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Thread: Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    We already know Late Neolithic samples from Bulgaria though, and all of them are G2a. Then R1b appears in Chalcolithic.

    That single E-V13 sample which has a lot of Barcin and some Yamnaya makes me think E-V13 really lived in Balkans during Chalcolithic (Either Chalcolithic Croatia/Serbia/Bosnia, somewhere here) then moved up North during EBA to integrate and participate into the formation of latter Middle-Danube Urnfield groups. Some of them more some of them less so.

    Just like i mentioned before Cardials moved up in Bosnia, participating in creating Butmir Culture then Butmir participated on forming Vucedol then Vucedol participated on creating Nagyrev and related North-East Hungarian EBA Cultures. Let's see how things work out.
    Its such a shame they didn't use the improved yDNA enrichment methods, because these would really help and make things a lot more clear. Like where the Fzesabony samples, two of them, really haplogroup H? Which subclade? Or the exact subclades of E-V13, G2, J2 and I2. Interestingly, the only I2 which seems to be fairly safe seems to be a dead end. Like I wrote in the other thread, looks like E-V13 eliminated those which participated in this Northward migration, began to first dominate in the Tisza basin and then moving out from there, especially East and South. With Kyjatice, there are now already two J2a with a similar profile to the E-V13 Northern one:
    Celtic_paper:I17322 0.02893993 (J-Y16464) (closest to Swedish, 3rd is Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, outside German range)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16464/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Its such a shame they didn't use the improved yDNA enrichment methods, because these would really help and make things a lot more clear. Like where the F�zesabony samples, two of them, really haplogroup H? Which subclade? Or the exact subclades of E-V13, G2, J2 and I2. Interestingly, the only I2 which seems to be fairly safe seems to be a dead end. Like I wrote in the other thread, looks like E-V13 eliminated those which participated in this Northward migration, began to first dominate in the Tisza basin and then moving out from there, especially East and South. With Kyjatice, there are now already two J2a with a similar profile to the E-V13 Northern one:
    Celtic_paper:I17322 0.02893993 (J-Y16464) (closest to Swedish, 3rd is Polish, plots close in the Germanic-Slavic continuum, outside German range)
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y16464/
    I concur, it's a mess. I remember the old good days where we time-traveled from Neolithic and Chalcolithic right away in Iron Age when we used to explain Y-DNA presence, completely ignoring the more dynamic Bronze Age and especially Bronze to Iron Age transition lol.

    Hugelgraberkultur was my main candidate once since it was a bridge from South Germany (some sub-group descended from Michelsberger?) toward Carpathes and then Balkans. And exactly the same timeline of E-V13 rise to prominence, but probably it was just a false call.

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    I wonder where is Huba Buba/Huban, haven't heard of him for a time. Probably he is hiding somewhere refining his theory on Thracians, Illyrians. He will pop up eventually in one of the threads.

    Huban prince of E-V13 Daco-Thracians


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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    From the distances the J2b2 samples have affinities with Adriatic on the other side, so it makes sense they are from there, Eastern Adriatic, Illyrian tribes from Dalmatia.
    It isn't to put upside down the whole argumentation here; just to be precise, it seems that Illyrians were not the same as Liburnians and other N-W Balkan tribes, at least linguistically speaking. At some time, every post East-Urnfield territory was considered under Illyrian control and culture, until the Lusacian C. based on river names in Poland; it appear their linguistic links would be rather with Liburnians and even Sth Veneti so some kind of post-Meta-Italic heritage. I avow I lack recent clues about the allover region concerning Y-haplo's ( I have not had access to all the complete new surveys. My bet todate is that the IA Y-R1b-U152's are rather linked to N-W Balkans and Central Europe rather than to S-W Balkans. If I'm wrong, I would be glad to have the recent data I lack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    It isn't to put upside down the whole argumentation here; just to be precise, it seems that Illyrians were not the same as Liburnians and other N-W Balkan tribes, at least linguistically speaking. At some time, every post East-Urnfield territory was considered under Illyrian control and culture, until the Lusacian C. based on river names in Poland; it appear their linguistic links would be rather with Liburnians and even Sth Veneti so some kind of post-Meta-Italic heritage. I avow I lack recent clues about the allover region concerning Y-haplo's ( I have not had access to all the complete new surveys. My bet todate is that the IA Y-R1b-U152's are rather linked to N-W Balkans and Central Europe rather than to S-W Balkans. If I'm wrong, I would be glad to have the recent data I lack.
    It's slightly unclear at the moment.

