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Thread: Dynamic changes in genomic and social structures in third millennium BCE central Euro

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Johnson View Post
    What’s there for him to have a field day with at this point? He’ll eventually have to accept the fact that Basques have steppe autosomal DNA, despite not speaking an Indo-European language. R1b-L51 shares a common root with Z2103, at L23. Steppe autosomal DNA is always found with it, and it is connected to other WSH Y-DNA lineages, such as R1a-M417, I2a2a-L699, R1b-PF7562, R1b-Z2118, R1b-V1636, and Q1b. It’s completely undeniable at this point; it’s not 2011-2014 anymore.
    the paper is dated 2018 and takes into account what has been discovered after 2011-2014

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I agree with you here. Anyway, our "buddy" Gaska will have a field day with this Bohemian study. Hopefully, the researchers in the upcoming Etruscan study will contextualize the DNA evidence by comprising the archaeological records.
    Why? He predicted R1b-L51 was born in West: not the case!

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    Isn't it likely now that Italo-Celtic derives from corded ware?

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    I know. I was saying that with everything that’s been discovered since 2014-2015, it is impossible at this point, to deny the steppe origins of R1b-L51. Now whether it originated on the western half of the Pontic Caspian steppe, or on the East European forest steppe, or from somewhere else in Eastern Europe, I am not sure. All we know for certain is that it spread out of Eastern Europe in the early Bronze Age, with Western Steppe Herder autosomal DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Why? He predicted R1b-L51 was born in West: not the case!
    the paper suggests Bohemia was not the origin of R1b-L51, the origin could be somewhere in between Bohemia and the British Isles

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    When are population geneticists and internet hobbyists going to start paying attention to archaeology???

    Well said, Angela. Population geneticists to start paying attention to archaeology should at least study it first. Instead, even today, most geneticists have no academic knowledge of archaeology.


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As I said, population geneticists, in general, don't pay any attention to archaeology. The internet community is worse. That, and their own prejudices are why for so long, in the face of overwhelming archaeological data, it was argued that the Etruscans were recent migrants from the Near East. How did that turn out?

    In the case of the Etruscans, some past geneticists have done even worse than ignoring archaeology, they have only paid attention to pseudoarchaeology and pseudolinguistics or to superseded theories and fringe theories.

    As we say in Italy, sooner or later "tutti i nodi vengono al pettine".
    Last edited by Pax Augusta; 28-08-21 at 11:36.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    the paper suggests Bohemia was not the origin of R1b-L51, the origin could be somewhere in between Bohemia and the British Isles
    Can we consider the Lower Rhine region as a possible candidate? In that case, we have R1b-L51 there at 4000-3500 BC, and an ulterior maritime migration would allow they reach the British Isles in 2500 BC. I remember also that the Amesbury archer was buried near Stonehenge (2300 BC) and was born in the Alps (perhaps descending of the Lower Rhine R1-L51 people?). In Iberia we have also a R1b-P312 individual. (R-L51>R-L52>R-L151>R-P312), 2417 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaldeScience2019. Additionally, the Lower Rhine region has in common the maritime connections with the B. Isles and the I. Peninsula.
    Only a wild guess ... ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by celtiberian-II View Post
    Can we consider the Lower Rhine region as a possible candidate? In that case, we have R1b-L51 there at 4000-3500 BC, and an ulterior maritime migration would allow they reach the British Isles in 2500 BC. I remember also that the Amesbury archer was buried near Stonehenge (2300 BC) and was born in the Alps (perhaps descending of the Lower Rhine R1-L51 people?). In Iberia we have also a R1b-P312 individual. (R-L51>R-L52>R-L151>R-P312), 2417 BCE. Burgos, Spain, OlaldeScience2019. Additionally, the Lower Rhine region has in common the maritime connections with the B. Isles and the I. Peninsula.
    Only a wild guess ... ;)
    It looks R1b-L51 were very mobile, and some of it's descendants started to dominate a whole area.
    They ended up establishing a network all over western Europe within a few centuries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Well said, Angela. Population geneticists to start paying attention to archaeology should at least study it first. Instead, even today, most geneticists have no academic knowledge of archaeology.





