Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

[blevins13]

Sarno et al. 2021, and Aneli et al. 2021 confirm that the pan-Mediterranean continuum is indeed represented by the population admixtures I present below:




Graphic by me (MTA is not a very reliable source, but here is a good use of their map nonetheless):




To me, it is likely that the father of ORD001 was similar to perhaps one of these Balkan_IA people.

Are you supporting the Anatolian route for Mycenaean or am I wrong?


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[Malisori2]

[QUOTE=blevins13;630942]Yes but only in SE Albania
And in other regions in Albania? How about isolated tribal regions...

[blevins13]

bronze age aegean
remains in G25 ( davidski)

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867421003706



Distance to:Helladic_MBA:Log02
0.02523331Greek_Thessaly
0.02642431Italian_Tuscany
0.02680568Italian_Piedmont
0.02711457Italian_Lombardy
0.02791138Italian_Marche
0.02845305Italian_Liguria
0.02943631Albanian
0.03011735French_Corsica
0.03103996Italian_Umbria
0.03223088Greek_Macedonia
0.03232640Italian_Bergamo
0.03374879Italian_Lazio
0.03421376Greek_Peloponnese
0.03432588Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03546127Swiss_Italian
0.03594062Italian_Veneto
0.03611853Italian_Abruzzo
0.03699253Italian_Molise
0.03787082Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03938887Italian_Apulia
0.03939264Rumelia_East
0.03941018Macedonian:Central
0.04241476Greek_Izmir
0.04333878Greek_Laconia
0.04359595Italian_Northeast


Distance to:Helladic_MBA:Log04
0.03338522Macedonian:Pelagonia1
0.03533605Greek_Thessaly
0.03578505Macedonian:East2
0.03745346Gagauz
0.03778287Greek_Macedonia
0.03797783Italian_Northeast
0.03881694Albanian
0.03883212Italian_Piedmont
0.03909755Bulgarian
0.03948434Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03986721Romanian
0.03991323Macedonian:Central
0.04069586Swiss_Italian
0.04078406Italian_Veneto
0.04141950Rumelia_East
0.04155838Italian_Liguria
0.04218237Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04228890Italian_Lombardy
0.04322381Italian_Bergamo
0.04355271Italian_Tuscany
0.04426418Macedonian:Northwest
0.04443579Macedonian:Southeast
0.04545280French_Provence
0.04654212Montenegrin
0.04671440Serbian

Distance to:Helladic_EBA:Mik15
0.07595865Sardinian
0.08271601Italian_Calabria
0.08298441Italian_Jew
0.08382109Italian_Campania
0.08448195Sicilian_East
0.08480988Italian_Apulia
0.08615882Italian_Basilicata
0.08638623Romaniote_Jew
0.08725117Sephardic_Jew
0.08735623Maltese
0.08789993Italian_Lazio
0.08808007Greek_Dodecanese
0.08892301Ashkenazi_Germany
0.08937307Italian_Abruzzo
0.09007834Greek_Kos
0.09016055Sicilian_West
0.09040410Cypriot_B
0.09072775Italian_Molise
0.09122491French_Corsica
0.09179614Greek_Laconia
0.09226700Greek_Crete
0.09300389Italian_Umbria
0.09325521Tunisian_Jew
0.09328802Italian_Marche
0.09437571Moroccan_Jew

Distance to:Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
0.05204134Greek_Kos
0.05385652Greek_Dodecanese
0.05480986Cypriot_B
0.05680599Italian_Calabria
0.05856668Italian_Campania
0.05971432Romaniote_Jew
0.06059452Italian_Jew
0.06078801Italian_Basilicata
0.06180311Greek_Crete
0.06216075Italian_Apulia
0.06230512Cypriot
0.06317933Ashkenazi_Germany
0.06476211Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.06480381Sephardic_Jew
0.06506609Sicilian_East
0.06632712Greek_Izmir
0.06704354Maltese
0.06706089Italian_Abruzzo
0.06824511Italian_Molise
0.06931194Greek_Laconia
0.07018232Italian_Lazio
0.07288819Italian_Umbria
0.07298538Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.07331913Greek_Cappadocia
0.07365125Ashkenazi_Poland

