28 whole-genome from Neolithic and Bronze Age Croatians. Full paper.

kingjohn said:
i am not that surprised by the lack of E
the E was
more in coastal dalmatia ( lets remember the zemunica cave e-L618 case)
here in this research most of the samples from deep mainland east croatia:unsure:


p.s
it is pretty cool for r1a guys to see this
in the roman dated sample r1a appear
maybe a lost slav :) ( page 4 in the pdf )
POP23 Beli Manastir-Popovazemlja Roman Period 260–402 calCE Croatia_Pop_RomanP M 962,966 T2f2 R1a1a1b2a2b1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beli_Manastir
Click to expand...

Funnily its the other way around. In the earliest Neolithic peroid, E-L618 was in the coastal zone as well, with the Cardial-Impresso Ware Neolithics. But in later times, they moved up the North, along the Danube. We had Lengyel-Sopot samples form those more Northern areas in Hungary and they had 2 E1b1b samples. They seem to have moved on to the North, into the Carpathians, to spread either with Lengyel-Baden or Tripolye-Cucuteni, from which they entered the Epi-Corded horizon and later transformed, probably from Unetice -> Tumulus -> Urnfield (Gava).
 
Riverman said:
Funnily its the other way around. In the earliest Neolithic peroid, E-L618 was in the coastal zone as well, with the Cardial-Impresso Ware Neolithics. But in later times, they moved up the North, along the Danube. We had Lengyel-Sopot samples form those more Northern areas in Hungary and they had 2 E1b1b samples. They seem to have moved on to the North, into the Carpathians, to spread either with Lengyel-Baden or Tripolye-Cucuteni, from which they entered the Epi-Corded horizon and later transformed, probably from Unetice -> Tumulus -> Urnfield (Gava).
Click to expand...

so you expected to see lack of e1b1b1
in this paper or not ?
 
kingjohn said:
so you expected to see lack of e1b1b1
in this paper or not ?
Click to expand...

I wasn't sure about a presence of E1b1b in general, as they could have lived among the Southern Sopot groups too, but I thought its likely that they won't find samples which would be direct ancestors of E-V13 in the South. These should have been, at this point, in the North, Middle Danubian and upwards.
But even that is debatable, because the clans could have moved within Lengyel-Sopot networks up and down. I was, however, even more sure that they weren't anywhere South of the Danube in the EBA and later times, until they came back from the North in the Late Bronze Age, especially with Urnfield-Channelled Ware.
So basically my proposition is they moved to the North from the early to the Late Neolithic, stayed there for the whole Bronze Age until coming down with Urnfield, having Naue II and early iron swords.
 
Have we ever found out what subclade that supposed Neolithic French, E1b1a sample belonged to?
 
Without burial context information for each sample, and also the kind of isotope analysis done by the authors of the Lombard paper, it's going to be impossible to make any accurate conclusions as to the source of the samples. Ydna could have been in the area for far longer than the Imperial Era, as just one example, and we know that there were still people in the Balkans in the Iron Age who carried a whole hell of a lot of Anatolian Farmer dna.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
 
Jack Johnson said:
Have we ever found out what subclade that supposed Neolithic French, E1b1a sample belonged to?
Click to expand...

I'm afraid we need more samples to be sure whether this was just a techical issue based on bad coverage. But what we know for sure is that haplgroup E was fairly common in Neolithic France, we have these Northern French and also the Eastern French-Western German Michelsberger.
 
Thanks. Do we know the furthest confirmed subclade or SNP for that sample? Was he at least confirmed for E-P2, E-M96, or DE? I’m trying to compile a list of Neolithic European E samples. So far we have one E-M78 sample from Cucuteni-Trypillia Ukraine, two E-L618 samples from Lengyel Hungary, one Cardium Ware E-L618 sample from Croatia, and three E-M78 samples (as well as one low resolution E-M215 sample) from Early Neolithic Michelsberg in Eastern France. Is that Western German Michelsberg sample officially E-M78 too? It said “predicted” on the E samples map over at Anthrogenica. That Neolithic, “E-V13” Iberian sample is curious as well. Unfortunately it used outdated STR testing methods. Wonder if he’s still at least E-L618/M78?
 