    In the case of the Etruscans, some past geneticists have done even worse than ignoring archaeology, they have only paid attention to pseudoarchaeology and pseudolinguistics or to superseded theories and fringe theories.

    As we say in Italy, sooner or later "tutti i nodi vengono al pettine".
    In this study some disconnection appears between archeological entities and ethnic entities.
    Which doesn't mean archeology shouldn't be considered and studied.
    But the DNA allows us to discover things that archeology can't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    In this study some disconnection appears between archeological entities and ethnic entities.
    Which doesn't mean archeology shouldn't be considered and studied.
    But the DNA allows us to discover things that archeology can't.
    The problem is not DNA, which is obviously a powerful tool for knowledge. The problem is who draws the final conclusions. Geneticists alone cannot draw the conclusions.
    We have seen archaeologists and anthropologists more involved in genetic studies in the last few years. There will be a need for more and more of them in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    Simply looking at the dominant Y-DNA allready shows Yamna/CW/Bell Beaker are not the same, alltough this paper seems to suggest that the origins of CW and Bell Beaker are entangled.
    Yet all 3 have the same autosomal component + some admixture with late European neolithic/chalcolithic.
    This autosomal component was formed prior to the Yamna era, it was formed during late Khvalynsk.
    It is very likely that the PIE lived between the Samara bend (EHG) and the northern Caucasus (CHG) at the time when the steppe DNA was formed.
    R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 were amongst them.

    Here again we look at interpretations. The Central Europe BB and CWC males were anthropologically (even non-metric dental traits) different around the 2500 BC, their females being more close one to another spite non indentical, and placed between these two male groups. I doubt a common "primal" mixture of CWC/BB people (so males and females at first) could have diverged locally so quickly and so radically, also for Y-haplo's. Anthropologically (and non-metric) too, it seems Unetice people were closer to typical CWC but here we have no contradiction with the paper, because it seems they document a new North-East input in Bohemia then. I don't see BB's from CWC's, I see a convergence there (Bohemia but alsoe Bavaria)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    the paper suggests Bohemia was not the origin of R1b-L51, the origin could be somewhere in between Bohemia and the British Isles
    It amazes me, sincerely. But I cannot discuss, I have not the chronology of apparition of Y-haplo's in the paper. I see L51 born more in East (i would say between Baltic countries and W-Ukraine), and developping in Central-Europe or rather Western-Central Europe; birth and baby boom are not the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    the paper suggests Bohemia was not the origin of R1b-L51, the origin could be somewhere in between Bohemia and the British Isles
    The oldest sample L51 is I6222 from Afanasievo, so I doubt that L51 arose west of Bohemia. However, I think that L51 began to be divided into several branches in the area between the Rhine and the Carpathians, taking into account, among other things, that the oldest U106, the oldest A8053, the oldest S1194 and some of the older P312 samples have been found in this area.

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    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    Page 110 of David Reich's book, Who We Are and How We Got Here "The genetic data thus settled a long-standing debate in archaeology about linkages between the Corded Ware and the Yamnaya cultures. The two had many striking parallels, such as the construction of large burial mounds, the intensive exploitation of horses and herding, and a strikingly male-centered culture that celebrated violence, as reflected in the great maces (or hammer-axes) buried in some graves. At the same time, there were profound differences between the two cultures, notably the entirely different types of pottery that they made, with important elements of the Corded Ware style adapted from previous central European pottery styles. But the genetics showed that the connection between the Corded Ware culture and the Yamnaya culture reflected major movements of people. The makers of the Corded Ware culture were, at least in a genetic sense, a westward extension of Yamnaya."

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    Simply looking at the dominant Y-DNA allready shows Yamna/CW/Bell Beaker are not the same, alltough this paper seems to suggest that the origins of CW and Bell Beaker are entangled.
    Yet all 3 have the same autosomal component + some admixture with late European neolithic/chalcolithic.
    This autosomal component was formed prior to the Yamna era, it was formed during late Khvalynsk.
    It is very likely that the PIE lived between the Samara bend (EHG) and the northern Caucasus (CHG) at the time when the steppe DNA was formed.
    R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 were amongst them.
    I think there is no reason that they spoke PIE, b/c they lived in europe and have R1b/R1a.
    People always think that Yangshao O3 people in yellow river spoke sino-tibetan like modern Han Chinese. However, tonal language like sino –tibetan appeared 5 century in china.

