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Thread: Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Thessaloniki was a Metropolitan Centre that probably attracted many Anatolians, Anatolia to Eastern Roman Empire was like Italy to Western Roman Empire. The Macedonians of G25 are from an official paper. They all have their grandparents, Macedonians, prior to population exchange. Modern Macedonians are roughly 33% shifted towards Poles compared to BGR_IA. And many late Roman Period samples plot close and even south of BGR_IA. Considering neither the Slavs nor the Goths were pure Northern European, I don't know why a 50-55% replacement theory involving Slavs and Anatolians is so unlikely.
    Anatolia had its own metropolitan centers. If anything, Thessalonica may have attracted people from other parts of mainland Greece, and why not the islands. Besides, if any Anatolians settled in Thessalonica I suppose they would be from adjecent areas like Thrace/Constantinople or Ionia. People who genetically were similar to IA Aegeans, like the people were from Macedonia prior to the Slavic migrations. So while there has been influx, I would not be so keen in regarding it as population replacement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Anatolia had its own metropolitan centers. If anything, Thessalonica may have attracted people from other parts of mainland Greece, and why not the islands. Besides, if any Anatolians settled in Thessalonica I suppose they would be from adjecent areas like Thrace/Constantinople or Ionia. People who genetically were similar to IA Aegeans, like the people were from Macedonia prior to the Slavic migrations. So while there has been influx, I would not be so keen in regarding it as acomponent of population replacement. The Slavs are however.

    On that note, did anyone emphasize that the people from the Danubian basin were very similar to IA Aegeans. I am saying this because the Macedonians were claimed by some Balkan peoples. Yet, even the IA Danubians are a closer match to modern Greeks, then to most people in the Balkans.
    35% Northern input and 5% Anatolian is the bare minimum in Macedonia. As well as at least 20% Slavic in Peloponnese.
    Don't except anything lower than that if you don't want to be disappointed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    35% Northern input and 5% Anatolian is the bare minimum in Macedonia. As well as at least 20% Slavic in Peloponnese.
    Don't except anything lower than that if you don't want to be disappointed.
    If you ask me even 30 Slavic admixture in mainland Greeks is quite moderate. The percentages of the mainland may or may not be true, but at the same time they are quite misleading. This is because for starters, the largest metropolitan centers (Athens and Thessalonica) have attracted Greeks from all areas in the Greek world. Half the population of Athens may be from places like the Islands, Asia Minor, Alexandria and the like. Places were the Slavic admix was much lower. Macedonia likewise has many Greeks from Asia Minor. Then most diaspora Greeks (which number in the millions) in North America or Australia are islanders or refugees from Asia Minor. It goes without saying 200 years ago, only less than half of all Greeks lived in the mainland. So taking that into consideration the average Slavic admixture in the Greek genepool, if we suppose that this research is right, would be much less.

    But why should anyone be dissapointed. If true, I wholeheartedly accept any admixture. It is what constitutes us. It's just that I wouldn't want to be mislead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Central Greek migration (expect for Attica and Boeotia) would decrease the Albanian numbers in Peloponnese though. Albanians were a significant minority in 15th century Peloponnese.
    I suggest you re-read the excerpt. The Central Greeks, at least the non elite majority, RETURNED to Central Greece.

    If your comments about the amount of Albanian ancestry in the Peloponnese is based on similarly shaky ground, don't expect outsiders to give it much credence.

    As for the paper on the Peloponnese, samples were not taken from Albanian villages. Also, as I pointed out above thread, only elderly people with all four grandparents from BEFORE the population exchanges were included in the data.

    This makes probably the 20TH TIME I've pointed these facts out.


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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    Apart from Italy , the only place where Venetian families ( ie wives and children )resided in their colonies was in Crete ( or as the Venetians called it Candia ) from 1204 to 1669.
    I am interested in the surname of that family .
    My grandmother family also has a church in Crete named after her surname .................her surname was one of the 26 founding surnames of Venice
    The current surname of the family is Manca but the Greek surname was Ieranò. I think they settled down in Cinquefrondi in the Reggio Calabria area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I suggest you re-read the excerpt. The Central Greeks, at least the non elite majority, RETURNED to Central Greece.

