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Thread: Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    I am not sure if you understood what I said.

    If you want to compare Albanians with Illyrians start with South Illyrian, or Illyrian Proper. Since no sample have come yet from Albania , you may use Log04 to give you a hint, since is closer that the samples from Dalmatia. Albanian take their name from Albanoi tribe so first you should start with them or samples in their proximity.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi

    Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
    1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 17.23 - Log04_wgs_trim5bp
    Top 90 % match vs all users


    Closest Modern

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    6. North_Italian (12.04)
    7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
    8. Macedonian (13.03)



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    That sample comes from Greek Province of Thessally , near the aegean sea
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    So why you post studies for Caucasian Albania. You believe that is relevant for Apollonia.


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    To show you that some people want to fit Albania in the caucasus with Albania in europe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Log02 should give you a better fit. Log02 is closer than Log04 from what I have seen.

    both samples from Thessaly Greece ..............are you claiming that Albanians are Thessalians?

    you do know the only true ancient albanians came from Dardania which is modern Kosovo, which speak Gheg ......................I know the Tosk Albanians hate this and always put down the Ghegs

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    You realizing that the samples that you are using to validate your point are geographically closer to Italy than Albania. I will get back to you when samples will came from Albania, but meanwhile stop drawing conclusions that Italian are closer to Illyrians that Albanians. They are closer to the Illyrian Dalmatian Tribe but not to all Illyrians, especially the South Illyrians, namely Albanoi.



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    You still don't get it. I don't care whether I'm close to the ancient Illyrians or not.

    In the first instance I was pointing out that Northeast Italians, NOT ME, were closer to the samples from the western Balkans than those of any Albanians I had seen posted. So, by implication, if the Albanians had always resided there, then they had changed, and again by implication, perhaps it was the new Slavic ancestry.

    In the second instance, after seeing that you just decided that the sample closest to modern Albanians from any ancient time period anywhere in the general vicinity MUST BE the Illyrians, without any actual scientific proof whatsoever, I tried to explain that this was a completely incorrect way of going about things.

    Surely you see that???

    @Cerc,

    I always thought that was obvious, but given the posts in our threads lately, I thought perhaps it was indeed not obvious to people.

    In the case of the "Illyrians", I think that most probably someone from the mountainous areas closest to the Tyrrhenian Sea is not descended from the Illyrians. What is probably true, however, is that a group of people from somewhere around, perhaps, Hungary, wound up both in the lower Balkans and Italy.

    That isn't to say that some "Illyrians" didn't go to Italy, and some "Romans" didn't go to the Illyrian and other Balkan lands.

    Neither of these scenarios are easy to quantify.

    Now, if you have place X, with people of a certain autosomal make up, and 1000 years later you have people in that place X who have a big chunk of that same autosomal "cluster", then they probably are descendants of the first group, unless you can prove pretty decisively that something else in the interim created that similarity, i.e. total wipe out and then replacement by people with a similar autosomal structure, for example.

    Proclaiming these things without proof doesn't cut it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    To show you that some people want to fit Albania in the caucasus with Albania in europe
    Do not spare any effort on that.


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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    both samples from Thessaly Greece ..............are you claiming that Albanians are Thessalians?

    you do know the only true ancient albanians came from Dardania which is modern Kosovo, which speak Gheg ......................I know the Tosk Albanians hate this and always put down the Ghegs
    You got it.


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    Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You still don't get it. I don't care whether I'm close to the ancient Illyrians or not.

    In the first instance I was pointing out that Northeast Italians, NOT ME, were closer to the samples from the western Balkans than those of any Albanians I had seen posted. So, by implication, if the Albanians had always resided there, then they had changed, and again by implication, perhaps it was the new Slavic ancestry.

    In the second instance, after seeing that you just decided that the sample closest to modern Albanians from any ancient time period anywhere in the general vicinity MUST BE the Illyrians, without any actual scientific proof whatsoever, I tried to explain that this was a completely incorrect way of going about things.

    Surely you see that???

    @Cerc,

    I always thought that was obvious, but given the posts in our threads lately, I thought perhaps it was indeed not obvious to people.

    In the case of the "Illyrians", I think that most probably someone from the mountainous areas closest to the Tyrrhenian Sea is not descended from the Illyrians. What is probably true, however, is that a group of people from somewhere around, perhaps, Hungary, wound up both in the lower Balkans and Italy.