    As for Proto-Illyrians, two theories are the most credible:

    1. They were Yamnaya derived continuing the Early Bronze Age tradition exclusively, the initial carrier was R1b-Z2103 and latter joined by J2b2-L283 (If we go by Yugoslav and Albanian archeologists this is who the Proto-Illyrians were)

    2. They were CWC/Bell Beaker derived, probably Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus grave people who largely influenced the Danubian Urnfield and hence the historical Pannonian, and Illyrization of core Illyrians happened during LBA/EIA when the so called Pannonian-Balkan migration happened and enriched the inner Balkans with iron-working technology (If we go by Austrian archeologists there was Early/Middle Bronze Age continuity but there was strong Danubian Urnfield influence during LBA/EIA (E-V13 involved?)).

    Then again we don't know exactly who in specificity was this Danubian Urnfield Culture. We have several of them:

    Middle-Danube Urnfield culture


    - Velatice-Baierdorf in Moravia and Austria
    - Čaka in western Slovakia
    - Gáva culture
    - Piliny culture
    - Kyjatice culture
    - Makó culture

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    Piliny is just considered an earlier stage of Kyjatice. And Mako seems to have become rather a substrate to both Kyjatice and Gva. Out of these only Velatice-Baierdorf is a real member of the Middle Danubian Urnfield group as far as I understood it. They are however very typical for it, so essentially that's it. Those coming down the Danube from the Alpine-Danubian zone would be closely related to Velatice-Baierdorf, not Kyjatice-Gva, which was more Eastern local, closer connected to Epi-Corded and Uneticians than the former.

    Compare:
    The expansion of the Early Urnfield Culture and in particular the so-called Baierdorf-Velatice complex between eastern Austria and northern Croatia is the focus of this project. In cooperation with the Institute of Archeology in Zagreb, the finds from this period (13th and 12th c. BC) are analysed in terms of typology, fabrics and context.
    In March 2018 the Austrian and Croatian team members visited the museums in Zagreb, Krievci and Slatina with collections of the finds assigned to the Baierdorf-Velatice cultural complex (Zagreb, Krievci and Slatina). The goal was to discuss and compare detailed typological and chronological sequence of pottery shapes and decorations related to early phase of the Urnfield Culture. Thanks to the cooperation of the involved museums, the team members were able to study and examine the finds from sites Zagreb-Vrapče (Archaeological Museum Zagreb), Kalnik-Igriće (City Museum Krievci) and Veliko Polje (Museum Slatina).
    https://www.oeaw.ac.at/en/oeai/forsc...uth-connection

    The Middle Danubian Tumulus culture was closer connected to the Alpine-Danubian zone, basically Austria-Czechia, while the Channelled Ware group was oriented towards the Carpathians, Eastern Slovakia-North Western Romania. They both split Pannonia/Hungary, largely along the Danube, which later resulted in a mixed zone first and very much later in Eastern Hallstat-Basarabi continuum.

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    Well then, let's just split Danubian Urnfield Cultures into Western(more Alpine)/Eastern(more Carpathian) zones, but the core zone inbetween Alps and Carpathian mountains?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Well then, let's just split Danubian Urnfield Cultures into Western(more Alpine)/Eastern(more Carpathian) zones, but the core zone inbetween Alps and Carpathian mountains?
    That's for sure, but a wide range. And they were already split in the Tumulus Culture phase, which is the latest point at which Illyrian and Thracian must gone separate ways. The Middle Danubian TC pushed the ancestors of Kyjatice-Gva East and annihilated the Fzesabony sibling of the late Otomani complex, the Gyulavarsnd group. Both were intrusive, but from different backgrounds (Bell Beaker vs. Epi-Corded), and the Middle Danubians came in later, actually.
    You see it on the PCA too, the Southern Illyrian-West Balkan Illyrian complex with J2b plots with the French, the Fzesabony-Kyjatice-Gva with French too, but in comparison much more with Balkan, Germanics and Slavs.

    Distance to: HUN_LBA_Gava:I20771
    0.03594555 Croatian:Croatia_Cro198
    0.04016997 German:German18
    0.04102858 Slovakian:Slovakia85
    0.04207747 Austrian:Austria16
    0.04239893 Hungarian:NA15200
    0.04326720 Polish:Polish27
    0.04327447 Austrian:Austria17
    0.04334110 Austrian:Austria15
    0.04368963 German:German4
    0.04476262 Polish:Polish28
    0.04519971 German:German76
    0.04532535 German:German73
    0.04546498 German:German59
    0.04554725 Slovenian:Slovenian90
    0.04578035 German:German75
    0.04578825 Slovakian:Slovakia96
    0.04591099 Slovakian:Slovakia118
    0.04625260 Polish:Polish10
    0.04643268 German:German40
    0.04673483 Ukrainian:UKR-1283
    0.04695328 Moldovan_o:Moldovan_V46055
    0.04710677 German:German64
    0.04726736 Austrian:Austria7
    0.04739816 Polish:Polish26
    0.04746757 Croatian:Croatia_Cro141


