28 whole-genome from Neolithic and Bronze Age Croatians. Full paper.

The Roman sample is obviously connected to the Danubian limes. At later stage of the Empire the legionnaires were recruited predominantly in the Eastern parts. After serving their time they were given land in the vicinity and could make blended families with the locals. In this case the haplogroup Ra1-Z2124>Z2122>F1345 may have Anatolian/Middle Eastern origin.[h=2][/h]
 
Note that there were 25 more samples in the study that were excluded from the final results, probably because the DNA was too low quality. Only two of them have Y-haplogroups assigned to them and one of them (POP17) is a Copper Age sample that is R1b-L23. (the other one was a Neolithic man belonging to haplogroup C). The Croatian Copper Age ran approximately from 2900 to 2500 BCE, so just prior to the Bell Beaker phenomenon. That makes it one of the oldest R1b-L23 found outside the Yamna or Corded Ware cultures at present. It also confirms that at least some R1b tribes would have taken the Danubian route to reach Central Europe.

Is it possible to see the exact subclade this R1b-L23 sample was, or its autosomal profile? Together with data in where it was found and the age of it.

For POP17 under "Other IDs" it says: I3499;MathiesonNature2018;capture.data.from.tooth.

So it's the same one from the previously published study The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe, under which I3499 is labeled from the Vucedol Culture, 2884-2666 calBCE, and is R1b-Z2103+ (could not be classified any deeper).
 
POP04, 4700-4300 BCE, Sopot culture, Middle Neolithic, is most likely under J2a haplogroup, as there is already a J2a-Z6063 from the Sopot Culture from a previous study.

The lack of J2b-L283 is not surprising, IMHO. I would not expect it to show up in Neolithic Croatia. The Middle Bronze Age samples come from a single site in East Croatia (Osijek). Besides, it's more likely by that time J2b-L283 would be found in the western Balkans, as suggested by the fact that we have I4331 in MBA Dalmatia.
 
POP04, 4700-4300 BCE, Sopot culture, Middle Neolithic, is most likely under J2a haplogroup, as there is already a J2a-Z6063 from the Sopot Culture from a previous study.
The lack of J2b-L283 is not surprising, IMHO. I would not expect it to show up in Neolithic Croatia. The Middle Bronze Age samples come from a single site in East Croatia (Osijek). Besides, it's more likely by that time J2b-L283 would be found in the western Balkans, as suggested by the fact that we have I4331 in MBA Dalmatia.
Thanks
For the link (y)
I will keep it to a person who i paid
For his test expecting him to be e1b1b1
He turn j2a :LOL:
P.s
So those ancient dna link is pretty cool:cool-v:
 
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I don't want to spoil the thread, but you are specifically talking about E-L618/E-V13, there was none to some single wolfs even on coastal areas. The migration toward Danubo-Carpathian basin happened in Middle Bronze Age, upcoming papers will resolve the issue. I mean a quick eye to the whole tree should be self-explanatory that Croatian coast is impossible to be the zero-point origin.

I don't know what worth to give to it, but in ancient Yougoslavija (before breaking off) Montenegro/Cherna Gora was the place of greater variety for Y-E V13 if not the place of denser presence. And this region is not too far from the coastal areas of S-Croatia/Dalmatia, roughly same latitude as Central Bosnija.
 
I don't know what worth to give to it, but in ancient Yougoslavija (before breaking off) Montenegro/Cherna Gora was the place of greater variety for Y-E V13 if not the place of denser presence. And this region is not too far from the coastal areas of S-Croatia/Dalmatia, roughly same latitude as Central Bosnija.

I highly doubt it's Montenegro, more like the Northern shores of ex Yugoslavia, in and around Danube yes.
 
@Hawk: It's a fact, not my imagination; I speak of today Montenegro, not of the ancient one. It 's only an element, whose value concerning past could be discussed, I agree, but it's a genetic fact.
 
