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Thread: Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

  1. #526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    And where is that sample Slovenian_IA? I haven't seen any Slovenian_IA sample before?
    Maybe it will be released once this study is published.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Distance to: Balkan_(Bulgaria)_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
    5.97005863 C_Italian
    7.83121319 Tuscan
    9.06121405 Sicilian
    9.15518979 TSI30
    9.44646495 S_Italian_Sicilian
    12.06840089 O_Italian
    12.69731074 Greek
    13.67207738 Ashkenazi
    14.24926665 Ashkenazy_Jews
    16.28460930 Sephardic_Jews
    16.29218217 North_Italian
    16.76432820 N_Italian
    17.58261926 Morocco_Jews
    25.69042039 Baleares
    25.95176873 Bulgarians
    26.11159704 Cypriots
    26.49297454 Bulgarian
    27.47030579 Romanians
    27.68851206 Andalucia
    27.74512029 Canarias
    27.78383883 Murcia
    27.96418960 Galicia
    28.37079660 Extremadura
    29.05719188 Portuguese
    30.06958097 Castilla_Y_Leon
    Given that Stuvane is at a distance of 4 from Log2, clearly Romagna wasn't included. :)

    Nice job.

    Glad someone provided a really big study of the yDna in Albania. It certainly explains an approximately 20% combined Slavic and "Germanic" input, with the Germanic portion being roughly about 1/3. Unlike autosomal dna, where you can get the "picture" of the cluster from not many samples, with yDna the more samples the better, as we all know.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Distance to: Bronze_Age_Illyrians
    4.09920724 N_Italian
    7.16161993 North_Italian
    7.52141609 O_Italian
    7.74102706 TSI30
    9.37360656 Tuscan
    12.29670688 C_Italian
    15.79831953 Baleares
    17.31780875 Galicia
    17.77266722 Bulgarians
    17.82596140 Romanians
    17.94900833 Greek
    18.18297280 Extremadura
    18.22950630 Bulgarian
    18.93919745 Portuguese
    19.69885530 Murcia
    20.42285240 Castilla_Y_Leon
    20.55231617 Andalucia
    20.58414195 Spaniards
    20.80252148 Canarias
    20.95075416 French
    20.95902908 Cataluna
    21.05509914 Sicilian
    21.17245616 S_Italian_Sicilian
    21.30932190 French
    21.88786193 Spanish
    Are N_Italian and North_Italian from different areas?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Maybe it will be released once this study is published.
    I see, makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    Please explain.
    Explain what?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Are N_Italian and North_Italian from different areas?
    North Italian is the academic HGDP sample which consists of a small group specifically from Bergamo.

    N Italian are volunteers to Dodecad from Northern Italy. In the early days of the project there was a thread where people could state where they were from...otherwise, Dienekes respected their privacy. All four grandparents had to come from that region.

    From the ones I remember responding, quite a few were still from Lombardia, just further south, one was from the northeast if I remember correctly, but no one from Emilia or Romagna or Liguria that I remember.


    Fwiw, the samples are very similar, with the non-academic sample being just slightly more "northern", probably because of the Veneto sample.

    'K12b' spreadsheet - Google Sheets

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Are N_Italian and North_Italian from different areas?
    in regards to this ................I like to mention what I was told about it 5 plus years ago

    the tested "illyrians" in that chart above had also O_Italians which is .....Other Italians ..............ie, Italians that come from areas which is not Italy today , but was Italian centuries ago, like Istria, Dalmatia, part of french riviera etc


    note
    TSI30 and Tuscan are both from Tuscany ...............unsure what the difference is


    anyway you might see some etruscan-Illyrian noted samples moving forward in time
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-Z282

