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Thread: Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Constantine View Post
    The Ghegs are/were Hallstatt derived. That's were I think this signal is coming from.
    Wait a minute, I1 is only 2% of the Y-DNA it really does not matter. I should have checked earlier. I2a-12%, R1a 9%. At least according to eupedia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Where does the I1 come from?

    Drobnjaci
    I1-P109>FGC16695>FGC16678>Y3662>S14887>Y11203>FGC2204 6>FGC22045


    The closest relatives outside the Balkan Peninsula are Swedes and other Nordic peoples. According to the methodology of the older grouping of researchers, their haplotype is classified in a cluster known as Nordic. By the time of the closest common ancestor of all tested I1-FGC22045 males it is only 700-800 years old (YFull, 2020, pp. 8.06.01-8.09.00). Thus, the common ancestor lived sometime in the 13th century. Outside the area of ​​the native Old Herzegovina and the area of ​​the countries where Serbs live, we meet their close relatives in S. Macedonia and in the south of Albania, and with the tested Romanian (probably a more recently assimilated line). (poreklo.rs)


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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Wait a minute, I1 is only 2% of the Y-DNA it really does not matter. I should have checked earlier. I2a-12%, R1a 9%. At least according to eupedia.

    According to my memory, the region of Malesia has the lowest I2a and R1a percentages, perhaps as low as 1-5 percent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Wait a minute, I1 is only 2% of the Y-DNA it really does not matter. I should have checked earlier. I2a-12%, R1a 9%. At least according to eupedia.
    http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
    In Ghegs there is 7.5% I1, and R1a and I2a are 8.5% combined.
    Most Slavic admixture in Albanians came after the Slavs were Christianized so that put things in prespective about those numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    That's weird! Where does it come from? Any guidance from the sub-clades? Historical documents?
    Albanians were not affected by the Pagans Slavs (they did not have the Roman power to assimilate them) which reduced the Germanic lines in others and most of Slavic input in Albanians came after the Christinization so I2a and R1a lines in Southern Slavs were reduced too by then.



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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
    In Ghegs there is 7.5% I1, and R1a and I2a are 8.5% combined.
    Most Slavic admixture in Albanians came after the Slavs were Christianized so that put things in prespective about those numbers.


    Albanians were not affected by the Pagans Slavs (they did not have the Roman power to assimilate them) which reduced the Germanic lines in others and most of Slavic input in Albanians came after the Christinization so I2a and R1a lines in Southern Slavs were reduced too by then.


    Are you disputing the distribution stats that eupedia has published? How can Ghegs have 7.5% and the whole country has 2%?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Are you disputing the distribution stats that eupedia has published? How can Ghegs have 7.5% and the whole country has 2%?
    That project has more samples and there is no incentive to increase it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    That project has more samples and there is no incentive to increase it.


    Sent from my ****** using Eupedia Forum
    Please explain.

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    I think that it is evident that post IA, Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and what have you, were not genetically uniform. As such, even if in theory no other people have been absorbed since then, the modern offspring can not possibly overlap with the ancients. Since those ancient people with genetic variety had time to intermix.

    As far as we know, there could have been North Italian like Illyrians as well as Mycenaean and/or Classical Greek like Illyrians. There is no way for Albanians to fully overlap with either of them.

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    different roman historian mentions different illyrian tribes than other historians

    appian



    interesting is that the tribe below sits near one of these non-illyrian

    https://www.itinari.com/daorson-the-...rzegovina-mk0p
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    I think that it is evident that post IA, Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and what have you, were not genetically uniform. As such, even if in theory no other people have been absorbed since then, the modern offspring can not possibly overlap with the ancients. Since those ancient people with genetic variety had time to intermix.

    As far as we know, there could have been North Italian like Illyrians as well as Mycenaean and/or Classical Greek like Illyrians. There is no way for Albanians to fully overlap with either of them.
    This! Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

    Even if Albanians had 0% Slavic and 0% East Med and whatnot, we cant overlap with every sample discovered in the extremities of the Balkans (namely Croatia, Thessaly, Marathon). It would require a certain Illyrian to have the perfect combination of admixtures that had 3000 years to merge.




