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Thread: Dynamic changes in genomic and social structures in third millennium BCE central Euro

  1. #1
    Regular Member Cato's Avatar
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    6 members found this post helpful.

    Dynamic changes in genomic and social structures in third millennium BCE central Euro

    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/35/eabi6941

    Europe’s prehistory oversaw dynamic and complex interactions of diverse societies, hitherto unexplored at detailed regional scales. Studying 271 human genomes dated ~4900 to 1600 BCE from the European heartland, Bohemia, we reveal unprecedented genetic changes and social processes. Major migrations preceded the arrival of “steppe” ancestry, and at ~2800 BCE, three genetically and culturally differentiated groups coexisted. Corded Ware appeared by 2900 BCE, were initially genetically diverse, did not derive all steppe ancestry from known Yamnaya, and assimilated females of diverse backgrounds. Both Corded Ware and Bell Beaker groups underwent dynamic changes, involving sharp reductions and complete replacements of Y-chromosomal diversity at ~2600 and ~2400 BCE, respectively, the latter accompanied by increased Neolithic-like ancestry. The Bronze Age saw new social organization emerge amid a ≥40% population turnover.



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    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Among all the low quality genetic papers coming out recently... this one is a gold mine. Totally outclasses some of its peers.

    I feel like the way they put it a 3d grader would get it.

    For instance:

    https://advances.sciencemag.org/lens...bi6941#figures

    Edit: Plus 177 references always is a good signifier a paper is going to be a banger.
    Haven't read the whole of it yet, but I trust my gut on this.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  3. #3
    Regular Member real expert's Avatar
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    This assertion caught my eyes:


    We observe a closer phylogenetic relationship between the Y chromosome lineages found in early CW and BB than in either late CW or Yamnaya and BB. R1b-L151 is the most common Y-lineage among early CW males (6 of 11, 55%) and one branch ancestral to R1b-P312 (Fig. 4A), the dominant Y-lineage in BB (5). Although it is not possible to determine whether the P312 mutation(s) occurred in one of the early CW R1b-L151 males from Bohemia, we note that most Bohemian BB males are further derived at R1b-L2/S116 (R1b1a1a2b1), in contrast to BB males from England, several of whom are derived at R1b-L21(R1b1a1a2c1), showing that English and Bohemian BB males cannot be descendants of one another, but rather diversified in parallel. A scenario of R1b-P312 originating somewhere between Bohemia and England, possibly in the vicinity of the Rhine (66, 67), followed by an expansion northwest and east is compatible with our current understanding of the phylogeography of ancient R1b-L151–derived lineages.


    Correct me if I‘m wrong, but wouldn't this be the first found R1b-L151, (ancestral to R1b-P312) among Corded Ware males?

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    so the arrival of steppe ancestry in Europe was just one of the many genetic turnovers which happened all the time, also among diverse neolithic tribes themselves

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    This assertion caught my eyes:




    Correct me if I‘m wrong, but wouldn't this be the first found R1b-L151, (ancestral to R1b-P312) among Corded Ware males?
    Is there some table with dates and Y-DNA of the samples?

  6. #6
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    Is there some table with dates and Y-DNA of the samples?

    NO E


    BLS001.A0101 Female 639269 K1a3a
    BLS002.A0101 Female 741865 K1a3a
    BNL001.A0101 Female 89038 167312 U5b2a2a
    BNL002.C0101 Male 344750 647927 U5a1c1 I2a2
    BNL003.A0101 Male 378005 713707 U5b2a2a I2a2
    BNL004.A0101 Male 390184 732205 T2b R1a1a1b~

    BNL005.A0101 Female 398535 746912 J1c
    BNL006.A0101 Male 302615 571142 K1c1 I2a2a
    BNL007.A0101 Male 165957 311657 U3a1c I2a2

    BNL008.B0101 Female 392330 735018 J1c
    BNL009.A0101 Male 220334 U5a1b R1b1a1b1a1a2 - P312
    BNL009.C0101 Male 447 821 T ?

    BNL010.C0101 Female 119438 222201 K1b1a1
    BRZ001.B0101 Male 60461 L3 I?
    BRZ002.A0101 Female 634071 K2a
    BUT001 no DNA
    BUT002.A0101 Female 240661 U5a1a1
    BUT003.A0101 Male 429364 H3v R1a1a1~ (xZ651)
    CAH001 no DNA
    CAH002 no DNA
    CAH003 no DNA
    CAH004 no DNA
    CAH005 Male 693528 R1b1 R1a1a1~ (xZ647, xZ650, xZ651)
    CAH006 no DNA
    CAH007 no DNA
    CAH008 no DNA
    CAH009 no DNA
    CAH010 Female 793971 T2a1b1a
    CAH011 no DNA
    CHL001.A0101
    CHL001.B0101 Female 735513 U2e2a1
    CHL002.A0101
    CHL002.B0101 Male 419214 H11a7 I2a (xI2a1a, xI2a1b, xI2a2b)
    CHL003.A0101
    CHL003.B0101 Male 618242 U5a1g2 R1a1a1b~
    CHL004.A0101
    CHL004.B0101
    CHL005.A0101 Male 190420 U5a2d1a R1b1a1b?
    CHL006.A0101 Female 418666 U5a1b
    CHL007.A0101 Female 187850 U5a1a1
    CHL008.A0101
    CHL008.B0101 Male 381211 K1b2a R1a1a1b
    HOL001.B0101 Female 465934 881282 T2c1d2
    HOL002.A0101 Female 406720 762490 J2b1a2
    HOL004.B0101 Female 283818 529465 V
    HOP001.B0101 Male 504071 968768 J1c2r R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (xZ2103, xZ2105)
    HOP002.A0101 Female 63084 118965 U5b
    HOP003.A0101 Male 435659 833505 J1c7 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
    HOP004.A0101 Female 423073 792913 HV
    I14167 Male 788453 U5b3 I2a1a2a
    I14168 Female 752117 U5b2b3a
    I14169 Male 833822 N1a1a1a2 R1b - V88
    I14170 Male 823853 H+16129 I2a1a2~

