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Thread: Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Christians Albanian are just as much northern shifted as Muslims one.
    For Albanians I have said it before that original Albanians ancestors were probably more northern shifted compared to Roman Thraco-Macedonians in particular.

    As for Slavic admixture there is a new study coming up that promises a great deal of Slavic admixture in Macedonia. Don't be surprised if the bulk of Imperial Era Greco-Thracians of Northern Greece (more than 50%) were replaced due to Late Antiquity Barbarian input (mostly Slavic) and some Anatolians that settled in there.
    For starters almost half of the Greeks in Macedonia hail from Asia Minor due to the population exchanges. So there is more than 50% popopulation replacement to begin with. So I wonder wether people who estimate that Greek Macedonians have 40 % Slavic ancestry or something of the sort, actually realise that they are insinuating that Greek Macedonians were 80% Slav prior to the population exchanges. And 50% Slav means that the Greeks of Macedonia are pure Slavs.

    That said, overall the Greeks of Asia Minor must have brought a lot of old genes back to Macedonia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    For starters almost half of the Greeks in Macedonia hail from Asia Minor due to the population exchanges. So there is more than 50% popopulation replacement to begin with. So I wonder wether people who estimate that Greek Macedonians have 40 % Slavic ancestry or something of the sort, actually realise that they are insinuating that Greek Macedonians were 80% Slav prior to the population exchanges. And 50% Slav means that the Greeks of Macedonia are pure Slavs.

    That said, overall the Greeks of Asia Minor must have brought a lot of old genes back to Macedonia.
    No I was talking about indigenous Greek Macedonians. Some Anatolians settled there during the Antiquity and Middle Ages. Davidski has seen many Anatolian-like outliers in the Roman and/or the Hellenistic period in the upcoming paper.

    There is a good change that during 1CE to 1000CE the bulk of population was replaced with Slavs, Anatolians and Goths combined together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    No I was talking about indigenous Greek Macedonians. Some Anatolians settled there during the Antiquity and Middle Ages. Davidski has seen many Anatolian-like outliers in the Roman and/or the Hellenistic period in the upcoming paper.

    There is a good change that during 1CE to 1000CE the bulk of population was replaced with Slavs, Anatolians and Goths combined together.
    There are no documented major population movements by Anatolians in Macedonia prior to the exchange of populations. There is a document migration of Greeks from East Rumelia prior to the Balkan wars because of attacks by irregular Bulgarian units. There are also no genetic traces left behind by the Goths in Macedonia. There are documented movements of Slavs into Greece.

    We have no information on whether the Y-DNA distribution of the slavic haplogroups are from mixed ancestry of Anatolian Greeks & locals or just locals.

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    Maybe E-V13 is essentially Thracian in origin. The Slavic migration pulled Thracians south in great numbers. Also many Peloponnesians have origin from other Mainland parts. 40% of Peloponnese population was resettled from Venetians in 18th/17th century. This could've happened in history many times but in lower numbers sure.

    "Formerly the territory they possessed was more extensive, although even now the barbarians possess a large part of the country, which, without dispute, is Greece. Macedonia is occupied by Thracians, as well as some parts of Thessaly; the country above Acarnania and Aetolia, by Thesproti, Cassopaei, Amphilochi, Molotti, and Athamanes, Epirotic tribes. Book
    7, ch. 7, frg. 1.''

    Strabo spoke lot of gibberish so I wont take it for granted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post

    There is a good change that during 1CE to 1000CE the bulk of population was replaced with Slavs, Anatolians and Goths combined together.
    I think a replacement is unlikely, given that the second capital of the Eastern Roman Empire was in Macedonia (Thessalonica). In medieval times it would have been very hard for migrants to replace populations which lived in metropolitan centers. But there certainly has been intermixing in Macedonia. Do not underestimate 1000 CE to 1900 CE where during the Ottoman Empire, for example, many Slavs went due South towards the Aegean. But South of the city of Thessalonica far less Slavs have been recorded historically.

    On that note, I think the area of Northern Greece had more Steppe admixture than the South of Greece to begin with. So unless we have ancient DNA of the Hellenistic or early Roman era, there will be many papers which overrate the Slavic admixture. I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    I think a replacement is unlikely, given that the second capital of the Eastern Roman Empire was in Macedonia (Thessalonica). In medieval times it would have been very hard for migrants to replace populations which lived in metropolitan centers. But there certainly has been intermixing in Macedonia. Do not underestimate 1000 CE to 1900 CE where during the Ottoman Empire, for example, many Slavs went due South towards the Aegean. But South of the city of Thessalonica far less Slavs have been recorded historically.