Distance to:Minoan_EBA:Pta08
0.07794846Italian_Jew
0.07888632Romaniote_Jew
0.07966648Greek_Dodecanese
0.08001202Cypriot_B
0.08029646Italian_Calabria
0.08085760Sicilian_East
0.08124932Italian_Campania
0.08180170Sephardic_Jew
0.08291480Italian_Apulia
0.08321596Greek_Kos
0.08375053Cypriot
0.08429738Italian_Basilicata
0.08538057Ashkenazi_Germany
0.08657638Greek_Crete
0.08690987Maltese
0.08819190Tunisian_Jew
0.08870051Italian_Abruzzo
0.08913941Italian_Lazio
0.08930199Sicilian_West
0.08979417Italian_Molise
0.08995290Sardinian
0.09259749Greek_Izmir
0.09262980Ashkenazi_Poland
0.09272088Greek_Laconia
0.09292286Libyan_Jew

Can you check Log04 as well?

In MTA this comes close to Albanians:

Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 17.23 - Log04_wgs_trim5bp
Top 90 % match vs all users


Closest Modern

1. Kosovar (10.17)
2. Romanian (10.39)
3. Bosnian (11.01)
4. Bulgarian (11.17)
5. Serbian (11.56)
6. North_Italian (12.04)
7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
8. Macedonian (13.03)



I did not notice you already did.

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[Jovialis]

The “speculation” was for south Illyrians, could they also be south Italian like and more close to Albanians?


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Are there any sample IDs you could refer me to?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...(Dodecad-K12b)

aDNA Dodecad K12b has the full list of samples from Mathieson et al. 2018 which is the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe.

[Angela]

Can you check Log04 as well?

In MTA this comes close to Albanians:

Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 17.23 - Log04_wgs_trim5bp
Top 90 % match vs all users


Closest Modern

1. Kosovar (10.17)
2. Romanian (10.39)
3. Bosnian (11.01)
4. Bulgarian (11.17)
5. Serbian (11.56)
6. North_Italian (12.04)
7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
8. Macedonian (13.03)


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Sorry? Log 4 is there.

[blevins13]

Sorry? Log 4 is there.

Correct I did not notice.


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[Jovialis]

Are you supporting the Anatolian route for Mycenaean or am I wrong?


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No, I actually think the northern model makes more sense to me (steppe-related groups mixing with Minoans), in terms of where the culture came from. The connections to catacomb culture are very compelling. Though I don't know exactly how much steppe the proto-greeks had by the time they arrived in southern Greece; they could have already been mixed along the way. The Minoans themselves were Anatolian_N plus CHG/IN

[blevins13]

Are there any sample IDs you could refer me to?

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...(Dodecad-K12b)

aDNA Dodecad K12b has the full list of samples from Mathieson et al. 2018 which is the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe.

We all know that there are no samples from south Illyria this is why is an “speculation”. But now there are plenty of samples around. So it should be an educated speculation.


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[Angela]

Clemente et al, in this graphic, confuse the issue imo by not differentiating between "steppe which had a CHG" component, and the Iran Neo/CHG like component by itself, which we know moved into, say, Crete, and from there no doubt into the mainland in the Early Bronze. (It's highly unlikely that steppe reached the Minoans by the Early Bronze.) The "steppe" people, from the evidence of the archaeology, arrived between the Early and Middle Bronze Age. That's why the authors wind up with that left over Hunter-Gatherer, when so far no Hunter-Gatherer remains (EHG OR WHG like) have been found south of the Iron Gates.



As I have mentioned a few times, I think CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry entered Europe in a pincer like movement: one from the steppe, and one from Anatolia.