    I14171 Female 807073 H3
    I14172 Female 821085 U3a1
    I14173 Male 852452 K1a+195 R1b - V88
    I14174 Male 809710 H C1a2

    I14175 Female 807294 J1c2
    I14176 Male 801332 K1a4a1 R1b - V88
    I16121 Female 604494 T2c1d1
    I16122 Female 546571 V
    I7186 Female 900553 T2c1d1
    I7187 Male 898430 T2c1d+152 I2a1b1b1a
    I7188 Female 897523 N1a1a
    I7189 Female 888649 W5
    I7191 Female 909669 U5b3
    I7192 Male 911584 J1c1 G2a2a1a
    I7193 Female 874745 R1b1
    I7194 Female 890935 K1a3a
    JIN001 no DNA
    KNE001.B0101 Female 300359 557804 T2b23
    KNE002.A0101 Female 297518 559342 T2a1b1a1
    KNE003.B0101 Female 417492 779875 J1c
    KNE004.A0101 Female 168025 313498 T2b23
    KNE005.B0101 Female 99550 185765 T2b23
    KNE006.A0101 Female 77657 146038 K2a11
    KNE007.A0101 Female 264487 494219 T1a1
    KO1001.B0101 Female 154310 289076 HV
    KO1002.A0101 Male 221443 415790 X2b4 R1b1a1b1a1a (xZ2105)
    KO1003.B0101 Male 459030 872947 HV R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (xZ2103, xZ2105)
    KO1004.B0101 Male 435486 826312 T2b11 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (xZ2103, xZ2105)

    KO1005.B0101 Female 354597 665936 H1
    KO1006.A0101 Female 389056 729925 H17
    KO1007.B0101 Male 310324 607630 R1b1 R1a1a1b1
    KO1008.A0101 Male 230818 451619 U2e2a1c R1b1a1b1a1a2b1

    KO1009.A0101 Female 634619 U5a1a1
    KO1010.A0101 Female 467508 H1b
    KO1011.A0101 Female 461031 W1c
    KO1012.A0101 no dna
    KO1013.A0101 Female 607876 H3d
    KO1014.A0101 Male 525482 HV R1a1a1b~
    KO1015.A0101 Female 500111 U5a1i1
    KO1016.A0101 Female 588519 HV
    KO7001.A0201 Male 269639 547491 I4a R1a1a1b1~
    KO7002.B0101 Female 231586 464394 H24
    KO7003.A0201 Male 44778 90028 U5a1b1 R1a1~
    KOP001.B0101 Female 222015 440516 U3a1
    KOP002.B0101 Male 61313 123584 U5a2b R1b1a1b
    KOP003.B0101 Male 10055 19548 HV15 ?

    MIB001.A0101 Male 240922 472282 T2b R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (xZ2103)
    MIB002.B0101 Female 363257 697046 U4b1b1
    MIB003.B0101 Female 112545 215777 K1a1b2a
    MIB004.B0101 Male 245328 485396 R1b1 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (xZ2103)
    MIB005.A0101 Female 198921 392229 H2a1b
    MIB024.A0101 Female 217521 H1b
    MIB028.B0101 Female 806087 U5b2a2c
    MIB034.B0101 Female 837872 H7b
    MIG010.B0101 Female 313033 T2e
    MIG011.A0101 Female 452830 R1b
    MIG012.B0101 Male 316598 J1c1b1a G2a2b2a
    MIS001.A0201 Male 345584 681396 U5b1c1a R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (xZ2105)
    MIS001.A0301 Male 363027 711584 U5b1c1a R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (xZ2105)
    MIS002.A0201 Male 342299 675787 T2c1d1 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (xZ2103, xZ2105)
    MIS002.A0301 Male 339462 667168 T2c1d1 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (xZ2105)
    MIS003.B0201 Male 734 1405 ?
    MIS003.B0301 Male 2385 4774 HV9a ?
    MIS004.A0101 Male 279953 H17 I2

    MIS005.A0101 no dna
    MIS006.A0101 Male 120020 L1'2'3'4'5'6 R1b1a1b1a1a2 (xZ2103)
    OBR001.B0101 Female 81908 165018 HV6
    OBR002.A0101 Female 42151 85479 HV6
    OBR003.A0101 Male 298 618 U5a1b1 ?
    OBR003.A0102 Male 182 368 ?
    OBR003.A0103 Male 145 317 ?