    On that note, I think the area of Northern Greece had more Steppe admixture than the South of Greece to begin with. So unless we have ancient DNA of the Hellenistic or early Roman era, there will be many papers which overrate the Slavic admixture. I believe.
    Thessaloniki was a Metropolitan Centre that probably attracted many Anatolians, Anatolia to Eastern Roman Empire was like Italy to Western Roman Empire. The Macedonians of G25 are from an official paper. They all have their grandparents, Macedonians, prior to population exchange. Modern Macedonians are roughly 33% shifted towards Poles compared to BGR_IA. And many late Roman Period samples plot close and even south of BGR_IA. Considering neither the Slavs nor the Goths were pure Northern European, I don't know why a 50-55% replacement theory involving Slavs and Anatolians is so unlikely.
    Last edited by ihype02; 05-11-21 at 04:39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trojet View Post
    We should wait until the actual paper is published and see where the samples come from, along with other details.
    In this yet to be published British aDNA paper, it appears they used samples from different regions as references, so to better model genetic ancestries and migrations, because we know that one J2b-L283 actually comes from Iron Age Slovenia. And so it may be that all J2b-L283s or even E-V13s reported here come from "Central or Southeastern Europe".
    Having said that, I wouldn't be surprised if we get a rare J2b-L283 in the British Isles since the BA, but definitely not in any meaningful amount.

    Summery of ancient dna y haplogroups
    Of illyrians and daunians ( by richard rocca from anthrogenica )
    Intetesting that he dont speak on e-v13
    But up untill now not found in those ancient populations remains


    Moreso than Celts, Italics, etc. there has never been a general consensus on the possible genetic Y-DNA makeup of the Iron Age Illyrians. Between the pre-print on the Daunians and some Iron Age Slovenian samples that will be published soon by Patterson et al., it looks like they were overwhelmingly a heavily a mix of R1b/I2/J2b:

    Illyrians:
    I5689: Grofove njive, Slovenia_IA (750-400 BC) I2a1b1a1b1a1a
    I5690: Grofove njive, Slovenia_IA (750-400 BC) R1b1a1b1a1a2b1-U152>L2
    I5691: Kapiteljska njive, Novo mesto, Slovenia_IA (787-544 BC) J2b2a1a1a
    I5696: Obrežje, Slovenia_IA (401-208 BC) R1b1a1b1a1a2b1-U152>L2
    (I do realize this may also be a mix of Venetics or even Celts here with the L2 samples)

    Daunians:
    ORD011: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (650 - 625 BC) R1b-P312
    ORD006: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (770-476 calBCE) R1b-M269
    SGR002: San Giovanni Rotondo (591-415 calBCE) R1b-M269+Z2013+
    SAL001: Salapia (1235-1048 calBCE) J2b-M241
    SAL010: Salapia (9th-3rd c. BC) J2b-M241
    ORD014: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (570-408 calBCE) J2b2-L283
    ORD019: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (5th c. BC) I2d-Z2093/Y3670
    SAL011: Salapia (313-206 calBCE) I2d-M223

    The same mix of R1b/I2/J2b was also found in the Maros Culture samples from Mokrin, Serbia dated to 2100–1800 cal BC:

    Serbia EBA
    122E: I2a1b
    163: J2b
    211: I2a1b
    220: R1b1a2a2c1
    225: R1b1a2a2c1
    243: BT (low quality)
    257: R1b1a2a2c1a1
    260: I2a2a1a2a2
    282: BT (low quality)
    295: I2a1a
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    https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/com...group-e1b-v13/

    * Iberian samples of the Visigothic period in Spain show up to 25% E1b-V13 samples, with a mixture of haplogroups including local and foreign lineages, as well as some more E1b-V13 samples later during the Muslim period. Out of the two E1b samples from Longobards in Amorim et al. (2018), only SZ18 from Szólád (ca. AD 412-604) is within E1b-V13, in a very specific early branch (SNP M35.2), further locating the expansion of hg. E1b-V13 near the Danube. Samples of haplogroup J (maybe J2a) or G2a among Germanic tribes (and possibly in Poland’s Roman Iron Age / Early Middle Ages) are impossible to compare with early Hungarian ones without precise subclades.