[blevins13]

No, I actually think the northern model makes more sense to me (steppe-related groups mixing with Minoans), in terms of where the culture came from. The connections to catacomb culture are very compelling. Though I don't know exactly how much steppe the proto-greeks had by the time they arrived in southern Greece; they could have already been mixed along the way. The Minoans themselves were Anatolian_N plus CHG/IN

Steppe people might have reached Greece in small quantities well before Proto-Greeks.

In such quantities will be hard to tell from where Proto-Greeks arrived. If the Armenian connection is valid, than the Anatolian route remains possible as does the route from Carpathian basin.


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[kingjohn]

Pretty cool
Talking about continue

Distance to:Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
0.05204134Greek_Kos
0.05385652Greek_Dodecanese
0.05480986Cypriot_B
0.05680599Italian_Calabria
0.05856668Italian_Campania
0.05971432Romaniote_Jew
0.06059452Italian_Jew
0.06078801Italian_Basilicata
0.06180311Greek_Crete
0.06216075Italian_Apulia
0.06230512Cypriot
0.06317933Ashkenazi_Germany
0.06476211Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.06480381Sephardic_Jew
0.06506609Sicilian_East
0.06632712Greek_Izmir
0.06704354Maltese
0.06706089Italian_Abruzzo
0.06824511Italian_Molise
0.06931194Greek_Laconia
0.07018232Italian_Lazio
0.07288819Italian_Umbria
0.07298538Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.07331913Greek_Cappadocia
0.07365125Ashkenazi_Poland

[peloponnesian]

There is no reason for us to be BGR_IA + Slavic. The PCA says all; Albanians descend from Illyrians + Steppe heavy eastern balkaners: but I'm suppose to believe we are actually descended from near easterners + slavs, and somehow maintained our culture and spirit through that admixture... also the uniparentals don't support near-east introgression. I think Albos do have near-east potentially from *some* assimilation of urban people, as the proto-albanians expanded (but we would also have slavic + vlach aswell), but implying we underwent a massive population shift is nonsensical.

i . imgur . com /fWaQuq7 .png
imgur . com /a/e0Xnp0c

First of all, there's no reason to use HRV_EBA and HRV_MBA when we have HRV_IA. Unless you think there's genetic continuity in the Dalmatian region from the Early Bronze Age..

Just like modern Greek mainlanders plot close to the Logkas samples by coincidence, it's a similar case with other Balkan populations as well. You're doing the same thing we've all been accusing the Clemente et al paper of doing, i.e. proposing continuity arguments that are easily disproven ("Logkas = modern Thessalonicans").

Since all modern southern Balkan groups form a cline, there's 2 ways for your argument to be true:

1) Albanians are pure descendants of early Iron Age Balkan populations and all other Balkanites (including Bulgarians) are basically Albanians themselves. Also, the Slavs never settled Thrace, Macedonia, Thessaly and the Peloponnese, nor did any other major upheaval happen.
2) Albanians are pure descendants of early Iron Age Balkan populations and they miraculously happen to fall on a cline with south Slavs and Greeks.

[Angela]

Anyone know where the Campania and Calabria samples are from? Are they the same unscientifically chosen set by that Northern Italian Nordicist?

[Jovialis]

Anyone know where the Campania and Calabria samples are from? Are they the same unscientifically chosen set by that Northern Italian Nordicist?

Unfortunately, they are those chosen set, with dubious origin with regards to the updated Dodecad list on vahaduo.

[Jovialis]

Unfortunately, they are those chosen set, with dubious origin with regards to the updated Dodecad list on vahaduo.

I wish "public data" was actually public data. I tried to get modern samples from academic papers, but they require stuff like IRB forums, and such. Which means it is really only for other institutions to utilize, instead of people like us.

[bigsnake49]

Can you check Log04 as well?