Note that there were 25 more samples in the study that were excluded from the final results, probably because the DNA was too low quality. Only two of them have Y-haplogroups assigned to them and one of them (POP17) is a Copper Age sample that is R1b-L23. (the other one was a Neolithic man belonging to haplogroup C). The Croatian Copper Age ran approximately from 2900 to 2500 BCE, so just prior to the Bell Beaker phenomenon. That makes it one of the oldest R1b-L23 found outside the Yamna or Corded Ware cultures at present. It also confirms that at least some R1b tribes would have taken the Danubian route to reach Central Europe.

yes, that is interesting

Yamna is almost excluisively R1b-Z2103
R1b-L51 has nothing to do with Yamna, except that R1b-Z2103 and R1b-L51 have the same ancestor

probably R1b-M269 were among the Khalynsk/Repin people that merged with the people from the Caucasus to become fishers/HG in the Pontic Caspian steppe around 6 ka
from there the ancestors of R1b-L51 moved west toward the Carpathian Basin
 
Finally, an individual dated to Roman times exhibits an ancestry profile that is broadly present in the region today, adding an important data point to the substantial shift in ancestry that occurred in the region between the Bronze Age and today. ( page 1 abstract)
P.s
They speak about thr r1a-z93 dude here:unsure:

The Roman sample is obviously connected to the Danubian limes. At later stage of the Empire the legionnaires were recruited predominantly in the Eastern parts. After serving their time they were given land in the vicinity and could make blended families with the locals. In this case the haplogroup Ra1-Z2124>Z2122>F1345 may have Anatolian/Middle Eastern origin.

It has nothing to do with Anatolia or Middle East. PO23 most probably was a member of the Sarmatian tribe of Iazyges who lived in the very vicinity of Beli Manastir in Baranja i.e. to the northeast of the site and region the sample was found. In the very calibrated age the Iazyges became diplomatically and culturally very connected to the Romans and with their help built limes (Devil's Dykes) against Gothic incursions, but the defence didn't hold up and were conquered by the Goths and Huns by the end of the 4th century. Many also entered the Roman army. The Sarmatian tribes came from Eastern Europe like the Slavic ancestors of Croats and Hungarians (not to mention the theory which considers that some early Slavs could have been part of the Limigantes).

The paper made a very poor analysis of individual samples and poor final conclusion in the context of the contemporary Croatian population genetics, basing it only a single sample (POP23) ignoring his Y-DNA and atDNA by which obviously isn't a representatitve of Romans or autochthonous population from the Roman period (which could easily verify by comparison with other archaeogenetic samples from other papers); which has great similarities with the modern population of Croats and Hungarians (!) who are mostly descendants of medieval Slavic migrants from Eastern Europe but where R-Z93 is also in low frequencies; in the research have no Slavic samples to compare; yet still come to the illogical conclusion that the next and hence medieval population upheavals were not as significant as the previous ones because today's genetic structure was formed already in the Roman period.
 
@Hawk: It's a fact, not my imagination; I speak of today Montenegro, not of the ancient one. It 's only an element, whose value concerning past could be discussed, I agree, but it's a genetic fact.

Facts need to be posted, a data analysis of all available samples categorized by countries. It's not just writing "it's a fact". I am curious about this, where did you got the information?
 
It has nothing to do with Anatolia or Middle East. PO23 most probably was a member of the Sarmatian tribe of Iazyges who lived in the very vicinity of Beli Manastir in Baranja i.e. to the northeast of the site and region the sample was found. In the very calibrated age the Iazyges became diplomatically and culturally very connected to the Romans and with their help built limes (Devil's Dykes) against Gothic incursions, but the defence didn't hold up and were conquered by the Goths and Huns by the end of the 4th century. Many also entered the Roman army. The Sarmatian tribes came from Eastern Europe like the Slavic ancestors of Croats and Hungarians (not to mention the theory which considers that some early Slavs could have been part of the Limigantes).
The paper made a very poor analysis of individual samples and poor final conclusion in the context of the contemporary Croatian population genetics, basing it only a single sample (POP23) ignoring his Y-DNA and atDNA by which obviously isn't a representatitve of Romans or autochthonous population from the Roman period (which could easily verify by comparison with other archaeogenetic samples from other papers); which has great similarities with the modern population of Croats and Hungarians (!) who are mostly descendants of medieval Slavic migrants from Eastern Europe but where R-Z93 is also in low frequencies; in the research have no Slavic samples to compare; yet still come to the illogical conclusion that the next and hence medieval population upheavals were not as significant as the previous ones because today's genetic structure was formed already in the Roman period.

