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Thread: Dynamic changes in genomic and social structures in third millennium BCE central Euro

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    R1a-M417 is heavily bottlenecked (formed 8700 BP, TMRCA 5400 BP); it seems to me it was a marginal EHG lineage until one guy, perhaps marrying a woman from pre-Yamnaya R1b clans, became successful. Pre-M417 descended lineages remained marginal and mostly died off, while the M417 TMRCA and his descendants joined their R1b distant cousins and took off. The L51 clans later took off in western Europe, while R1a remained near the original source of Corded Ware.

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    I think this is one of the big problems with getting to the truth. Reich states that several archaeologists quit his research team when they found out the genetic research proved something that countered what the archaeologists were professing. I've also watched lectures from genetic researchers where in the Q&A session at the end archaeologists go almost ballistic asking questions just trying to totally refute what was said. When I began doing research a couple years ago I was looking at everything that was being written. It's taken me that long just to try to get to the boundaries of whats accurate. When influential and respected people in the field and in the hobby continue to misrepresent,ignore and or inject their opinion based on some personal preference the information gets diluted and makes it harder for everyone to get to the truth. Archaeology, genetics and linguistics go hand in hand to try to figure this out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Here comments of Gaska he wrote on another forum.



    Gaska
    AUGUST27, 2021 AT 8:09 AM
    Hi Matt, I hope you congratulate me because I was right, Yamnaya is not the source but the sink of r1b. Maybe you can help me solve the mystery. If CWC in its origin has 5-15% ancestry coming from Narva culture, if the analyzed (early) females are local or arrived directly from the steppes and if we have only R1b-L51. Who do you think brought that Narva ancestry to the CWC??? – remember that we have the Baltic plagued by r1b WHGs since the Mesolithic and that until 2.700 BC does not appear there R1a-M417 and much later Z2013. And what happens when R1a arrives? The Narva signal disappears, you only have to check other CWC samples in Czechia. Ergo R1b-L51 has tobe central european or baltic, nothing to do with ukraine the forest steppe or sredni stog. L51 and M417 did not migrate together from the steppes because L51>L151 was never there.


    Gaska
    AUGUST27, 2021 AT 6:22 AM
    Delenda est Yamnaya, Gioiello

    The Harvardians have not only been defeated, they have made a side real fool of themselves after 10 years of arguing that we owe everything that exists in Europe to the horsemen of the steppes – the white race, the wheel, the domestication of the horse, metallurgy, language, etc. We will never hear again about the Yamnaya culture because it never had anything to do in this business. It doesn’t matter that they will probably never recognize their mistakes, the fun is to see Kurganist fanatics looking for a way to explain why they have been making fools of themselves for 10 years defending the indefensible.Harvard, Reich, Haak, Mathieson, Lazaridis, Patterson and colleagues. So hard was it to understand-there is NO patrilineal genetic continuity between Yamnaya the CWC and the BBC???. We have been saying it for years and they have never listened to our reasoning. Now they want to look for L51 in the steppe forests, Ukraine, well fine, let them keep trying, in 10 years they will realize that they are wrong too.

    Gaska refuses to accept the L52 sample found in Mongolia and belonging to Afanasievo culture (I6222) because "it is contaminated" ... he doesn't want to accept that the contamination only affects the identification of the MT haplogroup, not to mention that several SNPs were analyzed , and reputable geneticists such as Anthony or Kandell have verified its authenticity.

    There was already L51 in the steppe 5000 years ago, as much as Gaska is bothered and does not want to accept it. L51 didn't appear in central Europe, but began to mutate there, dividing into several branches. That's the most coherent explanation right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Here comments of Gaska he wrote on another forum.



    Gaska
    AUGUST27, 2021 AT 8:09 AM
    Hi Matt, I hope you congratulate me because I was right, Yamnaya is not the source but the sink of r1b. Maybe you can help me solve the mystery. If CWC in its origin has 5-15% ancestry coming from Narva culture, if the analyzed (early) females are local or arrived directly from the steppes and if we have only R1b-L51. Who do you think brought that Narva ancestry to the CWC??? – remember that we have the Baltic plagued by r1b WHGs since the Mesolithic and that until 2.700 BC does not appear there R1a-M417 and much later Z2013. And what happens when R1a arrives? The Narva signal disappears, you only have to check other CWC samples in Czechia. Ergo R1b-L51 has tobe central european or baltic, nothing to do with ukraine the forest steppe or sredni stog. L51 and M417 did not migrate together from the steppes because L51>L151 was never there.


