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Thread: Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

  1. #376
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Not sure if you have read this one. Its quite a good article.
    Haplogroup diversity, ranging from 3800 to 2700 bp for various clades, spanning from Colombia to India.
    Overrepresented haplogroup in the Kohanim priestly lines.

    https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-...wish-lineages/


    So here and there... there was some mingling, whether in the Balkans, Italy or Germany.
    It doesn't prove any such thing. Arabs have it too and a lot of groups in the Middle East.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

  2. #377
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think the cultural links in the wiki page, which I had also posted, gives some compelling evidence of Catacomb influence in Italy, the Balkans, and Greece. As well as Scythian, and Iranic people.
    Oh, I got no qualms with that. In fact to me it makes perfect sense. In fact if that Eneolithic L283 ever turns out to be true around Moldova. Its pretty strong evidence for your point.

    I was referring to this point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Albanians were Southern Italian-like until they received about 20% Slavic admixture it seems, to me.
    Since Catacombs despite being from a region today inhabited by Slavs, predated Slavic ethnogenesis by as much as 3000 years.

    I really think the paper using Mordovian has something to it that the public is not aware of. Reich would not let such mediocrity fly otherwise. We are missing pieces of the puzzle, and the researchers have those aces up their sleeves.

    And... for some reason its connected to Finno-Urgics.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Oh, I got no qualms with that. In fact to me it makes perfect sense. In fact if that Eneolithic L283 ever turns out to be true around Moldova. Its pretty strong evidence for your point.

    I was referring to this point:



    Since Catacombs despite being from a region today inhabited by Slavs, predated Slavic ethnogenesis by as much as 3000 years.

    I really think the paper using Mordovian has something to it that the public is not aware of. Reich would not let such mediocrity fly otherwise. We are missing pieces of the puzzle, and the researchers have those aces up their sleeves.

    And... for some reason its connected to Finno-Urgics.



    As a piece of anecdotal evidence; I score 3% Finnish on DNA.LAND.

  4. #379
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    It doesn't prove any such thing. Arabs have it too and a lot of groups in the Middle East.
    Who are these Arabs and groups in the Middle East. You got me really curious. I would think I know L283...

    And it proves something. You need people to mingle, and these Judeans did mingle with some IE people for L283 to be that high 5%-10%.
    You were adamant they would not marry "you/us", and I am not sure it is in line with the genetic facts.

    Anyways have a good night it was a pleasure.

  5. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Albanians were Southern Italian-like until they received about 20% Slavic admixture it seems, to me.
    I think it more accurate to say that people in today's Albania were southern Italian-like until the Ghegs showed up.

  6. #381
    Regular Member Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Albanians were Southern Italian-like until they received about 20% Slavic admixture it seems, to me.
    Not really, they probably lacked WHG anyway.

  7. #382
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What are you talking about????

    Did you read the paper? Where did it say the Balkanites were descended from the wealthy Near Eastern cluster of, probably, administrators etc? They specifically said they WEREN'T.

    If you're talking about the make up of the Balkan Iron Age cluster have you never heard that Greece and the Balkans were populated by farmers from Anatolia in the Neolithic ( given that the Balkans were one of the few places where you couldn't find many hunter-gatherers at all, except up by the gates)??? They formed the great culture known as "Old Europe", master metal workers,, builders of cities and artists. Now they're people to be proud of...

    Where on earth have you been for the last seven years or so?

    In terms of the Illyrians, Northeastern Italians are closer to Illyrians than the Albanians are. Heck, I'm part Tuscan and I'M closer to the Illyrians than the Albanians are...I'm also really close to the admixed Scythians, and I'm way to the west of the east/west divide in Italy.

    As for those "steppe heavy" Eastern Balkans populations, unless you have a crystal ball there's no way in hell you know what they were like autosomally, because we don't have any samples from them.

    I haven't read such an unsupported post in ages. Congratulations.

    Stop spreading baseless and erroneous information on this thread.
    Which Illyrians, are you closer to the Illyrians Proper, how you establish that. In MTA Albanians are very close to Log04 , so I would expect them to be very close to Illyrii proprii/proprie dicti.


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  8. #383
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.

    Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    I think it more accurate to say that people in today's Albania were southern Italian-like until the Ghegs showed up.
    Sure, these Gegs that are close to Log04, disappeared and showed up again. It is all magical.


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  9. #384
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Which Illyrians, are you closer to the Illyrians Proper, how you establish that. In MTA Albanians are very close to Log04 , so I would expect them to be very close to Illyrii proprii/proprie dicti.


    Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum
    Northeastern Italians are way closer; even people like Stuvane, who is from Romagna. It has to do with the east/west divide in Italy created by the Apennini.

    I don't think they're accurate, but since you like MTA:
    Roman (3.604)
    Roman + Illyrian (4.023)
    Roman + Samnite (4.53)
    Gallo-Roman + Roman (4.553)
    Samnite + Illyrian (5.859)
    Roman Hispania + Roman (7.088)
    Samnite (7.89)
    Gallo-Roman (9.674)
    Illyrian (10.27)
    Roman Hispania (13.46)


    1. Central Roman
    590 AD - Genetic Distance: 3.604 - SZ43
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users







    2. Central Roman
    630 AD - Genetic Distance: 4.502 - CL36
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    3. Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
    1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 5.422 - Log02_cap
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    4. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy
    905 AD - Genetic Distance: 5.953 - R60
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    5. Protovillanovia Martinsicuro
    930 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.192 - R1
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    6. Etruscan Tarquinii Italy
    800 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.355 - TAQ003
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    7. Central Roman
    590 AD - Genetic Distance: 6.736 - SZ36
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    8. Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
    1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.046 - Log02_wgs
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    9. Ancient Venosa Samnite
    400 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.89 - VEN016
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    10. Roman Outlier Lombard Grave
    590 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.333 - SZ37
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    11. Late Roman Empire Crypta Balbi
    500 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.36 - R107
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    12. Etruscan Tarquinii Italy
    800 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.42 - TAQ009
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    13. Tivoli Palace Late Renaissance
    1650 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.512 - R970
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    14. Etruria Iron Age Italy
    1000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.556 - ETR013
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    15. Roman Empire Monterotondo
    165 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.711 - R1540
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    16. Etruscan Populonia
    400 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.743 - POP001
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    17. Roman Outlier Lombard Grave
    590 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.777 - SZ31
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    18. Central Roman
    590 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.932 - SZ32
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    19. Etruscan Tarquinii Italy
    800 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.424 - TAQ011
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    20. Roman/Illyrian Celio Military Hospital
    500 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.478 - R36
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    21. Medieval Italy Abbadia SS Plague
    1348 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.536 - BSS31
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    22. Tuscan Medieval Cancelleria Basilica
    1350 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.548 - R1290
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    23. Imperial Rome Cluana Ancona
    165 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.566 - R835
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    24. Gallo-Roman
    590 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.674 - SZ28
    Top
    98 %
    match vs all users



    25. Central Roman
    580 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.687 - CL121
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    26. Etruria Iron Age Italy
    1000 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.699 - ETR003
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    27. Avar Szolad Hungary
    700 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.712 - SZ1
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    28. North Roman Warrior
    590 AD - Genetic Distance: 10.03 - NS3c
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    29. Scythian Southern Moldova
    270 BC - Genetic Distance: 10.07 - scy192
    Top
    98 %
    match vs all users



    30. Byzantine Roman Warrior
    605 AD - Genetic Distance: 10.16 - NS3b
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    31. Skeleton Lake Traveller - Hellenic
    1805 AD - Genetic Distance: 10.17 - I3404
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    32. Illyrian / Dalmatian
    1200 BC - Genetic Distance: 10.27 - I3313
    Top
    96 %
    match vs all users




    Since you also seem to like K13, which I don't...

    Distance to: Angela
    2.93497871 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    5.41744405 CL36_longobard_north_italy
    5.73090743 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    6.05641808 R1287_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
    6.59609733 SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp
    6.59807548 SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp
    6.86632362 R33_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
    6.93144285 R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy
    7.32957707 R55_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy
    7.39407871 I7424_morisco_
    7.40771220 I7041_Hungary_BA_brother.I7043_4300_ybp
    7.63038007 CL23_longobard_north_italy
    7.68359942 Greece_MBA_Log02
    7.83203039 R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
    7.92385007 SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century
    8.08064973 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    8.12940342 R1285_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
    8.34281128 R111_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
    8.41153969 col018_col018_M_R1b0Z2123_T2b_
    8.50960046 I7425_morisco_
    8.61828869 scy300_SG_Moldova_Scythian_SG
    8.62188494 I3499_Croatia_Starcevo_EN_o_4725_ybp
    8.71884167 STR535_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp
    8.89206388 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    8.97791178 SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp

    Those aren't Langobards; they're Romans.