    Regarding this paper, I still dont understand that they can claim that the 10th century AD Kuline sample has almost the same Slavic as modern Albanians when the latter plots very close to the IA locals, whereas the formers position seems to indicate Germanic admixture. For sure Im missing something as a beginner, so I hope someone more experienced can explain it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excine View Post
    According to my memory, the region of Malesia has the lowest I2a and R1a percentages, perhaps as low as 1-5 percent.
    3% Combined I2a R1a.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Are you disputing the distribution stats that eupedia has published? How can Ghegs have 7.5% and the whole country has 2%?
    There is some 1500 samples IIRC of YDNA that came out mostly last 4 years. Not sure when the Eupedia stats were last updated. But if we take current projects, in Malësia, around 3% of haplogroups are R1a, I2a1, combined.

    http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
    https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/

    Right click, translate to English
    https://rrenjet.com/malesia/

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    different roman historian mentions different illyrian tribes than other historians

    appian



    interesting is that the tribe below sits near one of these non-illyrian

    https://www.itinari.com/daorson-the-...rzegovina-mk0p
    I see youre struggling a lot with the ancient authors as to who would categorize as Illyrii proprie dicti or Illyrii perperam dicti.

    We dont care as its just a geographical term used for related tribes. In case you havent noticed, the further back in time you go, the less diversity there exists among tribes, as well as their languages being more related going back to a common Indo-European tongue.

    Latins, Oscans, and Umbrians are different yet belong to the same family. Are you going to say the Umbrians are not Italici proprie dicti?

    I couldnt care less if Im 10% Veneto-Liburnian, 15% Bessi Thracians, 7% Getae, 20% Autariatae, 5% Lucanian, and a remaining a bunch if 2% of everything else.

    The locals of Viminacium are more likely to be Thracian than Illyrians. Some of them could have been educated officials from Mainland Ancient Greece like Athenians and Corinthians for all we know, yet their results are interesting.

    In the future once all the data is released, Id love to see where specifically in the PCA is a certain J2b2, E-V13, or R1b is located, as in more North and West, or more South and East for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    First of all, there's no reason to use HRV_EBA and HRV_MBA when we have HRV_IA. Unless you think there's genetic continuity in the Dalmatian region from the Early Bronze Age..

    Just like modern Greek mainlanders plot close to the Logkas samples by coincidence, it's a similar case with other Balkan populations as well. You're doing the same thing we've all been accusing the Clemente et al paper of doing, i.e. proposing continuity arguments that are easily disproven ("Logkas = modern Thessalonicans").

    Since all modern southern Balkan groups form a cline, there's 2 ways for your argument to be true:

    1) Albanians are pure descendants of early Iron Age Balkan populations and all other Balkanites (including Bulgarians) are basically Albanians themselves. Also, the Slavs never settled Thrace, Macedonia, Thessaly and the Peloponnese, nor did any other major upheaval happen.
    2) Albanians are pure descendants of early Iron Age Balkan populations and they miraculously happen to fall on a cline with south Slavs and Greeks.
    About point one I just wanted to point out that your logic is not sound. Misnomer at best. But it seems more like teist counterpoints to evolution, where they say so humans are descendent of apes. Thing is the point is moot, since we are talking about common ancestor, rather than direct descent. Thus no... Bulgarians do not have to be Albanians, for both peoples to have a common "evolutionary" path up to a point in history.

    Hope people don't misunderstand this comment, since it can get nasty.

    Alas if you are going to put the words of "pure" into Albanian talking points, I think that is not fair, since I have not seen one member make that point in this whole thread. In fact various PCAs posted among others by Albanians support partial/yet major continuity without making that point. PCAs from the paper itself as well as by amateurs.
    [SPOILER]

    [/SPOILER]
    If nothing else refer to the Logkas paper, as well as the Minoan Lazaridis paper, which use Fstats, since I do share my reservations regarding 2d PCA angles in mapping 3d coordinates.

    Edit: No idea if the spoiler tag will work to try to declutter my posts, and clearing browser chache doesn't seem to fix edit bug, where edits beyond the first fail.

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    I think that a lot of people are hung up on the terms Illyrian and Thracian. The designations were used mainly as geographical terms. We have no idea so far if they were the same genetically or even if they spoke the same language. To the Greeks they were just the barbarians to the northwest and the barbarians to the northeast..
    Last edited by bigsnake49; 14-09-21 at 13:54.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    First of all, there's no reason to use HRV_EBA and HRV_MBA when we have HRV_IA. Unless you think there's genetic continuity in the Dalmatian region from the Early Bronze Age..

