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Thread: Similar words between Latin and Gaulish Celtic

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Moesan: Spanish and Italian : I doubt it would be possible for basic Italian and Spanish not knowledged speakers to understand each other, only in some short statements, and not for all everyday needs, how basic could be these needs.
    hombre : uomo – mujer : moglie – hijo : figlio – hermano : fratello – sobrino : nipote - primo : cugino niño : bambino - ternero : vitello – carnero : castrato – morueco : montone - cordero : agnello -
    oveja : pecora – perro : cane – ave/pajaro : ucello -
    espaldas : dorso – ojo : occhio – hombro : spalla – pierna : gamba – anca : coscia -
    lluva : pioggia – hierro : ferro – cobre : rame – plata : argento -
    bruno : moreno – amarillo : giallo – limpio : pulito – sucio : sporco – lleno : pieno – viejo : vecchio -
    ventana : finestra – patio : cortile – huerto : giardino – mesa : tavola – vaso/copa : bicchiere -
    aceite : olio – carretera : strada – manzana : pomo/mela – dia : giorno -
    mirar : guardare – comer : mangiare – matar : uccidere/ammazzare – tomar/coger : prendere/pigliare esperar/aguardar : attendere/aspettare – entender : comprendere – salir : uscire/sortire – subir : salire llorar : piangere …


    Look, as a native French speaker I could pick up Italian in only two months of studying in Rome and could pass for a native speaker afterwards. I also learned Spanish in a few months, although I haven't used it that much since then. But it was extremely easy compared to learning Japanese, Chinese or Russian (which I have all learned, although only reached an advanced level in Japanese by lack of time for the other two).

    I never learned Portuguese but can understand 80% of written Portuguese and reasonably well spoken Brazilian Portuguese (the accent from Portugal takes more getting used to). Yet I wouldn't say I am gifted for languages. I was dead last in Dutch class at school most years. My natural aptitude was always more for sciences and history than for languages. So if I can learn Italian or Spanish in a few months, why couldn't Roman legionaries do it with Gaulish? After all Caesar's legions stayed nearly 10 years in Gaul and they had plenty of free time between battles, which they spent in local taverns and, well probably also brothels... places where it's easy to assimilate a new language.

    But we have to keep in mind that spoken and written languages are not the same
    I know. I have learned over 10 languages. I also tried for fun to read Wikipedia articles in various Romance languages or dialects (Catalan, Galician, Sardinian, Sicilian, Emilan, Lombard, Occitan, etc.) just to see how much I could understand. I can understand 60 to 90% in written form, though I am sure it would be much less in spoken form (I have also tested in YouTube), but still well over 30% without being familar to the language, and easily over 50% after some getting used to it by hearing it for several hours for a few days.


    In Welsh of th 7th/8th C. ancient -t- were written -d- as ancient -d-
    A 't' that becomes pronounced 'd' or vice versa is hardly an obstacle to understanding. There are usually many ways of pronouncing a same word in English and people still understand each others just fine. Americans say 'better' with a 'd' sound for the double 't' while Brits say 't' and often with a global stop. A word like 'often' can be pronounced with or without the 't' in any variety of English, and some people even use both pronunciations depending on their mood. The thing is that the human mind is very flexible and can easily recognise small variations in a same word. That's why I think ancient Romans and Gauls would have had little problem understanding the words I listed, whatever the local accent. That's especially true if they spoke slowly, which they would have done when dealing with foreigners.
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    Was Brythonic a single language? Presumably the Belgic migrations to Britain brought a language that would have been similar to Gaulish whereas the native Celts would have spoken a language which had evolved from a q-celtic form similar to goidelic.