    Gaska
    AUGUST27, 2021 AT 6:22 AM
    Delenda est Yamnaya, Gioiello

    The Harvardians have not only been defeated, they have made a side real fool of themselves after 10 years of arguing that we owe everything that exists in Europe to the horsemen of the steppes – the white race, the wheel, the domestication of the horse, metallurgy, language, etc. We will never hear again about the Yamnaya culture because it never had anything to do in this business. It doesn’t matter that they will probably never recognize their mistakes, the fun is to see Kurganist fanatics looking for a way to explain why they have been making fools of themselves for 10 years defending the indefensible.Harvard, Reich, Haak, Mathieson, Lazaridis, Patterson and colleagues. So hard was it to understand-there is NO patrilineal genetic continuity between Yamnaya the CWC and the BBC???. We have been saying it for years and they have never listened to our reasoning. Now they want to look for L51 in the steppe forests, Ukraine, well fine, let them keep trying, in 10 years they will realize that they are wrong too.
    It was not his first thoughts concerning L51 level and I debated politely with him. If I remember well it seems he temperated his views later. By the way I have nothing against Gaska, and I think he has no more than me. Now, where did L51 take it's "steppe" ancestry, because I think he had when he went westwards? You aren't obliged to be one of the foundators to take a train on its way. Maybe there has been convergences in Belarus or Ukraina as well as in more western areas of Europe? Just a possibility, I'm not too fanatic in my opinions about uncertain past.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    the paper suggests Bohemia was not the origin of R1b-L51, the origin could be somewhere in between Bohemia and the British Isles
    No R1b-L51 was already born East, and L11/L151 in Central-North. West-Central Europe is the place of great increase in number and dispersion of downstream SNP's rather in a star form, before internal later moves came to puzzle things, IMO (for what it is worth!).
    Phénotypically and maybe archeologically, Worms region around south-central Rhine were a hotspot of non-Iberic BB's if I recall well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    Here comments of Gaska he wrote on another forum.



    Gaska
    AUGUST27, 2021 AT 8:09 AM
    Hi Matt, I hope you congratulate me because I was right, Yamnaya is not the source but the sink of r1b. Maybe you can help me solve the mystery. If CWC in its origin has 5-15% ancestry coming from Narva culture, if the analyzed (early) females are local or arrived directly from the steppes and if we have only R1b-L51. Who do you think brought that Narva ancestry to the CWC??? – remember that we have the Baltic plagued by r1b WHGs since the Mesolithic and that until 2.700 BC does not appear there R1a-M417 and much later Z2013. And what happens when R1a arrives? The Narva signal disappears, you only have to check other CWC samples in Czechia. Ergo R1b-L51 has tobe central european or baltic, nothing to do with ukraine the forest steppe or sredni stog. L51 and M417 did not migrate together from the steppes because L51>L151 was never there.


    Gaska
    AUGUST27, 2021 AT 6:22 AM
    Delenda est Yamnaya, Gioiello

    The Harvardians have not only been defeated, they have made a side real fool of themselves after 10 years of arguing that we owe everything that exists in Europe to the horsemen of the steppes – the white race, the wheel, the domestication of the horse, metallurgy, language, etc. We will never hear again about the Yamnaya culture because it never had anything to do in this business. It doesn’t matter that they will probably never recognize their mistakes, the fun is to see Kurganist fanatics looking for a way to explain why they have been making fools of themselves for 10 years defending the indefensible.Harvard, Reich, Haak, Mathieson, Lazaridis, Patterson and colleagues. So hard was it to understand-there is NO patrilineal genetic continuity between Yamnaya the CWC and the BBC???. We have been saying it for years and they have never listened to our reasoning. Now they want to look for L51 in the steppe forests, Ukraine, well fine, let them keep trying, in 10 years they will realize that they are wrong too.
    All rattling and rambling thoughts.

    IMO this paper has made this clear, there were two IE kind of waves from Central-East Europe to Northwest Europe:

    I. Corded Ware/ Single Grave with R1b L51
    II. Unetice with R1b U106, that founded the Sögel-Wohlde culture (line North Dutch, NW Germany and Jutland) 'the kick start' of the Nordic Bronze Age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    All rattling and rambling thoughts.

