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Oh, I got no qualms with that. In fact to me it makes perfect sense. In fact if that Eneolithic L283 ever turns out to be true around Moldova. Its pretty strong evidence for your point.
I was referring to this point:
Since Catacombs despite being from a region today inhabited by Slavs, predated Slavic ethnogenesis by as much as 3000 years.
I really think the paper using Mordovian has something to it that the public is not aware of. Reich would not let such mediocrity fly otherwise. We are missing pieces of the puzzle, and the researchers have those aces up their sleeves.
And... for some reason its connected to Finno-Urgics.
“Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”
― Franz Kafka
Who are these Arabs and groups in the Middle East. You got me really curious. I would think I know L283...
And it proves something. You need people to mingle, and these Judeans did mingle with some IE people for L283 to be that high 5%-10%.
You were adamant they would not marry "you/us", and I am not sure it is in line with the genetic facts.
Anyways have a good night it was a pleasure.
Which Illyrians, are you closer to the Illyrians Proper, how you establish that. In MTA Albanians are very close to Log04 , so I would expect them to be very close to Illyrii proprii/proprie dicti.
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Sure, these Gegs that are close to Log04, disappeared and showed up again. It is all magical.
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Northeastern Italians are way closer; even people like Stuvane, who is from Romagna. It has to do with the east/west divide in Italy created by the Apennini.
I don't think they're accurate, but since you like MTA:
Roman (3.604)
Roman + Illyrian (4.023)
Roman + Samnite (4.53)
Gallo-Roman + Roman (4.553)
Samnite + Illyrian (5.859)
Roman Hispania + Roman (7.088)
Samnite (7.89)
Gallo-Roman (9.674)
Illyrian (10.27)
Roman Hispania (13.46)
1. Central Roman
590 AD - Genetic Distance: 3.604 - SZ43
Top100 %match vs all users
2. Central Roman
630 AD - Genetic Distance: 4.502 - CL36
Top100 %match vs all users
3. Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 5.422 - Log02_cap
Top100 %match vs all users
4. Tuscan Medieval Villa Magna Italy
905 AD - Genetic Distance: 5.953 - R60
Top100 %match vs all users
5. Protovillanovia Martinsicuro
930 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.192 - R1
Top99 %match vs all users
6. Etruscan Tarquinii Italy
800 BC - Genetic Distance: 6.355 - TAQ003
Top100 %match vs all users
7. Central Roman
590 AD - Genetic Distance: 6.736 - SZ36
Top100 %match vs all users
8. Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.046 - Log02_wgs
Top99 %match vs all users
9. Ancient Venosa Samnite
400 BC - Genetic Distance: 7.89 - VEN016
Top100 %match vs all users
10. Roman Outlier Lombard Grave
590 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.333 - SZ37
Top99 %match vs all users
11. Late Roman Empire Crypta Balbi
500 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.36 - R107
Top100 %match vs all users
12. Etruscan Tarquinii Italy
800 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.42 - TAQ009
Top100 %match vs all users
13. Tivoli Palace Late Renaissance
1650 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.512 - R970
Top100 %match vs all users
14. Etruria Iron Age Italy
1000 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.556 - ETR013
Top100 %match vs all users
15. Roman Empire Monterotondo
165 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.711 - R1540
Top100 %match vs all users
16. Etruscan Populonia
400 BC - Genetic Distance: 8.743 - POP001
Top100 %match vs all users
17. Roman Outlier Lombard Grave
590 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.777 - SZ31
Top100 %match vs all users
18. Central Roman
590 AD - Genetic Distance: 8.932 - SZ32
Top99 %match vs all users
19. Etruscan Tarquinii Italy
800 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.424 - TAQ011
Top100 %match vs all users
20. Roman/Illyrian Celio Military Hospital
500 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.478 - R36
Top99 %match vs all users
21. Medieval Italy Abbadia SS Plague
1348 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.536 - BSS31
Top100 %match vs all users
22. Tuscan Medieval Cancelleria Basilica
1350 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.548 - R1290
Top100 %match vs all users
23. Imperial Rome Cluana Ancona
165 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.566 - R835
Top100 %match vs all users
24. Gallo-Roman
590 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.674 - SZ28
Top98 %match vs all users
25. Central Roman
580 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.687 - CL121
Top99 %match vs all users
26. Etruria Iron Age Italy
1000 BC - Genetic Distance: 9.699 - ETR003
Top100 %match vs all users
27. Avar Szolad Hungary
700 AD - Genetic Distance: 9.712 - SZ1
Top99 %match vs all users
28. North Roman Warrior
590 AD - Genetic Distance: 10.03 - NS3c
Top99 %match vs all users
29. Scythian Southern Moldova
270 BC - Genetic Distance: 10.07 - scy192
Top98 %match vs all users
30. Byzantine Roman Warrior
605 AD - Genetic Distance: 10.16 - NS3b
Top100 %match vs all users
31. Skeleton Lake Traveller - Hellenic
1805 AD - Genetic Distance: 10.17 - I3404
Top100 %match vs all users
32. Illyrian / Dalmatian
1200 BC - Genetic Distance: 10.27 - I3313
Top96 %match vs all users
Since you also seem to like K13, which I don't...