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    I think we are not speaking of the same thing.
    We were not at first speaking of the ability to learn a language, but the ability to understand a foreign language at first hearing without learn it before. It isn't the same. I can easily read police romants in Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Galician, Asturian/Leonese, it's evident: they share a common origin for the must. And I've to say it depends on the language level too, not always the same. To understand the spoken language at first is another thing. I was not speaking about people lviing in a foreign country: there is a bit of immersion here, and then, NO NEED OF A COMMON ORIGIN OF THE NATIVE AND THE FOREIGN LANGUAGE (just the foreign one will be learned very faster);

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    Quote Originally Posted by youngkeithden View Post
    Was Brythonic a single language? Presumably the Belgic migrations to Britain brought a language that would have been similar to Gaulish whereas the native Celts would have spoken a language which had evolved from a q-celtic form similar to goidelic.
    It seems all Belgae tribes were not speaking the same language (Celtic, Germanic, something like the so called 'Alt Europäisch' of N-W Europe IE).
    On what I read Belgae (Which ones?) were a small and late part of the Britain, rather settled in S-E and East. The P- brittonic dialects whith their -m- > -v- evolution descended rather from other Celts as a whole, of West or/and North ancient Britain.
    otehrwise, yes, some scholars think the first one in Britain would have spoken Qw- Celtic dialects, but I doubt the P- ones were introduced only by Belgae; not resolved.
    )

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Some Gaulish inscriptions in Etruscan alphabet in Italy ; we can see the structures of language were not always exactly the same.
    Texts are hard to read, because of the lack of some letters and some curious cuts in words.




    In Vercelli : Gaulish version in Etruscan local alphabet – let’s notice G > K (Arkantoko) and D > T (teuox, tonion)


    FINIS │CAMPO∙QVEM│DEDIT│ACISIVS│ARGANTOCOMATER │ECVS∙COMVNE M│
    (This is) the boundary to the field which Argantomaterecus gave in common
    DEIS∙ET∙HOMINIB│VS∙ITA VTI LAPIDES│IIII∙STATVTISVNT (underlined : not translated in Gaulish)
    to gods and men; – thus 4 stones have been set up”
    Gaulish version
    AKISIOS∙ARKANTOKO│MATEREKOS∙TO–ŚO│KO-TE AN?TOM TEUOX│TONION EU
    Akisios argantokomaterekos, he gave it, a boundary of gods and people.”


    in Todi (Umbria) :The senses of both the Latin versions are in principle identical:


    Side “A” (Latin version)
    ATEGNATEI DRVTEI∙F∙│..COI]SIS│DRV│TEI∙F∙FRATER│EIVS│MINIMVS∙LO CAV│IT∙ET∙STATVIT
    Side “A” (Gaulish version)
    ATEKNATI∙TRUT│IKNI∙KARNITU│ARTUAŚ KOISIS∙T│RUTIKNOS
    for Ategnatos, a son of Drutos, Koisis erected the stelle, son of Drutos”
    in fact : « « « « , erected the stelle Koisis, Drutos-son.
    The same under :


    Side “B” (Latin version)
    [ATEGNATI∙DRVTI∙F∙│..C]OISIS DRVTI∙F│[F]RATER∙EIVS│[M]INIMVS∙LOCAV.E│[ST]ATVITQVI
    [tomb] of Ategnatos, son of Drutos. Coisis, son of Drutos, his brother youngest, placed [it] and stood”
    Side “B” (Gaulish version)
    [AT]EGNATI∙TRUTI[K]NI │[KAR]NITU∙LOKAN∙KO[I]SIS│[TR]UTIKNOS
    for Ategnatos, a son of Drutos, Koisis erected the tomb, son of Drutos”

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    Some more words, found in Blazak compilation; sorry, some of them has been given already.

    From diverse Gaulish short writings (¤ : in Etruscan alphabet, ° : Greek alphabet, put in ~latin alphabet by myself)