    Marlory said that afanasievo culture could not be connected to tocharian. There is not any cereal sample in afanasivo grave, but farming words in tocharian language.
    I think late PIE speaker the celts, the Myceneans and Vedic Aryan’s cultures cannot be explained without snake. However any snake artifact has not been found in yamna/ cwc/bb culture.
    Sunhead means snake head. Snake is a sun’s ray, so thunderbolt. Braids in their heads are snakes. Snake is a circle, so celtic and vedic mandala. The snake concept is not DNA, but their soul:



    https://www.suppressedhistories.net/...geometric.html






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    Like I said; Eurogenes got tipped off about the upcoming paper and changed his tune. That has a habit of happening with him.

    As for Reich, he followed David Anthony, who was by no means always right, particularly about Corded Ware. Anthony staked out his positions years ago, and he wasn't about to change it because of new discoveries.

    I'll say it again: Yamnaya was 40-60 percent CHG/Iranian farmer; Corded Ware was not ;plus, there were further migrations from the Northeast. Maybe Corded Ware were pushed into Central Europe by Yamnaya; I don't know. I do know they weren't the same people, and the Indo-European culture didn't form in the forests north of the Pontic Caspian steppe.


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    I don't think anybody is saying they were the same people. From most of what I've read their saying they were related. As for eurogenes if you go back and read his posts he's changed his mind many times based on new research. That's the norm in the scientific community. I also haven't read of anyone being sure that indo european formed in the forest steppe. Most of what I've read says that it formed on the northern shores of the Black Sea. The forest steppe zone was bounded to the north of the steppe and included but most likely not it's epicenter. I've haven't seen any close relationship between Anthony and Reich either. Reich's mentor is Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza as far as I know. Many people looked at Anthony's previous work and used it but with new research new conclusions have emerged. I don't think Reich's latest works have anything to do with Anthony. You also seem to be lumping everyone into this idea. Eurogenes, Anthony, Reich. You might as well throw Gimbutas, Patterson and others into the mix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jstray View Post
    I don't think anybody is saying they were the same people. From most of what I've read their saying they were related. As for eurogenes if you go back and read his posts he's changed his mind many times based on new research. That's the norm in the scientific community. I also haven't read of anyone being sure that indo european formed in the forest steppe. Most of what I've read says that it formed on the northern shores of the Black Sea. The forest steppe zone was bounded to the north of the steppe and included but most likely not it's epicenter. I've haven't seen any close relationship between Anthony and Reich either. Reich's mentor is Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza as far as I know. Many people looked at Anthony's previous work and used it but with new research new conclusions have emerged. I don't think Reich's latest works have anything to do with Anthony. You also seem to be lumping everyone into this idea. Eurogenes, Anthony, Reich. You might as well throw Gimbutas, Patterson and others into the mix.
    Anthony is listed on Reich papers, and in an interview Kristiansen recently said Yamnaya and Corded Ware were virtually identical, so you're seriously misinformed on all counts.

    You should really refrain from commenting when that's the case.

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    [QUOTE=Pax Augusta;629655]Well said, Angela. Population geneticists to start paying attention to archaeology should at least study it first. Instead, even today, most geneticists have no academic knowledge of archaeology.

    And vice versa. Many archaeologists refuse to acknowledge population genetics as legitimate. The disdain from some of them is palpable. It's going to take a combined effort and cooperation and education to solve some of these mysteries. It's a shame that bickering between these groups can get in the way.

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    Anthony is listed on many papers by many different people that doesn't mean they all agree with everything he says indefinitely. Like I said, with new research comes new conclusions. And not all of what a researcher says may be inaccurate in it's time. Some of it can become outdated and some can hold up. If I'm misinformed on all counts than so are all the other researchers previously mentioned because all I did was reference them. It's starting to sound like you think your the only one who's right and everyone else who's put in thousands of hours of work on these subjects are wrong. I know your very knowledgeable about these subjects but I think your giving some of these other folks less respect than they deserve. This is just my opinion and I think suggesting that I refrain from commenting because I offer another point of view on the subject other than your own is a little chilling. I may be a newbie but I'm not an idiot. All I'm trying to do is get the right answers to the questions we all have and not be hasty about making drastic conclusions based on one study. A lot of work has been done and I prefer to try and integrate all that we've learned.