What about the Cardial sample from Spain?
 
Angela said:
What about the Cardial sample from Spain?
Click to expand...

Even if it would be confirmed E-V13, what I read at times, it most likely would be an early and dead end branch. I see no viable pathway for it making it to CEE from where E-V13 made its comeback from the near extinction event. Probably some day they find a highly upstream branch of E-V13 in some Iberian village, so it survived on a very low level, we can't know for sure, but I doubt it. The Cardial sample in Spain just proves that E-L618/E-V13 was taking part in the Cardial-Impresso expansion.

The path for the E-V13 and its expansion since the LBA will be either Lengyel-Sopot directly (Dalmation sample -> Lengyel-Sopot from the Middle Danube -> later E-V13 from the Carpathian sphere -> development into Gava/Channelled Ware and LBA-EIA expansion. Or the same path, but through Tripolye-Cucuteni, which was in close contact with early steppe people. They needed to be in close contact with Corded Ware, coming back from an Epi-Corded environment, whether they themselves were part of it or an independent small cultural formation in the Corded networks needs to be shown.
 
Hawk said:
I highly doubt it's Montenegro, more like the Northern shores of ex Yugoslavia, in and around Danube yes.
Click to expand...

Hawk,
I have to confess my faults!
My memory was weak. I didn't find my papers back. But today I received the same old (and out of time) paper of
M. PERICIC (PERITCHITCH') and in fact the focus of higher variance for E-V13 was between S-E Dalmatia and S-Hercegovine! so more northern than Montenegro. To make things right.
 
… out of curiosity,
GedM…

POP23 (Croatia Roman Era) # PU5647985
POP02(Croatia Middle Neolithic Sopot) # CE6746542

VyysCPH.jpg


eElAanx.jpg


Code: 
POP02_Dodecad_K12b_Croatia_Middle_Neolithic_Sopot,0,0,4.14,0,50.88,0,0,0,12.52,0.81,30.84,0.81
POP23_Dodecad_K12b_Croatia_Roman_Era,9.71,1.07,0,3.05,31.66,32.74,0.28,0.53,2.40,0,16.23,2.33

Code: 
POP02_Dodecad_Globe_13_Croatia_Middle_Neolithic_Sopot,0,0,1.97,0,19.19,0.73,60.15,0,0.13,6.45,11.38,0,0
POP23_Dodecad_Globe_13_Croatia_Roman_Era,0.58,0.71,2.70,0,5.80,2.92,30.61,0,0.45,14.68,40.05,1.17,0.33
 
MOESAN said:
Hawk,
I have to confess my faults!
My memory was weak. I didn't find my papers back. But today I received the same old (and out of time) paper of
M. PERICIC (PERITCHITCH') and in fact the focus of higher variance for E-V13 was between S-E Dalmatia and S-Hercegovine! so more northern than Montenegro. To make things right.
Click to expand...

That's interesting, is there any modern study or indie genetic project to claim the same thing or the same pattern spotted by Pericic?
 
YFull have recently added JAG78 (U5b1b1a) as my closest mtDNA match. Est age 3750 - 3550 ybp. They have us as U5b1b1-b.
 
Last edited:
Hawk said:
That's interesting, is there any modern study or indie genetic project to claim the same thing or the same pattern spotted by Pericic?
Click to expand...

Sorry I'm late. NO, I have no news about this matter for now.
 
POP23Beli Manastir-Popova zemlja Roman Period260–402 calCECroatia_Pop_RomanPM962,966T2f2R1a1a1b2a2b1


someone uploaded this r1a-z93 individual
POP23 roman period
to yfull ;)

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-F1019/
 
Trojet said:
For POP17 under "Other IDs" it says: I3499;MathiesonNature2018;capture.data.from.tooth.
So it's the same one from the previously published study The Genomic History of Southeastern Europe, under which I3499 is labeled from the Vucedol Culture, 2884-2666 calBCE, and is R1b-Z2103+ (could not be classified any deeper).
Click to expand...

The ancestors of the proto-illyrians emerge
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 19349 times.

Back
Top