    That isn't to say that some "Illyrians" didn't go to Italy, and some "Romans" didn't go to the Illyrian and other Balkan lands.

    Neither of these scenarios are easy to quantify.

    Now, if you have place X, with people of a certain autosomal make up, and 1000 years later you have people in that place X who have a big chunk of that same autosomal "cluster", then they probably are descendants of the first group, unless you can prove pretty decisively that something else in the interim created that similarity, i.e. total wipe out and then replacement by people with a similar autosomal structure, for example.

    Proclaiming these things without proof doesn't cut it.
    Again your claim that Italian of NE are closer to The Dalmatian Tribe in north Illyria is correct. Can you say the same for the Illyrian Tribe of Albanoi? I would like to remind you that there are no samples from the Illyrian tribes of the South. But Log4 can give you a hint of what might come from Albania. I am not saying that Log04 is Illyrian.

    Please stop repeating the same thing over and over again. I understood you, can you answer me not dogging the question.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    You got it.


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    I always knew it ...............just a confirmation from my Albanian work collegue


    regards




    BTW, the oldest illyrian object found was from Slovenia

    The Vače Situla (Slovene: situla z Vač, also vaška situla) is an ornamented Early Iron Age ritual bronze vessel (situla) found in the second half of the 19th century at the Hallstatt Archaeological Site in Vače in central Slovenia. It counts among the highest-quality such vessels in general and among the most precious archeological artifacts of the country. Dating from the 5th century BC,[1] it is considered to be one of the oldest situla objects of the northern Illyrians found in the Eastern Hallstatt zone.[2] The vessel has three rows of relief that show the ordinary life of the ruling class and also reflect the religious understanding of the world in that time.[3] It is on display in the National Museum of Slovenia.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I wish I read more autosomal facts from Jovialis, Pax Augusta, Salento, etc. instead of theseAlbanians aint nothing and nobodies, Dardanian homeland, BA vessels from Slovenia, and whatnot.

    Attachment 12903

    The plot is clear how close the locals of Viminacium are to Albanians and Mainland Greeks.

    Sure, we got ~10% additional blue eyes from the medieval Slavs, we got it. Lets move on please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I always knew it ...............just a confirmation from my Albanian work collegue


    regards




    BTW, the oldest illyrian object found was from Slovenia

    The Vače Situla (Slovene: situla z Vač, also vaška situla) is an ornamented Early Iron Age ritual bronze vessel (situla) found in the second half of the 19th century at the Hallstatt Archaeological Site in Vače in central Slovenia. It counts among the highest-quality such vessels in general and among the most precious archeological artifacts of the country. Dating from the 5th century BC,[1] it is considered to be one of the oldest situla objects of the northern Illyrians found in the Eastern Hallstatt zone.[2] The vessel has three rows of relief that show the ordinary life of the ruling class and also reflect the religious understanding of the world in that time.[3] It is on display in the National Museum of Slovenia.

    https://www.academia.edu/35896111/Il...erranean_World

    Illyria and Its Place in the Ancient Mediterranean World

    Where there is no illusion there is no
    Illyria.” –
    Oscar Wilde

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    https://www.academia.edu/35896111/Il...erranean_World

    Illyria and Its Place in the Ancient Mediterranean World

    Where there is no illusion there is no
    Illyria.” –
    Oscar Wilde
    Illusive Illyrians, good work all around.


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    Italians are closer to Ancient Balkanians due to East Med admixture in Greeks and Albanians. Perhaps we are focussing too much on the additional steppe admixture in the Balkans today, rather the question is when did the East Med admixture arrive? The Greek from Marathon had plenty. I can understand that because the Athenian Empire was connected to Asia Minor. But how do Albanians get it? Is there a deeper explanation? Where the Dorians East Med?

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Again your claim that Italian of NE are closer to The Dalmatian Tribe in north Illyria is correct.
    That sample is 1600 BC. The Dalmatians of the Iron Age may have been less Steppe-like than him, and more similar to the Balkan populations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Çerç View Post
    That sample is 1600 BC. The Dalmatians of the Iron Age may have been less Steppe-like than him, and more similar to the Balkan populations.
    This can be also true.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Italians are closer to Ancient Balkanians due to East Med admixture in Greeks and Albanians. Perhaps we are focussing too much on the additional steppe admixture in the Balkans today, rather the question is when did the East Med admixture arrive? The Greek from Marathon had plenty. I can understand that because the Athenian Empire was connected to Asia Minor. But how do Albanians get it? Is there a deeper explanation? Where the Dorians East Med?
    Steppe admixture in Balkans requires focus not because of the numbers but because of history, culture and language. On the other side East Med Dorians seems like rainbow land dream to me.