    "Y-chromosome haplogroups are, in those cases, useful for ascertaining a more recent origin of the population. Like the finding of certain R1a-Z645, I2a-L621 & N-L392 lineages among Hungarians shows a recent origin near the Trans-Urals forest-steppes, or the finding of I1, R1b-U106 & E1b-V13 among Visigoths shows a recent origin near the Danube, the finding of Early Slavs (ca. AD 6th-7th c.) originally with small elite groups of hg. R1a-M458 & E1b-V13 from the Lower/Middle Danube – if strengthened with more Early Slavic samples, with Slavonic partially expanding as a lingua franca in some regions – is not necessarily representative of the Proto-Slavic community, just as it is clearly not representative of the later expansion of Slavic dialects."

    Riverman which study shows E-V13 in 6th century Slavs?



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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Summery of ancient dna y haplogroups
    Of illyrians and daunians ( by richard rocca from anthrogenica )
    Intetesting that he dont speak on e-v13
    But up untill now not found in those ancient populations remains

    Moreso than Celts, Italics, etc. there has never been a general consensus on the possible genetic Y-DNA makeup of the Iron Age Illyrians. Between the pre-print on the Daunians and some Iron Age Slovenian samples that will be published soon by Patterson et al., it looks like they were overwhelmingly a heavily a mix of R1b/I2/J2b:
    Illyrians:
    I5689: Grofove njive, Slovenia_IA (750-400 BC) I2a1b1a1b1a1a
    I5690: Grofove njive, Slovenia_IA (750-400 BC) R1b1a1b1a1a2b1-U152>L2
    I5691: Kapiteljska njive, Novo mesto, Slovenia_IA (787-544 BC) J2b2a1a1a
    I5696: Obrežje, Slovenia_IA (401-208 BC) R1b1a1b1a1a2b1-U152>L2
    (I do realize this may also be a mix of Venetics or even Celts here with the L2 samples)
    Daunians:
    ORD011: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (650 - 625 BC) R1b-P312
    ORD006: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (770-476 calBCE) R1b-M269
    SGR002: San Giovanni Rotondo (591-415 calBCE) R1b-M269+Z2013+
    SAL001: Salapia (1235-1048 calBCE) J2b-M241
    SAL010: Salapia (9th-3rd c. BC) J2b-M241
    ORD014: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (570-408 calBCE) J2b2-L283
    ORD019: Herdonia, Ordona Scatola (5th c. BC) I2d-Z2093/Y3670
    SAL011: Salapia (313-206 calBCE) I2d-M223
    The same mix of R1b/I2/J2b was also found in the Maros Culture samples from Mokrin, Serbia dated to 2100–1800 cal BC:
    Serbia EBA
    122E: I2a1b
    163: J2b
    211: I2a1b
    220: R1b1a2a2c1
    225: R1b1a2a2c1
    243: BT (low quality)
    257: R1b1a2a2c1a1
    260: I2a2a1a2a2
    282: BT (low quality)
    295: I2a1a

    what about the earlier G2a in the same area as per the August 2021 paper

    Freilich et al. (2021) analysed seven samples from the Middle Neolithic Sopot culture in northeastern Croatia, three of which belonged to G2a (two G-PF3147 and one G-U1>L13>Z2022).

    south of the slovenian samples you noted
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    For starters almost half of the Greeks in Macedonia hail from Asia Minor due to the population exchanges. So there is more than 50% popopulation replacement to begin with. So I wonder wether people who estimate that Greek Macedonians have 40 % Slavic ancestry or something of the sort, actually realise that they are insinuating that Greek Macedonians were 80% Slav prior to the population exchanges. And 50% Slav means that the Greeks of Macedonia are pure Slavs.

    That said, overall the Greeks of Asia Minor must have brought a lot of old genes back to Macedonia.
    If you're talking about the paper by the Greek scientist about the Peloponnese, the people were very carefully sampled so that ONLY those elderly people with all four grandparents born before the exchange were included, so there would be no effect of Greeks brought from Asia Minor in the population exchange.

    You'd have to go back and check what the study parameters were for the Macedonia/Thessaly area.