    * ŭoloŭtu wealth
    ° dede offered
    ° matrebo (< matir) to the mothers
    ° nemeton sacred enclosure
    ° sosin this
    ° tooutious citizen
    ¤ -iknoi/¤ -ikni (-igno) descendant of (issued, born by)
    ¤ artuas stelle ?
    ¤ atrebo (< ater) to the fathers
    ¤ karnitu erected (iled stones up?)
    ¤ lokan tomb
    ¤ teuo-x (dêuo-) god
    ¤ tonion (donion) people (persons?)
    andecari amiable
    andernados group of women? -
    anmanbe her names
    bnanom (< beni) of the women
    bricto(m) incantations (magy?)
    buđđuton penis
    bued-it will become ? -
    cambion the bent one
    canti of songs
    celicnon building
    delgu I contain (I hold)
    dessu-mi-is I prepare them
    dona (loan from Latin) wife
    dugiiontiio who worship, worshiping
    duxtir daughter
    esi (v.) is
    etic and
    gabi ! (V.) take ! -
    gnatha, nata girl
    gniíou I know ? -
    gobedbi with smiths
    ibetis ! (V.) drink (thou) ! -
    ieuru (ievrv) offered
    íexsetepudenda’ (sexual parts of body?)
    liciatim letter-writer ? -
    linda drinks ? -
    luxe ! (V.) swear ! -
    meíon small thing ? -
    neđđamon the nearest
    nemnaliíumi I celebrate
    ollon great ? -
    regu-c I straighten
    sesit he has sown ? -
    sue cluio I hear (am hearing) you
    sviorebe (with help of/along with?) sisters
    temuelle dark
    toncnaman oath ? -
    toncsiíont-io will swear ? -
    uidlu(i)(a) vision ? -


    other words of the calendars :


    (a)edrini > summer ? -
    allo-s > other
    amm/an > time, moment
    amat-u > not good (incomplete, here)
    cantlos/cantli > song
    cingo-s > course
    duman-ni > L. fumus ? -
    elemb-iv > deer
    eqqvos > horse ? -
    giamon-i > winter
    laget > diminishing
    lat(-ion?) > day
    lovdin > grow- ? -
    mat-u > good
    novx, -nox- > night
    ogron(n)-i > cold
    prinni (< prenne?) > tree, tree wood)
    ratis > fern
    rivros/rivri > intensive cold
    samon-i > summer
    semivis/simiviso(nn) > half-spring
    sindiv > today
    sonno- > sun

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    in Blazak compilation too:

    from ‘De nobilibus Gallicis’ gloses :


    ambe > brook, stream
    anam > marsh
    auallo > apple
    are > before, in front of
    brio > bridge
    doro > entry, dor
    dunum > mountain
    lautro > bath
    more > sea
    nanto > valley
    nate > son ( ? < gnate?)
    onno > river
    prenne > big tree
    roth > steep
    treide > foot


    In late Latin, words borrowed from Gaulish, in glosesby diverse classical authors: Pliny, Festus, Diodorus of Sicily, Cicero, Suetonius ... authors (see LG 204–06; Schmidt 1967; Sowa 1998)


    acaunumarga <
    akaunon < akmanon* stone
    marga > margila marl
    alauda lark
    ambactus vassal,
    andabat(t)a « fighting blind » gladiator
    ando- blind
    attegia hut, cottage
    tegia house, roof
    beber (bebrum) beaver (in late Latin, before : Lat- fiber)
    beccus beak, bill
    benna kind of carriage
    beta, betulla birch
    brācae/brācēs breeches, trousers
    bracis malt <
    braciaca (Gaul.) of beer
    brogae field
    brogilus small field? -
    brucaria heather
    bulga leathern knapsack, bag
    camminus road (7th Cy!)
    carrus two wheeled wagon
    cateia kind of spear
    cauannos owl
    cis(s)ium two wheeled cabriolet
    cleta hamper, hurdle
    combrus felled trees
    couinnus war chariot
    crocina suit of the skin
    curucus craft (boat?) covered by skin
    damma roe, gazelle
    drungus troop of enemies
    esox fish (pike?)
    essedum two-wheeled war chariot (with a seat?!?)
    gaesum spear, javelin
    gladius sword
    glastum blue colour
    gulbia beak, bill
    iotta soup of a milk, mash
    lancea spear
    leucas/leuga league, Gaulish mile
    linna mantle
    mannus pony, little horse
    nausum ship
    olca arable field
    petorritum four wheeled chariot
    petia > pecia piece
    pititus small
    riga (late) < *rica furrow
    rodarum plant with the leaves which become red
    rusca bark
    sagum/sagus/saga Gaulish tunic
    sugia (late) soot
    taratrum borer, gimlet
    tarinca > taringa iron nail
    taxō badger
    uassus vassal, servant
    uātēs, uātis prophet, poet
    uerēdus post horse
    vertragus kind of a hound
    trag-* foot
    uiriola bracelets

