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Thread: Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I am not picking and choosing, I am talking about the PCA the study provides.
    This one?



    Or did you pick something else?
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I think a more correct thing to say is the ancestors of Albanians and many other Balkanites existed on the southern european mediterranean continuum and were slightly augmented by north eastern European ancestry. Clear and simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    This one?



    Or did you pick something else?
    Yes this is one of them which show the extent of Balkans IA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think a more correct thing to say is the ancestors of Albanians and Balkanites existed on the southern european mediterranean continuum and were slightly augmented by north eastern European ancestry. Clear and simple.


    Clear and concise

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Yes this is one of them which show the extent of Balkans IA.
    I am sure you got my point Jov. You are a smart person. And very familiar with the tools I was mentioning earlier, likely more then me.




    Alas, I have to say, we need to be aware of the information asymmetry in this anthropology, anthrogenetics field. Not all the cards are revealed to everyone.
    Some might be playing Poker with their cards discovered, and raising after river, not knowing what others could... Again this is not directed @Jov. Just an observation I have come to being active on anthrofora last couple of years.

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    Also, I saw some people mention Log4 and Log2. They too are on the same Mediterranean continuum. The extent of it demonstrated in the Daunian paper was from Roman Republic IA to Minoans

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Also, I saw some people mention Log4 and Log2. They too are on the same Mediterranean continuum. The extent of it demonstrated in the Daunian paper was from Roman Republic IA to Minoans
    Totally agree. I would go as far to say that the mixture that gave us the Log's, is probably responsible for the re-/emergence of C6.
    Meaning a more south east pop mixing with a more north west pop, giving us profiles we today can see from Italy, Balkans to Greece. (oversimplification ofc, given more admixture events happened before and after, but in a sense this was an important point in history)

    But on this one I have to scratch my head a bit more, before being too sure, have not thought of all the details. Just a hunch/intuition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    The Reich PCA shows this. Compare it to other modern PCAs from them, and you will see what I am saying is true.

    Also not saying this towards you, but people should not feel insulted. Who cares, obviously the people who live there today are the direct descendants of these people, with some degree of Slavic admixture. For Albanians it's only around 20% I believe. I already figured they would be descended from similar people to Italians, based on their modeling from Raveane et al 2018. It is similar to Italians.
    Ok, thanks, Ill check them.

    I dont feel offended at all. I personally know a guy that gets 22% Balkan on Ancestry while I get 100% Southern European and the Eastern regions of Albania have considerable amounts of Slavic Y-DNA, an input which believe it or not is visible in their appearance as well. So it all varies from person to person, as well as region to region.

    If they use people from the Western mountainous areas the results will be substantially different with less Slavic and less East Med. Unfortunately the majority of the people tested in Albania are from the more mixed urban areas and dont even represent the majority.

    Anyway, I speculate that part of that Slavic input is also from Goths and Dacians who were settled South of the Danube during the Roman Empire.

    What are your thoughts on the location in the PCA of those Kuline samples? Why are they not plotting towards the Russian Late Sarmatian but have a rather Western and Northern European shift? Could it be due to the Goths and Celts living in Northern Balkans at the time?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Also, I saw some people mention Log4 and Log2. They too are on the same Mediterranean continuum. The extent of it demonstrated in the Daunian paper was from Roman Republic IA to Minoans
    No one has denied that, i specified that Albanians as part of this continuum can be closer to the South Illyrians compared to NE Italians using Log4 and Log2 as hints. Is this such a wild speculation? Should I CUT IT OUT for this reason?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    I think a more correct thing to say is the ancestors of Albanians and many other Balkanites existed on the southern european mediterranean continuum and were slightly augmented by north eastern European ancestry. Clear and simple.
    Finally, something on which we can all agree.

    I also wouldn't be surprised if the amount of Slavic input varied within Albania, with more isolated areas having less of it.

    As for the racist taunt, it's probably directed at me, which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Meanwhile, on calculators with no northern Italian or Tuscan samples, my closest match is usually Albanians, followed by Bulgarians.

    We're all Southern European, with variations, of course. How on earth could anyone in their right senses be "racist" about some minor differences?

    Well, how could anyone be racist at all, but that's another topic.


    Non si fa il proprio dovere perchè qualcuno ci dica grazie, lo si fa per principio, per se stessi, per la propria dignità. Oriana Fallaci

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    No one has denied that, i specified that Albanians as part of this continuum can be closer to the South Illyrians compared to NE Italians using Log4 and Log2 as hints. Is this such a wild speculation? Should I CUT IT OUT for this reason?