Tend to agree
I doubt it that the r1a-z93 was middle eastern
He is to much northern autosomally speaking
Has the higheat yamnaya component
In the graph from the paper maciamo posted:unsure:
 
Tend to agree
I doubt it that the r1a-z93 was middle eastern
He is to much northern autosomally speaking
Has the higheat yamnaya component
In the graph from the paper maciamo posted:unsure:

Indeed, in the study is said, quote, "Our single individual from Popova zemlja, Croatia_Pop_RomanP, provides rare genomic data for Croatia after the Bronze Age33. (Table 1, Fig. 4a, Supplementary Table S1). We find this individual clustering with present-day populations of Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania in PCA and UMAP space (Figs. 2, 3c).We investigated this clustering with f4-statistics and could confirm cladality of this individual with present-day Croatians compared to other ancient and present-day populations in Europe (Supplementary Table S7). We then tested population continuity with qpWave, and found Croatia_RomanP was consistent with forming a genetic clade with present-day Croatians, as well as Bulgarians or Hungarians (p = 0.78 respectively) (Supplementary Table S4)". That's impossible if is of Anatolian or Middle Eastern origin.

not only that, at FTDNA we seemingly have some R-F1345 > CTS6 > Y2619 samples in Hungary and Eastern Croatia - exactly where you would expect them. Whether they are directly related to Iazyges remains to be seen, but it seems to be the most plausible theory for now.
 
R-Y2619 as we know has the strong Middle Eastern and Ashkenazi Jewish cluster but until we know sample's positive/negative SNPs we can only guess. Who knows, POP23 possibliy belonged to some unknown (sub)clade.
 
Indeed, in the study is said, quote, "Our single individual from Popova zemlja, Croatia_Pop_RomanP, provides rare genomic data for Croatia after the Bronze Age33. (Table 1, Fig. 4a, Supplementary Table S1). We find this individual clustering with present-day populations of Croatia, Bulgaria and Romania in PCA and UMAP space (Figs. 2, 3c).We investigated this clustering with f4-statistics and could confirm cladality of this individual with present-day Croatians compared to other ancient and present-day populations in Europe (Supplementary Table S7). We then tested population continuity with qpWave, and found Croatia_RomanP was consistent with forming a genetic clade with present-day Croatians, as well as Bulgarians or Hungarians (p = 0.78 respectively) (Supplementary Table S4)". That's impossible if is of Anatolian or Middle Eastern origin.

not only that, at FTDNA we seemingly have some R-F1345 > CTS6 > Y2619 samples in Hungary and Eastern Croatia - exactly where you would expect them. Whether they are directly related to Iazyges remains to be seen, but it seems to be the most plausible theory for now.


maybe someone can look at pop23 bam file and see his exact branch

about the Iazyges
they were tough opponent :cool-v:
Iazyges-en.png




1024px-028_Conrad_Cichorius%2C_Die_Reliefs_der_Traianss%C3%A4ule%2C_Tafel_XXVIII.jpg


Roman cavalry (left) fighting Sarmatian cavalry (right).[g][134]





Dacia_125.png


Map showing Iazyges in AD 125 west of Roman Dacia




800px-Marcomannia_e_Sarmatia_171-175_dC.jpg


The 174-175 Roman offensive onto Iazigi





800px-Limes4-en.png


The Limes (Devil's Dykes) built between Roman territory and the tribes (contours around Iazyges' territory).[135][136]


800px-Pannonia03_en.png


Iazyges in the 4th century at left bank of Danube (Gepids, Hasdingi), neighboring Gotini are replaced with SuebicQuadi
 
Facts need to be posted, a data analysis of all available samples categorized by countries. It's not just writing "it's a fact". I am curious about this, where did you got the information?

I agree; but here I read it in an old survey about Y-Haplos of ancient (20th Cy) Yugoslavija. I'm "Celtic" French and I 've no reason to have agenda. I am not sure I 'll can put my hand on this survey, I 'll try to do it but if I can't you may consider I'm telling fairies tales, just, it would be a pity for you.
 
maybe someone can look at pop23 bam file and see his exact branch

about the Iazyges
they were tough opponent :cool-v:
Iazyges-en.png




1024px-028_Conrad_Cichorius%2C_Die_Reliefs_der_Traianss%C3%A4ule%2C_Tafel_XXVIII.jpg


Roman cavalry (left) fighting Sarmatian cavalry (right).[g][134]