    K12b from Vahaduo
    Distance to: Angela
    5.95522460 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    5.96391650 I8475_NE_Iberia_RomP_atypical
    6.06853360 I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge
    6.16497364 R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    6.20277357 R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    6.36923857 Szolad43
    6.86863888 I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN
    6.88056684 R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    6.99997143 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.16744724 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    7.41179465 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.69315930 Collegno36
    8.27704053 scy197_Scythian
    8.39610029 Szolad28
    8.75462164 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    8.83820117 scy192_Scythian
    8.85023164 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    8.99692725 Szolad31
    9.01075469 R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    9.01258010 Collegno23
    9.10639336 R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
    9.23910169 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    9.25401534 R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    9.40637550 R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio
    9.44550687 R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

    From Jovialis, the most complete set using K12b:
    Distance to: Angela
    5.04939600 MOK17A:Zegarac_2021
    5.96391650 I8475:Olalde_2019
    6.06853360 Croatia_LBA:I3313:Mathieson_2018
    6.10643922 Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R111:Antoni o_2019
    6.11085919 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1287:Antonio_2019
    6.16497364 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1285:Antonio_2019
    6.36923857 Szolad43:Amorim_2018
    6.39419268 ETR010:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.66446547 TAQ022:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.71269692 Bulgaria_EBA:I2176:Mathieson_2018
    6.86863888 Vucedol:I3499:Mathieson_2018
    7.09575930 I1979:Olalde_2018
    7.26718653 POP001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    7.33042973 Bulgaria_EBA:I2175:Mathieson_2018
    7.66150116 MA2197amgaard_2018
    7.69315930 Collegno36:Amorim_2018
    7.90459993 MOK31:Zegarac_2021
    8.05195628 VET001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    8.13190630 Scythian:scy197:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
    8.26525257 TAQ006:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    8.33593426 TAQ020:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    8.36580540 Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
    8.39610029 Szolad28:Amorim_2018
    8.80221563 Hungary_BA:I7041:Olalde_2018
    8.83255342 Bulgaria_EBA:Bul6:Mathieson_2018
    8.88801440 ETR006:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    8.96155678 TAQ009:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    8.99692725 Szolad31:Amorim_2018
    9.01104322 C6-Celio_Late_Antiquity:R36:Antonio_2019
    9.01258010 Collegno23:Amorim_2018
    9.04024889 VEU001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    9.05317624 Scythian:scy192:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
    9.10909436 Latini_IA:R1016:Antonio_2019
    9.17791915 C7-Mausole_di_Augusto_Late_Antiquity:R33:Antonio_2019
    9.20749152 Bulgaria_EBA:Bul10:Mathieson_2018
    9.25401534 C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R120:An tonio_2019
    9.27407677 ETR013:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    9.28820758 TAQ011:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    9.31211576 Scythian:scy300:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
    9.35244888 Croatia_EMBA:I4331:Mathieson_2018
    9.36452882 VOL001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    9.44751819 I5015:Olalde_2018
    9.50057893 CSN013:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    9.58759615 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1283:Antonio_2019
    9.59114696 Bulgaria_BA:I2520:Mathieson_2018
    9.65696122 Croatia_EMBA:I4332:Mathieson_2018
    9.65707513 Beaker_Central_Europe:I2364:Olalde_2018
    9.77791900 C7-Crypta_Balbi_Late_Antiquity:R110:Antonio_2019
    9.87484177 Protovillanovan_IA:R1:Antonio_2019
    9.91709131 ans007:Sánchez-Quinto_2019


    Target: Angela
    Distance: 0.5327% / 0.53268546 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    23.7 Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome
    19.9 TAQ006
    15.8 TAQ022
    10.9 MOK17A
    10.4 Baden_LCA
    7.9 I8475
    6.5 I3587
    4.9 Latini_IA



