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Thread: Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

  1. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    If you want to claim the Dardanians are from illyrian stock ............which seems 100% wrong for myself .

    The only common association of the ancient Dardanians with other tribes is with the Paeonians ,.....their direct southern neighbour

    but as usual....albanians hate being known as Dardanians as it makes them an inland tribe and not near the sea ................oh yea, albanian have no Sea/coastal words , but are all borrowed
    You know it all it seems.


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    Is it expected that the autosomal files will be published within this month?

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    The absence of navigational and fishing terminology may not be enough of an evidence to disprove the Illyrian origin of the Albanian language.

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    Please re-read my post on CHG/Iran Neo carefully.

    I am emphatically NOT talking about the CHG in steppe people. How could I be for God's sake? Was Oetzi steppe admixed???

    I am talking about ADDITIONAL CHG/Iran Neo coming into Europe from Anatolia in the late Copper/Early Bronze Age. You know, the stuff that went into Crete and the Mycenaeans????

    Has anybody posting currently paid any attention to the papers?

    I don't know how much "Illyrian" ancestry is in Albanian, nor do I care, as I've said before. Why would I?

    The point is that conclusions have been repeatedly drawn for years and are drawn over and over again in this and other current threads without a scintilla of actual evidence, and anyone who dares to point that out gets branded an Albanian hater.

    Do you know how many threads on this site you've ruined? Don't you notice how after a while no one else wants to respond?

    Well, I'm not easily intimidated.

    CUT IT OUT.

    You want to post on this thread, then discuss the DATA. No more wild speculation.

    Any more of it and I'm just going to go back an erase whole swathes of posts. Have I made myself clear?


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    Post deleted by moderator.
    Last edited by Angela; 13-09-21 at 03:44.

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    If anyone wants to see what the ancient balkans looked like genetically, they should go to modern Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    If anyone wants to see what the ancient balkans looked like genetically, they should go to modern Italy.
    This is a map of Bulgaria IA. Only Tuscans appear closer it compared to Albanians. Is the map plotting wrong?
    B27FB202-D055-45DF-BE15-0A2D9A7FC488.jpg


    Below are some Albanian members.
    1088FE84-532D-4B48-AE27-D834E0D8D9EE.jpg

    Again here, Albanians appear much closer than both Republic and Imperial Romans.
    625012EF-8EDB-4831-8400-257310714ADC.jpg


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    No in the real pca from the study balkans IA from Bulgaria is west of Sicily. Eurogenes is crap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    No in the real pca from the study balkans IA from Bulgaria is west of Sicily. Eurogenes is crap.
    For the new Balkan IA samples from this study one end clusters over south Italy/Sicily and a bit west, going as far north as Tuscany. Ergo, they resemble Tuscany to South Italy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    For the new Balkan IA samples from this study one end clusters over south Italy/Sicily and a bit west, going as far north as Tuscany. Ergo, they resemble Tuscany to South Italy.
    Can you post some pictures please? Im curious to see the differences and to filter out the unreliable calculators as well as charts.

    So far from the chart it seems that the locals of Viminacium (probably a Thraco-Illyrian mix) are in between Croatia BA and Bulgaria BA, but slightly shifted North, whereas Albanians are slightly more North, with the Northernmost IA locals almost overlapping with the Southernmost Albanian samples used here.

    By the way, what does the Slovenian IA represent? It seems to plot very near modern Serbs. Was it some Illyro-Celt sample?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    For the new Balkan IA samples from this study one end clusters over south Italy/Sicily and a bit west, going as far north as Tuscany. Ergo, they resemble Tuscany to South Italy.

    do you have any ancient bosnian samples in your new balkan IA samples ?
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    What is the justification of this papers claims that Albanians are 25% Slavic? This obviously does not reflect any sort of ydna studies or statistics (such as gjenetika), so I'm wondering if it's maternal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    do you have any ancient bosnian samples in your new balkan IA samples ?
    Its page 18 of this topic, didnt you know the samples are collected from settlements located in modern Serbia?

    No wonder you keep asking about Bosnia and Montenegro, as well as mentioning Slovenian vessels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fustan View Post
    What is the justification of this papers claims that Albanians are 25% Slavic? This obviously does not reflect any sort of ydna studies or statistics (such as gjenetika), so I'm wondering if it's maternal?
    25? This paper is claiming more like 40%. According to them Albanians are as Slavic as the 10th century Kuline samples. But at the same time they post charts where Albanians plot very near the local Balkans samples, unlike the Kuline samples which are rather shifted to the left towards Germanics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    For the new Balkan IA samples from this study one end clusters over south Italy/Sicily and a bit west, going as far north as Tuscany. Ergo, they resemble Tuscany to South Italy.
    Lazio Italians are the closests to the Balkan_IA sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    25? This paper is claiming more like 40%. According to them Albanians are as Slavic as the 10th century Kuline samples. But at the same time they post charts where Albanians plot very near the local Balkans samples, unlike the Kuline samples which are rather shifted to the left towards Germanics.
    I still don't get it. Basic knowledge of Balkan Y-DNA would tell you that it's impossible for Albanians to be that Slavic, unless they believe EV13 or R1b-L23&J-L283. I only recently came back reading anthropology stuff and it seems like there's been a shift on focusing on autosomal dna over ydna, which is regrettable imo because the former is based on an insane amount of speculation in comparison to the latter. Not saying autosomal is useless but it's undeniably extremely speculative

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    No in the real pca from the study balkans IA from Bulgaria is west of Sicily. Eurogenes is crap.
    paraphrasing "Do not rely on Eurogenes PCA's cause they are crap"... "Rely on research papers." Meanwhile the very research paper this thread is based on relies on Eurogenes methods for one of their PCAs...