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    Im with you in this one. I believe the Slavic input in Albanians is overestimated. Who do they use as an Albanian proxy, people from Korca?

    Hopefully well get more samples around Albania and we should calculate our own Slavic input considering that the majority of Albanians lived in remote areas and married within the region, as was the case in Italy.

    By the way, did you receive infractions too? I got my first 2 for God knows what insult.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    bronze age aegean
    remains in G25 ( davidski)

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867421003706



    Distance to: Helladic_MBA:Log02
    0.02523331 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02642431 Italian_Tuscany
    0.02680568 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02711457 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02791138 Italian_Marche
    0.02845305 Italian_Liguria
    0.02943631 Albanian
    0.03011735 French_Corsica
    0.03103996 Italian_Umbria
    0.03223088 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03232640 Italian_Bergamo
    0.03374879 Italian_Lazio
    0.03421376 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03432588 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03546127 Swiss_Italian
    0.03594062 Italian_Veneto
    0.03611853 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03699253 Italian_Molise
    0.03787082 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03938887 Italian_Apulia
    0.03939264 Rumelia_East
    0.03941018 Macedonian:Central
    0.04241476 Greek_Izmir
    0.04333878 Greek_Laconia
    0.04359595 Italian_Northeast


    Distance to: Helladic_MBA:Log04
    0.03338522 Macedonian:Pelagonia1
    0.03533605 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03578505 Macedonian:East2
    0.03745346 Gagauz
    0.03778287 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03797783 Italian_Northeast
    0.03881694 Albanian
    0.03883212 Italian_Piedmont
    0.03909755 Bulgarian
    0.03948434 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03986721 Romanian
    0.03991323 Macedonian:Central
    0.04069586 Swiss_Italian
    0.04078406 Italian_Veneto
    0.04141950 Rumelia_East
    0.04155838 Italian_Liguria
    0.04218237 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.04228890 Italian_Lombardy
    0.04322381 Italian_Bergamo
    0.04355271 Italian_Tuscany
    0.04426418 Macedonian:Northwest
    0.04443579 Macedonian:Southeast
    0.04545280 French_Provence
    0.04654212 Montenegrin
    0.04671440 Serbian

    Distance to: Helladic_EBA:Mik15
    0.07595865 Sardinian
    0.08271601 Italian_Calabria
    0.08298441 Italian_Jew
    0.08382109 Italian_Campania
    0.08448195 Sicilian_East
    0.08480988 Italian_Apulia
    0.08615882 Italian_Basilicata
    0.08638623 Romaniote_Jew
    0.08725117 Sephardic_Jew
    0.08735623 Maltese
    0.08789993 Italian_Lazio
    0.08808007 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.08892301 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.08937307 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.09007834 Greek_Kos
    0.09016055 Sicilian_West
    0.09040410 Cypriot_B
    0.09072775 Italian_Molise
    0.09122491 French_Corsica
    0.09179614 Greek_Laconia
    0.09226700 Greek_Crete
    0.09300389 Italian_Umbria
    0.09325521 Tunisian_Jew
    0.09328802 Italian_Marche
    0.09437571 Moroccan_Jew

    Distance to: Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
    0.05204134 Greek_Kos
    0.05385652 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05480986 Cypriot_B
    0.05680599 Italian_Calabria
    0.05856668 Italian_Campania
    0.05971432 Romaniote_Jew
    0.06059452 Italian_Jew
    0.06078801 Italian_Basilicata
    0.06180311 Greek_Crete
    0.06216075 Italian_Apulia
    0.06230512 Cypriot
    0.06317933 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.06476211 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.06480381 Sephardic_Jew
    0.06506609 Sicilian_East
    0.06632712 Greek_Izmir
    0.06704354 Maltese
    0.06706089 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.06824511 Italian_Molise
    0.06931194 Greek_Laconia
    0.07018232 Italian_Lazio
    0.07288819 Italian_Umbria
    0.07298538 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.07331913 Greek_Cappadocia
    0.07365125 Ashkenazi_Poland