    Target: Angela
    Distance: 0.5327% / 0.53268546 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    23.7 Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome
    19.9 TAQ006
    15.8 TAQ022
    10.9 MOK17A
    10.4 Baden_LCA
    7.9 I8475
    6.5 I3587
    4.9 Latini_IA

  10. #385
    Regular Member Juan.delajara's Avatar
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    Southern European-mediterranean
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ralphie Boy View Post
    The Roman Greek clusters or is close to the haplogroup J2a-L70 fellow from Viminacium. The Antonio et al. Rome L70 C5 sample R136 plots between Cyprus and south Italy. These two look like modern Aegean islanders or Cypriots. It is not surprising, according to YFull, with a modern basal sample in the Levant and many in Turkey. As far as my own L70 in my bloodline, I have no idea what are the subbranches, but this ancestor may have from the Levant or Anatolia at some point, with the eastern Roman contacts.
    J2 L70 is probably Anatolian and/or greek in origin, as the Finocchio paper stated on 2018. If you check on Yfull ''live'' you can see the two basal samples at the moment are from Spain and Albania. It was probably spread to western Europe through classical greeks on the IX century BCE, although its first expansion, specially on the eastern Mediterranean, could have been with the Myceaneans and/or other Aegean/Anatolian people. Maybe L70 was part of Magna Graecia (we will hopefully have further news from the incoming papers), and then part of the big roman expansion all over Europe, as I personally think that is the case of the Viminacium individual.

  11. #386
    Regular Member
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
    Albanian, South-Gheg
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    I think it more accurate to say that people in today's Albania were southern Italian-like until the Ghegs showed up.

    Thats a misnomer, you mean the proto-Albanians.

  12. #387
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    I never gave it much thought, but it's interesting that I'm closest on Jovialis' 12b to someone from the Maros Culture in the Bronze Age.

    EBA necropolis of Mokrin, located near the town of Kikinda in the northern Banat, Serbia. The necropolis was used by a population belonging to the Maros culture (2700–1500 cal BC), which encompasses a set of communities extending through southeastern Hungary, western Romania, and northern Serbia37 (Fig. 1; Supplementary information 1). Radiocarbon dating indicates that the Mokrin necropolis was used for 300 years, from around 2100–1800 cal BC3

    Distance to: MOK17A:Zegarac_2021
    4.55975877 Italian_Romagna
    4.79056364 French_Corsica
    4.86831593 Italian_Tuscany
    5.84622819 Italian_Marche
    6.07696470 Italian_Emilia
    6.50433701 Italian_Liguria
    6.89936954 Italian_Lazio
    8.70247666 Italian_Lombardy
    9.95629951 Italian_Piedmont
    9.97372548 Italian_Veneto
    10.24577474 Albanian
    11.18326428 Albanian_Kosovo

  13. #388
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    ^^
    Olalde et al 2019 ( Doubtless a Roman from Roman Era Empuries in Catalonia)

    Distance to: I8475:Olalde_2019
    5.28160960 French_Corsica
    5.50402580 Italian_Liguria
    6.36328531 Italian_Emilia
    6.74143902 Italian_Tuscany
    7.01267424 Italian_Lombardy
    7.79796127 Italian_Piedmont
    8.50914214 Italian_Romagna
    9.16421846 Italian_Veneto
    9.93606562 Spanish_Canarias
    10.10349259 Swiss_Italian
    10.76134583 Italian_Marche
    10.93044830 Portuguese
    11.32834498 Italian_Lazio

  14. #389
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J2b2-L283/FT29003

    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I never gave it much thought, but it's interesting that I'm closest on Jovialis' 12b to someone from the Maros Culture in the Bronze Age.