    OBR004.B0101 Female 211031 410831 K2a5
    OHR001.A0101 Male 314342 H R1b1a1b1b - Z2103 (same as Yamnaya)
    OHR002.B0101 Female 788630 R1a1a
    PDA001.A0101 Female 294672 569231 U5a1b1
    PDA002.A0101 Male 367643 717836 U5a1b1 I2a2
    PDA003.A0101 Female 310799 600164 U5a1b1
    PDA004.A0101 Female 329805 637353 U5a1b1
    PDA005.A0101 Male 346860 669281 X2c1 I2a2a
    PMI001.A0301 Female 359777 695252 H6a2
    PMI002.A0101
    PMI002.B0301 Female 1110 2177 H6a
    PMI003.B0301 Female 200295 385796 N1a1a1a2
    PMI004.B0301 Male 45326 89795 H2a2b I (xI1)
    PMI006.B0301 Male 179467 353272 U5a1g1 I2a1b1~ (xI2a2)
    PMI007.A0301 Male 2397 4787 U5b3h ?

    PMI008.A0301 Female 1905 3786 N
    PMI009.A0301 Male 64909 128235 T2b R1b1a1b
    PMI010.A0101 Female 460729 H13a1a
    PMI011.A0301 Female 7620 14931 U2e2a1a
    PMI012.B0301 Female 64464 124309 J2b1a
    PNL001.B0101 Male U5a2a1 R1b1a1b1a1a1 (xZ2105)
    PNL001.C0101 Male 637153 U5a2a1 R1b1a1b1a1a (xZ2103, xZ2105)

    PRE001.A0101 Female 815686 U5b2c
    PRU001.A0101 Female 261990 507443 HV9
    PRU002.A0101 Female 340602 653047 K1a3a
    PRU003.B0101 Female 304912 586800 T2b
    PRU004.B0101 Male 312570 600470 H4a1a1a R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (xZ2105)
    PRU005.B0101 Female 172704 336129 N1a1a1a2
    PRU006.B0101 Male 115775 227328 T2b I2a1a
    ROU001.A0101 Female 628211 U5a1g2
    ROU002.A0101 Female 426496 U5b1c2
    ROU003.A0101 Female 512388 U5b1c2
    ROU004.A0101 Female 591216 U5b1c2
    ROU005.A0101 Male 445892 HV6 I2
    ROU006.merged Female 657097 H24
    ROU007.A0101 Male 646592 I4a I2a2
    TIS001.A0101 Female 38300 76264 K1b1a1
    TIS001.B0101 Male 2706 5274 H5a1
    TIS002.A0101 Female 287020 557179 H5a1
    TIS002.B0101 Female 363826 697126 H5a1
    TOU001.A0101 Male 831514 HV0a G2a2b2a1
    TUC001.A0101 Female 278239 527231 V3c
    TUC002.A0101 Female 273556 528368 J1c1
    TUC003.A0101 Male 283341 550148 J1c1b H2
    TUC004.A0101 Male 301303 582261 V3c H2
    TUC005.B0101 Male 277010 526637 H1j G2a2b2a1

    TUC006.B0101 Female 289950 546762 H1e1a
    TUC007.B0101 Female 442727 836863 K1a1
    VLI004.B0101 Female 348808 672014 U8b1b1
    VLI005 no DNA
    VLI006.B0101 Male 24906 49409 H I2a
    VLI007.B0101 Female 276724 537090 U5a2a1
    VLI008.A0101 Female 318670 617025 H1b3
    VLI008.A0201 Female H1b3
    VLI009.B0101 Female 536384 U5a2a1
    VLI010.A0101 Female 338353 647216 H5a1
    VLI011.B0101 Male 355056 690455 W3a1c R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (xZ2103, xZ2105)
    VLI012 no DNA
    VLI013 no DNA
    VLI014 no DNA
    VLI015.A0101 Male 41786 83269 N2 R1b1a1b (xZ2103)
    VLI016.B0101 Male 357645 695017 K1b1a1 R1a1a1~ (xZ649, xZ650)

    VLI017.B0101 Female 358804 687968 X2b
    VLI018.B0101 Female 3182 6479 R11'B6
    VLI019.B0101 Male 218593 432959 H5c R1a1a1~ (xZ651)
    VLI020.A0101 Female 335118 642477 I4a
    VLI021 no DNA
    VLI022.A0101 Female 130381 258020 U4b1b1
    VLI023 no DNA
    VLI024.A0101 Male 340458 667215 K1a1 R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 (xZ2103, xZ2105)
    VLI025.A0101 Male 77013 H5a2 R1b1a1b1a1a2 - P312

    VLI026.B0101 Female 306105 594164 X2b
    VLI027 no DNA
    VLI028.A0101 Male 42012 84342 J1c R1b1a1b1a1a2
    VLI029.B0101 Male 363427 706388 W3a1c R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a4a1 (xZ2105)
    VLI030.B0101 Male 82061 165001 U2e1b R1b1a1b1a1a2b1
    VLI031.B0101 Male 184549 366167 J2b1a R1b1b - V88
    VLI032.A0101 Male 159653 315879 V R1b1b - V88
    VLI033.B0101 Male 59406 118902 H1 R1b1b - V88