    Distance to: Minoan_EBA:Pta08
    0.07794846 Italian_Jew
    0.07888632 Romaniote_Jew
    0.07966648 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.08001202 Cypriot_B
    0.08029646 Italian_Calabria
    0.08085760 Sicilian_East
    0.08124932 Italian_Campania
    0.08180170 Sephardic_Jew
    0.08291480 Italian_Apulia
    0.08321596 Greek_Kos
    0.08375053 Cypriot
    0.08429738 Italian_Basilicata
    0.08538057 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.08657638 Greek_Crete
    0.08690987 Maltese
    0.08819190 Tunisian_Jew
    0.08870051 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.08913941 Italian_Lazio
    0.08930199 Sicilian_West
    0.08979417 Italian_Molise
    0.08995290 Sardinian
    0.09259749 Greek_Izmir
    0.09262980 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.09272088 Greek_Laconia
    0.09292286 Libyan_Jew
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    There they go again. Do you see? Some of our Albanian members don't understand what I'm saying, so they insult me, and then are surprised when they get an infraction.

    KEEP IT CIVIL when you disagree. Maybe you don't really understand what the other person is saying, or maybe the cause of the disagreement is that you are saying as a given what is impossible to know, or maybe you are guilty of cherry picking data to find the one that best supports your initial preference.

    Don't fly off the handle and insult the other person and imagine all sorts of nefarious motives. Maybe you're used to that in dealing with people from the Balkans, but I have no ulterior motives here, harbor no animosity toward the Albanians as a people.

    I specifically said that that if you find a certain autosomal signature in an area, and thousands of years later you find the same autosomal signature, then there is descent. The question is, what are the differences?

    Do you need it carved in stone?

    I also specifically said that when two groups are similar, it doesn't necessarily mean that one descends from the other. They may just share similar ancestry, i.e. northern Italians and Illyrians. Instead of immediately jumping to the wrong conclusions, try to absorb what has been written and what it means. Plus, there's the fact that north eastern Italians may have been more "Med" like before they got a dose of Langobard. That's where that influence is strongest, although still a minor component.

    For the record, Dushman, I gave you only one infraction, and it was completely deserved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    bronze age aegean
    remains in G25 ( davidski)
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867421003706
    Distance to: Helladic_MBA:Log02
    0.02523331 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02642431 Italian_Tuscany
    0.02680568 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02711457 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02791138 Italian_Marche
    0.02845305 Italian_Liguria
    0.02943631 Albanian
    0.03011735 French_Corsica
    0.03103996 Italian_Umbria
    0.03223088 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03232640 Italian_Bergamo
    0.03374879 Italian_Lazio
    0.03421376 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03432588 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03546127 Swiss_Italian
    0.03594062 Italian_Veneto
    0.03611853 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03699253 Italian_Molise
    0.03787082 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03938887 Italian_Apulia
    0.03939264 Rumelia_East
    0.03941018 Macedonian:Central
    0.04241476 Greek_Izmir
    0.04333878 Greek_Laconia
    0.04359595 Italian_Northeast
    Distance to: Helladic_MBA:Log04
    0.03338522 Macedonian:Pelagonia1
    0.03533605 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03578505 Macedonian:East2
    0.03745346 Gagauz
    0.03778287 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03797783 Italian_Northeast
    0.03881694 Albanian
    0.03883212 Italian_Piedmont
    0.03909755 Bulgarian
    0.03948434 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03986721 Romanian
    0.03991323 Macedonian:Central
    0.04069586 Swiss_Italian
    0.04078406 Italian_Veneto
    0.04141950 Rumelia_East
    0.04155838 Italian_Liguria
    0.04218237 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.04228890 Italian_Lombardy
    0.04322381 Italian_Bergamo
    0.04355271 Italian_Tuscany
    0.04426418 Macedonian:Northwest
    0.04443579 Macedonian:Southeast
    0.04545280 French_Provence
    0.04654212 Montenegrin
    0.04671440 Serbian
    Distance to: Helladic_EBA:Mik15
    0.07595865 Sardinian
    0.08271601 Italian_Calabria
    0.08298441 Italian_Jew
    0.08382109 Italian_Campania
    0.08448195 Sicilian_East
    0.08480988 Italian_Apulia
    0.08615882 Italian_Basilicata
    0.08638623 Romaniote_Jew
    0.08725117 Sephardic_Jew
    0.08735623 Maltese
    0.08789993 Italian_Lazio
    0.08808007 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.08892301 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.08937307 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.09007834 Greek_Kos
    0.09016055 Sicilian_West
    0.09040410 Cypriot_B
    0.09072775 Italian_Molise
    0.09122491 French_Corsica
    0.09179614 Greek_Laconia
    0.09226700 Greek_Crete
    0.09300389 Italian_Umbria
    0.09325521 Tunisian_Jew
    0.09328802 Italian_Marche
    0.09437571 Moroccan_Jew
    Distance to: Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
    0.05204134 Greek_Kos
    0.05385652 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05480986 Cypriot_B
    0.05680599 Italian_Calabria
    0.05856668 Italian_Campania
    0.05971432 Romaniote_Jew
    0.06059452 Italian_Jew
    0.06078801 Italian_Basilicata
    0.06180311 Greek_Crete
    0.06216075 Italian_Apulia
    0.06230512 Cypriot
    0.06317933 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.06476211 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.06480381 Sephardic_Jew
    0.06506609 Sicilian_East
    0.06632712 Greek_Izmir
    0.06704354 Maltese
    0.06706089 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.06824511 Italian_Molise
    0.06931194 Greek_Laconia
    0.07018232 Italian_Lazio
    0.07288819 Italian_Umbria
    0.07298538 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.07331913 Greek_Cappadocia
    0.07365125 Ashkenazi_Poland
    Distance to: Minoan_EBA:Pta08
    0.07794846 Italian_Jew
    0.07888632 Romaniote_Jew
    0.07966648 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.08001202 Cypriot_B
    0.08029646 Italian_Calabria
    0.08085760 Sicilian_East
    0.08124932 Italian_Campania
    0.08180170 Sephardic_Jew
    0.08291480 Italian_Apulia
    0.08321596 Greek_Kos
    0.08375053 Cypriot
    0.08429738 Italian_Basilicata
    0.08538057 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.08657638 Greek_Crete
    0.08690987 Maltese
    0.08819190 Tunisian_Jew
    0.08870051 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.08913941 Italian_Lazio
    0.08930199 Sicilian_West
    0.08979417 Italian_Molise
    0.08995290 Sardinian
    0.09259749 Greek_Izmir
    0.09262980 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.09272088 Greek_Laconia
    0.09292286 Libyan_Jew
    What is clear from the list is the division between the Early Bronze Age and the Middle Bronze Age after the arrival of the steppe peoples, which was emphasized in the paper.