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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    what about the earlier G2a in the same area as per the August 2021 paper
    Freilich et al. (2021) analysed seven samples from the Middle Neolithic Sopot culture in northeastern Croatia, three of which belonged to G2a (two G-PF3147 and one G-U1>L13>Z2022).
    south of the slovenian samples you noted
    Isn't G2 more neolithic farmers signiture
    Rather than illyrians which came thousand
    Year later ...
    But i agree it can also be present among them to some extent
    you should mention it to richard rocca
    I am not a member in anthrogenica banned years ago i just found a way to look at the site
    In translated form so if i see interesting posts
    Or new dna papers from there i post here in eupedia great site

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Maybe E-V13 is essentially Thracian in origin. The Slavic migration pulled Thracians south in great numbers. Also many Peloponnesians have origin from other Mainland parts. 40% of Peloponnese population was resettled from Venetians in 18th/17th century. This could've happened in history many times but in lower numbers sure.
    Jives with the Kingdom of Vlachs and Bulgarians in North and Central Greece suddenly appearing in the early Middle Ages (10th century). I don't buy the "Vlachs are indigenous Macedonians/Greeks" line, at least not in the majority.

    The Byzantines were even calling these people Dacians, in part from their desire to see demographics and geography through a Classical lens, but also from a real understanding that they had come from further north. Kekavmenos, the Armenian historian called the Vlachs "Dacia and Vesi" who were expelled from the Danube region because they were bandits. We know that they were also more widespread than they currently are in Macedonia and Thessaly, as I think they were in Chalkidiki in the 11th Century. So they likely contributed heavily to Greek and Bulgarian genepool. There are also fuzzy accounts of Vlachs being part of these "Slavic" military democracies on their original assault and settlement of Macedonia, if I am not mistaken. Problem is, we have still such a weak understanding of the genetics of the Thracians, who Herodotus, if I am not mistaken, considered the most numerous people in the world after the Indians. As said before, that Bronze Age "Thracian" looked Tuscan , did it not? We did get an R1a Thracian, but he was some Iranic (Scythian?) clade too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    Isn't G2 more neolithic farmers signiture
    Rather than illyrians which came thousand
    Year later ...
    But i agree it can also be present among them to some extent
    you should mention it to richard rocca
    I am not a member in anthrogenica banned years ago i just found a way to look at the site
    In translated form so if i see interesting posts
    Or new dna papers from there i post here in eupedia great site
    G2a on the Croatian paper was found within the context of Encrusted Pottery Culture, so far this culture which was descended from Neolithics, have G2a in the Croatia and I2a in Hungary.

    This culture on its own was different from Illyrian or Proto-Illyrian material culture. If and only if they contributed to Illyrians during Late Bronze Age, they did it in a mixed form with HugelgraberKultur.

    As for Rocca, he is slightly more sophisticated version of torzio lol.

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    @Ihype,

    Please provide data constituting proof of the following:

    Originally Posted by ihype02

    Maybe E-V13 is essentially Thracian in origin. The Slavic migration pulled Thracians south in great numbers. Also many Peloponnesians have origin from other Mainland parts. 40% of Peloponnese population was resettled from Venetians in 18th/17th century. This could've happened in history many times but in lower numbers sure.

    I thought it had been made abundantly clear that unsupported assertions would not go unchallenged here.

    I'd like you, in that regard, to show me all the U-152 and U-106 and some I1 in the Peloponnese which would certainly be present if 40% of the population were of Venetian descent.

    I guess I have to remind you all again that this isn't theapricity or some Albanian language site; you don't get to make up your own facts here.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotokopoulos View Post
    Jives with the Kingdom of Vlachs and Bulgarians in North and Central Greece suddenly appearing in the early Middle Ages (10th century). I don't buy the "Vlachs are indigenous Macedonians/Greeks" line, at least not in the majority.

    The Byzantines were even calling these people Dacians, in part from their desire to see demographics and geography through a Classical lens, but also from a real understanding that they had come from further north. Kekavmenos, the Armenian historian called the Vlachs "Dacia and Vesi" who were expelled from the Danube region because they were bandits. We know that they were also more widespread than they currently are in Macedonia and Thessaly, as I think they were in Chalkidiki in the 11th Century. So they likely contributed heavily to Greek and Bulgarian genepool. There are also fuzzy accounts of Vlachs being part of these "Slavic" military democracies on their original assault and settlement of Macedonia, if I am not mistaken. Problem is, we have still such a weak understanding of the genetics of the Thracians, who Herodotus, if I am not mistaken, considered the most numerous people in the world after the Indians. As said before, that Bronze Age "Thracian" looked Tuscan , did it not? We did get an R1a Thracian, but he was some Iranic (Scythian?) clade too.
    We need many more ancient DNA sample from the Thrace area during different eras. Remember that the Macedons before the 4th century were a rather small kingdom. They expand greatly through alliances, marriages and conquests.It helped greatly that both Sparta and Athens were very weak because of all the wars.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Ihype,

    Please provide data constituting proof of the following:

    Originally Posted by ihype02

    Maybe E-V13 is essentially Thracian in origin. The Slavic migration pulled Thracians south in great numbers. Also many Peloponnesians have origin from other Mainland parts. 40% of Peloponnese population was resettled from Venetians in 18th/17th century. This could've happened in history many times but in lower numbers sure.

