yamnaya and Epi-Corded groups made it to the region first.

It is important to stress however, that the Eastern Carpathian core zone for these autochthonous groups being the least affected by the direct influx from Ko?ťany and the Tumulus culture. They lived more protected, and expanded from there, with the unified G?va horizon, emerging from the early groups - either one or all of them, especially Suciu de Sus, Berkesz-Demecser, Cehalut and Igrita. Suciu de Sus/Lăpuș might be considered the most direct autochthonous, least foreign influenced imho.
 
The maps from Carlos are really nice and largely accurate. I have to admire this work.

Here you see Cotofeni, an absolutely crucial culture for the Carpatho-Balkan sphere, in which first Corded decorated Western Pontic steppe people mixed with locals. Even in the later Yamnaya phase, the locals did persist, as is evident in the burials, the funerary rituals in the kurgans. The possible key culture which grew out of that sphere of Cotofeni, Livezile, Mak? is Ny?rs?g:

10-chalcolithic-early.jpg


Note its nearly identical with the later area of Suciu de Sus/Berkes-Demecser and the core G?va territory.

More relevant maps from Carlos:
https://indo-european.eu/maps/
 
Interesting to note, Draga Garasanin considered the so called Baierdorf-Velatice complex (possible candidate for Croatian E-V13) from Lower Austria and Northern Croatia to be related to the Mediana Group from Central Balkans. Well, in Beaierdorf-Velatice appears the Riegsee Sword along with some items which archaeologists believe the origin must be sought in Carpathian Mountains.

... above. It suggests that Period III was a turbulent time where traditional warriors and mercenaries could rise to the highest chie fl y positions, perhaps as part of social upheaval, or perhaps because warfare and warriors now allowed war leaders to take over chie fl y leadership. We see this new trend from Achaea in Greece to the Nordic realm. Suddenly fl ange-hilted warrior swords of Naue II type appear in rich graves with local prestige goods. All evidence linked to the expansion of the Naue II sword thus points to disruption and violence along the way. How can this be sub- stantiated archaeologically, and what was the scale of the violent events accompanying Naue II swords? Already during Period III from 1350/1300 to 1150/ 1100 BC we see that full-hilted swords are more often used in combat, just as some warrior burials in this period may contain the symbolic paraphernalia of ritual chiefs: razors and tweezers. The warriors are making claims to positions previously not open to them. The stable conditions of the ‘ golden ’ Period II had come to an end after 150 – 200 years of wealth expansion and consolidation of power for the ruling chie fl y elites. However, during Period III, 1300 – 1150 BC , a dramatic change took place in the supplies of bronze, probably during the 13th century BC (HaA1). The old network with southern Germany, which had secured a steady fl ow of metal for amber during most of the 15th and 14th centuries BC and provided opportunities for warriors and traders to travel both ways ( Fig. 4), was cut off due to warfare linked to social and religious reformation throughout eastern Central Europe. The archaeological evidence for this is twofold: the successor of the octagonal-hilted swords, the Riegsee full-hilted sword, never reached Denmark, but we suddenly fi nd a group of Riegsee swords in Slovakia, the new hub for contacts to the north (Fig. 8). We may interpret this as an attempt to forge new political alliances, but perhaps it is also a result of new east/west hostilities on a regional scale. At the same time we see a geographical expansion of hoarding (Fig. 8), which was an old ritual tradition in the Carpathians, but now also occurs in central Germany and former Yugoslavia, suggesting either the intrusion of new people from the Carpathian Basin and/or new hostilities. In the Nordic zone, and in the area of the former Tumulus Culture as well as in the Aegean, warrior burials continued and suggest the continuation of old social and ritual traditions (Sperber 1999). In southern Germany one of the central hubs of trade, Bernstorff, was heavily forti fi ed around 1340 BC and shortly after burned down and deserted. Bernstorff is the largest forti fi ed settlement in southern Germany/western Central Europe with a size of 14 ha. Its huge forti fi cations were constructed in the Middle Bronze Age (middle of the 14th century BC ), when the power balance between eastern and western Central Europe was changing, and shortly after it was devastated and burned down along 1.6 km of its length (Bähr et al. 2012). We will probably never know who the enemies were, but we might suspect them to be outsiders, because at the same time we fi nd evidence of major upheavals in eastern Central ...
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ilted-sword-which-replaced-the_fig8_284811960

One thing i do wonder, it's yet to be seen whether some archaeologically undetected influence happened in Glasinac Culture. Only aDNA can prove.
 