Dacia_125.png


Map showing Iazyges in AD 125 west of Roman Dacia




800px-Marcomannia_e_Sarmatia_171-175_dC.jpg


The 174-175 Roman offensive onto Iazigi





800px-Limes4-en.png


The Limes (Devil's Dykes) built between Roman territory and the tribes (contours around Iazyges' territory).[135][136]


800px-Pannonia03_en.png


Iazyges in the 4th century at left bank of Danube (Gepids, Hasdingi), neighboring Gotini are replaced with SuebicQuadi


one can assume by your map that since the Vandals and Gepids both come from modern northern poland and are aligned with Goths, then these iazyges could also be

it should look like this in north poland
Vandals, Gepids, and the Goths on both sides of the vistula river delta area
 
It has nothing to do with Anatolia or Middle East. PO23 most probably was a member of the Sarmatian tribe of Iazyges who lived in the very vicinity of Beli Manastir in Baranja i.e. to the northeast of the site and region the sample was found. In the very calibrated age the Iazyges became diplomatically and culturally very connected to the Romans and with their help built limes

Well, this sample may not be a first generation, but have inherited the haplogroup way back. Furthermore, similar autosomal admixture or the same place on the plot may not indicate direct ancestry from the previous people. As only 3 admixtures were considered I wonder how an Anatolian from Roman tines will look like. Maybe less WHD, but definitely a mixture of farmers and Yamnaya. Haplogroups should always be considered when speculating if direct ancestors.

R1a x 2 (Z2124>Z2122 x 1; Z2124>Z2123 x 1) were found in the Viminacium (labeled Serbia_Roman):
As per Kingjohn's recent finding of the abstract mentioning autosomal admixture there:

In this project, we have extracted and analyzed aDNA from ancient Roman and post-Roman individuals (n=69) from 3 settlements located in present-day Serbia: most importantly the capital of Moesia Superior Roman province, Viminacium. Genetic and Radiocarbon dating analyses results point to a high degree of cosmopolitism in Viminacium during the early imperial period. We observe two major groups of individuals: one with a local ancestral signature likely deriving from Balkan Bronze and Iron Age populations, and other with Near Eastern ancestral origin, suggesting strong population movements from the Eastern parts of Empire impacting not only Rome, but also other major cities like Viminacium.

 
Yes in vimincium the r1a-z93 could be from middle east
Along with e-m123 , j1

Viminacium - 28 (labeled Serbia_Roman):

E x 13 (L618 x 6; L618>V13 x 3; Z830 x 1; Z830>M123 x 1; Z1902 x 1; M96 x 1)

G x 5 (PF3148 x 1; PF3148>L91 x 1; P303 x 1; L497 x 1; L497>Z1815 x 1)

R1b x 3 (Z2103 x 1; U106 x 1; U152>L2>Z367 x 1)

R1a x 2 (Z2124>Z2122 x 1; Z2124>Z2123 x 1)

J x 2 (M304 x 1; L24 x 1)

T x 1 (M184)

I1 x 1 (M253)

I2 x 1 (L596)


Timacum Minus, Slog necropolis - 10 (labeled Serbia_Roman):

E x 3 (M35 x 1; L618 x 1; L618>V13 x 1)

J x 3 (M304 x 1; M410 x 1; M241 x 1)

R1b x 2 (Z2103 x 1; Z2103>CTS1450 x 1)

G x 1 (CTS342>FGC12126)

I1 x 1 (Z58>CTS8647)




All the danubian limes was filled
With syrian soldiers :cool-v:
https://www.academia.edu/4623198



P.s
Still it would be better to see pop23 bam file
And final branch
As r1a-z93 also found in north caucasus
And fatyanovo ancient remains from russia:unsure:
Everything is possible
So the finale snp is critical here
 
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See Anthrogenica thread posts from page 332 onward as we already have G25 coordinates. He possibly was some mixed sample, not close to the contemporary Croats and Hungarians as paper suggested which only shows how much the paper was shallow in analysis and conclusions.

