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Thread: Ragnar Lothbrok's dynasty may well have belonged to haplogroup R1a-Z284

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    3 members found this post helpful.

    Post Ragnar Lothbrok's dynasty may well have belonged to haplogroup R1a-Z284

    I have checked Ragnar Lothbrok's genealogy to find if he had male line descendants to this day. It would not be surprising considering that he had eight sons and they became powerful rulers of their own. The main issue is that the genealogy is disputed. If enough Y-DNA lines survived, it would be possible to confirm the genealogy by triangulating the various Y-DNA haplotypes.

    Don't be fooled by the series Vikings. Ragnar did not start life as a farmer whose fortune rose after he found a way to navigate to England. He was the son of (semi-legendary) King Sigurd Ring of Denmark and Sweden, himself said to be the son and grandson of other kings of Sweden or Denmark.


    The most promising lead comes from the Uí Ímair dynasty, said to have been founded by Ivar the Boneless (Ragnar's 3rd or 4th son), although according to Geneanet's genealogy it was founded by Halfdan Ragnarsson (known as Hvitserk in the TV series), who were both at some point kings of Dublin. In any case, they had the same Y-DNA. One of this dynasty's cadet branches is Clann Somhairle (Clan Donald and Clan MacDougall), which have already been confirmed to belong to R1a-Z284>L448>YP280 (actually Somerled is said to correspond to YP326 further downstream, but YP280 was formed 1500 years ago and appears to be the marker that separates the Scandinavian branch from the British Isles, so most likely Ragnar Lothbrok's original lineage, if indeed it is his Y-DNA).

    Clan MacLeod is said to have been founded by the younger son of Olaf the Black, King of the Isles, who belonged to the Crovan dynasty. This dynasty is also an offshoot of Uí Ímair and therefore should have the same Y-DNA. Surely enough the MacLeod Y-DNA Project has over 20 members belonging to R1a-Z284>L448, and some are confirmed for the YP280 subclade.

    Other lines may not have known descendants to this day but remain historically important. Knowing Ragnar Lothbrok's Y-DNA would also include the following royal lines.

    Ragnar's eldest son, Björn Ironside inherited the title of King of Sweden and his descendants kept that title until Emund the Old's death circa 1060.

    Ragnar's second or third son Sigurd II "Snake-in-the-Eye", King of Denmark, who was supposedly the father of Harthacnut I of Denmark of the House of Knýtlinga. The most famous member of that house is King Cnut the Great of England, Denmark and Norway.
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    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have checked Ragnar Lothbrok's genealogy to find if he had male line descendants to this day. It would not be surprising considering that he had eight sons and they became powerful rulers of their own. The main issue is that the genealogy is disputed. If enough Y-DNA lines survived, it would be possible to confirm the genealogy by triangulating the various Y-DNA haplotypes.

    Don't be fooled by the series Vikings. Ragnar did not start life as a farmer whose fortune rose after he found a way to navigate to England. He was the son of (semi-legendary) King Sigurd Ring of Denmark and Sweden, himself said to be the son and grandson of other kings of Sweden or Denmark.


    The most promising lead comes from the Uí Ímair dynasty, said to have been founded by Ivar the Boneless (Ragnar's 3rd or 4th son), although according to Geneanet's genealogy it was founded by Halfdan Ragnarsson (known as Hvitserk in the TV series), who were both at some point kings of Dublin. In any case, they had the same Y-DNA. One of this dynasty's cadet branches is Clann Somhairle (Clan Donald and Clan MacDougall), which have already been confirmed to belong to R1a-Z284>L448>YP280 (actually Somerled is said to correspond to YP326 further downstream, but YP280 was formed 1500 years ago and appears to be the marker that separates the Scandinavian branch from the British Isles, so most likely Ragnar Lothbrok's original lineage, if indeed it is his Y-DNA).

    Clan MacLeod is said to have been founded by the younger son of Olaf the Black, King of the Isles, who belonged to the Crovan dynasty. This dynasty is also an offshoot of Uí Ímair and therefore should have the same Y-DNA. Surely enough the MacLeod Y-DNA Project has over 20 members belonging to R1a-Z284>L448, and some are confirmed for the YP280 subclade.

    Other lines may not have known descendants to this day but remain historically important. Knowing Ragnar Lothbrok's Y-DNA would also include the following royal lines.

    Ragnar's eldest son, Björn Ironside inherited the title of King of Sweden and his descendants kept that title until Emund the Old's death circa 1060.