In MTA this comes close to Albanians:

Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 17.23 - Log04_wgs_trim5bp
Top 90 % match vs all users


Closest Modern

1. Kosovar (10.17)
2. Romanian (10.39)
3. Bosnian (11.01)
4. Bulgarian (11.17)
5. Serbian (11.56)
6. North_Italian (12.04)
7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
8. Macedonian (13.03)



I did not notice you already did.

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That sample is not close to any one at 10.17 for the closest.

[Angela]

Well, 8 is slightly better. :)

These are the posted results of Stuvane from the Romagna:

Distance to:	Dodecadk12bStuvanè
3.43011662	Szolad31:Amorim_2018
3.44400929	Szolad36:Amorim_2018
3.71212877	Collegno36:Amorim_2018
4.12127407	ETR007:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
4.21513938	Szolad43:Amorim_2018
4.68264882	Vucedol:I3499:Mathieson_2018
4.68931765	Protovillanovan_IA:R1:Antonio_2019
4.83184230	Scythian:scy300:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
5.25950568	C7-Mausole_di_Augusto_Late_Antiquity:R33:Antonio_2019
5.55229682	Scythian:scy192:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
5.57919349	Szolad37:Amorim_2018
5.70363919	Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021
5.87326144	Collegno23:Amorim_2018
5.96436920	TAQ009:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
6.09997541	C6-Celio_Late_Antiquity:R36:Antonio_2019
6.18798836	POP001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
6.25171976	C7-Villa_Magna_MA:R55:Antonio_2019
6.31981012	TAQ011:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
6.43351381	Croatia_EMBA:I4332:Mathieson_2018
6.68472139	TAQ022:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
6.83624166	Hungary_BA:I7041:Olalde_2018
6.89893470	Hungary_BA:I7043:Olalde_2018
7.05863301	Croatia_EMBA:I4331:Mathieson_2018
7.07541518	Scythian:scy197:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct)
7.10973980	MOK17A:Zegarac_2021
7.13288862	MOK31:Zegarac_2021
7.29406608	C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R120:An tonio_2019
7.43797688	Szolad28:Amorim_2018
7.45917556	Burgweinting–Nord-West_II_(ADH)_388-532calADA_Female:NW54:Veeramah_2018
7.52278539	Thraco-Cimmerian:MJ-12:Jarve_2019
7.64956208	I5015:Olalde_2018
7.80932776	TAQ020:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
7.97270970	Szolad1:Amorim_2018
8.02461214	Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R111:Antoni o_2019
8.03052925	Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
8.33039615	ETR003:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
8.36071767	C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1283:Antonio_2019
8.40716956	Croatia_LBA:I3313:Mathieson_2018
8.52155502	I3593:Olalde_2018
8.62461593	C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1287:Antonio_2019
8.85048021	La_Tène_IA:ERS88:Brunel_2020
9.04734768	C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1285:Antonio_2019
9.15007104	SE_Iberia_c3-4CE:I4054:Olalde_2019
9.15716659	ETR010:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021
9.18148681	C6-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1549:Antonio_2019
9.18804658	C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R121:An tonio_2019
9.21490640	C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R969:Antonio_2019
9.34752374	MOK13:Zegarac_2021
9.37029882	I8475:Olalde_2019
9.65467762	Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019

If more Northern Italians from places like Piemonte or Lombardia and the core Veneto i.e. not far northern Alpine areas with other admixture,would post their results it would be helpful.

Caution as always, when you're talking about samples from different parts of Europe it doesn't NECESSARILY mean direct descent from one group to another; it could be that both groups are descended from more ancient groups.

[ihype02]

Albanians were Southern Italian-like until they received about 20% Slavic admixture it seems, to me.

A large chunk of 20% Slavic, especially in Ghegs is actually Germanic.
The I1 alone is nearly as big as R1a and I2a combined in Northern Albanians. I don't know about maternal side though.

