Are you supporting the Anatolian route for Mycenaean or am I wrong?
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Are you supporting the Anatolian route for Mycenaean or am I wrong?
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[QUOTE=blevins13;630942]Yes but only in SE Albania
And in other regions in Albania? How about isolated tribal regions...
Can you check Log04 as well?
In MTA this comes close to Albanians:
Ancient Middle Helladic Elati-Logkas Greece
1861 BC - Genetic Distance: 17.23 - Log04_wgs_trim5bp
Top 90 % match vs all users
Closest Modern
1. Kosovar (10.17)
2. Romanian (10.39)
3. Bosnian (11.01)
4. Bulgarian (11.17)
5. Serbian (11.56)
6. North_Italian (12.04)
7. Albanian_Tosk (12.36)
8. Macedonian (13.03)
I did not notice you already did.
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Are there any sample IDs you could refer me to?
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...(Dodecad-K12b)
aDNA Dodecad K12b has the full list of samples from Mathieson et al. 2018 which is the Genomic History of Southeastern Europe.
Correct I did not notice.
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No, I actually think the northern model makes more sense to me (steppe-related groups mixing with Minoans), in terms of where the culture came from. The connections to catacomb culture are very compelling. Though I don't know exactly how much steppe the proto-greeks had by the time they arrived in southern Greece; they could have already been mixed along the way. The Minoans themselves were Anatolian_N plus CHG/IN
We all know that there are no samples from south Illyria this is why is an “speculation”. But now there are plenty of samples around. So it should be an educated speculation.
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Clemente et al, in this graphic, confuse the issue imo by not differentiating between "steppe which had a CHG" component, and the Iran Neo/CHG like component by itself, which we know moved into, say, Crete, and from there no doubt into the mainland in the Early Bronze. (It's highly unlikely that steppe reached the Minoans by the Early Bronze.) The "steppe" people, from the evidence of the archaeology, arrived between the Early and Middle Bronze Age. That's why the authors wind up with that left over Hunter-Gatherer, when so far no Hunter-Gatherer remains (EHG OR WHG like) have been found south of the Iron Gates.
As I have mentioned a few times, I think CHG/Iran Neo like ancestry entered Europe in a pincer like movement: one from the steppe, and one from Anatolia.
Steppe people might have reached Greece in small quantities well before Proto-Greeks.
In such quantities will be hard to tell from where Proto-Greeks arrived. If the Armenian connection is valid, than the Anatolian route remains possible as does the route from Carpathian basin.
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Pretty cool
Talking about continue
Distance to:Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
0.05204134Greek_Kos
0.05385652Greek_Dodecanese
0.05480986Cypriot_B
0.05680599Italian_Calabria
0.05856668Italian_Campania
0.05971432Romaniote_Jew
0.06059452Italian_Jew
0.06078801Italian_Basilicata
0.06180311Greek_Crete
0.06216075Italian_Apulia
0.06230512Cypriot
0.06317933Ashkenazi_Germany
0.06476211Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.06480381Sephardic_Jew
0.06506609Sicilian_East
0.06632712Greek_Izmir
0.06704354Maltese
0.06706089Italian_Abruzzo
0.06824511Italian_Molise
0.06931194Greek_Laconia
0.07018232Italian_Lazio
0.07288819Italian_Umbria
0.07298538Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.07331913Greek_Cappadocia
0.07365125Ashkenazi_Poland
ancestery :
mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]
"Know where you came from and where you are going."
Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus
First of all, there's no reason to use HRV_EBA and HRV_MBA when we have HRV_IA. Unless you think there's genetic continuity in the Dalmatian region from the Early Bronze Age..
Just like modern Greek mainlanders plot close to the Logkas samples by coincidence, it's a similar case with other Balkan populations as well. You're doing the same thing we've all been accusing the Clemente et al paper of doing, i.e. proposing continuity arguments that are easily disproven ("Logkas = modern Thessalonicans").
Since all modern southern Balkan groups form a cline, there's 2 ways for your argument to be true:
1) Albanians are pure descendants of early Iron Age Balkan populations and all other Balkanites (including Bulgarians) are basically Albanians themselves. Also, the Slavs never settled Thrace, Macedonia, Thessaly and the Peloponnese, nor did any other major upheaval happen.
2) Albanians are pure descendants of early Iron Age Balkan populations and they miraculously happen to fall on a cline with south Slavs and Greeks.
Last edited by peloponnesian; 13-09-21 at 18:26. Reason: spelling
Anyone know where the Campania and Calabria samples are from? Are they the same unscientifically chosen set by that Northern Italian Nordicist?