  8. #533
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post


    Balkans_IA is modeled as Slovenian_IA plus Aegean_BA/IA. If anything, populations like Log4 and Log2 who would be closer to Slovenian_IA mixed with Aegean people to create the Balkans IA

    the slovenian-greek mix could be from Mycenaean mixing with istrian-illyrians

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castellieri_culture

  9. #534
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Distance to: Bronze_Age_Illyrians
    4.09920724 N_Italian
    7.16161993 North_Italian
    7.52141609 O_Italian
    7.74102706 TSI30
    9.37360656 Tuscan
    12.29670688 C_Italian
    15.79831953 Baleares
    17.31780875 Galicia
    17.77266722 Bulgarians
    17.82596140 Romanians
    17.94900833 Greek
    18.18297280 Extremadura
    18.22950630 Bulgarian
    18.93919745 Portuguese
    19.69885530 Murcia
    20.42285240 Castilla_Y_Leon
    20.55231617 Andalucia
    20.58414195 Spaniards
    20.80252148 Canarias
    20.95075416 French
    20.95902908 Cataluna
    21.05509914 Sicilian
    21.17245616 S_Italian_Sicilian
    21.30932190 French
    21.88786193 Spanish

    which Illyrian sample is this.......waht is the sample ID ?


    .................................................. .....................
    For what it is worth
    to compare with myself...............I was told by DNATribes in 2012 ....that I was Balkar ( north Caucasus ) and became North-Pannonian ( austria-hungary ) when my line entered Europe
    Distance to: Torziok12b
    7.31461551 N_Italian
    9.24966341 O_Italian
    10.73141650 North_Italian
    12.22643039 TSI30
    13.80326773 Tuscan
    16.01512098 C_Italian
    16.27628950 Romanians
    16.46947479 Baleares
    17.05822969 Galicia
    17.07617053 Bulgarian
    17.12228373 Bulgarians
    17.86829035 Extremadura
    17.92111604 French
    18.08995578 French
    18.38292414 Portuguese
    20.19489044 Murcia
    20.45467184 Castilla_Y_Leon
    20.48964617 Cataluna
    20.55820031 Greek
    20.81762715 Spaniards
    21.12570946 Canarias
    21.59592091 Andalucia
    21.69443477 English_mixed
    21.78016988 Spanish
    22.99629535 Mixed_Germanic


    Target: Torziok12b
    Distance: 0.8834% / 0.88335520 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    53.2 N_Italian
    21.8 German
    21.8 O_Italian
    3.2 Tajiks


  10. #535
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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    note
    TSI30 and Tuscan are both from Tuscany ...............unsure what the difference is
    TSI is a subset used by Metspalu of TSI, from unknown locality in the province of Florence, Tuscan is Tuscan HGDP, according to CEPH it's from the province of Grosseto (Colline Metallifere).


    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    North Italian is the academic HGDP sample which consists of a small group specifically from Bergamo.

    N Italian are volunteers to Dodecad from Northern Italy. In the early days of the project there was a thread where people could state where they were from...otherwise, Dienekes respected their privacy. All four grandparents had to come from that region.

    From the ones I remember responding, quite a few were still from Lombardia, just further south, one was from the northeast if I remember correctly, but no one from Emilia or Romagna or Liguria that I remember.


    Fwiw, the samples are very similar, with the non-academic sample being just slightly more "northern", probably because of the Veneto sample.

    'K12b' spreadsheet - Google Sheets

    In N_Italian_D (N_Italian_Dodecad), based on 5 individuals, there is also at least one Friulian, to my knowledge.

  11. #536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pax Augusta View Post
    TSI is a subset used by Metspalu of TSI, from unknown locality in the province of Florence, Tuscan is Tuscan HGDP, according to CEPH it's from the province of Grosseto (Colline Metallifere).





    In N_Italian_D (N_Italian_Dodecad), based on 5 individuals, there is also at least one Friulian, to my knowledge.
    Yes, I know exactly who you mean. He's why they're a bit more "north" than the HGDP sample.

    There are other academic sources for Northern Italy, but they were published after Dienekes stopped updating the calculator.