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    The way I see it is in waves... Sardinian like (Barcin/Anatolia N), then East Med addition through some Sopot like movements, and finally steppe and northern influence through HRV MBA IA BG influences that give Log like people. Those I feel are the main ingredients to get modern Albanians and Greeks. The only thing left to clarify is the more Islander/Levant influences that after the Marathon sample can no longer be denied (since afaik they are not purely Anayolia N, but might postdate it, alas from the same direction, I suspect through Helenic Anatolian incorporation into maiand Greece.

    Finally, being molded of the same waves and neighbours for millenia, even if parts of history might be endemic to one or the other pop, Greeks and Albanians are pretty much cousin populations.


    Slavic admixture too, the extent has to be properly quantified.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Again your claim that Italian of NE are closer to The Dalmatian Tribe in north Illyria is correct. Can you say the same for the Illyrian Tribe of Albanoi? I would like to remind you that there are no samples from the Illyrian tribes of the South. But Log4 can give you a hint of what might come from Albania. I am not saying that Log04 is Illyrian.

    Please stop repeating the same thing over and over again. I understood you, can you answer me not dogging the question.


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    You're not making any sense. How can I possibly know what the southern Illyrian tribes were like autosomally?

    How can you, for goodness sakes?

    WE DON'T HAVE ANY ATTESTED SAMPLES FOR ILLYRIANS PERIOD!

    You don't need detailed knowledge of population genetics and history and archaeology to come to that conclusion. You just need a minimum of reasoning ability unclouded by hysterical hyper-nationalism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're not making any sense. How can I possibly know what the southern Illyrian tribes were like autosomally?

    How can you, for goodness sakes?

    WE DON'T HAVE ANY ATTESTED SAMPLES FOR ILLYRIANS PERIOD!

    You don't need detailed knowledge of population genetics and history and archaeology to come to that conclusion. You just need a minimum of reasoning ability unclouded by hysterical hyper-nationalism.
    Exactly I can’t, and so can’t you. You finally got it. I am glad for this outcome.


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    3 members found this post helpful.
    It seems our Albanian members missed all the discussions about the arrival of more CHG/Iranian Neo like Ancestry in Europe.

    The first hint of it is all the way back in the Copper Age. While European farmer populations had only a little, part of the general make-up of the European farmers from admixture in Anatolia, Otzi, who was a metal worker from Copper Age northern Italy, had quite a bit, which Dienekes found in his "Caucasus" percentage. The only place where he went wrong is that he expected him to have a "new" y dna, but he didn't; he was still the ancient farmer G2a.

    However, the autosomal change is clear.

    Now, let's also keep in mind that Old Europe was, if not the first center of innovations in metallurgy, one of the first. I have posted in numerous threads here on the debate as to whether the Near East made the first really important breakthroughs in metallurgy (other than just melting down naturally occurring copper), or if it was the Balkans. You can forget about the steppe people. They borrowed the technology later. (Corded Ware, for example, had barely any copper, no bronze, and what they made was very crude. Beaker people were more adept, but they had more European farmer in them.)

    I don't know if anyone will ever be able to prove it categorically either way through dating of furnaces etc., BUT, it does fit nicely with the arrival of more of that probable movement of CHG/IR farmer like ancestry into the Balkans. It makes sense, does it not? These metal workers could have followed the ancient Neolithic routes into Greece and the Balkans, and it is possible they then also moved into Italy. I have, btw, been saying this exact thing for the last 8 years at least, to the usual chorus of naysayers visiting here from other sites.

    It's amazing how certain things can be predicted by applying logic to the archaeology and pre-history of Europe, and even minimal ancient dna.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're not making any sense. How can I possibly know what the southern Illyrian tribes were like autosomally?

    How can you, for goodness sakes?

    WE DON'T HAVE ANY ATTESTED SAMPLES FOR ILLYRIANS PERIOD!

    You don't need detailed knowledge of population genetics and history and archaeology to come to that conclusion. You just need a minimum of reasoning ability unclouded by hysterical hyper-nationalism.
    Exactly, i don’t know, and I am glad you realized that you don’t know either.