Distance to: Angela 2.93497871 SZ43_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1431_ybp 5.41744405 CL36_longobard_north_italy 5.73090743 I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp 6.05641808 R1287_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy 6.59609733 SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp 6.59807548 SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp 6.86632362 R33_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy 6.93144285 R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy 7.32957707 R55_Lazio_Rome_Late_Medieval_Italy 7.39407871 I7424_morisco_ 7.40771220 I7041_Hungary_BA_brother.I7043_4300_ybp 7.63038007 CL23_longobard_north_italy 7.68359942 Greece_MBA_Log02 7.83203039 R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity 7.92385007 SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century 8.08064973 I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp 8.12940342 R1285_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy 8.34281128 R111_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial 8.41153969 col018_col018_M_R1b0Z2123_T2b_ 8.50960046 I7425_morisco_ 8.61828869 scy300_SG_Moldova_Scythian_SG 8.62188494 I3499_Croatia_Starcevo_EN_o_4725_ybp 8.71884167 STR535_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp 8.89206388 I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp 8.97791178 SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
Those aren't Langobards; they're Romans.
K12b from Vahaduo
Distance to: Angela 5.95522460 I9123_Bronze_Age_Armenoi_Crete 5.96391650 I8475_NE_Iberia_RomP_atypical 6.06853360 I3313_Balkans_BronzeAge 6.16497364 R1285_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria 6.20277357 R1287_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria 6.36923857 Szolad43 6.86863888 I3499_NWBalkans_PannonianPlain_Vucedol_EN 6.88056684 R111_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis 6.99997143 I2176_Balkans_BronzeAge 7.16744724 I1979_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Northern_Italy 7.41179465 I2175_Balkans_BronzeAge 7.69315930 Collegno36 8.27704053 scy197_Scythian 8.39610029 Szolad28 8.75462164 Bul6_Balkans_BronzeAge 8.83820117 scy192_Scythian 8.85023164 Bul10_Balkans_BronzeAge 8.99692725 Szolad31 9.01075469 R1283_Medieval_Era_Cancelleria 9.01258010 Collegno23 9.10639336 R1016_Iron_Age_Castel_di_Decima 9.23910169 I4331_Balkans_BronzeAge 9.25401534 R120_Late_Antiquity_S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia 9.40637550 R36_Late_Antiquity_Celio 9.44550687 R33_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
From Jovialis, the most complete set using K12b:
Distance to: Angela 5.04939600 MOK17A:Zegarac_2021 5.96391650 I8475:Olalde_2019 6.06853360 Croatia_LBA:I3313:Mathieson_2018 6.10643922 Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R111:Antoni o_2019 6.11085919 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1287:Antonio_2019 6.16497364 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1285:Antonio_2019 6.36923857 Szolad43:Amorim_2018 6.39419268 ETR010:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 6.66446547 TAQ022:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 6.71269692 Bulgaria_EBA:I2176:Mathieson_2018 6.86863888 Vucedol:I3499:Mathieson_2018 7.09575930 I1979:Olalde_2018 7.26718653 POP001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 7.33042973 Bulgaria_EBA:I2175:Mathieson_2018 7.66150116 MA2197 amgaard_2018