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    Sorry, your information is again incorrect. The Reich Group very specifically said they were working with Anthony, which imo was a bad move. He's the reason imo why so many people have a distorted idea of the archaeology. He ignores
    all the papers which provide data contradicting his preferred position.

    As for your assertion no one was saying Corded Ware and Yamnaya were virtually identical, that's been answered. The fact a geneticist was saying it is mind boggling.

    Finally.of course people change their opinions as a new paper comes out, but they don't suddenly do a complete abrupt about face right BEFORE a new paper comes out which shows they're completely wrong.

    Put your faith in whomever you choose, and express any opinion you choose, but be aware that if your facts are wrong, someone is bound to call you on it.. I don't think there's any point in discussing it further.

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    [QUOTE=jstray;629693]
    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    Well said, Angela. Population geneticists to start paying attention to archaeology should at least study it first. Instead, even today, most geneticists have no academic knowledge of archaeology.

    And vice versa. Many archaeologists refuse to acknowledge population genetics as legitimate. The disdain from some of them is palpable. It's going to take a combined effort and cooperation and education to solve some of these mysteries. It's a shame that bickering between these groups can get in the way.

    Angela is rightfully pointing out, that geneticists should contextualize their DNA results by taking archeological studies into account. Some seem to think, that since DNA is a superior tool that somehow makes archeological studies obsolete. However, you have a valid point here. I've seen some woke Egyptologists or historians that are very dismissive of DNA studies. For instance, there is this insufferable woke Egyptologist and Professor, Kara Cooney who pretends that DNA studies can't be taken seriously and can't really say who the Ancient Egyptians ethnically speaking were. She claims that Ancient Egyptians were black because if they were in Alabama under Jim Crow Laws they would have to sit at the BACK of the bus. So, according to her Jim Crow Laws are more valid than DNA for defining, determining what race the Egyptians were. Cooney also claims that modern Egyptians from Luxor look black, which means King Tut who was from this area, was black too. It's crazy how many teachers, professors in universities, and schools push their personal ideology instead to inform and teach students with facts. Anyway, every member can of course join discussions and give his two cents, that's what a forum is for.



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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    Why? He predicted R1b-L51 was born in West: not the case!
    Here comments of Gaska he wrote on another forum.



    Gaska
    AUGUST27, 2021 AT 8:09 AM
    Hi Matt, I hope you congratulate me because I was right, Yamnaya is not the source but the sink of r1b. Maybe you can help me solve the mystery. If CWC in its origin has 5-15% ancestry coming from Narva culture, if the analyzed (early) females are local or arrived directly from the steppes and if we have only R1b-L51. Who do you think brought that Narva ancestry to the CWC??? – remember that we have the Baltic plagued by r1b WHGs since the Mesolithic and that until 2.700 BC does not appear there R1a-M417 and much later Z2013. And what happens when R1a arrives? The Narva signal disappears, you only have to check other CWC samples in Czechia. Ergo R1b-L51 has tobe central european or baltic, nothing to do with ukraine the forest steppe or sredni stog. L51 and M417 did not migrate together from the steppes because L51>L151 was never there.


    Gaska
    AUGUST27, 2021 AT 6:22 AM
    Delenda est Yamnaya, Gioiello

    The Harvardians have not only been defeated, they have made a side real fool of themselves after 10 years of arguing that we owe everything that exists in Europe to the horsemen of the steppes – the white race, the wheel, the domestication of the horse, metallurgy, language, etc. We will never hear again about the Yamnaya culture because it never had anything to do in this business. It doesn’t matter that they will probably never recognize their mistakes, the fun is to see Kurganist fanatics looking for a way to explain why they have been making fools of themselves for 10 years defending the indefensible.Harvard, Reich, Haak, Mathieson, Lazaridis, Patterson and colleagues. So hard was it to understand-there is NO patrilineal genetic continuity between Yamnaya the CWC and the BBC???. We have been saying it for years and they have never listened to our reasoning. Now they want to look for L51 in the steppe forests, Ukraine, well fine, let them keep trying, in 10 years they will realize that they are wrong too.

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