    EBA necropolis of Mokrin, located near the town of Kikinda in the northern Banat, Serbia. The necropolis was used by a population belonging to the Maros culture (2700–1500 cal BC), which encompasses a set of communities extending through southeastern Hungary, western Romania, and northern Serbia37 (Fig. 1; Supplementary information 1). Radiocarbon dating indicates that the Mokrin necropolis was used for 300 years, from around 2100–1800 cal BC3

    Distance to: MOK17A:Zegarac_2021
    4.55975877 Italian_Romagna
    4.79056364 French_Corsica
    4.86831593 Italian_Tuscany
    5.84622819 Italian_Marche
    6.07696470 Italian_Emilia
    6.50433701 Italian_Liguria
    6.89936954 Italian_Lazio
    8.70247666 Italian_Lombardy
    9.95629951 Italian_Piedmont
    9.97372548 Italian_Veneto
    10.24577474 Albanian
    11.18326428 Albanian_Kosovo
    I am guessing that is the L283 sample. Earliest European L283 to date.

  15. #390
    Regular Member torzio's Avatar
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    Ethnic group
    North Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Which Illyrians, are you closer to the Illyrians Proper, how you establish that. In MTA Albanians are very close to Log04 , so I would expect them to be very close to Illyrii proprii/proprie dicti.


    Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum

    the term Illyrii proprii/proprie dicti. was only done by Pliny the Elder in AD times to describe people south of southern Dalmatians ..............no one else used this term
    "Illyrii Proprie Dicti" were the Illyrians proper, so called by Pliny (23–79 AD) in his Natural History. They later formed the Docleatae. They were the Taulantii, the Pleraei or Pyraei, the Endirudini, Sasaei, Grabaei, Labeatae.

    The Greeks wrote .....Ancient Greek writers used the name "Illyrian" to describe peoples between the Liburnians and Epirus. 4th-century BC Greek writers clearly separated the people along the Adriatic coast from the Illyrians,
    Clearly indicating only the Dalmatians as Illyrian.............because Epirus is where the bulk of modern albania and NW greece are today ............the Epirote tribes where 14 in total

    Roman Illyricum comprised of all tribes between the Histrians of Istria , Slovenia through the Liburnians of north Croatia , through the Dalmatians of southern Croatia , through all of Montenegro to the Drin river ...............south of this was the Epirotes as per Roman writers


    The 4 year long, Great illyrian revolt against the Romans was only by Dalmatian and Pannonian tribes against the Roman Empire
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

  16. #391
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    the term Illyrii proprii/proprie dicti. was only done by Pliny the Elder in AD times to describe people south of southern Dalmatians ..............no one else used this term
    "Illyrii Proprie Dicti" were the Illyrians proper, so called by Pliny (23–79 AD) in his Natural History. They later formed the Docleatae. They were the Taulantii, the Pleraei or Pyraei, the Endirudini, Sasaei, Grabaei, Labeatae.

    The Greeks wrote .....Ancient Greek writers used the name "Illyrian" to describe peoples between the Liburnians and Epirus. 4th-century BC Greek writers clearly separated the people along the Adriatic coast from the Illyrians,
    Clearly indicating only the Dalmatians as Illyrian.............because Epirus is where the bulk of modern albania and NW greece are today ............the Epirote tribes where 14 in total

    Roman Illyricum comprised of all tribes between the Histrians of Istria , Slovenia through the Liburnians of north Croatia , through the Dalmatians of southern Croatia , through all of Montenegro to the Drin river ...............south of this was the Epirotes as per Roman writers


    The 4 year long, Great illyrian revolt against the Romans was only by Dalmatian and Pannonian tribes against the Roman Empire
    Sure man whatever you say.


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  17. #392
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Northeastern Italians are way closer; even people like Stuvane, who is from Romagna. It has to do with the east/west divide in Italy created by the Apennini.

    I don't think they're accurate, but since you like MTA:
    Roman (3.604)
    Roman + Illyrian (4.023)
    Roman + Samnite (4.53)
    Gallo-Roman + Roman (4.553)
    Samnite + Illyrian (5.859)
    Roman Hispania + Roman (7.088)
    Samnite (7.89)
    Gallo-Roman (9.674)
    Illyrian (10.27)
    Roman Hispania (13.46)