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    It seems all Belgae tribes were not speaking the same language (Celtic, Germanic, something like the so called 'Alt Europäisch' of N-W Europe IE).
    On what I read Belgae (Which ones?) were a small and late part of the Britain, rather settled in S-E and East. The P- brittonic dialects whith their -m- > -v- evolution descended rather from other Celts as a whole, of West or/and North ancient Britain.
    otehrwise, yes, some scholars think the first one in Britain would have spoken Qw- Celtic dialects, but I doubt the P- ones were introduced only by Belgae; not resolved.
    )
    The link between the ancient Britons and Belgae deserves to be further investigated. Apart from the fact that some Belgic tribes like the Atrebates settled in Britain, it is likely that the Brythonic Celts originally crossed from the continent to Britain via Belgium and the Nord-Pas-de-Calais, as it is the closest crossing point.

    Additionally the proportion of R1b-L21 within the P312 branch is relatively high in Belgium (33% in western Belgium, 22% in eastern Belgium). The only part of France where this proportion is higher is in Brittany (53% of P312 is L21), where there was a huge backflow of Britons in the Late Antiquity. The high proportion is L21 with Celtic R1b in Belgium is not evident at first sight because over half of all Belgian R1b is now Germanic U106, so the absolute percentage of L21 only makes up 9% of the population - much less than in Brittany (37.5%). But before Roman times it would have been the dominant form of R1b.

    Last but not least, all modern Belgian individuals that I ran in MyTrueAncestry (for what it's worth) had almost only British Celtic and ancient Belgic connections and hardly any Gaulish or Gallo-Roman ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The link between the ancient Britons and Belgae deserves to be further investigated. Apart from the fact that some Belgic tribes like the Atrebates settled in Britain, it is likely that the Brythonic Celts originally crossed from the continent to Britain via Belgium and the Nord-Pas-de-Calais, as it is the closest crossing point.

    Additionally the proportion of R1b-L21 within the P312 branch is relatively high in Belgium (33% in western Belgium, 22% in eastern Belgium). The only part of France where this proportion is higher is in Brittany (53% of P312 is L21), where there was a huge backflow of Britons in the Late Antiquity. The high proportion is L21 with Celtic R1b in Belgium is not evident at first sight because over half of all Belgian R1b is now Germanic U106, so the absolute percentage of L21 only makes up 9% of the population - much less than in Brittany (37.5%). But before Roman times it would have been the dominant form of R1b.

    Last but not least, all modern Belgian individuals that I ran in MyTrueAncestry (for what it's worth) had almost only British Celtic and ancient Belgic connections and hardly any Gaulish or Gallo-Roman ones.
    I have no clue concerning the today Belgians people compared to Gauls or Gallo-Romans, helas. What I read in some amateurs runs is that some Hallstatt people (how much? very few i suppose) would have been very close to modern Belgians and so to Northern French people, not so close to today islander Celts (drift?). Some other simulations seem showing that Bavarian (Lech) Late BA people had ties with today Auvergne, Bavaria, Brittany, so that there are differences but some important sharings too. If you can send us some of YOUR runs, it would be welcome.
    Concerning Y-R1b-L21, I'm almost sure yes, that at first it was spread allover North-Western Europe and even in more central places before being overwhelmed by a new flood of Y-R1b, U152 this time (U152 is strong enough too among Walloons and Western Germans, not?), and yes, the most easy way to go to Isles was in Northern France; but L21 is not so weak in Northern Iberia, and it shows it was spread in West too, not only in North. ATW we know to date the tribes names of the "Jules" period or close to it, not the previous situation; we can suppose North France was settled by Gaulish tribes before Belgae came (from Bohemia/Northern Bavaria?).
    To complicate the scheme, it seems that the known language of the Belgae was different but close to Gaulish Celtic (Strabon)and to the Britton (Tacite); even Ligurian was considered as close enough to Gaulish (Tite-Live, but here we can be cautious: in Alps there were an imbrication of Gaulish and Ligurian tribes, so...), only Aquitanian was considered as completely different from Gaulish, closer to Iberian (Strabon). So, it's difficult to tell the part taken by Gauls and Belgae in the formation of insular Celtic languages. ATW the P- Celtic dialects were present in the most part of Gaul even if we can imagine some Qw- dialects here and there, not proven to date.