    Ragnar's second or third son Sigurd II "Snake-in-the-Eye", King of Denmark, who was supposedly the father of Harthacnut I of Denmark of the House of Knýtlinga. The most famous member of that house is King Cnut the Great of England, Denmark and Norway.
    The lines sucess in the last 1300 years is plastered all over the yfull tree as noticable in the relatively recent diversification.

    Makes one think, who was Lothar for some of the other lines that mirror this in the Iron Age and Bronze Age, or even deeper. Probably those Lothars are lost in history, with yfull the only proof of their existence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have checked Ragnar Lothbrok's genealogy to find if he had male line descendants to this day. It would not be surprising considering that he had eight sons and they became powerful rulers of their own. The main issue is that the genealogy is disputed. If enough Y-DNA lines survived, it would be possible to confirm the genealogy by triangulating the various Y-DNA haplotypes.

    Don't be fooled by the series Vikings. Ragnar did not start life as a farmer whose fortune rose after he found a way to navigate to England. He was the son of (semi-legendary) King Sigurd Ring of Denmark and Sweden, himself said to be the son and grandson of other kings of Sweden or Denmark.


    The most promising lead comes from the Uí Ímair dynasty, said to have been founded by Ivar the Boneless (Ragnar's 3rd or 4th son), although according to Geneanet's genealogy it was founded by Halfdan Ragnarsson (known as Hvitserk in the TV series), who were both at some point kings of Dublin. In any case, they had the same Y-DNA. One of this dynasty's cadet branches is Clann Somhairle (Clan Donald and Clan MacDougall), which have already been confirmed to belong to R1a-Z284>L448>YP280 (actually Somerled is said to correspond to YP326 further downstream, but YP280 was formed 1500 years ago and appears to be the marker that separates the Scandinavian branch from the British Isles, so most likely Ragnar Lothbrok's original lineage, if indeed it is his Y-DNA).

    Clan MacLeod is said to have been founded by the younger son of Olaf the Black, King of the Isles, who belonged to the Crovan dynasty. This dynasty is also an offshoot of Uí Ímair and therefore should have the same Y-DNA. Surely enough the MacLeod Y-DNA Project has over 20 members belonging to R1a-Z284>L448, and some are confirmed for the YP280 subclade.

    Other lines may not have known descendants to this day but remain historically important. Knowing Ragnar Lothbrok's Y-DNA would also include the following royal lines.

    Ragnar's eldest son, Björn Ironside inherited the title of King of Sweden and his descendants kept that title until Emund the Old's death circa 1060.

    Ragnar's second or third son Sigurd II "Snake-in-the-Eye", King of Denmark, who was supposedly the father of Harthacnut I of Denmark of the House of Knýtlinga. The most famous member of that house is King Cnut the Great of England, Denmark and Norway.

    What about Rollo ...........was that Ragnar brother, cousin or nothing .....................if brother , his line is in normandy
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    … maybe unrelated, … I have Rollo relatives in my town (2 miles from Lecce), and I had unrelated Rollo classmates.



    https://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-co...i/ROLLO/PUGLIA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    … maybe unrelated, … I have Rollo relatives in my town (2 miles from Lecce), and I had unrelated Rollo classmates.



    https://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-co...i/ROLLO/PUGLIA
    Did they take the same boat as the Foggia viking?


    Edit: My sad attempt at a joke, linking two separate ancient ethnicity links between Italy and Scandinavia really did fall flat huh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salento View Post
    … maybe unrelated, … I have Rollo relatives in my town (2 miles from Lecce), and I had unrelated Rollo classmates.



    https://www.cognomix.it/mappe-dei-co...i/ROLLO/PUGLIA

    norman invasion from sicliy to albania was stopped by Byzantine lands forces and their allies the venetian fleet ................maybe the normans decides apulia is a re-supply place... a bit of R and R

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    Ragnar / Ragno (Spider) … symbol of Salento, … there you go :) lol

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    Another thing the series got wrong. Rollo was not Ragnar's brother or even relative. In fact that Rollo (v. 860-930) who became Count of Rouen was born over 100 years after Ragnar Lothbrok (755-845).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Nice! So Z284 may be strongly associated with Viking voyages.
    There are words which carry the presage of defeat. Defence is such a word. What is the result of an even victorious defence? The next attempt of imposing it to that weaker, defender. The attacker, despite temporary setback, feels the master of situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Another thing the series got wrong. Rollo was not Ragnar's brother or even relative. In fact that Rollo (v. 860-930) who became Count of Rouen was born over 100 years after Ragnar Lothbrok (755-845).
    They did it intentionally, for cinematic reasons. To add more depth to Ragnar's story.