    IMO this paper has made this clear, there were two IE kind of waves from Central-East Europe to Northwest Europe:

    I. Corded Ware/ Single Grave with R1b L51
    II. Unetice with R1b U106, that founded the Sögel-Wohlde culture (line North Dutch, NW Germany and Jutland) 'the kick start' of the Nordic Bronze Age.
    If most of european languages originated in one region, is it possible that genmanic, balto slavic, italic and celtic do not form a clade inside IE, unlike indian/iranian IE as mentioned by another member in another blog a few years ago?

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    When "R1b U106 data-analist" Iain mc Donald is right that, based on the paper of the topic, then the starburst of R1b U106 is in the -extended- Unetice area.
    The early Corded Ware Czech R1b U106 comes, according to Iain, close to the 'proband' c.q. the first R1b U106.


    Besides that he states:
    However, the metallurgical links supplanted from the late Unetice Culture into the early Nordic Bronze Age in the period leading up to 1700 BC probably deserve some extra attention. Clades like R-L47 could become important in this role if the timings can be made to work. Equally, this could be a source of the sporadic R-Z156 results we see scattered throughout Scandinavia that I've never got my head quite around. So there is a lot to think on.

    Imo you can add a 'nordic' Rb U106 line like Z18 to it. The current TMRCA of Z18 is 1700 BC.


    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z19/


    In the line North Dutch-NW Germany-Jutland, we see in EBA (1800-1600 BC) a distinctive culture called Sögel-Wohlde. This culture stood at the start of the Nordic Bronze Age.


    Renowned Bronze Age archeologist like Prof H. Fokkens (University Leiden) and former Prof J.J. Butler (University Groningen) see this as a result of EBA immigrants. Prominent examples are: the "chieftain of Drouwen" (Drenthe/ North Dutch) and the "Hungarian bride of Fallingbostel" (Heidekreis/ Lower Saxony).


    The (battle) gear of this people is pointing strictly at the middle Danubian area.


    I guess it's a real scenario (mark: scenario) that R1b U106 was 'brought in' by these people!?

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    Quote Originally Posted by johen View Post
    If most of european languages originated in one region, is it possible that genmanic, balto slavic, italic and celtic do not form a clade inside IE, unlike indian/iranian IE as mentioned by another member in another blog a few years ago?
    Interesting fact Johen is that the people of Sögel-Wohlde spoke most probably Italo-Celtic. This is elaborated by the linguist prof Kuzmenko (2011).

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    Prof Kuzmenko, specialist in Germanics, original in Russian, summary in English:



    https://iling.spb.ru/pdf/alp/alp_VII_1.pdf

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    So Italians are really Dutchies 😄

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    I6222 (the Afanasievo sample in question) is positive for three SNPs in the R1b-P310 block, as well as several other SNPs, both upstream and downstream, making the call phylogenetically consistent. Some of these SNPs are ancestral to L52, but I believe L52 itself was actually a no call. Moreover, L52 is in the P310 phylogenetic equivalent block. So I6222 is simply R1b-P310*. Now the odds of a modern male contaminating I6222 with P310*, but not L151, P312, or even L52, are nil, almost impossible, but as you know, we shouldn’t expect anything less from him. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t he already shifting the goal posts? I believe he’s now trying to argue that the R1b-P297 lines found in Mesolithic Baltic HGs, are directly ancestral to the R1b-M269 lineages found in WSHs. Furthermore, he seems to think that these P297 lineages somehow came from Iberian WHGs, despite the fact both P and R were found in Upper Paleolithic, ANE/ANS samples from North Asia. You’d think the earliest, European hunter gatherer populations to have ANE, would be those closest to Central and North Asia, and not those located all the way in Iberia or France. Well wouldn’t you know it? We just so happen to have such a population, EHGs, and it turns out that Mesolithic Baltic HGs have a sizable amount of ANE/EHG admixture. They also have Q1b, another P derived lineage; Q1a1 was carried by Afontova Gora 2. Now we have R1a-M417, R1b-M269, and Q1b, all together in early Bohemian CW (all three were found together in Eneolithic Khvalynsk as well). Another steppe lineage R1b-V1636, was found in a WSH admixed individual from the SGC. The SGC was an offshoot of the CWC. Man..I’m not a professional population geneticist or anything, but you’d think certain people would eventually get it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TJeroen View Post
    So Italians are really Dutchies ������

    From the EBA Unetician/Danubian cultures there is a part that went to the North Sea Coast and a part that went to the Po Valley.

    See this lecture, from about 6:45 for the Polada/ Po Valley EBA culture:



    The Hungarian bride and the chieftain
    What makes it plausible that this also happened towards the North Sea area? For that I first go to 'two prominent people' from the Sögel-Wohlde area: the 'Hungarian bride of Fallingbostel' (Fallingbostel is located in the Lüneburg Heath) and the 'chieftain of Drouwen'.