    I thought it had been made abundantly clear that unsupported assertions would not go unchallenged here.

    I'd like you, in that regard, to show me all the U-152 and U-106 and some I1 in the Peloponnese which would certainly be present if 40% of the population were of Venetian descent.

    I guess I have to remind you all again that this isn't theapricity or some Albanian language site; you don't get to make up your own facts here.


    40% of population of Peloponnese population was resettled from (not with) Venetians BUT mostly from other mainland parts. Some few Venetians did settle though.

    "Already in 1688, with their control of the country practically complete, the Venetians appointed Giacomo Corner as the governor-general (provveditore generale) of the Morea to administer their new territory. The task he faced was daunting, as the population had fled from the coming of war: 656 out of 2,115 villages were deserted, almost all the Muslim population had abandoned the peninsula for lands still in Ottoman hands, while even towns like Patras, which numbered 25,000 inhabitants before the war, now had 1,615 left. Apart from the region of Corinthia and the autonomous Mani Peninsula, the Venetians counted only 86,468 inhabitants in 1688, out of an estimated pre-war population of 200,000.[6][7] Other sources, however, like the Englishman Bernard Randolph, who lived in Greece in 1671–1679, assessed the population of the Morea at the time at 120,000, of which one quarter Muslim and the rest Christian. This is commensurate with the attested demographic decline across the Ottoman Empire in the 17th century, and the demands made by the Ottoman government on the peninsula's resources during the long Cretan War.[8]
    According to the first census conducted by the Venetians, there were 86,468 people in the peninsula compared to a pre-war population of around 200,000.[72] Although the Venetians managed to restore some prosperity – the population allegedly rose to some 250,000 by 1708, probably driven by immigration[72] – they failed to win the trust of their Greek Orthodox subjects, who were used to a relative autonomy under the Turks and resented the Venetian bureaucracy."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morean_War

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    @Ihype,

    Please provide data constituting proof of the following:

    Originally Posted by ihype02

    Maybe E-V13 is essentially Thracian in origin. The Slavic migration pulled Thracians south in great numbers. Also many Peloponnesians have origin from other Mainland parts. 40% of Peloponnese population was resettled from Venetians in 18th/17th century. This could've happened in history many times but in lower numbers sure.

    I thought it had been made abundantly clear that unsupported assertions would not go unchallenged here.

    I'd like you, in that regard, to show me all the U-152 and U-106 and some I1 in the Peloponnese which would certainly be present if 40% of the population were of Venetian descent.

    I guess I have to remind you all again that this isn't theapricity or some Albanian language site; you don't get to make up your own facts here.


    There is no historical info to back that up. There was a substantial Venetian population in Crete and possibly in Naflio and Koroni but evacuated along with some Greek families to Venice when The Ottomans conquered Greece. Some Arbereshe that were given lands around the castles in exchange for guarding them evacuated along with them to Calabria and Sicily.
    BTW, I was contacted by an Italian family originally from Venice who traced their descent to a Greek family that evacuated with the Venetians from Crete. Since we shared a substantial amount of autosomal DNA they were asking if I was somehow related to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    There is no historical info to back that up. There was a substantial Venetian population in Crete and possibly in Naflio and Koroni but evacuated along with some Greek families to Venice when The Ottomans conquered Greece. Some Arbereshe that were given lands around the castles in exchange for guarding them evacuated along with them to Calabria and Sicily.
    BTW, I was contacted by an Italian family originally from Venice who traced their descent to a Greek family that evacuated with the Venetians from Crete. Since we shared a substantial amount of autosomal DNA they were asking if I was somehow related to them.
    Apart from Italy , the only place where Venetian families ( ie wives and children )resided in their colonies was in Crete ( or as the Venetians called it Candia ) from 1204 to 1669.

    I am interested in the surname of that family .

