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Thread: Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

  1. #476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Sarno et al. 2021, and Aneli et al. 2021 confirm that the pan-Mediterranean continuum is indeed represented by the population admixtures I present below:




    Graphic by me (MTA is not a very reliable source, but here is a good use of their map nonetheless):




    To me, it is likely that the father of ORD001 was similar to perhaps one of these Balkan_IA people.
    Are you supporting the Anatolian route for Mycenaean or am I wrong?


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    [QUOTE=blevins13;630942]Yes but only in SE Albania
    And in other regions in Albania? How about isolated tribal regions...

  3. #478
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    Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    bronze age aegean
    remains in G25 ( davidski)

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867421003706



    Distance to:Helladic_MBA:Log02
    0.02523331Greek_Thessaly
    0.02642431Italian_Tuscany
    0.02680568Italian_Piedmont
    0.02711457Italian_Lombardy
    0.02791138Italian_Marche
    0.02845305Italian_Liguria
    0.02943631Albanian
    0.03011735French_Corsica
    0.03103996Italian_Umbria
    0.03223088Greek_Macedonia
    0.03232640Italian_Bergamo
    0.03374879Italian_Lazio
    0.03421376Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03432588Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03546127Swiss_Italian
    0.03594062Italian_Veneto
    0.03611853Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03699253Italian_Molise
    0.03787082Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03938887Italian_Apulia
    0.03939264Rumelia_East
    0.03941018Macedonian:Central
    0.04241476Greek_Izmir
    0.04333878Greek_Laconia
    0.04359595Italian_Northeast


    Distance to:Helladic_MBA:Log04
    0.03338522Macedonian:Pelagonia1
    0.03533605Greek_Thessaly
    0.03578505Macedonian:East2
    0.03745346Gagauz
    0.03778287Greek_Macedonia
    0.03797783Italian_Northeast
    0.03881694Albanian
    0.03883212Italian_Piedmont
    0.03909755Bulgarian
    0.03948434Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03986721Romanian
    0.03991323Macedonian:Central
    0.04069586Swiss_Italian
    0.04078406Italian_Veneto
    0.04141950Rumelia_East
    0.04155838Italian_Liguria
    0.04218237Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.04228890Italian_Lombardy
    0.04322381Italian_Bergamo
    0.04355271Italian_Tuscany
    0.04426418Macedonian:Northwest
    0.04443579Macedonian:Southeast
    0.04545280French_Provence
    0.04654212Montenegrin
    0.04671440Serbian

    Distance to:Helladic_EBA:Mik15
    0.07595865Sardinian
    0.08271601Italian_Calabria
    0.08298441Italian_Jew
    0.08382109Italian_Campania
    0.08448195Sicilian_East
    0.08480988Italian_Apulia
    0.08615882Italian_Basilicata
    0.08638623Romaniote_Jew
    0.08725117Sephardic_Jew
    0.08735623Maltese
    0.08789993Italian_Lazio
    0.08808007Greek_Dodecanese
    0.08892301Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.08937307Italian_Abruzzo
    0.09007834Greek_Kos
    0.09016055Sicilian_West
    0.09040410Cypriot_B
    0.09072775Italian_Molise
    0.09122491French_Corsica
    0.09179614Greek_Laconia
    0.09226700Greek_Crete
    0.09300389Italian_Umbria
    0.09325521Tunisian_Jew
    0.09328802Italian_Marche
    0.09437571Moroccan_Jew

    Distance to:Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
    0.05204134Greek_Kos
    0.05385652Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05480986Cypriot_B
    0.05680599Italian_Calabria
    0.05856668Italian_Campania
    0.05971432Romaniote_Jew
    0.06059452Italian_Jew
    0.06078801Italian_Basilicata
    0.06180311Greek_Crete
    0.06216075Italian_Apulia
    0.06230512Cypriot
    0.06317933Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.06476211Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.06480381Sephardic_Jew
    0.06506609Sicilian_East
    0.06632712Greek_Izmir
    0.06704354Maltese
    0.06706089Italian_Abruzzo
    0.06824511Italian_Molise
    0.06931194Greek_Laconia
    0.07018232Italian_Lazio
    0.07288819Italian_Umbria
    0.07298538Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.07331913Greek_Cappadocia
    0.07365125Ashkenazi_Poland