    In a concise publication about Sögel-Wohlde by Ernst Probst (2011) we encounter the 'Hungarian bride of Fallingbostel' in full regalia:



    This costume can be directly related to the costume of the middle Danubian/ Gata-Wieselburgculture (Probst: 'in niederösterreichisch-westungarischer Tracht').


    Golden spiral rings
    The 'chieftain of Drouwen' in Drenthe/North Dutch is buried in the most important grave of the Sögel-Wohlde culture. This considerableness is underlined by the presence of two gold:

    spiral rings. And yes….'In Northern Italy, two small gold wire spiral rings were found in an EBA fossa grave cemetery near Verona, at Gazzo Veronese'.


    The resemblance is striking (see spiral ring at the top):

    https://journals.openedition.org/archeosciences/2066
    Last edited by Northener; 03-09-21 at 08:17.

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    Nørgaard (2021) the LNBA connection in three clear pictures.


    Network of goods, ideas and people!?










    https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/bronz...%B8rgaard-phd/


    Jockenhövel (2013) in words:
    In Germany, as an integral part of central Europe, there are numerous cultural manifestations in the EBA, which, although having their own regionally specific character, when taken average rich single graves and their associated together show distinct common features. These are evi- dent in the appearance of above-votive depositions and hoards with new kinds of ceremonial weapons, such as solid-hilted daggers (Vollgriffdolche) and halberds, as well as various kinds of axe. From this it can be inferred that around 2000–1800 bc a leading social group (‘chieftains’) emerged, in farming communities that stretched from the lower Danube to southern Scandinavia, the south of England (Wessex culture), and Brittany, and were in close contact with one another. Their common features are evident not only on the physical level, as seen cross-regionally in very similar object forms and burial rites, but also in the spread of new technologies, like the introduction of tin-bronze, and the advent of complex metalworking techniques. EBA cultural groups are like ‘islands’ in central Europe, particularly near important deposits of copper, tin, and salt. Between these ‘islands’ are wide stretches of land that still continued in the Late Neolithic tradition. The most distinctive culture group is the Aunjetitz or Únětice culture (named after Únětice near Prague) (2300–2200 to 1600–1500 bc). Of more than just regional significance, this culture spreads from the middle Danube (south-west Slovakia, northern Lower Austria) across Moravia and Bohemia to central Germany,

    The Sögel-Wohlde culture leads to a distinct cultural development that spreads from the eastern lowlands across Westphalia to Jutland. It is characterized particularly by inhumations in burial mounds and at this stage—unlike the contemporaneous Tumulus culture of central Europe—is only known from male graves. They are identified by their grave goods: short swords or daggers, flanged axes, heart-shaped flint arrowheads, pins, and occasionally small rings formed of spirally wound gold wire.
    The Rastorf (east Holstein) burial mound, raised over a megalithic grave, represents a short-lived development at the start of the Nordic Bronze Age. The oldest male grave with its triangular dagger belongs to the EBA; above it there is an early solid-hilted sword (of Sögel or Apa type); the latest burial contains a Wohlde short sword.

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    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    @kingjohn your post # 6
    Thanks for sharing; could you precise me - if possible - the places, cultures and times of these files, I can't find them; Thanks in advance, and sorry for disturbing you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @kingjohn your post # 6
    Thanks for sharing; could you precise me - if possible - the places, cultures and times of these files, I can't find them; Thanks in advance, and sorry for disturbing you.

    go to
    supplementary Materials:

    other supplementary material for this manu - script includes the following :
    Table S1 to S37

    press- Download


    go to table S3


    you will see the site of each ancient sample



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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    Interesting fact Johen is that the people of Sögel-Wohlde spoke most probably Italo-Celtic. This is elaborated by the linguist prof Kuzmenko (2011).
    I'm a bit surprised (not too much, in fact). I had read the Alt-Europäisch could have ties with an IE dialect of Rhaetia (as a challenger to the Etruscanlike Rhaetian) and maybe even with eastern Venetic, all pushed by some scholars into the bag of a Pan-Italic group. But I rather would place the very Italic neat individualisation around East Austria-Croatia around Urnfield times where numerous contacts seem having found place, involving more southeastern ethnies of Hungary and Noerthern Balkans. That doesn't exclude the conservationof first tight links with other Pan-Italic dialects and people, in fact, still close enough to other western primitive IE dialects (post-BB heritage). Languages do'nt differentiate abruptly but step by step, and surely some common evolutions took place before intermediary close dialects died, evolutions shared by what would be true Italic a bit later.