    Dodecad K12b already told me that Log 2 is really close to Tuscans, which is why it's my closest match on Jovialis' complete set of samples.

    There is Calabria again, always near the top in terms of similarity to Early Bronze Age and Sardinians. Years and years ago Dienekes pointed out that Calabrians were second only to Sardinians in their similarity to pre-northern invasion peoples. My husband will be very pleased, and he'll start teasing me about being part German again. :)

    A word of caution before everyone goes off impulsively. This doesn't mean that Thessalians, for example, or Tuscans, are unchanged since the Early Bronze Age.

    Nice to see he finally acknowledges that the "Corsican" sample to which I always have a high similarity is French admixed. Core Corsicans are different, although they show Tuscan influence, as the Corsican paper pointed out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    There they go again. Do you see? Some of our Albanian members don't understand what I'm saying, so they insult me, and then are surprised when they get an infraction.

    KEEP IT CIVIL when you disagree. Maybe you don't really understand what the other person is saying, or maybe the cause of the disagreement is that you are saying as a given what is impossible to know, or maybe you are guilty of cherry picking data to find the one that best supports your initial preference.

    Don't fly off the handle and insult the other person and imagine all sorts of nefarious motives. Maybe you're used to that in dealing with people from the Balkans, but I have no ulterior motives here, harbor no animosity toward the Albanians as a people.

    I specifically said that that if you find a certain autosomal signature in an area, and thousands of years later you find the same autosomal signature, then there is descent. The question is, what are the differences?

    Do you need it carved in stone?

    I also specifically said that when two groups are similar, it doesn't necessarily mean that one descends from the other. They may just share similar ancestry, i.e. northern Italians and Illyrians. Instead of immediately jumping to the wrong conclusions, try to absorb what has been written and what it means. Plus, there's the fact that north eastern Italians may have been more "Med" like before they got a dose of Langobard. That's where that influence is strongest, although still a minor component.

    For the record, Dushman, I gave you only one infraction, and it was completely deserved.
    On the contrary, its you who doesnt understand what were saying.

    1) I said that Arvanites settled in the Greek islands, thus mainland Greeks must have done the same. Got attacked by you immediately, asked for genetic evidence, you people. Luckily a Greek member confirmed.

    2) We proved that the model which makes Albanians 40% Slavic seems weird, and after I requested some members to test Italians and French, they also came out as 35-50% Slavic. Got attacked again by you with unnecessary lectures and using CAPITAL LETTERS as if youre speaking to some retarded person.