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Nice! So Z284 may be strongly associated with Viking voyages.
    There is no doubt about that. There is 23% of R1a in Iceland (much more than in Sweden or Denmark and about the same as Norway) and most of it is Z284.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomenable View Post
    Nice! So Z284 may be strongly associated with Viking voyages.
    Most definitively.
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41431-020-00747-z

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have checked Ragnar Lothbrok's genealogy to find if he had male line descendants to this day. It would not be surprising considering that he had eight sons and they became powerful rulers of their own. The main issue is that the genealogy is disputed. If enough Y-DNA lines survived, it would be possible to confirm the genealogy by triangulating the various Y-DNA haplotypes.

    Don't be fooled by the series Vikings. Ragnar did not start life as a farmer whose fortune rose after he found a way to navigate to England. He was the son of (semi-legendary) King Sigurd Ring of Denmark and Sweden, himself said to be the son and grandson of other kings of Sweden or Denmark.


    The most promising lead comes from the Uí Ímair dynasty, said to have been founded by Ivar the Boneless (Ragnar's 3rd or 4th son), although according to Geneanet's genealogy it was founded by Halfdan Ragnarsson (known as Hvitserk in the TV series), who were both at some point kings of Dublin. In any case, they had the same Y-DNA. One of this dynasty's cadet branches is Clann Somhairle (Clan Donald and Clan MacDougall), which have already been confirmed to belong to R1a-Z284>L448>YP280 (actually Somerled is said to correspond to YP326 further downstream, but YP280 was formed 1500 years ago and appears to be the marker that separates the Scandinavian branch from the British Isles, so most likely Ragnar Lothbrok's original lineage, if indeed it is his Y-DNA).

    Clan MacLeod is said to have been founded by the younger son of Olaf the Black, King of the Isles, who belonged to the Crovan dynasty. This dynasty is also an offshoot of Uí Ímair and therefore should have the same Y-DNA. Surely enough the MacLeod Y-DNA Project has over 20 members belonging to R1a-Z284>L448, and some are confirmed for the YP280 subclade.

    Other lines may not have known descendants to this day but remain historically important. Knowing Ragnar Lothbrok's Y-DNA would also include the following royal lines.

    Ragnar's eldest son, Björn Ironside inherited the title of King of Sweden and his descendants kept that title until Emund the Old's death circa 1060.

    Ragnar's second or third son Sigurd II "Snake-in-the-Eye", King of Denmark, who was supposedly the father of Harthacnut I of Denmark of the House of Knýtlinga. The most famous member of that house is King Cnut the Great of England, Denmark and Norway.
    https://www.geni.com/discussions/160108

    Clann Somerled is maternal descendants of Dynasty of Ivar.

    ''
    More recently, historian Alex Woolf has pointed out the conflicting information found in the different versions of the pedigree, and drawn attention to their faulty chronology. Instead he argues that these pedigrees may derive from an original claim to the descent of Somerled from the Crovan dynasty and the Uí Ímair, subsequently obscured by alterations made to link them to the Scottish and Irish foundation legends.[2] In any case, the Clann Somhairle based their claim to the Isles on their descent from Somerled's wife, Ragnhildr, the daughter of king Amlaíb Derg, and Woolf accepts that the male-line Crovan descent claim underlying the pedigrees may have arisen as a replacement for this female-line derivation from the family. Sir Iain Moncreiffe attempted to reconstruct a male line descent from Somerled back to Echmarcach mac Ragnaill, King of the Isles,[3] but this has received little attention.''

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clann_Somhairle

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    In 2011, DNA tests were performed on a sample of 45 men with the surname MacLeod; 47% were found to share a common ancestor in the male line (the remaining 53% of the sample contained 9 different genetic male line lineages). The genetic marker of the 47%-lineage was found to be the S68 branch of Haplogroup R1b. This marker is found not only in the Western Isles, but also in Orkney, Shetland, England, Norway, and Sweden. In consequence, the study concluded that the genetic origin of Clan MacLeod likely lies in Scandinavia.[32]

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    L448 is hardly the only Z284 subclade in the Isles or elsewhere.