    Just like modern Greek mainlanders plot close to the Logkas samples by coincidence, it's a similar case with other Balkan populations as well. You're doing the same thing we've all been accusing the Clemente et al paper of doing, i.e. proposing continuity arguments that are easily disproven ("Logkas = modern Thessalonicans").

    Since all modern southern Balkan groups form a cline, there's 2 ways for your argument to be true:

    1) Albanians are pure descendants of early Iron Age Balkan populations and all other Balkanites (including Bulgarians) are basically Albanians themselves. Also, the Slavs never settled Thrace, Macedonia, Thessaly and the Peloponnese, nor did any other major upheaval happen.
    2) Albanians are pure descendants of early Iron Age Balkan populations and they miraculously happen to fall on a cline with south Slavs and Greeks.


    You've not provided a single argument. Also.... looking at the spread of the IA balkans cluster in the viminacium paper you know better than to assume 1 iron-age sample can cover everything. Also explain to me where MJ12 came from. Was he a bell-beaker? What about the E-V13 Iron-Age scy197 who was found in Moldova???

    Its funny how you think one of the most war-like people on earth were only 20% steppe, look at Burebista and say that again.

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    For me one good point extracted from the paper, and the most important one was the connection between E-V13 and cremation burials during Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age transition.

    A good candidate for E-V13 in Central-South Albania is Trebeniste Culture, the likes of Enchelei-Dassareti, and their distant relatives Taulanti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    3% Combined I2a R1a.
    that's quite remarkable, I imagine maternal side would have some slavic ancestry though, I remember reading malsors kidnapping brides as far as Bulgaria

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    Edited by moderator.
    Last edited by Angela; 14-09-21 at 14:13.

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
    In Ghegs there is 7.5% I1, and R1a and I2a are 8.5% combined.
    Most Slavic admixture in Albanians came after the Slavs were Christianized so that put things in prespective about those numbers.


    Albanians were not affected by the Pagans Slavs (they did not have the Roman power to assimilate them) which reduced the Germanic lines in others and most of Slavic input in Albanians came after the Christinization so I2a and R1a lines in Southern Slavs were reduced too by then.


    By comparison, on Rrenjet, out of 1181 samples, 7% is R1a, 7% I-Y3120, and I1 is only 5.9%

    In Ghegs I1 is 5.5%, R1a is 6.7%, and I-Y3120 is 5%.

    In Tosks I-Y3120 is 10.9%, R1a is 7.8%, and I1 is 6.8%. Also, before the projects split in 2, I-Y3120 and R1a were roughly around where they are at Rrenjet. I1 has a core area in the North and South which constitute most of the samples.

    https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Distance to: Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
    9.29563338 O_Italian
    11.65169516 N_Italian
    12.36874286 Romanians
    12.78404474 Bulgarian
    12.97004241 Bulgarians
    13.46156009 TSI30
    14.12935950 Tuscan
    14.96762172 North_Italian
    15.50102255 C_Italian
    17.59681221 Greek
    22.03691902 Baleares
    22.45305324 French
    22.48897063 Hungarians
    22.57076206 French
    22.60822417 S_Italian_Sicilian
    22.61788894 Sicilian
    22.81847497 Galicia
    23.42441034 Extremadura
    23.94427071 Portuguese
    24.47608016 English_mixed
    24.54564931 Ashkenazy_Jews
    24.66077452 Ashkenazi
    24.96116584 German
    25.64620440 Mixed_Germanic
    25.73028954 Murcia


    Distance to: Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021
    5.00732463 O_Italian
    7.84764933 C_Italian
    8.14922696 Tuscan
    8.46017139 TSI30
    9.66201325 Greek
    12.26597326 N_Italian
    13.92202212 Bulgarians
    14.18514716 North_Italian
    14.49394701 Bulgarian
    14.57112213 Sicilian
    14.87650833 S_Italian_Sicilian
    15.19429169 Romanians
    16.39294055 Ashkenazi
    16.57490875 Ashkenazy_Jews
    22.53518804 Sephardic_Jews
    23.86128873 Morocco_Jews
    23.89394275 Baleares
    25.28810195 Galicia
    26.16534158 Extremadura
    26.59044565 Portuguese
    27.05539687 Canarias
    27.16439766 Murcia
    28.13880417 Andalucia
    28.37048643 Castilla_Y_Leon
    28.92359763 Spaniards