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    Just to compare (and to separate lexicon ties and phonetic ties)


    Supposed correspondances between Celtic and Slavic langages :


    These words are rather I-Ean cognates common in more than two families, but here their forms are quite close (the roots at least), so I put them here, without aim to prove some prevalent proximity between Celtic and Slavic languages ! Surely I ‘ll find more words.
    Slavic, as Germanic and Celtic, seems having made B- of *Bh- when Latin made F- and Greek Ph-
    and G- of *Gh- when Latin made H- (faded to date) and Greek Kh-, and D- of *Dh- when Lati made F- and Greek Th- ; without going into details it seems Italic had a very specific stops evolution that put him finally far enough from Celtic and could evoke more southeast-central Europe for a late stage...


    Welsh twp < > Czech tupy stupid
    Welsh tyw, Breton tew thick < > Czech těžky heavy, difficult
    Irish, Gaelic fliuch, Welsh gwlyb, Breton gwleb < > Czech vlhkŷhumid, wet, vlàha humidity, Serbo-Croat vlaga,Russian vlàžnost’ (radic. *vlag)
    Welsh neu, Breton no (obsolete) < > Czech nebo or
    Welsh gaeaf, Breton goañv <> Czech ziměwinter
    ? Welsh brân, Breton bran < > Czech vràna, Croatian/Serbian/Slovenian vrana, Polish wrona crow,maybe cognate with English wren ?
    Breton gwrac’h witch, old woman < > vràsa wrinkling, creasing
    Irish talamh < > Serbo-Croat tlo soil, ground
    Breton gleup/skleup < > Serbo-Croatian glup,Polish głupi, Russian glup’ij dumb, stupid
    Gaelic olann, Welsh gwlan, Breton gwlan/gloan,Czech vlna, Serbo-Croatian vuna, Bulgarian vălna wool
    & : it seems Slavs have more than a term for ‘wool’ ; detailed sorts or diverse origin ?
    ? Welsh bri prestige, Breton bri prestige, esteem, respect + Welsh bre, Breton brelow mountain, hill < > Serbo-Croatian breg hill < >Bulgarian brjag coast, strand, bank, Polish brzeg coast, strand (cf German berg)
    Welsh dôl meadow, dale, Breton dol low ground, river curve < > Bulgariandol, Serbo-Croatian dô, dolina dale, valley, Russian dolina, Polish dolina, Czech ùdolí, cf English dale, German tal
    Welsh dyled, Breton dle (dele)debt < > Polish dług, Czech dluh, Bulgarian dălg, Serbo-Croatian dug, Slovenian dolgadebt
    Welsh gôr pus, Breton gor hot + heath, wooden fuel, abscess, pus < > Polish gorąco , Czech horko, Russian gorjačij, Bulgare gorešto hot (+ warm?)