    3) Blevins indicated the similarities with Log2 and Log4, you accused him of calling them Illyrian, he clearly said NO, Im not calling them Illyrian, Thessaly is just very close to Albania geographically. Lots of insults from your side simply because you didnt understand and on top of that you insist.

    4) Ironically, now I got a 2 points infractions for telling blevins not to disagree with you. And apparently I deserve it.

    Talk about fairness and being motivated to ask questions or share your opinion. Sounds like censorship in communist Albania. Im done disagreeing with you. You are right, you win. Please dont quote me anymore, Id like to continue the discussions with other members. Feel free to ban me for saying this, Ill continue the discussions somewhere else.

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    Sorry, wrong thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    What is clear from the list is the division between the Early Bronze Age and the Middle Bronze Age after the arrival of the steppe peoples, which was emphasized in the paper.

    Dodecad K12b already told me that Log 2 is really close to Tuscans, which is why it's my closest match on Jovialis' complete set of samples.

    There is Calabria again, always near the top in terms of similarity to Early Bronze Age and Sardinians. Years and years ago Dienekes pointed out that Calabrians were second only to Sardinians in their similarity to pre-northern invasion peoples. My husband will be very pleased, and he'll start teasing me about being part German again. :)

    A word of caution before everyone goes off impulsively. This doesn't mean that Thessalians, for example, or Tuscans, are unchanged since the Early Bronze Age.

    Nice to see he finally acknowledges that the "Corsican" sample to which I always have a high similarity is French admixed. Core Corsicans are different, although they show Tuscan influence, as the Corsican paper pointed out.
    Indeed, Among Italians, I'd say they're closest to the "Minoan-side" the the Pan-Mediterranean continuum, thus having the least "northern" influence brought in by groups like Latins and Etruscans at the other side of the continuum, who had a minority of Steppe influence.

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    I think inevitably, we'll find out that the Dardanian genepool was probably a primary Illyrian core with a considerable amount of Thracian admixture the most east you go, now whether this helps Albanians find their origin. It seemingly helps us understand what we knew already, I can only guess that somewhere down the line, we'll eventually figure it out. The question that does arise, is whether Albanians descend from a western front, near the coast where heavily latinization occured, and retracted to the east, somewhere in dardania where latinization was not as impactful, I'm just speculating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Indeed, Among Italians, I'd say they're closest to the "Minoan-side" the the Pan-Mediterranean continuum, thus having the least "northern" influence brought in by groups like Latins and Etruscans at the other side of the continuum, who had a minority of Steppe influence.
    Sarno et al. 2021, and Aneli et al. 2021 confirm that the pan-Mediterranean continuum is indeed represented by the population admixtures I present below:




    Graphic by me (MTA is not a very reliable source, but here is a good use of their map nonetheless):




    To me, it is likely that the father of ORD001 was similar to perhaps one of these Balkan_IA people.

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    Also, another thing I wanted to bring up is the interprations of the Jireček line, in fact Skok places it lower where it sits closer in modern day Albania, somewhere near Via Egnatia..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Albanians were Southern Italian-like until they received about 20% Slavic admixture it seems, to me.
    The “speculation” was for south Illyrians, could they also be south Italian like and more close to Albanians?


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    Maybe we are some sort of Illyro-Panoni-Thracian complex, that can be the situation, linguistically I don't know how well it fits, but it does certainly make me think.

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    20-25% Slavic admixture makes the most sense .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Malisori2 View Post
    20-25% Slavic admixture makes the most sense .
    Yes but only in SE Albania


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Indeed, Among Italians, I'd say they're closest to the "Minoan-side" the the Pan-Mediterranean continuum, thus having the least "northern" influence brought in by groups like Latins and Etruscans at the other side of the continuum, who had a minority of Steppe influence.
    With the addition of the original "Italics", yes, completely agree.

    Here's a relief map of Calabria. Take a look especially at the very "toe" of the boot. That's where the last Greek speakers in Calabria reside.


    Relief map of Italy:


    Explains a lot about all the population isolates in Italy, and perhaps, if there was a "resurgence" of pre-Empire genes, as there was a "resurgence" of European Hunter-Gatherer genes after the arrival of the European farmers, and a "resurgence" of Neolithic genes after the arrival of the steppe people, it's because there were a lot of places to hide out or at least keep your autosomal signature intact. Of course, eventually most people moved out of those mountains, even if, in the case of my father's family, not until the 1920s.

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