[Archetype0ne]

Do we know if EEF or Anatolia Neo had 10% CHG/Iran Neo like Minoans/Ancient Sardinians?
I would assume that is a viable vector, for Otzi and all the paleo people of the continent, through farmer related ancestries, much earlier than the later CHG/Iran Neo introgression through Steppe.

[Archetype0ne]

bronze age aegean
remains in G25 ( davidski)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...92867421003706
Distance to: Helladic_MBA:Log02
0.02523331 Greek_Thessaly
0.02642431 Italian_Tuscany
0.02680568 Italian_Piedmont
0.02711457 Italian_Lombardy
0.02791138 Italian_Marche
0.02845305 Italian_Liguria
0.02943631 Albanian
0.03011735 French_Corsica
0.03103996 Italian_Umbria
0.03223088 Greek_Macedonia
0.03232640 Italian_Bergamo
0.03374879 Italian_Lazio
0.03421376 Greek_Peloponnese
0.03432588 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03546127 Swiss_Italian
0.03594062 Italian_Veneto
0.03611853 Italian_Abruzzo
0.03699253 Italian_Molise
0.03787082 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.03938887 Italian_Apulia
0.03939264 Rumelia_East
0.03941018 Macedonian:Central
0.04241476 Greek_Izmir
0.04333878 Greek_Laconia
0.04359595 Italian_Northeast
Distance to: Helladic_MBA:Log04
0.03338522 Macedonian:Pelagonia1
0.03533605 Greek_Thessaly
0.03578505 Macedonian:East2
0.03745346 Gagauz
0.03778287 Greek_Macedonia
0.03797783 Italian_Northeast
0.03881694 Albanian
0.03883212 Italian_Piedmont
0.03909755 Bulgarian
0.03948434 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.03986721 Romanian
0.03991323 Macedonian:Central
0.04069586 Swiss_Italian
0.04078406 Italian_Veneto
0.04141950 Rumelia_East
0.04155838 Italian_Liguria
0.04218237 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04228890 Italian_Lombardy
0.04322381 Italian_Bergamo
0.04355271 Italian_Tuscany
0.04426418 Macedonian:Northwest
0.04443579 Macedonian:Southeast
0.04545280 French_Provence
0.04654212 Montenegrin
0.04671440 Serbian
Distance to: Helladic_EBA:Mik15
0.07595865 Sardinian
0.08271601 Italian_Calabria
0.08298441 Italian_Jew
0.08382109 Italian_Campania
0.08448195 Sicilian_East
0.08480988 Italian_Apulia
0.08615882 Italian_Basilicata
0.08638623 Romaniote_Jew
0.08725117 Sephardic_Jew
0.08735623 Maltese
0.08789993 Italian_Lazio
0.08808007 Greek_Dodecanese
0.08892301 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.08937307 Italian_Abruzzo
0.09007834 Greek_Kos
0.09016055 Sicilian_West
0.09040410 Cypriot_B
0.09072775 Italian_Molise
0.09122491 French_Corsica
0.09179614 Greek_Laconia
0.09226700 Greek_Crete
0.09300389 Italian_Umbria
0.09325521 Tunisian_Jew
0.09328802 Italian_Marche
0.09437571 Moroccan_Jew
Distance to: Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
0.05204134 Greek_Kos
0.05385652 Greek_Dodecanese
0.05480986 Cypriot_B
0.05680599 Italian_Calabria
0.05856668 Italian_Campania
0.05971432 Romaniote_Jew
0.06059452 Italian_Jew
0.06078801 Italian_Basilicata
0.06180311 Greek_Crete
0.06216075 Italian_Apulia
0.06230512 Cypriot
0.06317933 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.06476211 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.06480381 Sephardic_Jew
0.06506609 Sicilian_East
0.06632712 Greek_Izmir
0.06704354 Maltese
0.06706089 Italian_Abruzzo
0.06824511 Italian_Molise
0.06931194 Greek_Laconia
0.07018232 Italian_Lazio
0.07288819 Italian_Umbria
0.07298538 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.07331913 Greek_Cappadocia
0.07365125 Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance to: Minoan_EBA:Pta08
0.07794846 Italian_Jew
0.07888632 Romaniote_Jew
0.07966648 Greek_Dodecanese
0.08001202 Cypriot_B
0.08029646 Italian_Calabria
0.08085760 Sicilian_East
0.08124932 Italian_Campania
0.08180170 Sephardic_Jew
0.08291480 Italian_Apulia
0.08321596 Greek_Kos
0.08375053 Cypriot
0.08429738 Italian_Basilicata
0.08538057 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.08657638 Greek_Crete
0.08690987 Maltese
0.08819190 Tunisian_Jew
0.08870051 Italian_Abruzzo
0.08913941 Italian_Lazio
0.08930199 Sicilian_West
0.08979417 Italian_Molise
0.08995290 Sardinian
0.09259749 Greek_Izmir
0.09262980 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.09272088 Greek_Laconia
0.09292286 Libyan_Jew