    We ran three different PCAs:
    […]
    3. One for which PCs were computed using 407 present-day North-Europeans genotyped on the HO array (Figure S9). We designed this PCA to reveal more recent drift that could separate 3rd-6th centuries CE individuals from the 10th century CE individuals. These two groups of individuals yielded a similar position in the Western-Eurasian PCA (Figure1; Figure S7) but had significantly different ancestral origins when modelling using qpWave/qpAdm (Supplementary Section 11 & Supplementary Section 12). The design of this PCA was inspired by the Eurogenes blog:
    (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/...-warriors.html).

    Figure S9. North European PCA with ancient samples projected.
    With all the reservation I hold towards some Eurogenes theories.
    I find this whole thing beyond amusing.







    PCAs curated by me.
    I really do not want to hear South Italians are the real ancient Greeks and North Italians the real Ancient Illyrians anymore. Then you justify such things using the same calculators, which guys criticize when they show Albanians as close to ancient samples from Illyria.

    Reminds me of Nordicists or Afrocentrist talking points, just repurposed for the glorious Italians. With all love and respect to our Italian cousins, except the closeted racist ones.

    PS: Edit my post and find this on my sig.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    paraphrasing "Do not rely on Eurogenes PCA's cause they are crap"... "Rely on research papers." Meanwhile the very research paper this thread is based on relies on Eurogenes methods for one of their PCAs...
    With all the reservation I hold towards some Eurogenes theories.
    I find this whole thing beyond amusing.




    PCAs curated by me.
    I really do not want to hear South Italians are the real ancient Greeks and North Italians the real Ancient Illyrians anymore. Then you justify such things using the same calculators, which guys criticize when they show Albanians as close to ancient samples from Illyria.
    Reminds me of Nordicists or Afrocentrist talking points, just repurposed for the glorious Italians. With all love and respect to our Italian cousins, except the closeted racist ones.
    PS: Edit my post and find this on my sig.
    It is projected differently, which is evident in the PCAs. Look at the position of Bulgaria IA in the PCA of the study. It is in a different location from the PCA.

    Balkans IA cluster is on the Sicily cluster and stretches to Tuscany in the Reich PCA. This is a fact, it is what it is. So I don't know why you are accusing me of making unfounded statements for nefarious purposes.

    Also are you comparing me to a nordicist or afrocentric? Because that is a serious insult.

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    Are you accusing me of being a closeted racist for pointing out what an academic PCA is showing?

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    … instead of colored squares and circles, as PCA design you can use the faces of the Eurocup players.

    … they say: inspired by the PCA “design” of …, they do not say that they used the Eurog… calculators.

    … Unless I missed that part :)
    Last edited by Salento; 13-09-21 at 07:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Can you post some pictures please? I�m curious to see the differences and to filter out the unreliable calculators as well as charts.

    So far from the chart it seems that the locals of Viminacium (probably a Thraco-Illyrian mix) are in between Croatia BA and Bulgaria BA, but slightly shifted North, whereas Albanians are slightly more North, with the Northernmost IA locals almost overlapping with the Southernmost Albanian samples used here.

    By the way, what does the Slovenian IA represent? It seems to plot very near modern Serbs. Was it some Illyro-Celt sample?
    The Reich PCA shows this. Compare it to other modern PCAs from them, and you will see what I am saying is true.

    Also not saying this towards you, but people should not feel insulted. Who cares, obviously the people who live there today are the direct descendants of these people, with some degree of Slavic admixture. For Albanians it's only around 20% I believe. I already figured they would be descended from similar people to Italians, based on their modeling from Raveane et al 2018. It is similar to Italians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Lazio Italians are the closests to the Balkan_IA sample.
    I think for Dodecad K12b, the updated chart shows Marche with the closest affinity to the Bulgaria sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The Reich PCA shows this. Compare it to other modern PCAs from them, and you will see what I am saying is true.
    Also not saying this towards you, but people should not feel insulted. Who cares, obviously the people who live there today are the direct descendants of these people, with some degree of Slavic admixture. For Albanians it's only around 20% I believe. I already figured they would be descended from similar people to Italians, based on their modeling from Raveane et al 2018. It is similar to Italians.
    In fact the continuity is pretty strong, because of supermajority of it remains.

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    @Jov I put a line break between the part of the post where I quoted you, and the second part. It is hard to see because of the attached images but it is there. So no, unless you do feel accused of racism, you are not.

    Yeah, we have been over this discussion together, 3d PCA may look wierd, different on instance, when projected on 2D plane. But we can not pick and choose our projection.

    I have said this before and I will say this again. PCAs are what they are we can pick the angle and make two points overlap, which on a Z plane might be miles apart. As you have shared 3d PCA tools you know this.

    Why I have mentioned even before... Forget PCAs, focus on Fstats. That is why it was created anyways. Until we have a better tool /tools this is what we have.

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    I am not picking and choosing, I am talking about the PCA the study provides.

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