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Thread: Interesting findings in Albanian Kukes region from Rrenjet Project.

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    Interesting findings in Albanian Kukes region from Rrenjet Project.

    Kukes is the border region of Albania that Run across the entire Albanian-Kosovo border. Several interesting facts have been unravelef from the Y-dna study on Albanian people by the Rrenjet project with possibly explanatory value about the historical events of the last 1000 years conserning North Albania and Kosovo.

    Kukes county is divided in 3 districts:

    -Northmost Tropoje districtT
    -The Has district in the middle
    -The southmost Kukes district

    75 samples have been collected. Not an extremely big sample, but it is big enough to be suggestive for the 2 out of the 3 districts. Distributed as bellow:

    - Tropoje District, 47 samples
    - Has district, 2 samples
    - Kukes district, 26 samples

    The Y-dna lineages breakdown of each district(Tropoje-Kukes) show significant differences between the two regions. Tropoje profile is :

    E-v13 14 30%
    R1b-z2705 6 13%
    J2b-ph1751 27 57%
    J1 0
    I1 0
    I2 0
    E-m123 0
    R1a 0
    T/L/G 0
    Other 0



    Kukes:
    E-V13 6 23%
    R1b-z2705 4 15%
    J2b-ph1751 1 4%
    J2b-FT125046 3 12%
    I1 0
    12 3 12%
    E-m123 3 12%
    R1a 4 15%
    L/T/G 0
    Other 2 8%

    Already are obvious the deep contrasts between the 2 districts, but even that is illusory and doesn't quite depict the sharpness of the differences. It is only when you analyse further the results on the bases of clades that the differences begin to show their true dimensions. But Albanian population is divided in clans . Once you further refine the results on the level of the clans you start seeing the whole picture clearly and in a panoramic view.

    Tropoje:

    Clan n main lineage/ % of the total lineages of the clan in Tropoje % of the clad found in region
    Berisha 4 E-v13>y93102 100% 100%
    Gash-Bardhë 2 E-v13>ph2180 100% 25%
    Gash-Shipshan 4 E-v13>ph2180 100% 50%
    Gash i Gurit 2 J2b>ph1751 100% 7.5%
    Bytyc 4 R1b->2705 100% 80%
    Krasniqe * 22 J2b>ph1751 91% 74%
    Nikaj ** 6 J2b>ph1751 82% 18.5%
    Other 3 E-v13>by4684 +E-v13>BY32610 +
    R1b->2705

    *Rest 2 E-v13>ph2180
    ** One R1b->2705

    Kukes District:

    Either clan system weak in K.D.(which in itself is evidence of origins) or the samples were not classified according to o the Fis system. Still we can break down the results by blade, which show added differences with Tropoje region.

    Of the he classified samples for:
    -E-v13, 2 are y173822 and one ph2180, every clade assosiated with a different clan.y173822 is usually found in the coastal areas of North Albania and in the South.

    - Of J2b-L283 almost all it is FT125046, usually assosiated with the Hot Clan around lake Shkoder, and not ph1751.

    -Of the E-m123 all of it is L791 and not M84 usually found in the rest of Albania.





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    Interesting. And... waiting for the punchline.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Interesting. And... waiting for the punchline.
    Huge discovery


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    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuk%C3%ABs_County
    The e-m123 in kukes district is as you
    Mention correctly e-L791 i know that thry tested with yseq company
    And farther they are e-y4972 ( not so far from napoleon)
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe
    phenotype
    :
    gracile- med

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    Above of E-Y93102 =
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC33614/

    The whole clade looks to me like a fairly early incoming Daco-Thracian lineage with Channelled Ware, with an ideal entry date of 3.100 BP, which equals the transitional LBA-EIA period (1.200-1.100 BC roughly +/- 200 years depending on the region). Very recent founder effect for Albanians, but old in the region.

    Beside the Bulgarian and the Albanian subclade, what's the third: E-BY6162

    Is it Albanian too? Three samples without flags.