Great summary! Thanks.

Never actually visualized how few Ancient Aegean samples we have.
Might want to add the Marathon sample there as well.

[bigsnake49]

A large chunk of 20% Slavic, especially in Ghegs is actually Germanic.
The I1 alone is nearly as big as R1a and I2a combined in Northern Albanians. I don't know about maternal side though.

That's weird! Where does it come from? Any guidance from the sub-clades? Historical documents?

[Dushman]

Strange how North Albanians and Alb from Montenegro have a North-Western shift rather than East. Indeed, the mostly Gothic (minority Norman) Y-DNA could be an indicator. I�d expect that Alb from Montenegro would be in between (more on the Alb side though) of North Alb and Montenegrins, but they�re even more Western shifted than North Albanians.
Attachment 12910

Let�s not forget how Goths settle en masse in Moesia or how the Ostrogoths held Dalmatia (as well as Italy).

I would speculate that these Goths were initially Romanized due to the fact that many historic Vlach Montenegrin clans have Gothic Y-DNA, eventually losing their Latin personal names and language in favour of the Slavic/Serbian one due to the influence of the Serbian Orthodox Church.

Together with Montenegro, Kosovo, and North Albania, let�s not forget also Thessaly (a Vlach old center) and the surrounding areas have elevated Germanic Y-DNA.

It is my personal speculation and I don�t see it as far fetched the fact that Goths (as a conglomerate of tribes) were eventually Romanized and were later known to us as Vlachs/Morlachs/Latins throughout the Balkans.

[Excine]

Dushman, I believe

Morača

are one of the tribes that were originally celtic or germanic they are R-Z37

[bigsnake49]

Dushman, I believe

Morača

are one of the tribes that were originally celtic or germanic they are R-Z37

Where does the I1 come from?

[Constantine]

Strange how North Albanians and Alb from Montenegro have a North-Western shift rather than East. Indeed, the mostly Gothic (minority Norman) Y-DNA could be an indicator. I�d expect that Alb from Montenegro would be in between (more on the Alb side though) of North Alb and Montenegrins, but they�re even more Western shifted than North Albanians.
Attachment 12910

Let�s not forget how Goths settle en masse in Moesia or how the Ostrogoths held Dalmatia (as well as Italy).

I would speculate that these Goths were initially Romanized due to the fact that many historic Vlach Montenegrin clans have Gothic Y-DNA, eventually losing their Latin personal names and language in favour of the Slavic/Serbian one due to the influence of the Serbian Orthodox Church.

Together with Montenegro, Kosovo, and North Albania, let�s not forget also Thessaly (a Vlach old center) and the surrounding areas have elevated Germanic Y-DNA.

It is my personal speculation and I don�t see it as far fetched the fact that Goths (as a conglomerate of tribes) were eventually Romanized and were later known to us as Vlachs/Morlachs/Latins throughout the Balkans.

The Ghegs are/were Hallstatt derived. That's were I think this signal is coming from.