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It is not clear for what purpose / idea this exercise is done here. Simply listing words without indicating etymology and origin, part of them are IE and others are not.
    You obviously don't understand what you're writing about, because for example you say that
    Aballo Apple
    Beber Beaver
    come from Gaelic to English but this is not true. Libu, Dori , vistu are not from Gaulish.
    The word Apple is explained by the shape of the fruit, but how is it round in Gaulish?
    Or, for example, none of the languages ​​listed below gives the etymology of the word „vrana“ so the meaning of the word does not derive from them:
    "Welsh brân, Breton bran <> Czech vràna, Croatian / Serbian / Slovenian vrana, Polish wrona crow, maybe cognate with English wren?"
    It comes from the color of the bird and has a specific root, like all IE words, which are borrowed in languages ​​such as German, Latin, French, Greek, English ... which are not Indo-E by origin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blablabla View Post
    It is not clear for what purpose / idea this exercise is done here. Simply listing words without indicating etymology and origin, part of them are IE and others are not.
    You obviously don't understand what you're writing about, because for example you say that
    Aballo Apple
    Beber Beaver
    come from Gaelic to English but this is not true. Libu, Dori , vistu are not from Gaulish.
    The word Apple is explained by the shape of the fruit, but how is it round in Gaulish?
    Or, for example, none of the languages ​​listed below gives the etymology of the word „vrana“ so the meaning of the word does not derive from them:
    "Welsh brân, Breton bran <> Czech vràna, Croatian / Serbian / Slovenian vrana, Polish wrona crow, maybe cognate with English wren?"
    It comes from the color of the bird and has a specific root, like all IE words, which are borrowed in languages ​​such as German, Latin, French, Greek, English ... which are not Indo-E by origin.
    If something isn't clear, it's your own post! You seem a bit confused.
    Nobody did compare here Gaulish or Celtic to English (English is only for the meaning); one post speak only of words considered as Latin borrowings coming of supposed Gaulish words! Do reread the posts.
    For 'apple' and 'crow' (form, colour) do give your roots; taht said, the mentioned languages are not as a whole only borrowing languages, they are roughly descendants of the same PIE (in the modern so called IE languages, some words could have been borrowed at early IE stages, what could explain the difficulty to attach them to PIE by the common phonetic laws of evolution)
    The first and principal aim of this thread was inter-understanding between Gaulish and Latin so it needed some words for comparison.
    I added the supposed (and effective) cognates between Celtic and Slavic languages to answer to some question in another thread about this very matter, and also to show that family with family, we can found a lot of cognates, IE for the most, not all of them by force (some linguists think by example bran is not Celtic by origin, maybe even not IE; I put it here just as an uncertain other possibility because bran is feminine and then thook regularly the form vran/frân ([vra:n] too) after the article; Celtic at the origin didn't accept words beginning with V- at absolute initial, only by lenition.
    Here you have the reasons of this short preceding post of mine, not complete, by the way.
    IF YOU HAVE ACCEPTED ETYMOLOGIES FOR THESE WORDS (it was not my goal nor this thread goal), YOU MAY POST THEM, and you will not be criticed. You 'll be welcome.

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    What I wrote was not aimed specifically at anyone, but about the whole topic and, accordingly, with specific examples from the topic. I don't have time to go through all of them.
    Who is confused is evident from expressions such as "considered as" or "coming of supposed".
    None of the languages ​​mentioned is a descendant of PIE. They are not even IE by origin. The only thing that makes them part of this formal group today are the borrowings or common loans from the only IE language by origin or for clarity PIE.
    In other words, logically, these languages ​​have different times of historical and cultural origin and a different geographical place of origin, which makes them literally unrelated to PIE. Genetics also supports my claim.
    page 180
    https://ibl.bas.bg/lib/ber/#page/274/mode/2up
    page 762
    https://ibl.bas.bg/lib/ber_4_000-100...e/762/mode/2up

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blablabla View Post
    What I wrote was not aimed specifically at anyone, but about the whole topic and, accordingly, with specific examples from the topic. I don't have time to go through all of them.
    Who is confused is evident from expressions such as "considered as" or "coming of supposed".
    None of the languages ​​mentioned is a descendant of PIE. They are not even IE by origin. The only thing that makes them part of this formal group today are the borrowings or common loans from the only IE language by origin or for clarity PIE.
    In other words, logically, these languages ​​have different times of historical and cultural origin and a different geographical place of origin, which makes them literally unrelated to PIE. Genetics also supports my claim.
    page 180
    https://ibl.bas.bg/lib/ber/#page/274/mode/2up
    page 762
    https://ibl.bas.bg/lib/ber_4_000-100...e/762/mode/2up