    Between available options in the R-S4458 subclade from R-Z284, my R-BY30613 subclade from R-S6285 is more likely closer to Ragnar--perhaps through Björn Ironside--than those R-L448 by Somerled in Scotland from Norway, but it is possible mine is associated with the House of Estridsen, also founded by a man named Björn. I have a Danelaw surname from a manor originally spelled Swedish in the North Riding of Jórvík owned by a man with an Old Swedish name who also owned another Viking manor in the East Riding earlier between 1066-1086, recorded by the Domesday Book.

    Despite this Swedish onomastic evidence seen with the same forename--and father Björn--on a Christian runestone near Gamla Uppsala and Crusader parish records in Swedish Finland, another subclade than my own of R-BY30613 has one hit in Southern Denmark near Jelling as well as found amongst other English surnames. R-S6285 subclades appear to originate with Götaland and radiate in different directions: R-BY30613 from Skåneland towards Denmark and the Danelaw; R-YP6270 from Västergötland to Denmark and the Trøndelag; R-YP4638 from Östergötland towards Finland and Warsaw.
    Last edited by Björnsson; 10-01-22 at 11:07.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Somerled's YDNA certainly appears to have been R-YP326 . Based on the phylogeny , his lineage seems to have come straight from Norway to the Hebrides and missed out the Northern Isles entirely in terms of settlement . His closest Norwegian matches (under YP330) are found in More og Romsdal on the west coast and in more southern areas around lakes Mjosa and Randsfjorden. His lineage has left no trace on the Isle of Man , which is problematic if he is Ui Imair , as that is where they were active and left descendant rulers. And it is also problematic for the clan Donald traditions that said his family came from Ireland as exiles, again where the Ui Imair were very active . There is no evidence for this in his YDNA . I suspect his lineage arrived in the Hebrides between 850-950 AD when there is the first identifiable archaeological evidence of Norse burials and material culture in the region , and gradually built up a power base there .

    Early sources point to the Clann Somhairle connections to Ui imair as being crucial in establishing their legitimacy over the Isles , but it seems to me this connection is via Ragnhild, Somerled's wife , not through the paternal line . However , in praise poems to his immediate descendants , it mentions them as descending from a Gofraid (Godred Crovan , via Ragnhild , in all probability) but also an Olaf the White . This could mean the Ui Imair dynast Olaf Konungr , a distant ancestor of Ragnhild , but also perhaps related to Somerled himself .

    There exists a lineage on Man also under R1a-Z284 , but under the big Z287 branch instead , which is again clearly Norwegian in origin . This may represent the Ui Imair , or another branch of it , but there is no documentary evidence linking these modern samples to the kings of Man , whereas there is abundant evidence connecting modern branches of Clans MacDonald , MacDougall and McKane etc to a common R-YP326 ancestor , Somerled.

    of Man , unlike .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bernicia View Post
    Somerled's YDNA certainly appears to have been R-YP326 . Based on the phylogeny , his lineage seems to have come straight from Norway to the Hebrides and missed out the Northern Isles entirely in terms of settlement . His closest Norwegian matches (under YP330) are found in More og Romsdal on the west coast and in more southern areas around lakes Mjosa and Randsfjorden. His lineage has left no trace on the Isle of Man , which is problematic if he is Ui Imair , as that is where they were active and left descendant rulers. And it is also problematic for the clan Donald traditions that said his family came from Ireland as exiles, again where the Ui Imair were very active . There is no evidence for this in his YDNA . I suspect his lineage arrived in the Hebrides between 850-950 AD when there is the first identifiable archaeological evidence of Norse burials and material culture in the region , and gradually built up a power base there .

    Early sources point to the Clann Somhairle connections to Ui imair as being crucial in establishing their legitimacy over the Isles , but it seems to me this connection is via Ragnhild, Somerled's wife , not through the paternal line . However , in praise poems to his immediate descendants , it mentions them as descending from a Gofraid (Godred Crovan , via Ragnhild , in all probability) but also an Olaf the White . This could mean the Ui Imair dynast Olaf Konungr , a distant ancestor of Ragnhild , but also perhaps related to Somerled himself .

    There exists a lineage on Man also under R1a-Z284 , but under the big Z287 branch instead , which is again clearly Norwegian in origin . This may represent the Ui Imair , or another branch of it , but there is no documentary evidence linking these modern samples to the kings of Man , whereas there is abundant evidence connecting modern branches of Clans MacDonald , MacDougall and McKane etc to a common R-YP326 ancestor , Somerled.

    of Man , unlike .
    As far as I know there is no Y-DNA result of Early Scandinavian Dynasties . I curious that Y-DNA of Munsö, Stenkil, Estridsen, Fairhair, Gorm, Hardrada...

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