    Contrary to that, https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2180/ looks to me more like coming from a later Hallstatt timing, for sure not earlier than the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, possibly even with later Pannonians or Vlachs, Slavs rather not, but can't be excluded. In any case with a fairly recent, but also quite big founder effect. The date is ideal with a Late Antiquity/migration period timing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuk%C3%ABs_County
    The e-m123 in kukes district is as you
    Mention correctly e-L791 i know that thry tested with yseq company
    And farther they are e-y4972 ( not so far from napoleon)
    Did not know that.

    But don't let youtube anthropogenetics Albanians read what you wrote. Ive had the pleasure to read plenty of times how Napoleons Italian ancestry was of Albanian origin.

    I am not saying its impossible. I am just saying its probably impossible to prove. Hence it should sat in youtube comments

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Did not know that.
    But don't let youtube anthropogenetics Albanians read what you wrote. Ive had the pleasure to read plenty of times how Napoleons Italian ancestry was of Albanian origin.
    I am not saying its impossible. I am just saying its probably impossible to prove. Hence it should sat in youtube comments
    It is just a coincidence
    We got also the late viking age
    Polish autosomally from gotland vk474
    ( he wasnt e-m84 either he was e-L791)
    https://www.genetichomeland.com/welc...1&chromosome=Y

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y4972/


    P.s
    Napoleon belong to e-y58897
    He isnt exactly like those albanian from kukes
    I only mention that they are not that far from him thats all
    Last edited by kingjohn; 14-08-21 at 05:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    It is just a coincidence
    We got also the late viking age
    Polish autosomally from gotland vk474
    ( he wasnt e-m84 either he was e-L791)
    https://www.genetichomeland.com/welc...1&chromosome=Y

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y4972/


    P.s
    Napoleon belong to e-y58897
    He isnt exactly like those albanian from kukes
    I only mention that they are not that far from him thats all
    Thanks for the clarification!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Above of E-Y93102 =
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC33614/

    The whole clade looks to me like a fairly early incoming Daco-Thracian lineage with Channelled Ware, with an ideal entry date of 3.100 BP, which equals the transitional LBA-EIA period (1.200-1.100 BC roughly +/- 200 years depending on the region). Very recent founder effect for Albanians, but old in the region.

    Beside the Bulgarian and the Albanian subclade, what's the third: E-BY6162

    Is it Albanian too? Three samples without flags.

    Contrary to that, https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2180/ looks to me more like coming from a later Hallstatt timing, for sure not earlier than the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, possibly even with later Pannonians or Vlachs, Slavs rather not, but can't be excluded. In any case with a fairly recent, but also quite big founder effect. The date is ideal with a Late Antiquity/migration period timing.
    That's my subclade, we share the closest subclade with someone from Italy 2400 YBP then from Bulgaria Plovdiv previously known as Philipopolis. There is far more FGC33621 in Central-Western Europe though, i mean by diversity as far as i remember, recently a German from South-West was FGC33621.

    As far as Berisha concerns there is one rumour where one Albanian says that people were saying Berisha came from Black Sea and they are descended from Odrysians. Funny enough, maybe a coincidence one of Odrysians princes was called Berisades. Then the closest subclade to Berisha are called Sopi, though the name Sopi, who they got it could be quite recent, totally unknown how they got this label, there is a lot of toponyms both ancient Balkan and in and around Hungary and Poland with this word Sopi.

    Like, descendants of Odrysians called Sapae, Dardanian botanical name Sopitis, some toponyms, places/city in and around North/Central Balkans with Sopi. I don't really know the origin of this word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Above of E-Y93102 =
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC33614/

    The whole clade looks to me like a fairly early incoming Daco-Thracian lineage with Channelled Ware, with an ideal entry date of 3.100 BP, which equals the transitional LBA-EIA period (1.200-1.100 BC roughly +/- 200 years depending on the region). Very recent founder effect for Albanians, but old in the region.

    Beside the Bulgarian and the Albanian subclade, what's the third: E-BY6162

    Is it Albanian too? Three samples without flags.
    Albanians in the Ottoman empire had a relatively high geographic mobility, mainly due to being the bulk of the ottoman armies in west-central and south Balkans, as well as being the administrative class in half the Balkanian villayets/pashaliks. They controlled all the area from Athens to Bosnia to the Bulgarian borders. Some genetic remnants of that dispersion must have survived to this day, in spite the forceful population movements with the Balkanic wars.