7.69315930 Collegno36:Amorim_2018 7.90459993 MOK31:Zegarac_2021 8.05195628 VET001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 8.13190630 Scythian:scy197:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct) 8.26525257 TAQ006:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 8.33593426 TAQ020:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 8.36580540 Armenoi_Crete:I9123:Lazaridis_2017 8.39610029 Szolad28:Amorim_2018 8.80221563 Hungary_BA:I7041:Olalde_2018 8.83255342 Bulgaria_EBA:Bul6:Mathieson_2018 8.88801440 ETR006:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 8.96155678 TAQ009:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 8.99692725 Szolad31:Amorim_2018 9.01104322 C6-Celio_Late_Antiquity:R36:Antonio_2019 9.01258010 Collegno23:Amorim_2018 9.04024889 VEU001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 9.05317624 Scythian:scy192:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct) 9.10909436 Latini_IA:R1016:Antonio_2019 9.17791915 C7-Mausole_di_Augusto_Late_Antiquity:R33:Antonio_2019 9.20749152 Bulgaria_EBA:Bul10:Mathieson_2018 9.25401534 C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R120:An tonio_2019 9.27407677 ETR013:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 9.28820758 TAQ011:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 9.31211576 Scythian:scy300:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct) 9.35244888 Croatia_EMBA:I4331:Mathieson_2018 9.36452882 VOL001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 9.44751819 I5015:Olalde_2018 9.50057893 CSN013:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 9.58759615 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1283:Antonio_2019 9.59114696 Bulgaria_BA:I2520:Mathieson_2018 9.65696122 Croatia_EMBA:I4332:Mathieson_2018 9.65707513 Beaker_Central_Europe:I2364:Olalde_2018 9.77791900 C7-Crypta_Balbi_Late_Antiquity:R110:Antonio_2019 9.87484177 Protovillanovan_IA:R1:Antonio_2019 9.91709131 ans007:Sánchez-Quinto_2019
Target: Angela
Distance: 0.5327% / 0.53268546 | ADC: 0.25x RC23.7 Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome 19.9 TAQ006 15.8 TAQ022 10.9 MOK17A 10.4 Baden_LCA 7.9 I8475 6.5 I3587 4.9 Latini_IA
Target: Angela
Distance: 0.5327% / 0.53268546 | ADC: 0.25x RC23.7 Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome 19.9 TAQ006 15.8 TAQ022 10.9 MOK17A 10.4 Baden_LCA 7.9 I8475 6.5 I3587 4.9 Latini_IA
J2 L70 is probably Anatolian and/or greek in origin, as the Finocchio paper stated on 2018. If you check on Yfull ''live'' you can see the two basal samples at the moment are from Spain and Albania. It was probably spread to western Europe through classical greeks on the IX century BCE, although its first expansion, specially on the eastern Mediterranean, could have been with the Myceaneans and/or other Aegean/Anatolian people. Maybe L70 was part of Magna Graecia (we will hopefully have further news from the incoming papers), and then part of the big roman expansion all over Europe, as I personally think that is the case of the Viminacium individual.
I never gave it much thought, but it's interesting that I'm closest on Jovialis' 12b to someone from the Maros Culture in the Bronze Age.