Target: ZEM23Distance: 1.8924% / 0.01892436 | ADC: 0.25x RC
26.2 Slovakian
23.4 Romanian
22.4 Spanish_Soria
10.2 Tajik_Yagnobi
9.0 Tajik_Shugnan
5.2 Norwegian
3.6 Tunisian_Rbaya

zem23_sc.txt
-------------- ANCESTRY BREAKDOWN: -------------
27.221% Celtiberian
18.694% Greek
15.365% EastGermanic
14.802% Alanic
14.691% Baltic
3.610% Levantine
1.287% LateGermanic
1.248% Nepal
1.175% Canarian
0.782% Pakistani
0.676% NorthAmerica
0.450% Ugric
------------------------------------------------
Fit error: 0.01403928673197701


This sample has only 15% of Baltic and so much western European and Asian. Very different from modern Croatians.

View attachment 12869

The Slovak is more likely a proxy for local Pannonian BA/IA ancestry.

Now when I think again about it, I think you're right. It's MOSTLY just Pannonian BA/IA ancestry. I've tried recently to model some BA/IA Pannonian samples and indeed they came up mostly Slivakian-l ke.

He could be half local Roman (like the more "southern" Szolad samples), and half Ukrainian Scythian (maybe actually Iazyge or some other group).

View attachment 12870






Target: ZEM23:ZEM23
Distance: 2.1348% / 0.02134841
59.4 Scythian_UKR
40.6 HUN_MA_Szolad

What's important is that this guy does have some totally untypical admixtures for the modern Croatian population that can be easily distinguished unlike those more speculative admixtures which are similar to each other such as the Slavic and the IA Pannonian one.

Target: ZEM23:ZEM23
Distance: 2.0948% / 0.02094809
41.4 Scythian_MDA_o
12.0 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
11.4 HRV_IA
11.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
10.6 Baltic_EST_BA
7.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
3.0 RUS_Late_Xiongnu
3.0 Sarmatian_RUS_Caspian_steppe
0.0 TKM_IA




Target: ZEM23:ZEM23
Distance: 2.0214% / 0.02021422
41.2 Scythian_MDA_o
15.4 HRV_IA
13.0 IRN_Hasanlu_IA
10.8 Baltic_EST_BA
8.8 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
6.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
4.2 HUN_Hun_elite_Antiquity
0.2 TKM_IA
0.0 Sarmatian_RUS_Caspian_steppe


Im not sure if this fella was a sarmatian to be honest. The Z93 clade looks more related to Z93 you find in West Asia and the sample seems to have plenty of West Asian ancestry.

I think this is the simplest explanation.
he has a bigger Scytho-Sarmatian shift than Iron Age Hungarians and most of the Iron Age Moldovans, so some recent ancestry from the steppes further east is very likely.
on the other side is something with late Roman influence, but also with increased WHG/Balto-Slavic-like, and those Szolad samples fit the bill.




ancient_300bce-300ce.txt zem23_sc.txt
-------------- ANCESTRY BREAKDOWN: -------------
13.631% Sarmatian_RUS_Caucasus__MJ38
13.213% Levant_Beirut_ERoman__SFI-11
13.098% FRA_Hauts_De_France_IA__ATT26
11.653% Migration__Kowalewko_9
10.086% RUS_Ingria_IA__VIII5_2
9.598% ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o__RMPR437b
5.331% Migration__Kowalewko_11
4.747% FRA_Occitanie_IA2__PEY163
4.584% FRA_Grand_Est_IA2__ERS86
4.383% Iberia_East_IA__I3324
3.831% ITA_Rome_Imperial__RMPR111
2.852% Sarmatian_Segizsay__SGZ001
1.938% ITA_Rome_Imperial__RMPR69
0.643% NPL_Mebrak_2125BP__M63
0.176% Saka_Tian_Shan__DA55
0.127% TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res__MA2208
0.107% PER_RioUncallane_1800BP__IL4
------------------------------------------------
Fit error: 0.011713414973087354


He looks as a mix of local Pannonian Roman, Sarmatian, Roman Levantine and East Germanic (I added also Kaman Kalehoyuk samples to see if he will get some of Anatolian).

Target: ZEM23:ZEM23
Distance: 2.3116% / 0.02311639
51.2 HUN_MA_Szolad_Roman
45.6 Goth_Kowalewko
3.2 HUN_Hun_elite_Antiquity


But maybe his East Asian is too low for this, in a way.


I would expect more recent mixes from this period, like 1/4 or 1/2 Hunnic. The Gepid and DEU_MA samples are like that.
 
It might be that some r1a-z93
Branches were local to panonnia and moesia
Maybe ... :unsure:


Do you have his values
In k12b ?
 

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