    E-Y9310, It is the overwhelmingly dominant lineage in the Berisha clan. Berisha clan is also responsible for almost all of the Y93102 lineages, either be North Albania or Kosovo. It seems like it originated from Kosovo, but appearances can be deceiving.It doesnt seem to exist in Kosovo serbs.

    Contrary to that, https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-PH2180/ looks to me more like coming from a later Hallstatt timing, for sure not earlier than the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon, possibly even with later Pannonians or Vlachs, Slavs rather not, but can't be excluded. In any case with a fairly recent, but also quite big founder effect. The date is ideal with a Late Antiquity/migration period timing.
    L241-Ph2180 is found in the south-east of Shkodra lake all the way to Tropoje and from there to Kosovo.Whereas Y93102 has the opposite trajectory, from Kosovo to Tropoje and some a little further.
    ev13.jpg
    PH2180 and Y93102 being so in such proximity to each other but not really intersecting(found mostly in different tribes each) alludes to one of them arriving recently( or Both) in the Region of Tropoje.

    The oral historical tradition speak of the first tribe to migrate in the area was the Gashi tribes that allegedly came from the area around lake Shkodra. Afterwards Krasniqe arrived and Nikaj split off from it.

    So in conclusion if we break down of the Clans based on the dominant main lineages :

    Haplogroup/clade Clan/Fis
    J2b-ph1751 Krasnique, Nikaj ,and Gurit in Gash area
    R1b-Z2705 Bytyc
    Ev13-L241-Ph2180 Bardh and Ships in Gash area
    Ev13-Y93210 Berishe

    They are also Geographically concentrated:

    clans of Ghegs 3 - tropoje.jpg

    Of course all those population movements are in recent history, with in the last millennia, and quite possibly towards the second half of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuk%C3%ABs_County
    The e-m123 in kukes district is as you
    Mention correctly e-L791 i know that thry tested with yseq company
    And farther they are e-y4972 ( not so far from napoleon)
    Do you know any data that sub-categorize the E-m123 in Fyrom, Bulgaria and Turkey?
    There would lay a decisive answer whether the E-m123 found in the area, is recent or from an ancient population migration.

    As for the Kukes district in general, it seems it incorporate a lot of Slavic Muslims. After all the Gorani Muslim Slavic minority in Kosovo is across the border. Gorani may be the reason the specific clade of E-m123 is registering in the Region. They are are more of Bulgarian origins than Serbian.
    1024px-Krahina_e_Gorës_–_(Gora_region).svg.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Parapolitikos View Post
    Do you know any data that sub-categorize the E-m123 in Fyrom, Bulgaria and Turkey?
    There would lay a decisive answer whether the E-m123 found in the area, is recent or from an ancient population migration.

    As for the Kukes district in general, it seems it incorporate a lot of Slavic Muslims. After all the Gorani Muslim Slavic minority in Kosovo is across the border. Gorani may be the reason the specific clade of E-m123 is registering in the Region. They are are more of Bulgarian origins than Serbian.
    1024px-Krahina_e_Gorës_–_(Gora_region).svg.jpg

    well

    in turkey
    you got this latest research they are mainly a mixture of e-m84 and e-L791

    https://5iqtethmlu466hybm4gxuab2oe-a...IiII0/htmlview



    in bulgaria

    only 2 uploaded there file to yfull
    a bulgraian orthodox ( e-L791)

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y11825*/

    and a bulgarian pomak ( E-M84> E-Y5427> FGC18401 )

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y129333/


    the pomak sit on a branch that is related to very slavic branch of e-m84
    with russians and a poles ( non-jews)

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-Y129270/





    in macedonia

    i have no clue no results that are y sequenced as far as i know

    it seems there is 1 case of macedonian from krecove
    who is acording to this albanian site before there was rerenjet he is E-L791> E-Y4972

    https://i.imgur.com/mDC6GCE.png

    https://i.imgur.com/nhI9RYr.jpg



    p.s
    generally speaking in all those countries
    it is possible some of e-m34( like e-L791)
    came during roman times or they are descendents of romaniotes to some extent
    it is possible the e-m84 is related to turkish colonisation
    or it might be earlier
    Last edited by kingjohn; 27-08-21 at 19:38.

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