Well, 8 is slightly better. :)
These are the posted results of Stuvane from the Romagna:
Distance to: Dodecadk12bStuvanè 3.43011662 Szolad31:Amorim_2018 3.44400929 Szolad36:Amorim_2018 3.71212877 Collegno36:Amorim_2018 4.12127407 ETR007:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 4.21513938 Szolad43:Amorim_2018 4.68264882 Vucedol:I3499:Mathieson_2018 4.68931765 Protovillanovan_IA:R1:Antonio_2019 4.83184230 Scythian:scy300:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct) 5.25950568 C7-Mausole_di_Augusto_Late_Antiquity:R33:Antonio_2019 5.55229682 Scythian:scy192:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct) 5.57919349 Szolad37:Amorim_2018 5.70363919 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021 5.87326144 Collegno23:Amorim_2018 5.96436920 TAQ009:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 6.09997541 C6-Celio_Late_Antiquity:R36:Antonio_2019 6.18798836 POP001:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 6.25171976 C7-Villa_Magna_MA:R55:Antonio_2019 6.31981012 TAQ011:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 6.43351381 Croatia_EMBA:I4332:Mathieson_2018 6.68472139 TAQ022:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 6.83624166 Hungary_BA:I7041:Olalde_2018 6.89893470 Hungary_BA:I7043:Olalde_2018 7.05863301 Croatia_EMBA:I4331:Mathieson_2018 7.07541518 Scythian:scy197:Krzewinska_2018_(Oct) 7.10973980 MOK17A:Zegarac_2021 7.13288862 MOK31:Zegarac_2021 7.29406608 C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R120:An tonio_2019 7.43797688 Szolad28:Amorim_2018 7.45917556 Burgweinting–Nord-West_II_(ADH)_388-532calADA_Female:NW54:Veeramah_2018 7.52278539 Thraco-Cimmerian:MJ-12:Jarve_2019 7.64956208 I5015:Olalde_2018 7.80932776 TAQ020:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 7.97270970 Szolad1:Amorim_2018 8.02461214 Via_Paisiello_Necropolis_Imperial_Rome:R111:Antoni o_2019 8.03052925 Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021 8.33039615 ETR003:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 8.36071767 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1283:Antonio_2019 8.40716956 Croatia_LBA:I3313:Mathieson_2018 8.52155502 I3593:Olalde_2018 8.62461593 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1287:Antonio_2019 8.85048021 La_Tène_IA:ERS88:Brunel_2020 9.04734768 C6-Cancelleria_MA:R1285:Antonio_2019 9.15007104 SE_Iberia_c3-4CE:I4054:Olalde_2019 9.15716659 ETR010:Etruscan_Pre-Print_2021 9.18148681 C6-Monterotondo_Imperial_Rome:R1549:Antonio_2019 9.18804658 C6-S_Ercolano_Necropolis_Ostia_Late_Antiquity:R121:An tonio_2019 9.21490640 C6-Tivoli_Palazzo_Cianti_MA:R969:Antonio_2019 9.34752374 MOK13:Zegarac_2021 9.37029882 I8475:Olalde_2019 9.65467762 Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019
If more Northern Italians from places like Piemonte or Lombardia and the core Veneto i.e. not far northern Alpine areas with other admixture,would post their results it would be helpful.
Caution as always, when you're talking about samples from different parts of Europe it doesn't NECESSARILY mean direct descent from one group to another; it could be that both groups are descended from more ancient groups.
Do we know if EEF or Anatolia Neo had 10% CHG/Iran Neo like Minoans/Ancient Sardinians?
I would assume that is a viable vector, for Otzi and all the paleo people of the continent, through farmer related ancestries, much earlier than the later CHG/Iran Neo introgression through Steppe.
“Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”
― Franz Kafka
Strange how North Albanians and Alb from Montenegro have a North-Western shift rather than East. Indeed, the mostly Gothic (minority Norman) Y-DNA could be an indicator. Id expect that Alb from Montenegro would be in between (more on the Alb side though) of North Alb and Montenegrins, but theyre even more Western shifted than North Albanians.
Attachment 12910
Lets not forget how Goths settle en masse in Moesia or how the Ostrogoths held Dalmatia (as well as Italy).
I would speculate that these Goths were initially Romanized due to the fact that many historic Vlach Montenegrin clans have Gothic Y-DNA, eventually losing their Latin personal names and language in favour of the Slavic/Serbian one due to the influence of the Serbian Orthodox Church.
Together with Montenegro, Kosovo, and North Albania, lets not forget also Thessaly (a Vlach old center) and the surrounding areas have elevated Germanic Y-DNA.
It is my personal speculation and I dont see it as far fetched the fact that Goths (as a conglomerate of tribes) were eventually Romanized and were later known to us as Vlachs/Morlachs/Latins throughout the Balkans.
Dushman, I believe
Morača
are one of the tribes that were originally celtic or germanic they are R-Z37