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    good post by michaelis from anthrogenica
    so i share it
    .

    Averaged HRV IA and BGR IA under assumption you'll get a fair Balkans IA centroid that way. The Sclaveni probably already had a lot of this ancestry before entering Greece IMO.

    Avar Szolad for the northern Euro ancestry in the Sclaveni.

    Emporiote and Balkans IA might be somewhat interchangeable here for obvious reasons. BGR IA already had quite a bit of affinity to Mycenaeans/Emporiotes anyway. There might have been a cline in antiquity from Balkans IA-like in most of the Balkans to more Mycenaean-like as you neared Greece itself
    .




    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

  13. #538
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    good post by michaelis from anthrogenica
    so i share it
    .

    Averaged HRV IA and BGR IA under assumption you'll get a fair Balkans IA centroid that way. The Sclaveni probably already had a lot of this ancestry before entering Greece IMO.

    Avar Szolad for the northern Euro ancestry in the Sclaveni.

    Emporiote and Balkans IA might be somewhat interchangeable here for obvious reasons. BGR IA already had quite a bit of affinity to Mycenaeans/Emporiotes anyway. There might have been a cline in antiquity from Balkans IA-like in most of the Balkans to more Mycenaean-like as you neared Greece itself
    .




    Why would these be good choices for admixture?

    There’s duplication in three out of the four samples , for one thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Why would these be good choices for admixture?

    There’s duplication in three out of the four samples , for one thing.

    it is damn hard for me to protect his method
    but since the lazaridis paper with the marathon sample is not published yet
    and we dont have the danubian limes bam files of the balkan bronze age cluster yet

    he took the sources that might be resonable to creat for alike sources


    his explanations:

    Averaged HRV IA and BGR IA under assumption you'll get a fair Balkans IA centroid that way
    . The Sclaveni probably already had a lot of this ancestry before entering Greece IMO.

    Avar Szolad for the northern Euro ancestry in the Sclaveni.

    Emporiote and Balkans IA might be somewhat interchangeable here for obvious reasons. BGR IA already had quite a bit of affinity to Mycenaeans/Emporiotes anyway. There might have been a cline in antiquity from Balkans IA-like in most of the Balkans to more Mycenaean-like as you neared Greece itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    good post by michaelis from anthrogenica
    so i share it
    .

    Averaged HRV IA and BGR IA under assumption you'll get a fair Balkans IA centroid that way. The Sclaveni probably already had a lot of this ancestry before entering Greece IMO.

    Avar Szolad for the northern Euro ancestry in the Sclaveni.

    Emporiote and Balkans IA might be somewhat interchangeable here for obvious reasons. BGR IA already had quite a bit of affinity to Mycenaeans/Emporiotes anyway. There might have been a cline in antiquity from Balkans IA-like in most of the Balkans to more Mycenaean-like as you neared Greece itself
    .





    Are you using the term Schlaveni as the origins of Slavs from Ukraine, Belarus and slovakia lands ................or are you adding polish Wends and Silesians ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    it is damn hard for me to protect his method
    but since the lazaridis paper with the marathon sample is not published yet
    and we dont have the danubian limes bam files of the balkan bronze age cluster yet

    he took the sources that might be resonable to creat for alike sources


    his explanations:

    Averaged HRV IA and BGR IA under assumption you'll get a fair Balkans IA centroid that way
    . The Sclaveni probably already had a lot of this ancestry before entering Greece IMO.

    Avar Szolad for the northern Euro ancestry in the Sclaveni.

    Emporiote and Balkans IA might be somewhat interchangeable here for obvious reasons. BGR IA already had quite a bit of affinity to Mycenaeans/Emporiotes anyway. There might have been a cline in antiquity from Balkans IA-like in most of the Balkans to more Mycenaean-like as you neared Greece itself.