    My grandmother family also has a church in Crete named after her surname .................her surname was one of the 26 founding surnames of Venice

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    There is no historical info to back that up. There was a substantial Venetian population in Crete and possibly in Naflio and Koroni but evacuated along with some Greek families to Venice when The Ottomans conquered Greece. Some Arbereshe that were given lands around the castles in exchange for guarding them evacuated along with them to Calabria and Sicily.
    BTW, I was contacted by an Italian family originally from Venice who traced their descent to a Greek family that evacuated with the Venetians from Crete. Since we shared a substantial amount of autosomal DNA they were asking if I was somehow related to them.
    That's what I figured.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    40% of population of Peloponnese population was resettled from (not with) Venetians BUT mostly from other mainland parts. Some few Venetians did settle though.

    "Already in 1688, with their control of the country practically complete, the Venetians appointed Giacomo Corner as the governor-general (provveditore generale) of the Morea to administer their new territory. The task he faced was daunting, as the population had fled from the coming of war: 656 out of 2,115 villages were deserted, almost all the Muslim population had abandoned the peninsula for lands still in Ottoman hands, while even towns like Patras, which numbered 25,000 inhabitants before the war, now had 1,615 left. Apart from the region of Corinthia and the autonomous Mani Peninsula, the Venetians counted only 86,468 inhabitants in 1688, out of an estimated pre-war population of 200,000.[6][7] Other sources, however, like the Englishman Bernard Randolph, who lived in Greece in 1671–1679, assessed the population of the Morea at the time at 120,000, of which one quarter Muslim and the rest Christian. This is commensurate with the attested demographic decline across the Ottoman Empire in the 17th century, and the demands made by the Ottoman government on the peninsula's resources during the long Cretan War.[8]


    According to the first census conducted by the Venetians, there were 86,468 people in the peninsula compared to a pre-war population of around 200,000.[72] Although the Venetians managed to restore some prosperity – the population allegedly rose to some 250,000 by 1708, probably driven by immigration[72] – they failed to win the trust of their Greek Orthodox subjects, who were used to a relative autonomy under the Turks and resented the Venetian bureaucracy."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morean_War

    which part of the Morea ( it means the Peloponnese )

    argos ?

    In 1395 Argos was raided by the Ottomans and the Venetians repopulated the town by bringing in Albanians. The light cavalry of the Venetian army was made up of stradiotti, Albanian mercenaries, known for their unorthodox tactics and cruelty. In 1463 the Venetians surrendered Argos, but they were able to retain control of Nauplia until 1540.
    The Ottomans did not care to upgrade the fortifications of Argos to the new requirements brought about by the development of cannon. In 1686 they preferred to abandon the fortress to concentrate their troops in the defence of Nauplia, which was besieged by the Venetians.

    During their occupation of Morea (Peloponnese) in 1686-1715 the Venetians embarked on a large program aimed at strengthening old fortresses e.g. those of Methoni and Koroni and building new ones e.g. that of Palamidi near Nauplia, but they did not significantly upgrade the fortress of Argo, nor did the Ottomans when they recaptured it, probably because it lacked access to a source of water.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    We need many more ancient DNA sample from the Thrace area during different eras. Remember that the Macedons before the 4th century were a rather small kingdom. They expand greatly through alliances, marriages and conquests.It helped greatly that both Sparta and Athens were very weak because of all the wars.
    I think it's mixed Slavs, Thracians, Arvanites and some other Balkanites feeling the Barbarian inclusions.
    Cretans have only 6% E-V13, which is less than Slavic R1a in Crete, which might suggest that Arvanites probably gave it a bust in Peloponnese in late Middle Ages. Bulgarians have more I2a and R1a than E-V13, so E-V13 cannot be essentially Slavic, even though it might appear only during the Middle Ages.

    It is not definitely Classical Peloponnesian though, at least not mostly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    40% of population of Peloponnese population was resettled from (not with) Venetians BUT mostly from other mainland parts. Some few Venetians did settle though.

    "Already in 1688, with their control of the country practically complete, the Venetians appointed Giacomo Corner as the governor-general (provveditore generale) of the Morea to administer their new territory. The task he faced was daunting, as the population had fled from the coming of war: 656 out of 2,115 villages were deserted, almost all the Muslim population had abandoned the peninsula for lands still in Ottoman hands, while even towns like Patras, which numbered 25,000 inhabitants before the war, now had 1,615 left. Apart from the region of Corinthia and the autonomous Mani Peninsula, the Venetians counted only 86,468 inhabitants in 1688, out of an estimated pre-war population of 200,000.[6][7] Other sources, however, like the Englishman Bernard Randolph, who lived in Greece in 1671–1679, assessed the population of the Morea at the time at 120,000, of which one quarter Muslim and the rest Christian. This is commensurate with the attested demographic decline across the Ottoman Empire in the 17th century, and the demands made by the Ottoman government on the peninsula's resources during the long Cretan War.[8]
    According to the first census conducted by the Venetians, there were 86,468 people in the peninsula compared to a pre-war population of around 200,000.[72] Although the Venetians managed to restore some prosperity – the population allegedly rose to some 250,000 by 1708, probably driven by immigration[72] – they failed to win the trust of their Greek Orthodox subjects, who were used to a relative autonomy under the Turks and resented the Venetian bureaucracy."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morean_War
    I don't find that paragraph in the article you cite. I find it here:
    Kingdom of the Morea - Wikipedia