    VLI039.A0101 Female 342408 660013 T2b
    VLI040 no DNA
    VLI041 no DNA
    VLI042.A0101 Male 106454 211291 U5a1g2 I2a2
    VLI045.B0101 Female 335939 648053 J1c1b1a
    VLI046.A0101 Female 56581 111455 H3
    VLI047.B0101 Female 255164 495673 T2c1d1a
    VLI048 no DNA
    VLI049 no DNA
    VLI050.A0101 Female 366129 705679 H7a1
    VLI051.B0101 Male 232148 455142 U5a1d1 R1a1a1b1a2b
    VLI053.A0101 Female 15607 30889 K1b1a1
    VLI054.A0101 Male 6948 13817 HV0 I2a1b?
    VLI058.A0101 Female 233300 455225 W1i
    VLI060.A0101 Female 220606 429498 T1a1
    VLI061.A0101 Female 365453 700579 V
    VLI062 no DNA
    VLI063 no DNA
    VLI064.A0101 Female 155597 306956 W1i
    VLI065.A0101 Female 193944 382767 H2b
    VLI066 no dna
    VLI067.A0102 Female T1a1
    VLI067.B0102 Female 731150 T1a1
    VLI068 no dna
    VLI069.B0101 Female 5909 UNK not enough data
    VLI070.A0101 Female 327032 U2e1
    VPR001.A0101 Male 752540 U5a2d G2a2b2a1
    ZEL001.B0101 Female 352076 N1'5
    Last edited by kingjohn; 26-08-21 at 17:17.
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

  7. #7
    Regular Member real expert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bicicleur 2 View Post
    Is there some table with dates and Y-DNA of the samples?




    I‘ve looked up the supplementary data, Table S4 has a long list with Y-DNA of the samples. P312/ L2/S139 is the most dominant hp. Plus, I've counted the listed y-DNA.

    1xR1b – P312/ U152,L2/S139, DF1/L513/S215
    37x R1b– P312/L2/S139
    3xR1b – P312


    2xR1b- U106
    5xR1b – V88


    4xR1b- L151/xU106,xP312


    1xR1b- Z2103/Z2109


    4xR1b- L151/xU106,xP312


    1xR1b- L151


    1xR1b*
    1xR1b– M269 lowcoverage

    1xR1a*low coverage

    12xR1a- M417 (xZ645)
    7xR1a- Z645


    5xI2a2
    1xI2a2a2
    1x2xI2a1
    1xI2a1b1b1a

    1xH2
    2xH2a1

    3xG2a2

    2xG2a2a1
    1xG2a2a1a


    2xT1a1

    1xQ1b2a

    1xC1a2

  8. #8
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    I‘ve looked up the supplementary data, Table S4 has a long list with Y-DNA of the samples. P312/ L2/S139 is the most dominant hp. Plus, I've counted the listed y-DNA.

    1xR1b – P312/ U152,L2/S139, DF1/L513/S215
    37x R1b– P312/L2/S139
    3xR1b – P312


    2xR1b- U106
    5xR1b – V88


    4xR1b- L151/xU106,xP312


    1xR1b- Z2103/Z2109


    4xR1b- L151/xU106,xP312


    1xR1b- L151


    1xR1b*
    1xR1b– M269 lowcoverage

    1xR1a*low coverage

    12xR1a- M417 (xZ645)
    7xR1a- Z645


    5xI2a2
    1xI2a2a2
    1x2xI2a1
    1xI2a1b1b1a

    1xH2
    2xH2a1

    3xG2a2

    2xG2a2a1
    1xG2a2a1a


    2xT1a1

    1xQ1b2a

    1xC1a2

    are these all from table 4 all from neolithic period and WHG and not part of the crux of the paper which looks at mainly EHG ?

    The 2 x T1a1 ( not my branch )

    are neolithic samples from Bohemia

    KOB003 - T1a1 mtdna N 15yo

    KOB007 - T1a1 mtdna U5 45yo

    maybe father and son
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

  9. #9
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    6 members found this post helpful.
    I've been harping on the fact that Corded Ware does not really present as a "Yamnaya Indo-European" group archaeologically, and doesn't fit culturally the David Anthony and internet hobbyists vision of horse riding, raiding, metallurgists of the steppe for about ten years. Corded Ware barely had any copper at all, much less bronze metallurgy, and depended on stone weapons. They traveled by oxen drawn carts. There are barely any traces of horses on the other hand. They borrowed the wrist guards as well, and their own pottery was terrible. Heck, they didn't even have decent pottery until their women from "Old Europe" made it.

    All the anthrogenica types and eurogenes said I was crazy, although the latter must have been tipped off, as usual, because he changed his tone recently from his previous position that Corded Ware was virtually Yamnaya, descended from them. That has been Kristiansen's position too. Also wrong.

    When are population geneticists and internet hobbyists going to start paying attention to archaeology???