    I thought he used the term to represent the ancient Antes and not the north-caucasian Avars ..................which is it ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    I thought he used the term to represent the ancient Antes and not the north-caucasian Avars ..................which is it ?
    it is not avars from caucasus
    it is the barbarian avars from szoald grave yard
    in g25 they cluster with modern poles
    so this refernce it is a good source for slavic admixture influence
    on modern greeks

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    I never understood why the Germanics in the Balkans are completely ignored, when in my eyes they were the fathers of migrating en masse, migrating to distant locations, and settling somewhere else. Not forgetting how the Celts settled even in the Balkans and even as far as Galatia in Anatolia, its just that Germanics fit better the time period were discussing.

    Since that Szolad sample fits Poland so well and oftentimes Poland is used as a proxy for Slavic admixture, does any member here have reliable data on the percentage of Germanic admixture in modern Poland?

    Id be surprised if Poland is less than 50% Gothic/Germanic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    I never understood why the Germanics in the Balkans are completely ignored, when in my eyes they were the fathers of migrating en masse, migrating to distant locations, and settling somewhere else. Not forgetting how the Celts settled even in the Balkans and even as far as Galatia in Anatolia, it�s just that Germanics fit better the time period we�re discussing.

    Since that Szolad sample fits Poland so well and oftentimes Poland is used as a proxy for Slavic admixture, does any member here have reliable data on the percentage of Germanic admixture in modern Poland?

    I�d be surprised if Poland is less than 50% Gothic/Germanic.
    I'd be extremely surprised if Poland was anywhere near that figure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    I'd be extremely surprised if Poland was anywhere near that figure.
    Same.




    ...

  21. #546
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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    good post by michaelis from anthrogenica
    so i share it
    .

    Averaged HRV IA and BGR IA under assumption you'll get a fair Balkans IA centroid that way. The Sclaveni probably already had a lot of this ancestry before entering Greece IMO.

    Avar Szolad for the northern Euro ancestry in the Sclaveni.

    Emporiote and Balkans IA might be somewhat interchangeable here for obvious reasons. BGR IA already had quite a bit of affinity to Mycenaeans/Emporiotes anyway. There might have been a cline in antiquity from Balkans IA-like in most of the Balkans to more Mycenaean-like as you neared Greece itself
    .




    According to this study, mainland Greeks apparently fit better with Empuries than Roman Greek, who is used to model Aegean Islands, Crete and Cyprus.

    7B8575C6-2810-47D7-8D64-B30718656D93.jpg

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    The islanders are closer to the Roman Greek from Attica than the Greek from Empuries. There are no mainlanders for the Roman Greek sample comparison.

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    Why don't these guys use formal tests for their admixture runs, since when are PCAs used for admixture?

    Also what is considered a "good fit"; you can get <2% on the Albanian average with Myceanean + BGR_IA/HRV_IA + Slav. Are we just using arbitrary standards of <1.5% now? How is this supported?

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    It is not supported. In fact there is such a thing as an overfit. And these are not even close to 1%< are they? Did not see any distances mentioned, maybe I have to check again.

    What I do see is p-value of .20 for Albanian under that model.
    That p value in any scientific enviroment, sends the null hypothesis straight into the trash. Even social sciences require smth like .05, genetics I would expect .01.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dushman View Post
    I never understood why the Germanics in the Balkans are completely ignored, when in my eyes they were the fathers of migrating en masse, migrating to distant locations, and settling somewhere else. Not forgetting how the Celts settled even in the Balkans and even as far as Galatia in Anatolia, its just that Germanics fit better the time period were discussing.

    Since that Szolad sample fits Poland so well and oftentimes Poland is used as a proxy for Slavic admixture, does any member here have reliable data on the percentage of Germanic admixture in modern Poland?

    Id be surprised if Poland is less than 50% Gothic/Germanic.
    They have pre-Slavic, including Germanic admixture, but its not nearly as high. I think its even possible that the post-migration period German settlement had more of a Germanic impact than the ancient one. But this needs to be tested once more ancient DNA samples come out.

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