    Distance to:Minoan_EBA:Pta08
    0.07794846Italian_Jew
    0.07888632Romaniote_Jew
    0.07966648Greek_Dodecanese
    0.08001202Cypriot_B
    0.08029646Italian_Calabria
    0.08085760Sicilian_East
    0.08124932Italian_Campania
    0.08180170Sephardic_Jew
    0.08291480Italian_Apulia
    0.08321596Greek_Kos
    0.08375053Cypriot
    0.08429738Italian_Basilicata
    0.08538057Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.08657638Greek_Crete
    0.08690987Maltese
    0.08819190Tunisian_Jew
    0.08870051Italian_Abruzzo
    0.08913941Italian_Lazio
    0.08930199Sicilian_West
    0.08979417Italian_Molise
    0.08995290Sardinian
    0.09259749Greek_Izmir
    0.09262980Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.09272088Greek_Laconia
    0.09292286Libyan_Jew
    Can you check Log04 as well?

    In MTA this comes close to Albanians:

    Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
    1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 17.23 - Log04_wgs_trim5bp
    Top 90 % match vs all users


    Closest Modern

    1. Kosovar (10.17)
    2. Romanian (10.39)
    3. Bosnian (11.01)
    4. Bulgarian (11.17)
    5. Serbian (11.56)
    6. North_Italian (12.04)
    7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
    8. Macedonian (13.03)



    I did not notice you already did.

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  4. #479
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    The “speculation” was for south Illyrians, could they also be south Italian like and more close to Albanians?


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    Are there any sample IDs you could refer me to?

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...(Dodecad-K12b)

    aDNA Dodecad K12b has the full list of samples from Mathieson et al. 2018 which is the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe.

  5. #480
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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Can you check Log04 as well?

    In MTA this comes close to Albanians:

    Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
    1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 17.23 - Log04_wgs_trim5bp
    Top 90 % match vs all users


    Closest Modern

    1. Kosovar (10.17)
    2. Romanian (10.39)
    3. Bosnian (11.01)
    4. Bulgarian (11.17)
    5. Serbian (11.56)
    6. North_Italian (12.04)
    7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
    8. Macedonian (13.03)


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    Sorry? Log 4 is there.


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  6. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Sorry? Log 4 is there.
    Correct I did not notice.


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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Are you supporting the Anatolian route for Mycenaean or am I wrong?


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    No, I actually think the northern model makes more sense to me (steppe-related groups mixing with Minoans), in terms of where the culture came from. The connections to catacomb culture are very compelling. Though I don't know exactly how much steppe the proto-greeks had by the time they arrived in southern Greece; they could have already been mixed along the way. The Minoans themselves were Anatolian_N plus CHG/IN

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Are there any sample IDs you could refer me to?

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...(Dodecad-K12b)

    aDNA Dodecad K12b has the full list of samples from Mathieson et al. 2018 which is the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe.
    We all know that there are no samples from south Illyria this is why is an “speculation”. But now there are plenty of samples around. So it should be an educated speculation.


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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Clemente et al, in this graphic, confuse the issue imo by not differentiating between "steppe which had a CHG" component, and the Iran Neo/CHG like component by itself, which we know moved into, say, Crete, and from there no doubt into the mainland in the Early Bronze. (It's highly unlikely that steppe reached the Minoans by the Early Bronze.) The "steppe" people, from the evidence of the archaeology, arrived between the Early and Middle Bronze Age. That's why the authors wind up with that left over Hunter-Gatherer, when so far no Hunter-Gatherer remains (EHG OR WHG like) have been found south of the Iron Gates.



    As I have mentioned a few times, I think CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry entered Europe in a pincer like movement: one from the steppe, and one from Anatolia.