    Well, now there's genetic proof for why Corded Ware was never a good fit for Yamnaya culture, although now everybody and his cousin are saying they KNEW it wasn't a good fit. Yeah, right. That's why I had to debate and debate it over and over again and take all the hate from the usual suspects. Corded Ware weren't "the" Indo-Europeans; they were Indo-Europeanized "forest" dwellers as I insisted. The Yamnaya, with their 40-60% CHG/Iranian were the ones who put together the "Indo-European" package.

    I also proposed that for the Corded Ware people and subsequent samples to have so little CHG/Iranian farmer meant that IF they were descended from Yamnaya there must have been migrations from the Northeast of hunter-gatherer types to dilute that signature ancestry of the Indo-Europeans. That went over really well. :) Seems to be the case, though.

    How well I also remember the constant bickering for years and years about which haplogroup would have the "glory" of being REALLY Indo-European, R1b or R1a. I long ago stopped paying attention to such idiocy. Now, I'll have to go back and re-read the paper more carefully, but it seems R1a was a late arrival from the northeast, yes? Nothing really to do with the Indo-Europeans at all. My goodness; how will some people bear the heartbreak!


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  10. #10
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Simply looking at the dominant Y-DNA allready shows Yamna/CW/Bell Beaker are not the same, alltough this paper seems to suggest that the origins of CW and Bell Beaker are entangled.
    Yet all 3 have the same autosomal component + some admixture with late European neolithic/chalcolithic.
    This autosomal component was formed prior to the Yamna era, it was formed during late Khvalynsk.
    It is very likely that the PIE lived between the Samara bend (EHG) and the northern Caucasus (CHG) at the time when the steppe DNA was formed.
    R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 were amongst them.

  11. #11
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    It's a pitty we don't have more resolution on the I2a2 Unetice samples.
    I-L38 has been identified with German Urnfield and I strongly suspect it's origin is Unetice.
    It expanded around 4500 ybp, the same time as R1b-P312.

    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S2524/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I've been harping on the fact that Corded Ware does not really present as a "Yamnaya Indo-European" group archaeologically, and doesn't fit culturally the David Anthony and internet hobbyists vision of horse riding, raiding, metallurgists of the steppe for about ten years. Corded Ware barely had any copper at all, much less bronze metallurgy, and depended on stone weapons. They traveled by oxen drawn carts. There are barely any traces of horses on the other hand. They borrowed the wrist guards as well, and their own pottery was terrible. Heck, they didn't even have decent pottery until their women from "Old Europe" made it.

    All the anthrogenica types and eurogenes said I was crazy, although the latter must have been tipped off, as usual, because he changed his tone recently from his previous position that Corded Ware was virtually Yamnaya, descended from them. That has been Kristiansen's position too. Also wrong.

    When are population geneticists and internet hobbyists going to start paying attention to archaeology???

    Well, now there's genetic proof for why Corded Ware was never a good fit for Yamnaya culture, although now everybody and his cousin are saying they KNEW it wasn't a good fit. Yeah, right. That's why I had to debate and debate it over and over again and take all the hate from the usual suspects. Corded Ware weren't "the" Indo-Europeans; they were Indo-Europeanized "forest" dwellers as I insisted. The Yamnaya, with their 40-60% CHG/Iranian were the ones who put together the "Indo-European" package.

    I also proposed that for the Corded Ware people and subsequent samples to have so little CHG/Iranian farmer meant that IF they were descended from Yamnaya there must have been migrations from the Northeast of hunter-gatherer types to dilute that signature ancestry of the Indo-Europeans. That went over really well. :) Seems to be the case, though.

    How well I also remember the constant bickering for years and years about which haplogroup would have the "glory" of being REALLY Indo-European, R1b or R1a. I long ago stopped paying attention to such idiocy. Now, I'll have to go back and re-read the paper more carefully, but it seems R1a was a late arrival from the northeast, yes? Nothing really to do with the Indo-Europeans at all. My goodness; how will some people bear the heartbreak!

    The thing is, that professional geneticists based on their data concluded that Corded Ware folks were the direct descendants of the Indo-European Yamnaya who spread the Indo-European language all over Europe. According to the Haak et al. paper, the Corded Ware population from ca. 2400 BCE were genetically at least 75% similar to the Yamnaya population of the steppes, suggesting massive migrations from the steppes as a source for the Corded Ware culture. If amateurs questioned this conclusion from peer viewed papers, they were told you can't argue against science. Anyway, when going by this current study, an early group of Yamnaya or a group that was assimilated became the Forest Steppe people who gave rise to the Corded Ware. However, another possibility is that the archaeologically and historically defined Corded Ware people were not a coherent genetic group.