EBA necropolis of Mokrin, located near the town of Kikinda in the northern Banat, Serbia. The necropolis was used by a population belonging to the Maros culture (2700–1500 cal BC), which encompasses a set of communities extending through southeastern Hungary, western Romania, and northern Serbia37 (Fig. 1; Supplementary information 1). Radiocarbon dating indicates that the Mokrin necropolis was used for 300 years, from around 2100–1800 cal BC3
Distance to: MOK17A:Zegarac_2021 4.55975877 Italian_Romagna 4.79056364 French_Corsica 4.86831593 Italian_Tuscany 5.84622819 Italian_Marche 6.07696470 Italian_Emilia 6.50433701 Italian_Liguria 6.89936954 Italian_Lazio 8.70247666 Italian_Lombardy 9.95629951 Italian_Piedmont 9.97372548 Italian_Veneto 10.24577474 Albanian 11.18326428 Albanian_Kosovo
^^
Olalde et al 2019 ( Doubtless a Roman from Roman Era Empuries in Catalonia)
Distance to: I8475:Olalde_2019 5.28160960 French_Corsica 5.50402580 Italian_Liguria 6.36328531 Italian_Emilia 6.74143902 Italian_Tuscany 7.01267424 Italian_Lombardy 7.79796127 Italian_Piedmont 8.50914214 Italian_Romagna 9.16421846 Italian_Veneto 9.93606562 Spanish_Canarias 10.10349259 Swiss_Italian 10.76134583 Italian_Marche 10.93044830 Portuguese 11.32834498 Italian_Lazio
the term Illyrii proprii/proprie dicti. was only done by Pliny the Elder in AD times to describe people south of southern Dalmatians ..............no one else used this term
"Illyrii Proprie Dicti" were the Illyrians proper, so called by Pliny (23–79 AD) in his Natural History. They later formed the Docleatae. They were the Taulantii, the Pleraei or Pyraei, the Endirudini, Sasaei, Grabaei, Labeatae.
The Greeks wrote .....Ancient Greek writers used the name "Illyrian" to describe peoples between the Liburnians and Epirus. 4th-century BC Greek writers clearly separated the people along the Adriatic coast from the Illyrians,
Clearly indicating only the Dalmatians as Illyrian.............because Epirus is where the bulk of modern albania and NW greece are today ............the Epirote tribes where 14 in total
Roman Illyricum comprised of all tribes between the Histrians of Istria , Slovenia through the Liburnians of north Croatia , through the Dalmatians of southern Croatia , through all of Montenegro to the Drin river ...............south of this was the Epirotes as per Roman writers
The 4 year long, Great illyrian revolt against the Romans was only by Dalmatian and Pannonian tribes against the Roman Empire
Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155
Sure man whatever you say.
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I am not sure if you understood what I said.
If you want to compare Albanians with Illyrians start with South Illyrian, or Illyrian Proper. Since no sample have come yet from Albania , you may use Log04 to give you a hint, since is closer that the samples from Dalmatia. Albanian take their name from Albanoi tribe so first you should start with them or samples in their proximity.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi
Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 17.23 - Log04_wgs_trim5bp
Top 90 % match vs all users
Closest Modern
1. Kosovar (10.17)
2. Romanian (10.39)
3. Bosnian (11.01)
4. Bulgarian (11.17)
5. Serbian (11.56)
6. North_Italian (12.04)
7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
8. Macedonian (13.03)
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So why you post studies for Caucasian Albania. You believe that is relevant for Apollonia.
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Than I feel sorry for him.
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Yes but Albanians are not the top match.
Here is
Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 11.99 - Log02_wgs
Top 98 % match vs all users
Closest Modern
1. Tuscan (5.516)
2. North_Italian (6.652)
3. Albanian_Tosk (9.258)
4. Kosovar (11.80)
5. Greek_Thessaly (11.97)
6. Italian_Abruzzo (12.44)
7. West_Sicilian (12.77)
8. Greek (12.93)
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No one has any idea which of those two samples is closest to the "Illyrians"; maybe neither of them is...
You realize that, right????
Get back to me when you have a sample from the right period, with the right burial context. Then we'll see who is closest to them. Not, by the way, who is descended from people like him, but who has similar proportions of ancient populations.
You realizing that the samples that you are using to validate your point are geographically closer to Italy than Albania. I will get back to you when samples will came from Albania, but meanwhile stop drawing conclusions that Italian are closer to Illyrians that Albanians. They are closer to the Illyrian Dalmatian Tribe but not to all Illyrians, especially the South Illyrians, namely Albanoi.
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