I want to add that I am, now, totally opposed to LBA and EIA theory about E-V13 being spread similarly the way I2a was spread in the Early Dark Ages.
One LBA Thracian sample was already IA Thracian-like. Additionally IA Northern Illyrians and Peloponnesians seem to have preserved their Bronze Age genetic profile even after the LBA. If E-V13 was a major line in Thracians, and it clearly was, then it was present there before the LBA/EIA. As the genetic ethnogenesis of IA Balkanites was "finished" in Middle Bronze Age.
 
I want to add that I am, now, totally opposed to LBA and EIA theory about E-V13 being spread similarly the way I2a was spread in the Early Dark Ages.
One LBA Thracian sample was already IA Thracian-like. Additionally IA Northern Illyrians and Peloponnesians seem to have preserved their Bronze Age genetic profile even after the LBA. If E-V13 was a major line in Thracians, and it clearly was, then it was present there before the LBA/EIA. As the genetic ethnogenesis of IA Balkanites was "finished" in Middle Bronze Age.

That will be proven wrong, because Thrace had before the Fluted Ware horizon a fairly diverse landscape, with possible Greek and Anatolian influences. You will see that already mixed E-V13 carriers came in, and further mixed with locals. We need the autosomal data from the Psenichevo samples, to be sure about those, but even if they would score like BGR_IA, what I kind of doubt, that they will be EXACTLY like it, that's no game changer after 500 years of local admixture.

Look at the Iberian case, which is pretty similar to the Channelled Ware scenario: The Bell Beakers could be even majority wise local Iberians, they still carried R1b! You will see, some day, the same for the Balkans. They picked up a lot of local women, that's what they did.
 
That will be proven wrong, because Thrace had before the Fluted Ware horizon a fairly diverse landscape, with possible Greek and Anatolian influences. You will see that already mixed E-V13 carriers came in, and further mixed with locals. We need the autosomal data from the Psenichevo samples, to be sure about those, but even if they would score like BGR_IA, what I kind of doubt, that they will be EXACTLY like it, that's no game changer after 500 years of local admixture.

Look at the Iberian case, which is pretty similar to the Channelled Ware scenario: The Bell Beakers could be even majority wise local Iberians, they still carried R1b! You will see, some day, the same for the Balkans. They picked up a lot of local women, that's what they did.

Balkanic IE is such a generic term, it's probably a wrap-up of similar EEF + Steppe ratios. If we check their regional EEF and Steppe we might have regional differences as well in a North/West/South/East within the range from Southern Central Europe down to Greece and from Slovenia in the West to Eastern Carpathians in the East.

In addition, there is no LBA Thracian autosomal available, even if it was, that's the timeline of inter-related movement, but there is no such sample yet available.

Similar people were spread from inner Balkan Vatin-Belegis to Gava up North in Carpathian.
 
Balkanic IE is such a generic term, it's probably a wrap-up of similar EEF + Steppe ratios. If we check their regional EEF and Steppe we might have regional differences as well in a North/West/South/East within the range from Southern Central Europe down to Greece and from Slovenia in the West to Eastern Carpathians in the East.

In addition, there is no LBA Thracian autosomal available, even if it was, that's the timeline of inter-related movement, but there is no such sample yet available.

Similar people were spread from inner Balkan Vatin-Belegis to Gava up North in Carpathian.

There is one LBA Thracian sample in an old PCA and the sample is very genetically similar to BGR_IA. I am sure I can find it.
 
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