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    1 members found this post helpful.
    R1a maybe not that old in central
    Europe




    But it is extremely old in russia up untill now
    There some EHG remains who carry
    It the fatyanovo paper found 10,000 years
    Old remains in russia who was r1a

    https://advances.sciencemag.org/cont...b-figures-data
    Last edited by kingjohn; 27-08-21 at 14:43.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    R1a maybe not that old in central
    Europe
    But it is extremely old in russia up untill now
    There some EHG remains who carry
    It the fatyanovo paper found 10,000 years
    Old remains in russia who was r1a
    https://advances.sciencemag.org/cont...b-figures-data
    indeed, and it is the only R1a sample that old
    and R1a-YP4141 was detected in comb ceramic culture




    R1a probably arrived in northeastern Europe around the time it started splitting 18200 ybp
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/

    it probably entered from Central Asia or Siberia

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    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    The thing is, that professional geneticists based on their data concluded that Corded Ware folks were the direct descendants of the Indo-European Yamnaya who spread the Indo-European language all over Europe. According to the Haak et al. paper, the Corded Ware population from ca. 2400 BCE were genetically at least 75% similar to the Yamnaya population of the steppes, suggesting massive migrations from the steppes as a source for the Corded Ware culture. If amateurs questioned this conclusion from peer viewed papers, they were told you can't argue against science. Anyway, when going by this current study, an early group of Yamnaya or a group that was assimilated became the Forest Steppe people who gave rise to the Corded Ware. However, another possibility is that the archaeologically and historically defined Corded Ware people were not a coherent genetic group.

    that is what the paper suggests, isn't it?
    at first CW was more diverse, but later on, one line became more and more dominant

    In addition to autosomal genetic changes through time, we observe
    a sharp reduction in Y-chromosomal diversity going from five
    different lineages in early CW to a dominant (single) lineage in late
    CW (Fig. 4A). We used forward simulations to explore the demographic
    scenarios that could account for the observed reduction in
    Y-chromosomal diversity. Performing 1 million simulations of a
    population with a starting frequency of R1a-M417(xZ645) centered
    around the observed starting frequency in Bohemia_CW_Early
    (3 of 11, 0.27), we assessed the plausibility of this lineage reaching
    the observed frequency in Bohemia_CW_Late (10 of 11, 0.91) in the
    time frame of 500 years under a model of a closed population and
    random mating (Materials and Methods). We reject the “neutral”
    hypothesis, i.e., that this change in frequency occurred by chance,
    given a wide range of plausible population sizes. Instead, our results
    suggest that R1a-M417(xZ645) was subject to a nonrandom increase
    in frequency, resulting in these males having 15.79% (4.12 to 44.42%)
    more surviving offspring per generation relative to males of other
    Y-haplogroups.

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by real expert View Post
    The thing is, that professional geneticists based on their data concluded that Corded Ware folks were the direct descendants of the Indo-European Yamnaya who spread the Indo-European language all over Europe. According to the Haak et al. paper, the Corded Ware population from ca. 2400 BCE were genetically at least 75% similar to the Yamnaya population of the steppes, suggesting massive migrations from the steppes as a source for the Corded Ware culture. If amateurs questioned this conclusion from peer viewed papers, they were told you can't argue against science. Anyway, when going by this current study, an early group of Yamnaya or a group that was assimilated became the Forest Steppe people who gave rise to the Corded Ware. However, another possibility is that the archaeologically and historically defined Corded Ware people were not a coherent genetic group.

    As I said, population geneticists, in general, don't pay any attention to archaeology. The internet community is worse. That, and their own prejudices are why for so long, in the face of overwhelming archaeological data, it was argued that the Etruscans were recent migrants from the Near East. How did that turn out?

    The same is true for the whole Indo European question. Corded Ware was NEVER a good fit archaeologically or culturally for the original Indo-Europeans. That was consistently ignored, no matter all the covering of you know what that is currently going on.

    As someone else mentioned, the Ydna was also very different.

    In terms of the genetics, Haak was six years ago, and there were subsequent genetics papers which gave hints as to the reality of the situation. Plus, Haak, based on the samples they had, proposed that, as you said, Corded Ware was 75% Yamnaya "like". It was people like Kristiansen and the internet community who turned that into "they're virtually identical". That's a very different thing.

    I also don't see and never saw why people being genetically 75% similar necessarily meant that one "formed" the other. The most parsimonious explanation, it seemed to me, absent evidence of migration in the archaeology, was that they were formed from originally similar stock but were then influenced themselves by different migrations or admixtures, i.e. in the case of Yamnaya, with people who were CHG/Iranian farmer "like". As I also pointed out ad nauseam over the years, to the usual hysterical response, that's where the burial practices came from, and a lot of their cultural indices. Again, you had to pay attention to the damn archaeology. For goodness sakes, how could a horse riding or, more likely, horse taming and herding culture have formed in the midst of a forest? Horses were ideal for the flat steppe lands with their sparse vegetation. No wonder you can barely find horse remains in the early Corded Ware burial sites.

    Yamnaya people were 40-60% CHG/Iranian farmer. Yet Corded Ware was not like that. Clearly, they couldn't be "identical", even if Kristiansen wanted to see it that way, and certainly the archaeological artifacts were not identical.

    I mean, just the graphics provided in the paper are extremely telling, are they not? These were two separate groups with a different ecology, different lifestyles, and a different culture. As I repeated ad nauseam, they "present" very differently archaeologically.

    Yes, they shared dna, because they were adjacent groups on the steppe, but I have never leaned toward the idea that the founders and formers of the "Indo-European" package came from forest "steppe" people. As I've been saying for ten years, imo they were "Indo-Europeanized".