    1. Central Roman
    590 AD - Genetic Distance: 3.604 - SZ43
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users







    2. Central Roman
    630 AD - Genetic Distance: 4.502 - CL36
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    3. Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
    1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 5.422 - Log02_cap
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    4. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy
    905 AD - Genetic Distance: 5.953 - R60
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    5. Protovillanovia Martinsicuro
    930 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.192 - R1
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    6. Etruscan Tarquinii Italy
    800 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.355 - TAQ003
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    7. Central Roman
    590 AD - Genetic Distance: 6.736 - SZ36
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    8. Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
    1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.046 - Log02_wgs
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    9. Ancient Venosa Samnite
    400 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.89 - VEN016
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    10. Roman Outlier Lombard Grave
    590 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.333 - SZ37
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    11. Late Roman Empire Crypta Balbi
    500 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.36 - R107
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    12. Etruscan Tarquinii Italy
    800 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.42 - TAQ009
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    13. Tivoli Palace Late Renaissance
    1650 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.512 - R970
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    14. Etruria Iron Age Italy
    1000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.556 - ETR013
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    15. Roman Empire Monterotondo
    165 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.711 - R1540
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    16. Etruscan Populonia
    400 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.743 - POP001
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    17. Roman Outlier Lombard Grave
    590 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.777 - SZ31
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    18. Central Roman
    590 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.932 - SZ32
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    19. Etruscan Tarquinii Italy
    800 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.424 - TAQ011
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    20. Roman/Illyrian Celio Military Hospital
    500 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.478 - R36
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    21. Medieval Italy Abbadia SS Plague
    1348 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.536 - BSS31
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    22. Tuscan Medieval Cancelleria Basilica
    1350 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.548 - R1290
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    23. Imperial Rome Cluana Ancona
    165 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.566 - R835
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    24. Gallo-Roman
    590 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.674 - SZ28
    Top
    98 %
    match vs all users



    25. Central Roman
    580 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.687 - CL121
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    26. Etruria Iron Age Italy
    1000 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.699 - ETR003
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    27. Avar Szolad Hungary
    700 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.712 - SZ1
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    28. North Roman Warrior
    590 AD - Genetic Distance: 10.03 - NS3c
    Top
    99 %
    match vs all users



    29. Scythian Southern Moldova
    270 BC - Genetic Distance: 10.07 - scy192
    Top
    98 %
    match vs all users



    30. Byzantine Roman Warrior
    605 AD - Genetic Distance: 10.16 - NS3b
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    31. Skeleton Lake Traveller - Hellenic
    1805 AD - Genetic Distance: 10.17 - I3404
    Top
    100 %
    match vs all users



    32. Illyrian / Dalmatian
    1200 BC - Genetic Distance: 10.27 - I3313
    Top
    96 %
    match vs all users




    Since you also seem to like K13, which I don't...

    Distance to: Angela
    2.93497871 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp
    5.41744405 CL36_longobard_north_italy
    5.73090743 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp
    6.05641808 R1287_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
    6.59609733 SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp
    6.59807548 SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp
    6.86632362 R33_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
    6.93144285 R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy
    7.32957707 R55_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy
    7.39407871 I7424_morisco_
    7.40771220 I7041_Hungary_BA_brother.I7043_4300_ybp
    7.63038007 CL23_longobard_north_italy
    7.68359942 Greece_MBA_Log02
    7.83203039 R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
    7.92385007 SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century
    8.08064973 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp
    8.12940342 R1285_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
    8.34281128 R111_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
    8.41153969 col018_col018_M_R1b0Z2123_T2b_
    8.50960046 I7425_morisco_
    8.61828869 scy300_SG_Moldova_Scythian_SG
    8.62188494 I3499_Croatia_Starcevo_EN_o_4725_ybp
    8.71884167 STR535_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp
    8.89206388 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp
    8.97791178 SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp

    Those aren't Langobards; they're Romans.

    K12b from Vahaduo
    Distance to: Angela
    5.95522460 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete
    5.96391650 I8475_NE_Iberia_RomP_atypical
    6.06853360 I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge
    6.16497364 R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    6.20277357 R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    6.36923857 Szolad43
    6.86863888 I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN
    6.88056684 R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
    6.99997143 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.16744724 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy
    7.41179465 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge
    7.69315930 Collegno36
    8.27704053 scy197_Scythian
    8.39610029 Szolad28
    8.75462164 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge
    8.83820117 scy192_Scythian
    8.85023164 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge
    8.99692725 Szolad31
    9.01075469 R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria
    9.01258010 Collegno23
    9.10639336 R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima
    9.23910169 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge
    9.25401534 R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia
    9.40637550 R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio
    9.44550687 R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto