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Distance to: Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log04:Clemente_2021
    9.29563338 O_Italian
    11.65169516 N_Italian
    12.36874286 Romanians
    12.78404474 Bulgarian
    12.97004241 Bulgarians
    13.46156009 TSI30
    14.12935950 Tuscan
    14.96762172 North_Italian
    15.50102255 C_Italian
    17.59681221 Greek
    22.03691902 Baleares
    22.45305324 French
    22.48897063 Hungarians
    22.57076206 French
    22.60822417 S_Italian_Sicilian
    22.61788894 Sicilian
    22.81847497 Galicia
    23.42441034 Extremadura
    23.94427071 Portuguese
    24.47608016 English_mixed
    24.54564931 Ashkenazy_Jews
    24.66077452 Ashkenazi
    24.96116584 German
    25.64620440 Mixed_Germanic
    25.73028954 Murcia


    Distance to: Helladic_Logkas_MBA:Log02:Clemente_2021
    5.00732463 O_Italian
    7.84764933 C_Italian
    8.14922696 Tuscan
    8.46017139 TSI30
    9.66201325 Greek
    12.26597326 N_Italian
    13.92202212 Bulgarians
    14.18514716 North_Italian
    14.49394701 Bulgarian
    14.57112213 Sicilian
    14.87650833 S_Italian_Sicilian
    15.19429169 Romanians
    16.39294055 Ashkenazi
    16.57490875 Ashkenazy_Jews
    22.53518804 Sephardic_Jews
    23.86128873 Morocco_Jews
    23.89394275 Baleares
    25.28810195 Galicia
    26.16534158 Extremadura
    26.59044565 Portuguese
    27.05539687 Canarias
    27.16439766 Murcia
    28.13880417 Andalucia
    28.37048643 Castilla_Y_Leon
    28.92359763 Spaniards
    Distance to: Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
    5.97005863 C_Italian
    7.83121319 Tuscan
    9.06121405 Sicilian
    9.15518979 TSI30
    9.44646495 S_Italian_Sicilian
    12.06840089 O_Italian
    12.69731074 Greek
    13.67207738 Ashkenazi
    14.24926665 Ashkenazy_Jews
    16.28460930 Sephardic_Jews
    16.29218217 North_Italian
    16.76432820 N_Italian
    17.58261926 Morocco_Jews
    25.69042039 Baleares
    25.95176873 Bulgarians
    26.11159704 Cypriots
    26.49297454 Bulgarian
    27.47030579 Romanians
    27.68851206 Andalucia
    27.74512029 Canarias
    27.78383883 Murcia
    27.96418960 Galicia
    28.37079660 Extremadura
    29.05719188 Portuguese
    30.06958097 Castilla_Y_Leon

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    Distance to: Bronze_Age_Illyrians
    4.09920724 N_Italian
    7.16161993 North_Italian
    7.52141609 O_Italian
    7.74102706 TSI30
    9.37360656 Tuscan
    12.29670688 C_Italian
    15.79831953 Baleares
    17.31780875 Galicia
    17.77266722 Bulgarians
    17.82596140 Romanians
    17.94900833 Greek
    18.18297280 Extremadura
    18.22950630 Bulgarian
    18.93919745 Portuguese
    19.69885530 Murcia
    20.42285240 Castilla_Y_Leon
    20.55231617 Andalucia
    20.58414195 Spaniards
    20.80252148 Canarias
    20.95075416 French
    20.95902908 Cataluna
    21.05509914 Sicilian
    21.17245616 S_Italian_Sicilian
    21.30932190 French
    21.88786193 Spanish

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    1 members found this post helpful.


    Balkans_IA is modeled as Slovenian_IA plus Aegean_BA/IA. If anything, populations like Log4 and Log2 who would be closer to Slovenian_IA mixed with Aegean people to create the Balkans IA

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    And where is that sample Slovenian_IA? I haven't seen any Slovenian_IA sample before?

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