    In addition, it always seemed ridiculous to me to think that the steppe could have supported a horde of people who migrated into Central Europe. Far more likely that a lot of them came from the forested areas north of the actual steppe.

    If you can quote me something from the paper that negates that, please do so. As I said, I haven't yet gone over the paper and supplement with a fine tooth comb.

    As for R1a, I'm quite aware that it was old in Russia, but it seems likely to me that it had nothing to do with the genesis of the Indo-European culture, as I would have thought was more than hinted at given the difference in the yDna.

    The modern "Slavic" R1a is, if I'm reading the paper correctly, a "very" late arrival to Indo-Europeanization.

    This raises an interesting question about the ancient Greeks. If the samples of the first Bronze Age arrivals turn out to be R1b-Z2103, then the migration was indeed from the steppe, not the forested areas north of the steppe, and had nothing to do with Corded Ware.

    When Eurogenes came on this site to argue with me, well, really to insult me and call my opinions stupid nonsense, I told him that you could fill the phone book of a small city with all his wrong predictions and opinions, as could also be said of the people at anthrogenica, and that I would turn out to be right far more often than he (they) would. I stand by that. Anyone trying to come to valid conclusions from data has to start out by being as objective as possible in following that data, not operating from confirmation bias.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/35/eabi6941

    Corded Ware appeared by 2900 BCE, were initially genetically diverse, did not derive all steppe ancestry from known Yamnaya, and assimilated females of diverse backgrounds. Both Corded Ware and Bell Beaker groups underwent dynamic changes, involving sharp reductions and complete replacements of Y-chromosomal diversity at ~2600 and ~2400 BCE, respectively, the latter accompanied by increased Neolithic-like ancestry. The Bronze Age saw new social organization emerge amid a ≥40% population turnover.



    Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk
    what is the implication of this for all the models that use yamna as a source population for steppe ancestry in europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailchu View Post
    what is the implication of this for all the models that use yamna as a source population for steppe ancestry in europe?
    that this is wrong
    the source population is older than yamna

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As I said, population geneticists, in general, don't pay any attention to archaeology. The internet community is worse. That, and their own prejudices are why for so long, in the face of overwhelming archaeological data, it was argued that the Etruscans were recent migrants from the Near East. How did that turn out?

    The same is true for the whole Indo European question. Corded Ware was NEVER a good fit archaeologically or culturally for the original Indo-Europeans. That was consistently ignored, no matter all the covering of you know what that is currently going on.

    As someone else mentioned, the Ydna was also very different.

    In terms of the genetics, Haak was six years ago, and there were subsequent genetics papers which gave hints as to the reality of the situation. Plus, Haak, based on the samples they had, proposed that, as you said, Corded Ware was 75% Yamnaya "like". It was people like Kristiansen and the internet community who turned that into "they're virtually identical". That's a very different thing.



    I also don't see and never saw why people being genetically 75% similar necessarily meant that one "formed" the other. The most parsimonious explanation, it seemed to me, absent evidence of migration in the archaeology, was that they were formed from originally similar stock but were then influenced themselves by different migrations or admixtures, i.e. in the case of Yamnaya, with people who were CHG/Iranian farmer "like". As I also pointed out ad nauseam over the years, to the usual hysterical response, that's where the burial practices came from, and a lot of their cultural indices. Again, you had to pay attention to the damn archaeology. For goodness sakes, how could a horse riding or, more likely, horse taming and herding culture have formed in the midst of a forest? Horses were ideal for the flat steppe lands with their sparse vegetation. No wonder you can barely find horse remains in the early Corded Ware burial sites.

    Yamnaya people were 40-60% CHG/Iranian farmer. Yet Corded Ware was not like that. Clearly, they couldn't be "identical", even if Kristiansen wanted to see it that way, and certainly the archaeological artifacts were not identical.

    I mean, just the graphics provided in the paper are extremely telling, are they not? These were two separate groups with a different ecology, different lifestyles, and a different culture. As I repeated ad nauseam, they "present" very differently archaeologically.

    Yes, they shared dna, because they were adjacent groups on the steppe, but I have never leaned toward the idea that the founders and formers of the "Indo-European" package came from forest "steppe" people. As I've been saying for ten years, imo they were "Indo-Europeanized".

    In addition, it always seemed ridiculous to me to think that the steppe could have supported a horde of people who migrated into Central Europe. Far more likely that a lot of them came from the forested areas north of the actual steppe.

    If you can quote me something from the paper that negates that, please do so. As I said, I haven't yet gone over the paper and supplement with a fine tooth comb.

    As for R1a, I'm quite aware that it was old in Russia, but it seems likely to me that it had nothing to do with the genesis of the Indo-European culture, as I would have thought was more than hinted at given the difference in the yDna.

    The modern "Slavic" R1a is, if I'm reading the paper correctly, a "very" late arrival to Indo-Europeanization.

    This raises an interesting question about the ancient Greeks. If the samples of the first Bronze Age arrivals turn out to be R1b-Z2103, then the migration was indeed from the steppe, not the forested areas north of the steppe, and had nothing to do with Corded Ware.