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    Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    No, I actually think the northern model makes more sense to me (steppe-related groups mixing with Minoans), in terms of where the culture came from. The connections to catacomb culture are very compelling. Though I don't know exactly how much steppe the proto-greeks had by the time they arrived in southern Greece; they could have already been mixed along the way. The Minoans themselves were Anatolian_N plus CHG/IN
    Steppe people might have reached Greece in small quantities well before Proto-Greeks.

    In such quantities will be hard to tell from where Proto-Greeks arrived. If the Armenian connection is valid, than the Anatolian route remains possible as does the route from Carpathian basin.


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    Pretty cool
    Talking about continue

    Distance to:Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
    0.05204134Greek_Kos
    0.05385652Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05480986Cypriot_B
    0.05680599Italian_Calabria
    0.05856668Italian_Campania
    0.05971432Romaniote_Jew
    0.06059452Italian_Jew
    0.06078801Italian_Basilicata
    0.06180311Greek_Crete
    0.06216075Italian_Apulia
    0.06230512Cypriot
    0.06317933Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.06476211Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.06480381Sephardic_Jew
    0.06506609Sicilian_East
    0.06632712Greek_Izmir
    0.06704354Maltese
    0.06706089Italian_Abruzzo
    0.06824511Italian_Molise
    0.06931194Greek_Laconia
    0.07018232Italian_Lazio
    0.07288819Italian_Umbria
    0.07298538Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.07331913Greek_Cappadocia
    0.07365125Ashkenazi_Poland
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Francis Drake View Post
    There is no reason for us to be BGR_IA + Slavic. The PCA says all; Albanians descend from Illyrians + Steppe heavy eastern balkaners: but I'm suppose to believe we are actually descended from near easterners + slavs, and somehow maintained our culture and spirit through that admixture... also the uniparentals don't support near-east introgression. I think Albos do have near-east potentially from *some* assimilation of urban people, as the proto-albanians expanded (but we would also have slavic + vlach aswell), but implying we underwent a massive population shift is nonsensical.

    i . imgur . com /fWaQuq7 .png
    imgur . com /a/e0Xnp0c
    First of all, there's no reason to use HRV_EBA and HRV_MBA when we have HRV_IA. Unless you think there's genetic continuity in the Dalmatian region from the Early Bronze Age..

    Just like modern Greek mainlanders plot close to the Logkas samples by coincidence, it's a similar case with other Balkan populations as well. You're doing the same thing we've all been accusing the Clemente et al paper of doing, i.e. proposing continuity arguments that are easily disproven ("Logkas = modern Thessalonicans").

    Since all modern southern Balkan groups form a cline, there's 2 ways for your argument to be true:

    1) Albanians are pure descendants of early Iron Age Balkan populations and all other Balkanites (including Bulgarians) are basically Albanians themselves. Also, the Slavs never settled Thrace, Macedonia, Thessaly and the Peloponnese, nor did any other major upheaval happen.
    2) Albanians are pure descendants of early Iron Age Balkan populations and they miraculously happen to fall on a cline with south Slavs and Greeks.
    Last edited by peloponnesian; 13-09-21 at 18:26. Reason: spelling

  13. #488
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    Anyone know where the Campania and Calabria samples are from? Are they the same unscientifically chosen set by that Northern Italian Nordicist?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Anyone know where the Campania and Calabria samples are from? Are they the same unscientifically chosen set by that Northern Italian Nordicist?
    Unfortunately, they are those chosen set, with dubious origin with regards to the updated Dodecad list on vahaduo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Unfortunately, they are those chosen set, with dubious origin with regards to the updated Dodecad list on vahaduo.
    I wish "public data" was actually public data. I tried to get modern samples from academic papers, but they require stuff like IRB forums, and such. Which means it is really only for other institutions to utilize, instead of people like us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Can you check Log04 as well?

    In MTA this comes close to Albanians:

    Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
    1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 17.23 - Log04_wgs_trim5bp
    Top 90 % match vs all users


    Closest Modern

    1. Kosovar (10.17)
    2. Romanian (10.39)
    3. Bosnian (11.01)
    4. Bulgarian (11.17)
    5. Serbian (11.56)
    6. North_Italian (12.04)
    7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
    8. Macedonian (13.03)



    I did not notice you already did.