    It's no wonder, as the "editors" are constantly playing with that first article.

    What you didn't include is the remainder of the paragraph...

    "Already in 1688, with their control of the country practically complete, the Venetians appointed Giacomo Corner as the governor-general (provveditore generale) of the Morea to administer their new territory. The task he faced was daunting, as the population had fled from the coming of war: 656 out of 2,115 villages were deserted, almost all the Muslim population had abandoned the peninsula for lands still in Ottoman hands, while even towns like Patras, which numbered 25,000 inhabitants before the war, now had 1,615 left. APART from the region of Corinthia and the autonomous Mani Peninsula, the Venetians counted only 86,468 inhabitants in 1688, out of an estimated pre-war population of 200,000.[6][7] Other sources, however, like the Englishman Bernard Randolph, who lived in Greece in 1671–1679, assessed the population of the Morea at the time at 120,000, of which one quarter Muslim and the rest Christian. This is commensurate with the attested demographic decline across the Ottoman Empire in the 17th century, and the demands made by the Ottoman government on the peninsula's resources during the long Cretan War.[8]

    This is in no way "proof" of your statement. The 200,000 figure is highly questionable. It doesn't include Corinthia or Mani, and there was no CENSUS, only an estimate for the pre-war population.

    If I had been a Greek living in the area at the time, I would have fled, yes, and hid in the Mani or other areas.

    Indeed, in other parts of the article mention is made of migration into the Peloponnese. However, please take a look at what happened to those people.
    "To restore the province, settlers were encouraged to immigrate from the other Greek lands with the lure of considerable land grants, chiefly from Attica but also from other parts of Central Greece, especially the areas that suffered during the war. 2,000 Cretans, and also Catholic Chians, Venetian citizens from the Ionian Islands and even some Bulgarians answered this call. In addition, mention is made of 1,317 Muslim families that remained behind, converted to Christianity and were given lands or enterprises as concessions. As a result of these policies, the population recovered rapidly: apart from Mani, the Venetian registers record 97,118 inhabitants in 1691, 116,000 a year later and 176,844 by 1700. Due to the relative privileges granted the urban population, the period was also marked by an influx of the agrarian population to the cities.[10][17][18]"

    '
    the Venetian period was marked by intense social mobility. Although in general both the original inhabitants and the new settlers remained in the social class to which they had belonged originally, the policies of the Venetian authorities with their continual land grants to their supporters—including the hereditary quasi-fiefs known as conteas ("countships")—coupled with the economic upturn, brought about the emergence, for the first time after the disbandment of the Christian sipahis of the Peloponnese in the early 1570s, of a new affluent class of merchants and land-holders, many of whom were from Athens, Chios and the Ionian islands. According to the Greek historian Apostolos Vakalopoulos, here lies the origin of the oligarchy of the kodjabashis, who dominated the peninsula's affairs from the late 18th century until the Greek War of Independence.[23][24] By contrast, for the mass of the peasants, both natives and immigrants, the situation progressively worsened; whether due to debts, transgressions of officials, the exactions of corvée or the increasing scarcity of land, many peasants, especially those who had migrated from Central Greece, chose to flee to the Ottoman-held territories across the Gulf of Corinth. They were welcomed by the Ottoman authorities, while the Venetian authorities were forced to institute military patrols to stop them.[25] This demonstrates a deepening gulf in Moreot society: when the Turks returned in 1715, the bulk of the population remained unaffected, and only the better-off such as the contea possessors actively supported Venice, and in many cases abandoned the peninsula for Italy following the Venetian defeat.[26]


    So, your statement is in fact contradicted by the available evidence, and worse, is actually very misleading. I see absolutely no evidence for a 40% replacement in the Peloponnese.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I don't find that paragraph in the article you cite. I find it here:
    Kingdom of the Morea - Wikipedia

    It's no wonder, as the "editors" are constantly playing with that first article.