    If your comments about the amount of Albanian ancestry in the Peloponnese is based on similarly shaky ground, don't expect outsiders to give it much credence.

    As for the paper on the Peloponnese, samples were not taken from Albanian villages. Also, as I pointed out above thread, only elderly people with all four grandparents from BEFORE the population exchanges were included in the data.

    This makes probably the 20TH TIME I've pointed these facts out.
    The Albanians that were settled around the Venetian walled cities in Peloponnese to guard them pretty much followed the Venetians to Italy and settled in Calabria and Sicily. Now that does not account for any Arvanites that settled in the interior on their own or by the Ottoman Turks. I don't know of any documentation as to their numbers.

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    Yes, I know.

    Don't worry; someone will make them up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    I suggest you re-read the excerpt. The Central Greeks, at least the non elite majority, RETURNED to Central Greece.

    If your comments about the amount of Albanian ancestry in the Peloponnese is based on similarly shaky ground, don't expect outsiders to give it much credence.

    As for the paper on the Peloponnese, samples were not taken from Albanian villages. Also, as I pointed out above thread, only elderly people with all four grandparents from BEFORE the population exchanges were included in the data.

    This makes probably the 20TH TIME I've pointed these facts out.
    It says many not the majority. But it does not matter either way, let's say the majority went back. It's no big deal to me.

    The Peloponnesian paper of 2017 was garbage either way.
    And I was not talking about that paper I was talking about E-V13 being increased by northern mainlanders, which Sicilians, Calabrese and Cretans lack.
    Last edited by ihype02; 06-11-21 at 01:02.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/com...group-e1b-v13/

    * Iberian samples of the Visigothic period in Spain show up to 25% E1b-V13 samples, with a mixture of haplogroups including local and foreign lineages, as well as some more E1b-V13 samples later during the Muslim period. Out of the two E1b samples from Longobards in Amorim et al. (2018), only SZ18 from Szólád (ca. AD 412-604) is within E1b-V13, in a very specific early branch (SNP M35.2), further locating the expansion of hg. E1b-V13 near the Danube. Samples of haplogroup J (maybe J2a) or G2a among Germanic tribes (and possibly in Poland’s Roman Iron Age / Early Middle Ages) are impossible to compare with early Hungarian ones without precise subclades.

    "Y-chromosome haplogroups are, in those cases, useful for ascertaining a more recent origin of the population. Like the finding of certain R1a-Z645, I2a-L621 & N-L392 lineages among Hungarians shows a recent origin near the Trans-Urals forest-steppes, or the finding of I1, R1b-U106 & E1b-V13 among Visigoths shows a recent origin near the Danube, the finding of Early Slavs (ca. AD 6th-7th c.) originally with small elite groups of hg. R1a-M458 & E1b-V13 from the Lower/Middle Danube – if strengthened with more Early Slavic samples, with Slavonic partially expanding as a lingua franca in some regions – is not necessarily representative of the Proto-Slavic community, just as it is clearly not representative of the later expansion of Slavic dialects."

    Riverman which study shows E-V13 in 6th century Slavs?


    That's a funny question, because how many 6th century Slavic samples do we have to begin with?

    The situation is pretty similar as it is with Hittites and E-V13/Channelled Ware, or early Jastorf-Germanics - they all cremated their dead. So we are left with the ashes and some stray finds, of which don't even know for sure whether they belonged to the majority population, since the burial rite was quite strictly cremation in many these cases. So we can only make a pre- and post-comparison. Like before an archaeological package came and shift came and afterwards, when cremation ceased to be the dominant form. That's why Tollense was so interesting, if probably representing a dead end.
    Luckily for the Slavic case, they did transition in Central Europe and the Balkans quite early to inhumation in some groups, but these are all no Proto-Slavs any longer, which could have picked up other elements along the route. There are e.g. in Austria and Hungary huge Slavic cemeteries which could be tested, mass tested, to see what's the average, the outliers, the clusters and so on. Some day this material will be available hopefully.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post

    But why should anyone be dissapointed. If true, I wholeheartedly accept any admixture. It is what constitutes us. It's just that I wouldn't want to be mislead.