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    That sample is not close to any one at 10.17 for the closest.

  17. #492
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Well, 8 is slightly better. :)

    These are the posted results of Stuvane from the Romagna:


    Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè
    3.43011662 Szolad31:Amorim_2018
    3.44400929 Szolad36:Amorim_2018
    3.71212877 Collegno36:Amorim_2018
    4.12127407 ETR007:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    4.21513938 Szolad43:Amorim_2018
    4.68264882 Vucedol:I3499:Mathieson_2018
    4.68931765 Protovillanovan_IA:R1:Antonio_2019
    4.83184230 Scythian:scy300:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
    5.25950568 C7-Mausole_di_Augusto_Late_Antiquity:R33:Antonio_2019
    5.55229682 Scythian:scy192:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
    5.57919349 Szolad37:Amorim_2018
    5.70363919 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021
    5.87326144 Collegno23:Amorim_2018
    5.96436920 TAQ009:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.09997541 C6-Celio_Late_Antiquity:R36:Antonio_2019
    6.18798836 POP001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.25171976 C7-Villa_Magna_MA:R55:Antonio_2019
    6.31981012 TAQ011:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.43351381 Croatia_EMBA:I4332:Mathieson_2018
    6.68472139 TAQ022:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    6.83624166 Hungary_BA:I7041:Olalde_2018
    6.89893470 Hungary_BA:I7043:Olalde_2018
    7.05863301 Croatia_EMBA:I4331:Mathieson_2018
    7.07541518 Scythian:scy197:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
    7.10973980 MOK17A:Zegarac_2021
    7.13288862 MOK31:Zegarac_2021
    7.29406608 C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R120:An tonio_2019
    7.43797688 Szolad28:Amorim_2018
    7.45917556 Burgweinting–Nord-West_II_(ADH)_388-532calADA_Female:NW54:Veeramah_2018
    7.52278539 Thraco-Cimmerian:MJ-12:Jarve_2019
    7.64956208 I5015:Olalde_2018
    7.80932776 TAQ020:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    7.97270970 Szolad1:Amorim_2018
    8.02461214 Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R111:Antoni o_2019
    8.03052925 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
    8.33039615 ETR003:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    8.36071767 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1283:Antonio_2019
    8.40716956 Croatia_LBA:I3313:Mathieson_2018
    8.52155502 I3593:Olalde_2018
    8.62461593 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1287:Antonio_2019
    8.85048021 La_Tène_IA:ERS88:Brunel_2020
    9.04734768 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1285:Antonio_2019
    9.15007104 SE_Iberia_c3-4CE:I4054:Olalde_2019
    9.15716659 ETR010:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
    9.18148681 C6-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1549:Antonio_2019
    9.18804658 C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R121:An tonio_2019
    9.21490640 C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R969:Antonio_2019
    9.34752374 MOK13:Zegarac_2021
    9.37029882 I8475:Olalde_2019
    9.65467762 Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019

    If more Northern Italians from places like Piemonte or Lombardia and the core Veneto i.e. not far northern Alpine areas with other admixture,would post their results it would be helpful.

    Caution as always, when you're talking about samples from different parts of Europe it doesn't NECESSARILY mean direct descent from one group to another; it could be that both groups are descended from more ancient groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Albanians were Southern Italian-like until they received about 20% Slavic admixture it seems, to me.
    A large chunk of 20% Slavic, especially in Ghegs is actually Germanic.
    The I1 alone is nearly as big as R1a and I2a combined in Northern Albanians. I don't know about maternal side though.