    What you didn't include is the remainder of the paragraph...

    "Already in 1688, with their control of the country practically complete, the Venetians appointed Giacomo Corner as the governor-general (provveditore generale) of the Morea to administer their new territory. The task he faced was daunting, as the population had fled from the coming of war: 656 out of 2,115 villages were deserted, almost all the Muslim population had abandoned the peninsula for lands still in Ottoman hands, while even towns like Patras, which numbered 25,000 inhabitants before the war, now had 1,615 left. APART from the region of Corinthia and the autonomous Mani Peninsula, the Venetians counted only 86,468 inhabitants in 1688, out of an estimated pre-war population of 200,000.[6][7] Other sources, however, like the Englishman Bernard Randolph, who lived in Greece in 1671–1679, assessed the population of the Morea at the time at 120,000, of which one quarter Muslim and the rest Christian. This is commensurate with the attested demographic decline across the Ottoman Empire in the 17th century, and the demands made by the Ottoman government on the peninsula's resources during the long Cretan War.[8]

    This is in no way "proof" of your statement. The 200,000 figure is highly questionable. It doesn't include Corinthia or Mani, and there was no CENSUS, only an estimate for the pre-war population.

    If I had been a Greek living in the area at the time, I would have fled, yes, and hid in the Mani or other areas.

    Indeed, in other parts of the article mention is made of migration into the Peloponnese. However, please take a look at what happened to those people.
    "To restore the province, settlers were encouraged to immigrate from the other Greek lands with the lure of considerable land grants, chiefly from Attica but also from other parts of Central Greece, especially the areas that suffered during the war. 2,000 Cretans, and also Catholic Chians, Venetian citizens from the Ionian Islands and even some Bulgarians answered this call. In addition, mention is made of 1,317 Muslim families that remained behind, converted to Christianity and were given lands or enterprises as concessions. As a result of these policies, the population recovered rapidly: apart from Mani, the Venetian registers record 97,118 inhabitants in 1691, 116,000 a year later and 176,844 by 1700. Due to the relative privileges granted the urban population, the period was also marked by an influx of the agrarian population to the cities.[10][17][18]"

    '
    the Venetian period was marked by intense social mobility. Although in general both the original inhabitants and the new settlers remained in the social class to which they had belonged originally, the policies of the Venetian authorities with their continual land grants to their supporters—including the hereditary quasi-fiefs known as conteas ("countships")—coupled with the economic upturn, brought about the emergence, for the first time after the disbandment of the Christian sipahis of the Peloponnese in the early 1570s, of a new affluent class of merchants and land-holders, many of whom were from Athens, Chios and the Ionian islands. According to the Greek historian Apostolos Vakalopoulos, here lies the origin of the oligarchy of the kodjabashis, who dominated the peninsula's affairs from the late 18th century until the Greek War of Independence.[23][24] By contrast, for the mass of the peasants, both natives and immigrants, the situation progressively worsened; whether due to debts, transgressions of officials, the exactions of corvée or the increasing scarcity of land, many peasants, especially those who had migrated from Central Greece, chose to flee to the Ottoman-held territories across the Gulf of Corinth. They were welcomed by the Ottoman authorities, while the Venetian authorities were forced to institute military patrols to stop them.[25] This demonstrates a deepening gulf in Moreot society: when the Turks returned in 1715, the bulk of the population remained unaffected, and only the better-off such as the contea possessors actively supported Venice, and in many cases abandoned the peninsula for Italy following the Venetian defeat.[26]


    So, your statement is in fact contradicted by the available evidence, and worse, is actually very misleading. I see absolutely no evidence for a 40% replacement in the Peloponnese.
    The 40% was given by me, taking in consideration the population of Mani, Corinthia and birthrates by natives.
    I did include the quote saying that Mani and Corinthia were not included in the census. It was a rapid increase within 20 years form 98,000 (excluding Mani) to allegedly 250,000 (too high). However the data given by Venetians is questionable that is why I lowered it to 40%.
    I did not know some Greeks went back to Central Greece. But still it proves a significant percentage that came from other mainland whenever it was 40% or not.

    Venetians did settle Albanians from Attica in Corinthia to repopulate the region, so it probably did not have a large population.

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    As I said, your conclusion is questionable at best, misleading at worst.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As I said, your conclusion is questionable at best, misleading at worst.
    Central Greek migration (expect for Attica and Boeotia) would decrease the Albanian numbers in Peloponnese though. Albanians were a significant minority in 15th century Peloponnese.

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