    Good for you. So many here seem to be emotionally invested in all this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I think it's mixed Slavs, Thracians, Arvanites and some other Balkanites feeling the Barbarian inclusions.
    Cretans have only 6% E-V13, which is less than Slavic R1a in Crete, which might suggest that Arvanites probably gave it a bust in Peloponnese in late Middle Ages. Bulgarians have more I2a and R1a than E-V13, so E-V13 cannot be essentially Slavic, even though it might appear only during the Middle Ages.

    It is not definitely Classical Peloponnesian though, at least not mostly.
    What is your source on Cretan E-V13?

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Papadimitriou View Post
    What is your source on Cretan E-V13?
    https://www.nature.com/articles/5201769/figures/2
    9 out of 168 is 5.4%

    Another study with 193 samples put all E at 8.7%.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...gion-of-origin


    Maciamo has a total collection of +500 samples so I am missing something, but it is probably around 5-7%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post



    Good for you. So many here seem to be emotionally invested in all this.
    Funny that you say that ,I've been lurking in the forum and 90% of the times I see a post of yours it has to do with Greece and I've been wondering why this guy as an Albanian is so invested in Greek stuff? are you the user laberia by any chance?kastrioti maybe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DorianTA View Post
    Funny that you say that ,I've been lurking in the forum and 90% of the times I see a post of yours it has to do with Greece and I've been wondering why this guy as an Albanian is so invested in Greek stuff? are you the user laberia by any chance?kastrioti maybe?
    90% of my posts are related with Ancient Greece and to a lesser extend Slavic migration in Balkans and a bit of Italy. That is a big difference. I am not a nationalist, in fact I acknowledge that Albanians migrated in Epirus during 12th/13th century and that most J2a in Tosks came from assimilated Greeks.


    Parapolitikos has been flying around saying J2b came with Gheg invasions, but when I talk about E-V13 in Peloponnese or Venetian population control I get investigated. Which are both facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    90% of my posts are related with Ancient Greece and to a lesser extend Slavic migration in Balkans and a bit of Italy. That is a big difference. I am not a nationalist, in fact I acknowledge that Albanians migrated in Epirus during 12th/13th century and that most J2a in Tosks came from assimilated Greeks.


    Parapolitikos has been flying around saying J2b came with Gheg invasions, but when I talk about E-V13 in Peloponnese or Venetian population control I get investigated. Which are both facts.
    Ok my bad then I misunderstood you. My reply wasn't because of the haplo discussions but since you mention it I'll just say that for Cretans it seems E-V13 is on a gradient from west to east and correlates with the autosomal gradient that was mentioned in the Crete study.

    (Can't post links yet ,check the eupedia thread "Y-DNA-haplogroups-of-Greeks-by-region-of-origin")
    there was this chart somewhere

    imgur . com / OtZBAUX.png

    Most likely it's the result of medieval expansions of Eastern Peloponnesians in Crete , I have no idea what is it's deeper origin and If it's wholly from Arvanites or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I think it's mixed Slavs, Thracians, Arvanites and some other Balkanites feeling the Barbarian inclusions.
    Cretans have only 6% E-V13, which is less than Slavic R1a in Crete, which might suggest that Arvanites probably gave it a bust in Peloponnese in late Middle Ages. Bulgarians have more I2a and R1a than E-V13, so E-V13 cannot be essentially Slavic, even though it might appear only during the Middle Ages.