  19. #494
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    Do we know if EEF or Anatolia Neo had 10% CHG/Iran Neo like Minoans/Ancient Sardinians?
    I would assume that is a viable vector, for Otzi and all the paleo people of the continent, through farmer related ancestries, much earlier than the later CHG/Iran Neo introgression through Steppe.
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    bronze age aegean
    remains in G25 ( davidski)
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867421003706
    Distance to: Helladic_MBA:Log02
    0.02523331 Greek_Thessaly
    0.02642431 Italian_Tuscany
    0.02680568 Italian_Piedmont
    0.02711457 Italian_Lombardy
    0.02791138 Italian_Marche
    0.02845305 Italian_Liguria
    0.02943631 Albanian
    0.03011735 French_Corsica
    0.03103996 Italian_Umbria
    0.03223088 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03232640 Italian_Bergamo
    0.03374879 Italian_Lazio
    0.03421376 Greek_Peloponnese
    0.03432588 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03546127 Swiss_Italian
    0.03594062 Italian_Veneto
    0.03611853 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.03699253 Italian_Molise
    0.03787082 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.03938887 Italian_Apulia
    0.03939264 Rumelia_East
    0.03941018 Macedonian:Central
    0.04241476 Greek_Izmir
    0.04333878 Greek_Laconia
    0.04359595 Italian_Northeast
    Distance to: Helladic_MBA:Log04
    0.03338522 Macedonian:Pelagonia1
    0.03533605 Greek_Thessaly
    0.03578505 Macedonian:East2
    0.03745346 Gagauz
    0.03778287 Greek_Macedonia
    0.03797783 Italian_Northeast
    0.03881694 Albanian
    0.03883212 Italian_Piedmont
    0.03909755 Bulgarian
    0.03948434 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    0.03986721 Romanian
    0.03991323 Macedonian:Central
    0.04069586 Swiss_Italian
    0.04078406 Italian_Veneto
    0.04141950 Rumelia_East
    0.04155838 Italian_Liguria
    0.04218237 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
    0.04228890 Italian_Lombardy
    0.04322381 Italian_Bergamo
    0.04355271 Italian_Tuscany
    0.04426418 Macedonian:Northwest
    0.04443579 Macedonian:Southeast
    0.04545280 French_Provence
    0.04654212 Montenegrin
    0.04671440 Serbian
    Distance to: Helladic_EBA:Mik15
    0.07595865 Sardinian
    0.08271601 Italian_Calabria
    0.08298441 Italian_Jew
    0.08382109 Italian_Campania
    0.08448195 Sicilian_East
    0.08480988 Italian_Apulia
    0.08615882 Italian_Basilicata
    0.08638623 Romaniote_Jew
    0.08725117 Sephardic_Jew
    0.08735623 Maltese
    0.08789993 Italian_Lazio
    0.08808007 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.08892301 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.08937307 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.09007834 Greek_Kos
    0.09016055 Sicilian_West
    0.09040410 Cypriot_B
    0.09072775 Italian_Molise
    0.09122491 French_Corsica
    0.09179614 Greek_Laconia
    0.09226700 Greek_Crete
    0.09300389 Italian_Umbria
    0.09325521 Tunisian_Jew
    0.09328802 Italian_Marche
    0.09437571 Moroccan_Jew
    Distance to: Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
    0.05204134 Greek_Kos
    0.05385652 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.05480986 Cypriot_B
    0.05680599 Italian_Calabria
    0.05856668 Italian_Campania
    0.05971432 Romaniote_Jew
    0.06059452 Italian_Jew
    0.06078801 Italian_Basilicata
    0.06180311 Greek_Crete
    0.06216075 Italian_Apulia
    0.06230512 Cypriot
    0.06317933 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.06476211 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.06480381 Sephardic_Jew
    0.06506609 Sicilian_East
    0.06632712 Greek_Izmir
    0.06704354 Maltese
    0.06706089 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.06824511 Italian_Molise
    0.06931194 Greek_Laconia
    0.07018232 Italian_Lazio
    0.07288819 Italian_Umbria
    0.07298538 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    0.07331913 Greek_Cappadocia
    0.07365125 Ashkenazi_Poland
    Distance to: Minoan_EBA:Pta08
    0.07794846 Italian_Jew
    0.07888632 Romaniote_Jew
    0.07966648 Greek_Dodecanese
    0.08001202 Cypriot_B
    0.08029646 Italian_Calabria
    0.08085760 Sicilian_East
    0.08124932 Italian_Campania
    0.08180170 Sephardic_Jew
    0.08291480 Italian_Apulia
    0.08321596 Greek_Kos
    0.08375053 Cypriot
    0.08429738 Italian_Basilicata
    0.08538057 Ashkenazi_Germany
    0.08657638 Greek_Crete
    0.08690987 Maltese
    0.08819190 Tunisian_Jew
    0.08870051 Italian_Abruzzo
    0.08913941 Italian_Lazio
    0.08930199 Sicilian_West
    0.08979417 Italian_Molise
    0.08995290 Sardinian
    0.09259749 Greek_Izmir
    0.09262980 Ashkenazi_Poland
    0.09272088 Greek_Laconia
    0.09292286 Libyan_Jew
    Great summary! Thanks.