    First you claimed that NE Italians are closer to Illyrians than Albanians, but we don’t know that yet. Given the extensive geographical area covered by Illyrian, their genetic admixture might have been different from north to south.

    I am glad we finally agree even though it took more posts that I initially thought.


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    Great, it seems everyone finally understood blevins point that Albanians need only to be autosmally close to preferably the Roman Imperial period Southern (or Central) Illyrians or Dardanians, with the second preferred option being Late Iron Age Southern Illyrians.

    Whereas a Bronze Age Indo-European found in Dalmatia is of not particular value besides his Y-DNA, considering that he predates the turbulent period after the 13th century BC, as well as probably lacked enough time to have merged fully/intermixed enough with the locals, be them Indo-European or not.

    Once we see how much Steppe and East Med a Late Empire Illyro-Roman has (I say Late Empire to include the Goths who couldve increased the Steppe as well), then we can do the math and deduct how much of that Steppe can be attributed to the Slavs as well as figure out if the East Med is from the Roman period, resettled Armenians during the Byzantine times, or Ottoman period admixture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Exactly, i don’t know, and I am glad you realized that you don’t know either.

    First you claimed that NE Italians are closer to Illyrians than Albanians, but we don’t know that yet. Given the extensive geographical area covered by Illyrian, their genetic admixture might have been different from north to south.

    I am glad we finally agree even though it took more posts that I initially thought.


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    You didn't say no one could know which of those two Log samples were closest to the Illyrians, if either of them are... You picked a sample to be the Illyrians because they plot closest to modern Albanians.

    You always start out trying to prove how close Albanians are to Illyrians no matter how you have to twist the actual data to show it, and anyone with half a brain knows the game you're always playing.

    Not only is it not scientific or logical, it's dishonest.

    You're as bad as Laberia, whom I'm sure is here under some false name, but he's learned not to start ranting b.s.

    I suggest you follow suit.

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    Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You didn't say no one could know which of those two Log samples were closest to the Illyrians, if either of them are... You picked a sample to be the Illyrians because they plot closest to modern Albanians.
    I never said Log samples were Illyrians, you inferred that. I choose them because of their proximity to Albania, and because there is no other choice available and stated that in my posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You always start out trying to prove how close Albanians are to Illyrians no matter how you have to twist the actual data to show it, and anyone with half a brain knows the game you're always playing.
    Give an example from my posts in the past including this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Not only is it not scientific or logical, it's dishonest.
    You claimed that NE Italians are closer to Illyrians than Albanians. I never claimed that for Albanians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    You're as bad as Laberia, whom I'm sure is here under some false name, but he's learned not to start ranting b.s.
    I have no comment for this one. This is personal insult. I leave this to the moderators for review.


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    Is it still a question that Albanians have continuity from Illyrians?

    Ima ignore all the other stuff in the discussion that I find inconsequential. But like, have we made no progress at all the last 10 years. Might want to review genetic, historic, archeological and linguistic evidence and conjectures if still in doubt.

    In a week or two the final nail in the coffin for nagging haters is coming. tik tok... tik tok...

    Also, since aparently I might have forgot CHG/Iran Neo... BGR IA and HRV MBA and Mokrin had high Steppe / Yamnaya components. Yamnaya is up to 50% CHG. I did not forget it, its implicit in my last post. Also Sardinian BA had 10% so its implicit there as well.

    People need to be aware of their double standards here. Mods included. The sword cuts both ways, yet some are using their arguments to only target theories they don't like ignoring the implications.

    example

    X pop not necesarily continuous from Y pop, despite calculator results, just coincidence they have similar compositions confusing calculator.

    Z pop is continuous with Y pop, despite above statement applying just the same.

    X pop is closest to Q ancient sample, hence closer to Q samples culture then Z pop.

    Z pop not necesarily descendant from Q ancient culture, despite having close autosomal and same Y...

    This whole arguments are clownish af.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Is it still a question that Albanians have continuity from Illyrians?

    If you want to claim the Dardanians are from illyrian stock ............which seems 100% wrong for myself .

    The only common association of the ancient Dardanians with other tribes is with the Paeonians ,.....their direct southern neighbour

    but as usual....albanians hate being known as Dardanians as it makes them an inland tribe and not near the sea ................oh yea, albanian have no Sea/coastal words , but are all borrowed

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