    It is not definitely Classical Peloponnesian though, at least not mostly.
    That's possible, but why isn't there any similar proportion of j2b in the Peloponnesus? I mean, I don't know if I have ever seen any. As opposed to Greek Epirus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotokopoulos View Post
    That's possible, but why isn't there any similar proportion of j2b in the Peloponnesus? I mean, I don't know if I have ever seen any. As opposed to Greek Epirus.
    I said they boosted it a little bit from say (15%-20%) pre-Arvanite period to (20%-25%). Like 5 points with a bit of male bias.
    There is J2b in Peloponnese like 5% from what I have seen. Tosks themselves have less of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    I said they boosted it a little bit from say (15%-20%) pre-Arvanite period to (20%-25%). Like 5 points with a bit of male bias.
    There is J2b in Peloponnese like 5% from what I have seen. Tosks themselves have less of it.
    Ah, ok. I could go along with that, at least until we find more data. I am EV-13 myself and half Peloponnesian. I assumed I might have Arvanite ancestry for years, but I have no matches with Albania or Kosovo or anywhere in the Balkans for that matter, but a lot of with Sicily, South Italy, Asia Minor, and Cyprus. I would assume there should be a lot more Greeks with matches in Albania, unless they are hiding their results, which is possible. But Greeks with clear Arvanite surnames and heritage always match nicely with Albanians.

    As for Venetians, I think they have a bit more influence than people want to admit. But I can't say for sure. Many Venetians (and many 10's of thousands Albanians with them) left for Italy. But of course Venetians never left Ionian Islands, and their remnants are in other places too, like Syros, where slight majority of the population is Catholic nowadays. And the Kolokotronis family tree DNA project found the hero of Greek War of Independence was I1 and he was from the Morea. So who knows?
    Last edited by Theotokopoulos; 06-11-21 at 04:51.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotokopoulos View Post
    Ah, ok. I could go along with that, at least until we find more data. I am EV-13 myself and half Peloponnesian. I assumed I might have Arvanite ancestry for years, but I have no matches with Albania or Kosovo or anywhere in the Balkans for that matter, but a lot of with Sicily, South Italy, Asia Minor, and Cyprus. I would assume there should be a lot more Greeks with matches in Albania, unless they are hiding their results, which is possible. But Greeks with clear Arvanite surnames and heritage always match nicely with Albanians.

    As for Venetians, I think they have a bit more influence than people want to admit. But I can't say for sure. Many Venetians (and many 10's of thousands Albanians with them) left for Italy. But of course Venetians never left Ionian Islands, and their remnants are in other places too, like Syros, where slight majority of the population is Catholic nowadays. And the Kolokotronis family tree DNA project found the hero of Greek War of Independence was I1 and he was from the Morea. So who knows?

    The only place I see albanians in the Morea is in Argos and Corinth ............and they came from attica region in Greece

    Are you referring to the albanians leaving albania for Italy in the 16th century ?

    Nauplia
    Key dates:
    1204 The region is acquired by French families (de la Roche/Enghien).
    1388 The Venetians buy the fortress.
    1540 The Venetians surrender Nauplia to the Ottomans.
    1686 The Venetians return to Nauplia.
    1715 The Ottomans invade the region and seize the fortress.


    Argos
    Key dates:
    1204 The region is acquired by French families (de la Roche/Enghien).
    1388 The Venetians buy the fortress.
    1463 The Ottomans conquer Argo.
    1686 The Venetians return to Argo.
    1714 The Ottomans invade the region and seize the fortress.

    Corinth
    Key dates:
    VIth century: the Byzantines strengthen the citadel of the ancient town
    1147-1150 The Normans of Roger II seize and sack the town; the Venetians help the Byzantines to regain its control
    1210 The fortress is assigned to the Frank rulers of Peloponnesus
    1403 The Byzantine Despots of Morea conquer the fortress with Venetian help
    1458 Sultan Mehmet II conquers Corinth and the Despotate of Morea
    1687-1715 The Venetians occupy Corinth ..................only time it was under Venice


    Venetians stopped hiring Albanian cavalry just after the year 1500 ......................Albanians then went under the kingdom of Naples and some under the french king


    There is no albanians I can see in the west ..............nor south in Maina ( mani peninsula)
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather paternal mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

    "Fear profits man, nothing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsnake49 View Post
    The current surname of the family is Manca but the Greek surname was Ieranò. I think they settled down in Cinquefrondi in the Reggio Calabria area.
    it is originally a Sardinian surname

    Il cognome Manca è panitaliano, ma specifico della Sardegna e del sud Italia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theotokopoulos View Post
    That's possible, but why isn't there any similar proportion of j2b in the Peloponnesus? I mean, I don't know if I have ever seen any. As opposed to Greek Epirus.
    So you don't get confused in the future, it's not that the dude is Albanian nationalist, it has more to do with making E-V13 a Middle Age phenomena which some non E-V13 Albanians are heavily promoting, of course disfavoring this Y-DNA (on their own worldview).