    When Eurogenes came on this site to argue with me, well, really to insult me and call my opinions stupid nonsense, I told him that you could fill the phone book of a small city with all his wrong predictions and opinions, as could also be said of the people at anthrogenica, and that I would turn out to be right far more often than he (they) would. I stand by that. Anyone trying to come to valid conclusions from data has to start out by being as objective as possible in following that data, not operating from confirmation bias.
    I agree with you here. Anyway, our "buddy" Gaska will have a field day with this Bohemian study. Hopefully, the researchers in the upcoming Etruscan study will contextualize the DNA evidence by comprising the archaeological records.

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    It all depends on which "steppe" samples were used in various papers and by internet enthusiasts in their "modeling".

    I don't get all this "it's older than Yamna" stuff.

    If Eurogenes is correct the CHG/Iran Neo like population that formed part of Yamna moved over the Caucasus in the Mesolithic. Or does not one remember that? :)

    When does one get to be a "native" of a certain place, I wonder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It all depends on which "steppe" samples were used in various papers and by internet enthusiasts in their "modeling".

    I don't get all this "it's older than Yamna" stuff.

    If Eurogenes is correct the CHG/Iran Neo like population that formed part of Yamna moved over the Caucasus in the Mesolithic. Or does not one remember that? :)

    When does one get to be a "native" of a certain place, I wonder.
    Also, just because some Yamna samples might not be a good choice for detecting admixture in northern Europeans around 3000 BCE doesn't mean that they might not be a good choice for detecting admixture in the Balkans or certainly in Greece, or, for all we know, certain migrations into other parts of Southern Europe. We'll have to wait and see.

    I wonder if there might be something to the idea that the "new wave" that went into Spain carrying R1b didn't even speak an Indo-European language yet.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    are these all from table 4 all from neolithic period and WHG and not part of the crux of the paper which looks at mainly EHG ?

    The 2 x T1a1 ( not my branch )

    are neolithic samples from Bohemia

    KOB003 - T1a1 mtdna N 15yo

    KOB007 - T1a1 mtdna U5 45yo

    maybe father and son

    the above samples with the 3 x T1a ydna found in neolithic Karsdorf Germany and the samples of 3 x G2 ydna and 1 x H2 ydna found next door in Halberstadt and Derenburg Germany, is clearly the neolithic ydna noted in the paper

    most likely they got the data or part of it from the paper -
    Settlement burials at the Karsdorf LBK site, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany - biological ties and residential mobility.

    by Guido Brandt


    28 individuals were entombed in settlement and oblong pits.....................while the Ydna comprised of these 3 groups of Ydna , the mtDNA had a high diversity of maternal lineages of the Karsdorf community.These haplotypes belong to eight different haplogroups, including H (30.4%), K (21.7%), J (17.4%), T2 (13%), N1a (4.3%), HV (4.3%), U5a (4.3%), and U5b (4.3%)

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    https://www.academia.edu/39985565/Ar...ent_on_Bomhard

    I accept Mallory’s reading of the current consensus that theYamnaya expansion, beginning about 3000 BC into both Europeand Asia from the Pontic-Caspian steppes, represented theexpansion of late PIE languages (after the separation ofAnatolian). Putting aside the questions of how and why thatexpansion occurred, my topic is the formation and origin of theYamnaya mating network, as a genetic phenomenon; andsecondarily of the Yamnaya culture, beginning about 3300 BCwithin the Pontic-Caspian steppes, as an archaeologicalphenomenon. I also assess how pre-Yamnaya genetic andarchaeological patterns of interaction might correlate withBomhard’s hypothesis for early PIE origins.

    maybe worth reading again

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    What’s there for him to have a field day with at this point? He’ll eventually have to accept the fact that Basques have steppe autosomal DNA, despite not speaking an Indo-European language. R1b-L51 shares a common root with Z2103, at L23. Steppe autosomal DNA is always found with it, and it is connected to other WSH Y-DNA lineages, such as R1a-M417, I2a2a-L699, R1b-PF7562, R1b-Z2118, R1b-V1636, and Q1b. It’s completely undeniable at this point; it’s not 2011-2014 anymore.
    Last edited by Jack Johnson; 27-08-21 at 20:22. Reason: Additional lineages

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cato View Post
    https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/35/eabi6941

    Europe’s prehistory oversaw dynamic and complex interactions of diverse societies, hitherto unexplored at detailed regional scales. Studying 271 human genomes dated ~4900 to 1600 BCE from the European heartland, Bohemia, we reveal unprecedented genetic changes and social processes. Major migrations preceded the arrival of “steppe” ancestry, and at ~2800 BCE, three genetically and culturally differentiated groups coexisted. Corded Ware appeared by 2900 BCE, were initially genetically diverse, did not derive all steppe ancestry from known Yamnaya, and assimilated females of diverse backgrounds. Both Corded Ware and Bell Beaker groups underwent dynamic changes, involving sharp reductions and complete replacements of Y-chromosomal diversity at ~2600 and ~2400 BCE, respectively, the latter accompanied by increased Neolithic-like ancestry. The Bronze Age saw new social organization emerge amid a ≥40% population turnover.



    Inviato dal mio POT-LX1T utilizzando Tapatalk

    Thanks, very interesting paper that provides new insights, very surprising.

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