    Concerning the early CWC of Bohemia rich in Y-R1b-L151, I should guess they were rather on the U-106 side than the P-312 one, what don't exclude some P-312. I wait for more legible downstream SNP's in this region and elsewhere for this period. P312-U152-L2 could also be considered there as a peripheric (marginal?) remnant of the bulk of P312 which evolved later in the BB's sphere. But I can be mistaken.
    I hope we 'll have more Sögel-Wohlde Y-haplos. To date, I suppose the R1b-L51 there were rather on the U106 side. Wait and see.
    concerning BB's, no problem, since a long time I think that they were also of Steppic origin, or soon "steppicised" and that they adopted the BB's artefacts and incorporated them in their network.
    As you know, I try to draw a global figure and not to drown myself in a cosmos of too local archeological cultures, separated by few and little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northener View Post
    When "R1b U106 data-analist" Iain mc Donald is right that, based on the paper of the topic, then the starburst of R1b U106 is in the -extended- Unetice area.
    The early Corded Ware Czech R1b U106 comes, according to Iain, close to the 'proband' c.q. the first R1b U106.


    Besides that he states:



    Imo you can add a 'nordic' Rb U106 line like Z18 to it. The current TMRCA of Z18 is 1700 BC.


    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z19/


    In the line North Dutch-NW Germany-Jutland, we see in EBA (1800-1600 BC) a distinctive culture called Sögel-Wohlde. This culture stood at the start of the Nordic Bronze Age.


    Renowned Bronze Age archeologist like Prof H. Fokkens (University Leiden) and former Prof J.J. Butler (University Groningen) see this as a result of EBA immigrants. Prominent examples are: the "chieftain of Drouwen" (Drenthe/ North Dutch) and the "Hungarian bride of Fallingbostel" (Heidekreis/ Lower Saxony).


    The (battle) gear of this people is pointing strictly at the middle Danubian area.


    I guess it's a real scenario (mark: scenario) that R1b U106 was 'brought in' by these people!?
    independantly of my to come answer in the Brtiain BA/IA thread, spite all these threads are linked, I give here my opinion for what it's worth.
    the peri-Unetice origin of Y-R-U106 doesn't seem stupid at all - I' have not enough data to judge it seriously - but what makes me to think like that is I saw the origin of this clade in Northern Europe, between south Baltic and Central Europe mountains, based on a strong density of Y-R-L11 there todate; it's true it's not a firm proof but, time has run away... The injection of more "northeastern" auDNA in the Unetice people (heterogenous culture BTW) could check this, even if we could also put it on the account of some Y-I2a(2)? IMO it's not Czechia but rather a region between East-Germany and western Poland which were the original place of first increase of U106.
    Concerning Tumuli, I have hard work to believe these cultures were still an uniform culture and ethny at BA; they have interactions but were distinct: several archeologic "provinces" were detected at the beginning of BA and even before, more interestingly, perdured in Urnfield times.
    Just my interpretations.

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    about Sögel & Cy, if not Germanic, it would be easily proto-Germanic, because what kind of language can Germanic be born by? Not the CWC language for me, but as is proposed by more than one, rather a dialect son of this alt-europäisch with panitalic ties which seem having rovering from Tyrol to Benelux at ancient times; it could explain the common traits seen by some linguists between Italic and Germanic, before the contacts of Germanic with Celtic.
    &: why not CWC language: because the Y-R1a present in Scandinavia - and I suppose they are a set of the CWC Y-R1a - seem having been pushed northwards and northwestwards in Norway by newcomers of South: N-West BB's descendants and SGC descendants, mingled or not at first, and with maybe a different centers of gravity (some 'dinaric' input in western Jutland (not sure but more brachy's todate at least) and in Western Norway); I read a range of numerous big tumuli traced the route of the incomers in Sweden, but I don't know what archeologic traits they had: unifoorm or variated?

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    it could explain the common traits seen by some linguists between Italic and Germanic, before the contacts of Germanic with Celtic.