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    trojet
    you might have a point
    that part of those j2b might be from
    other places than britain
    same can apply for the 3-4 e-v13 cases



    I can't say I expected this, but huge discovery nevertheless. We still don't know for sure from when and where are these two samples, but judging by these results my bet would be Hallstatt & Slovenia (or somewhere very near Slovenia). Y86930 TMRCA is ~800 BC!


    I23911; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930>FT115799

    Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (3G)

    Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (5T); Z38240- C>T (4C)

    Z38241 level: *no calls*

    PH1602 level: *no calls*

    Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (4T)

    FT115799 level: FT115799+ C>A (1A)





    I24638; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930>FT115799

    Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (5G); CTS9215+ C>T (4T-2C)

    Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (7T); Z38240- C>T (2C)

    Z38241 level: Z38241+ T>C (5C)

    PH1602 level: *no calls*

    Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (5T)

    FT115799 level: FT115799+ C>A (1A)




    I24882; J2b2a1a1a1b-Y15058>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>Y86930 (xFT115799)

    Y15058 level: Y15058/Z34462+ C>G (7G); CTS9215+ C>T (2T)

    Z38240 level: FT92472+ A>T (9T); Z38240- C>T (5C)

    Z38241 level: Z38241+ T>C (4C)

    PH1602 level: *no calls*

    Y86930 level: Y86930+ C>T (9T)

    FT115799 level: FT115799- C>A (1C)
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

    "Know where you came from and where you are going."

    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    So you don't get confused in the future, it's not that the dude is Albanian nationalist, it has more to do with making E-V13 a Middle Age phenomena which some non E-V13 Albanians are heavily promoting, of course disfavoring this Y-DNA (on their own worldview).
    Thracians were enriched with E-V13. But it has already been found in Slavs and Goths, with such a small amount of samples. I smell something burning. Let's wait and see. There is other evidence but I will keep them to myself until I see more samples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Thracians were enriched with E-V13. But it has already been found in Slavs and Goths, with such a small amount of samples. I smell something burning. Let's wait and see. There is other evidence but I will keep them to myself until I see more samples.
    We eliminated E-V13 from Mokrin, but one of the samples was actually E-L241.

    *According to rumours*

    E-CTS1273 I18832 0.0293957 HRV_Pop_CA
    E-V13 I14465 0.03366259 HUN_MBA_Vatya
    E-Y142743 I18527 0.02445165 SRB_Mokrin_EBA
    E-Z1057 I16272 0.02587514 CZE_Unetice_EBA
    And, also likely Chalcolithic Croatia. So, before EBA they pushed North just as archeological records indicat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butmir_culture

    So, Cardium Pottery Culture => Butmir => Vucedol => Hatvan/Nagyrev/Vatya/Nyirseg (along the ranges) and related North-East Hungarian/Slovakian/Romanian border cultures which subsequently centuries later participated on forming Middle-Danube Urnfield Cultures.


    Based on space/time restrictions, and knowing the Spanish Cardial Neolithic was positive for E-V13, i doubt E-V13 formed from Cucuteni-Tripolye. It wouldn't make sense to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    We eliminated E-V13 from Mokrin, but one of the samples was actually E-L241.

    *According to rumours*



    And, also likely Chalcolithic Croatia. So, before EBA they pushed North just as archeological records indicat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butmir_culture

    So, Cardium Pottery Culture => Butmir => Vucedol => Hatvan/Nagyrev/Vatya/Nyirseg (along the ranges) and related North-East Hungarian/Slovakian/Romanian border cultures which subsequently centuries later participated on forming Middle-Danube Urnfield Cultures.
    So even Thracians were not enriched with it?

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