    From Jovialis, the most complete set using K12b:
    Distance to: Angela
    5.04939600 MOK17A:Zegarac_2021
    5.96391650 I8475:Olalde_2019
    6.06853360 Croatia_LBA:I3313:Mathieson_2018
    6.10643922 Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R111:Antoni o_2019
    6.11085919 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1287:Antonio_2019
    6.16497364 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1285:Antonio_2019
    6.36923857 Szolad43:Amorim_2018
    6.39419268 ETR010:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.66446547 TAQ022:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.71269692 Bulgaria_EBA:I2176:Mathieson_2018
    6.86863888 Vucedol:I3499:Mathieson_2018
    7.09575930 I1979:Olalde_2018
    7.26718653 POP001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    7.33042973 Bulgaria_EBA:I2175:Mathieson_2018
    7.66150116 MA2197amgaard_2018
    7.69315930 Collegno36:Amorim_2018
    7.90459993 MOK31:Zegarac_2021
    8.05195628 VET001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    8.13190630 Scythian:scy197:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
    8.26525257 TAQ006:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    8.33593426 TAQ020:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    8.36580540 Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017
    8.39610029 Szolad28:Amorim_2018
    8.80221563 Hungary_BA:I7041:Olalde_2018
    8.83255342 Bulgaria_EBA:Bul6:Mathieson_2018
    8.88801440 ETR006:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    8.96155678 TAQ009:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    8.99692725 Szolad31:Amorim_2018
    9.01104322 C6-Celio_Late_Antiquity:R36:Antonio_2019
    9.01258010 Collegno23:Amorim_2018
    9.04024889 VEU001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    9.05317624 Scythian:scy192:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
    9.10909436 Latini_IA:R1016:Antonio_2019
    9.17791915 C7-Mausole_di_Augusto_Late_Antiquity:R33:Antonio_2019
    9.20749152 Bulgaria_EBA:Bul10:Mathieson_2018
    9.25401534 C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R120:An tonio_2019
    9.27407677 ETR013:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    9.28820758 TAQ011:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    9.31211576 Scythian:scy300:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
    9.35244888 Croatia_EMBA:I4331:Mathieson_2018
    9.36452882 VOL001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    9.44751819 I5015:Olalde_2018
    9.50057893 CSN013:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    9.58759615 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1283:Antonio_2019
    9.59114696 Bulgaria_BA:I2520:Mathieson_2018
    9.65696122 Croatia_EMBA:I4332:Mathieson_2018
    9.65707513 Beaker_Central_Europe:I2364:Olalde_2018
    9.77791900 C7-Crypta_Balbi_Late_Antiquity:R110:Antonio_2019
    9.87484177 Protovillanovan_IA:R1:Antonio_2019
    9.91709131 ans007:Sánchez-Quinto_2019


    Target: Angela
    Distance: 0.5327% / 0.53268546 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    23.7 Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome
    19.9 TAQ006
    15.8 TAQ022
    10.9 MOK17A
    10.4 Baden_LCA
    7.9 I8475
    6.5 I3587
    4.9 Latini_IA



    Target: Angela
    Distance: 0.5327% / 0.53268546 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    23.7 Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome
    19.9 TAQ006
    15.8 TAQ022
    10.9 MOK17A
    10.4 Baden_LCA
    7.9 I8475
    6.5 I3587
    4.9 Latini_IA
    I am not sure if you understood what I said.

    If you want to compare Albanians with Illyrians start with South Illyrian, or Illyrian Proper. Since no sample have come yet from Albania , you may use Log04 to give you a hint, since is closer that the samples from Dalmatia. Albanian take their name from Albanoi tribe so first you should start with them or samples in their proximity.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi

    Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
    1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 17.23 - Log04_wgs_trim5bp
    Top 90 % match vs all users


    Closest Modern

    1. Kosovar (10.17)
    2. Romanian (10.39)
    3. Bosnian (11.01)
    4. Bulgarian (11.17)
    5. Serbian (11.56)
    6. North_Italian (12.04)
    7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
    8. Macedonian (13.03)



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  18. #393
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    Ethnic group
    Albanian
    Country: Albania



    Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Apollonia, was founded in 588 BC. Greek colonists from the city of Corinth and Corfu. It was originally known as Girakia in honor of the colonist leader Giraks. The name was later changed to honor the memory of the god Apollo. Apollonia lay on the territory of Tavlantia.

    https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperi...paperid=107705
    So why you post studies for Caucasian Albania. You believe that is relevant for Apollonia.