    Oh! These linguists are to young to have lived then! It's the common traits which are supposed to date to before Germanic-Celtic contacts,

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    about Sögel & Cy, if not Germanic, it would be easily proto-Germanic, because what kind of language can Germanic be born by? Not the CWC language for me, but as is proposed by more than one, rather a dialect son of this alt-europäisch with panitalic ties which seem having rovering from Tyrol to Benelux at ancient times; it could explain the common traits seen by some linguists between Italic and Germanic, before the contacts of Germanic with Celtic.
    &: why not CWC language: because the Y-R1a present in Scandinavia - and I suppose they are a set of the CWC Y-R1a - seem having been pushed northwards and northwestwards in Norway by newcomers of South: N-West BB's descendants and SGC descendants, mingled or not at first, and with maybe a different centers of gravity (some 'dinaric' input in western Jutland (not sure but more brachy's todate at least) and in Western Norway); I read a range of numerous big tumuli traced the route of the incomers in Sweden, but I don't know what archeologic traits they had: unifoorm or variated?

    Thanks Moesan! I'm always kind of skeptical with respect to "the timing" of pre-historic languages, in fact we don't have solid ground (no single source!). Of course we have our computer models, nevertheless this stays "surrogate". So much room for projections.;)

    Basically we could see a difference between a Nordwestblock around the Southern North Sea, especially between Rhine and Weser. Versus the Jastorf area on the lower Elbe, and mouth of it above Hamburg. The last one could be the area were (proto-) Germanic (with the Grimm's law etc) has developed. The Nordwestblock could be related to related language but when (proto) Germanic developed around the lower Elbe, the world between Rhine and Weser, was naturally much more related to the Celtic world, the Weser for example flows through Hessen, the Glauberg! Not to mention the Rhine, the Rhine-Main area etc. Besides that the Hallstatt/La Tene area's were more developed compared to more perifere Northern regions.

    No wonder that old Frisian and English (languages after migration time) can be seen as Germanic with a strong Celtic substrate...

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    We are in a bit of fog here, it's true (no texts) - if I risked a bet, I would say they was a gradiant between Lower Rhine (rather South) more BB-like and the Elbe region more CWC-like at first; between Weser and Denmark, a bit later could be arrived a new group, more on Y-R1b-U106, speaking an equally not-CWC dialect (CWC could have had some 'satemlike' features?) to add to former mix; always a gradiant, but less-BBlike; on this new layer, the peri-Weser people didn't participate to the Germanic last shift, when the peri-Elb ones and people north of them parcticipated in this shift. ATW Celtic in my mind appeared more southernly, maybe more southwest.
    Wait and see, as often!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    We are in a bit of fog here, it's true (no texts) - if I risked a bet, I would say they was a gradiant between Lower Rhine (rather South) more BB-like and the Elbe region more CWC-like at first; between Weser and Denmark, a bit later could be arrived a new group, more on Y-R1b-U106, speaking an equally not-CWC dialect (CWC could have had some 'satemlike' features?) to add to former mix; always a gradiant, but less-BBlike; on this new layer, the peri-Weser people didn't participate to the Germanic last shift, when the peri-Elb ones and people north of them parcticipated in this shift. ATW Celtic in my mind appeared more southernly, maybe more southwest.
    Wait and see, as often!
    That's waiting for Godot Moesan :)

    With regard to the language we get in this case never clearness, the way you described it could well be the case indeed. Nevertheless thake in account that the Rhine and Weser were the ancient highways of that period that connected them with Southwest Germany! The ancient tin-way, over 'road' between the Isles and Central Europe was also a connection. The world above the Elbe had a more NE wards orientation.

    This is as close as we speculative can get. Of course archeology plays a part and nowadays genetics too. Movement and influx of people also had language consequences of course. The Tumulus line of R1b U106 is thin, but it's there....So indeed wait and see if these connection gets "thicker" in the next few years.

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    @Northerner
    The Hessen tribes of this window of time could have been from stock of Celtic or to proto-Celtic, or Northwest Block of some sort.
    + THey could have passed more cultural traits than demic ones to the N-W Netherlands and periphery.
    The uncertain ethnic (at least linguistic) nature of certain Belgae tribes shows it's difficult ot have certainty about details.
    We have just some intrication of diverse ethnies with some more distinct dominances here and there. some "in between" dialects ware faded out.
    What is still there is that Celts, even at BA, had more "EEF" when they passed to Britain (Ireland is apart here) and for me it shows a more central Europe position of departure for first well developped Celtic people. Even if this "EEF" is maybe not only the effect of demic Celtic input in Britain.
    I have exposed my present maybe shortlasting beliefs, nothing more, so I stop here waiting for more ancient data.
    Goede nacht, "oude vriend".

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