    Never actually visualized how few Ancient Aegean samples we have.
    Might want to add the Marathon sample there as well.

  21. #496
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,391

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    A large chunk of 20% Slavic, especially in Ghegs is actually Germanic.
    The I1 alone is nearly as big as R1a and I2a combined in Northern Albanians. I don't know about maternal side though.
    That's weird! Where does it come from? Any guidance from the sub-clades? Historical documents?

  22. #497
    Regular Member
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    27-08-20
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    Country: Albania



    Strange how North Albanians and Alb from Montenegro have a North-Western shift rather than East. Indeed, the mostly Gothic (minority Norman) Y-DNA could be an indicator. Id expect that Alb from Montenegro would be in between (more on the Alb side though) of North Alb and Montenegrins, but theyre even more Western shifted than North Albanians.
    Attachment 12910

    Lets not forget how Goths settle en masse in Moesia or how the Ostrogoths held Dalmatia (as well as Italy).

    I would speculate that these Goths were initially Romanized due to the fact that many historic Vlach Montenegrin clans have Gothic Y-DNA, eventually losing their Latin personal names and language in favour of the Slavic/Serbian one due to the influence of the Serbian Orthodox Church.

    Together with Montenegro, Kosovo, and North Albania, lets not forget also Thessaly (a Vlach old center) and the surrounding areas have elevated Germanic Y-DNA.

    It is my personal speculation and I dont see it as far fetched the fact that Goths (as a conglomerate of tribes) were eventually Romanized and were later known to us as Vlachs/Morlachs/Latins throughout the Balkans.

  23. #498
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    22-11-20
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    32


    Country: Albania



    Dushman, I believe

    Morača


    are one of the tribes that were originally celtic or germanic they are R-Z37

  24. #499
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    25-06-18
    Posts
    1,391

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-M269 (LDNA)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U5a1b

    Ethnic group
    Thracian
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    Dushman, I believe

    Morača


    are one of the tribes that were originally celtic or germanic they are R-Z37
    Where does the I1 come from?

  25. #500
    Regular Member
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    12-04-17
    Posts
    46






    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    Strange how North Albanians and Alb from Montenegro have a North-Western shift rather than East. Indeed, the mostly Gothic (minority Norman) Y-DNA could be an indicator. I�d expect that Alb from Montenegro would be in between (more on the Alb side though) of North Alb and Montenegrins, but they�re even more Western shifted than North Albanians.
    Attachment 12910

    Let�s not forget how Goths settle en masse in Moesia or how the Ostrogoths held Dalmatia (as well as Italy).

    I would speculate that these Goths were initially Romanized due to the fact that many historic Vlach Montenegrin clans have Gothic Y-DNA, eventually losing their Latin personal names and language in favour of the Slavic/Serbian one due to the influence of the Serbian Orthodox Church.

    Together with Montenegro, Kosovo, and North Albania, let�s not forget also Thessaly (a Vlach old center) and the surrounding areas have elevated Germanic Y-DNA.

    It is my personal speculation and I don�t see it as far fetched the fact that Goths (as a conglomerate of tribes) were eventually Romanized and were later known to us as Vlachs/Morlachs/Latins throughout the Balkans.
    The Ghegs are/were Hallstatt derived. That's were I think this signal is coming from.

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