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  19. #394
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    So why you pas studies for Caucasian Albania. You that is relevant for Apollonia.


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    Guy is mental.

  20. #395
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Guy is mental.
    Than I feel sorry for him.


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  21. #396
    Regular Member Archetype0ne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I am not sure if you understood what I said.

    If you want to campare Albanians with Illyrians start with South Illyrian, or Illyrian Proper. Since no sample have come yet from Albania , you may use Log04 to give you a hint, since is closer that the samples from Dalmatia. Albanian take their name from Albanoi tribe so first you should start with them or samples in their proximity.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi

    Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
    1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 17.23 - Log04_wgs_trim5bp
    Top 90 % match vs all users


    Closest Modern

    1. Kosovar (10.17)
    2. Romanian (10.39)
    3. Bosnian (11.01)
    4. Bulgarian (11.17)
    5. Serbian (11.56)
    6. North_Italian (12.04)
    7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
    8. Macedonian (13.03)



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    Log02 should give you a better fit. Log02 is closer than Log04 from what I have seen.

  22. #397
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    Ethnic group
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    Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Log02 should give you a better fit. Log02 is closer than Log04 from what I have seen.
    Yes but Albanians are not the top match.

    Here is

    Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
    1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 11.99 - Log02_wgs
    Top 98 % match vs all users


    Closest Modern

    1. Tuscan (5.516)
    2. North_Italian (6.652)
    3. Albanian_Tosk (9.258)
    4. Kosovar (11.80)
    5. Greek_Thessaly (11.97)
    6. Italian_Abruzzo (12.44)
    7. West_Sicilian (12.77)
    8. Greek (12.93)



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  23. #398
    Advisor Angela's Avatar
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    Country: USA - New York



    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I am not sure if you understood what I said.

    If you want to compare Albanians with Illyrians start with South Illyrian, or Illyrian Proper. Since no sample have come yet from Albania , you may use Log04 to give you a hint, since is closer that the samples from Dalmatia. Albanian take their name from Albanoi tribe so first you should start with them or samples in their proximity.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi

    Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
    1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 17.23 - Log04_wgs_trim5bp
    Top 90 % match vs all users


    Closest Modern

    1. Kosovar (10.17)
    2. Romanian (10.39)
    3. Bosnian (11.01)
    4. Bulgarian (11.17)
    5. Serbian (11.56)
    6. North_Italian (12.04)
    7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
    8. Macedonian (13.03)



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    No one has any idea which of those two samples is closest to the "Illyrians"; maybe neither of them is...

    You realize that, right????

    Get back to me when you have a sample from the right period, with the right burial context. Then we'll see who is closest to them. Not, by the way, who is descended from people like him, but who has similar proportions of ancient populations.

  24. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No one has any idea which of those two samples is closest to the "Illyrians"; maybe neither of them is...

    You realize that, right????

    Get back to me when you have a sample from the right period, with the right burial context. Then we'll see who is closest to them. Not, by the way, who is descended from people like him, but who has similar proportions of ancient populations.
    A valid point which should apply to the all other samples as well, including Myceneans.

  25. #400
    Regular Member blevins13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    No one has any idea which of those two samples is closest to the "Illyrians"; maybe neither of them is...

    You realize that, right????

    Get back to me when you have a sample from the right period, with the right burial context. Then we'll see who is closest to them. Not, by the way, who is descended from people like him, but who has similar proportions of ancient populations.
    You realizing that the samples that you are using to validate your point are geographically closer to Italy than Albania. I will get back to you when samples will came from Albania, but meanwhile stop drawing conclusions that Italian are closer to Illyrians that Albanians. They are closer to the Illyrian Dalmatian Tribe but not to all Illyrians, especially the South Illyrians, namely Albanoi.



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