    With the same reasoning you and I can say French is not a Romance language which itself was not a Latin Language.
    Every language evolves naturally, phonetically and by words derivation/creation (more or less quickly it's true), with external influences too, OK, and loanwords. So French of today is not French; your point is not stupid but doesn't help because how to name a language? Change naming every generation, everyday even, and for everybody too? The are too much common roots and common "bricks" (minimal elements) shared by what we call IE languages to ignore they came from a common language. Or you have a new theory like an unique sprachbund made of convergent waves from very distinct languages?

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    @Blablabla
    Maybe are you introducing the notion that today so called IE languages are strongly influenced by substrata of pop's which weren't IEan at first?
    almost all of us are OK here, then.

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    Italo-Celtic is a commonly proposed grouping of IE languages. Some believe they split apart only around 1200-1000 BC or so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicu View Post
    Italo-Celtic is a commonly proposed grouping of IE languages. Some believe they split apart only around 1200-1000 BC or so.
    It seems it's become back the mainstream opinion, after some oppositions here and there; what says B. Sergent is that an Italo-Celtic community broke in two parts early enough, what would be showed by the relative little community of lexicon (before Rome empire!). Some linguists (Balts for the most) think that a first large group concerning old basic lexicon and same substratum placed somewhere; this more or less real group would have included Celtic, Italic, Germanic, Albanese, Slavic and Baltic but all that sends us far in past.
    The kind "opposition" between Maciamo and me in this thread was about the closeness, not of the proto-Celtic-proto-Italic group but of the late Gaulish and Latin of the Empire (of course before progressive latinisation and two ways borrowings).

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    I 'd say 1000 years is a huge time and can produce terrible effects on language unity in separated communities without common centralised written language!

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    @Blablabla
    Partial complementary answer to your posts #36 & #38r

    The etymology of a word is an uncertain thing which ask for researchs in ancient texts (date of apparition in a certain language) what is not possible for every language in old times. Very often the proposed etymologies are based on reconstructions linking more recent written forms in more than a language to attested ancient forms in others written or transcripted languages, until ever changing reconstructed forms as it’s the case for PIE. All the « étymologies » we have for so called IE languages are hypothesis more or less reliable which imply both recent and ancient written forms and not attested primary forms presented as the original ones born in a time we had no written record for. What we can do is to gather the most numerous possible forms in diverses close langages and try to imagine the intermediary lacking forms in more than a lineage in accord with « logical » phonetic and graphy evolutions. Linguistic isn’t magic science but it isn’t so « hard » a science, spite it stays very interesting and often reliable in its own specific field.



    Concerning vrana for crow, ravenI looked at your link but I don’t read bulgarian spite I ‘ve some idea on the language. I saw it could have been from a dialectal from vran = černa black, colour of the bird more or less (am I right?); ‘vran’ doesn’t mean black so it could be a loanword in celtic (as supposed by scholars) ; but, just to split hairs, could it not be that the meaning black come from the bird colour in Slavic and not the opposite ? Just some humor ! The fact is languages borrow words from other langages or dialects, even from the same family (new « picture » or descriptive words, even if the origial common word was not lost at first : French poulehen from Lat. pulla < pullus very small, spite dialects had conserved geline, glaine, guernefrom Lat. gallina) ; todate, at least, French has no word in pol-/poul- with the general meaning of small. Old French had pol chick (attested 12th Cy, what is not a birthdate). Nothing proves French poule has had or not had a more general meaning at first, as in Latin. The fact poule does no more signify small doesn’t signify French had no word for henand borrowed a word from outside, nor that the language the word is supposed to be come from is a foreign one, so that French wouldn’t be a Romance language.

    French did not borrow its basic words from extinct Latin but inherited them directly and impose to them its own evolution as time passed.
    The same occurred for other I-E (I insist) languages I cited above.
    Just a point.

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