    Distance to: HUN_LBA_Kyjatice:I1504
    0.03716199 French_Alsace:A_31
    0.03956820 German_East:German_East3
    0.04211835 Slovenian:Slovenian90
    0.04255626 German:German47
    0.04280057 Austrian:Austria16
    0.04387790 Croatian:Croatia_Cro198
    0.04393539 French_Alsace:A_69
    0.04400297 German:German73
    0.04497305 French_Alsace:A_25
    0.04521751 French_Auvergne:C_37
    0.04526846 Hungarian:NA15200
    0.04529478 French_Nord:N_18
    0.04549825 German:German41
    0.04563996 Austrian:Austria11
    0.04573830 Italian_Sappada:GRC14372363
    0.04586365 Italian_Sappada:GRC14372308
    0.04595099 French_Occitanie:T_65
    0.04599167 Slovenian:Slovenian136
    0.04611260 German:German29
    0.04619197 French_Alsace:A_49
    0.04624080 Croatian:Croatia_Cro142
    0.04626876 Hungarian:NA15208
    0.04631957 French_Occitanie:T_36
    0.04652386 French_Alsace:A_15
    0.04662286 Croatian:Croatia_Cro43


    Compare with some J2b Illyrians, some with possible Veneti or Celtic relations:

    Distance to: J2B:I23995
    0.02016571 Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
    0.02154721 Italian_Veneto:KF1800772
    0.02245733 Italian_Veneto:KF1800751
    0.02272725 French_Corsica:corsica11908
    0.02436301 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01147
    0.02526576 Italian_Veneto:Alp401
    0.02531035 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP200
    0.02579578 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
    0.02604619 French_Provencerovance2508
    0.02634485 French_Provence:S_33
    0.02640638 French_Provencerovance2708
    0.02672187 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP259
    0.02677038 Italian_Piedmont:Piedmont61
    0.02696502 Italian_Northeast:ALP346
    0.02703713 Italian_Northeast:KF1800761
    0.02709998 Italian_Veneto:ALP022
    0.02808118 Italian_Lombardy:ALP288
    0.02826900 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01153
    0.02880657 Italian_Veneto:ALP116
    0.02883318 Spanish_Penedes:ROB016
    0.02884183 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP071
    0.02884906 Spanish_Mallorca:MEL022
    0.02886690 Spanish_Mallorca:MAY035
    0.02890136 Italian_Veneto:ALP250
    0.02898031 Italian_Veneto:Alp100

    Distance to: J2B:I26742
    0.02262368 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01155
    0.02656272 Italian_Veneto:ALP209
    0.02704348 Italian_Lombardy:ALP288
    0.02770564 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01153
    0.02795969 French_Corsica:CorsicaS04208
    0.02819830 Italian_Carloforte:GRC14339280
    0.02854679 Italian_Piedmont:Piedmont61
    0.02863547 French_Corsica:Corsica14708
    0.02901771 Swiss_Italian:Swiss_Italian3
    0.02983226 Italian_Lombardy:BGD28
    0.02988361 Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont127
    0.03018880 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01147
    0.03032490 French_Provencerovance2708
    0.03053289 Spanish_Baleares:HG01613
    0.03073969 Italian_Piedmont:ItalyPiedmont149
    0.03080905 Italian_Veneto:KF1800751
    0.03094437 Italian_Bergamo:HGDP01152
    0.03133082 Italian_Veneto:ALP022
    0.03170370 Spanish_Mallorca:MEL022
    0.03175743 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP395
    0.03179973 Swiss_Italian:Swiss_Italian2
    0.03202325 Italian_Veneto:KF1800772
    0.03202815 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige:ALP259
    0.03223245 French_Corsica:Corsica24508
    0.03227046 Italian_Tuscany:NA20502

    The Illyrian-related samples have very little Epi-Corded and Mako drift/WHG, which makes the Kyjatice-Gva, which have it, more "Balto-Slavic" in comparison.
    Last edited by Riverman; 12-11-21 at 13:16.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    It's slightly unclear at the moment.

    As for Proto-Illyrians, two theories are the most credible:

    1. They were Yamnaya derived continuing the Early Bronze Age tradition exclusively, the initial carrier was R1b-Z2103 and latter joined by J2b2-L283 (If we go by Yugoslav and Albanian archeologists this is who the Proto-Illyrians were)

    2. They were CWC/Bell Beaker derived, probably Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus grave people who largely influenced the Danubian Urnfield and hence the historical Pannonian, and Illyrization of core Illyrians happened during LBA/EIA when the so called Pannonian-Balkan migration happened and enriched the inner Balkans with iron-working technology (If we go by Austrian archeologists there was Early/Middle Bronze Age continuity but there was strong Danubian Urnfield influence during LBA/EIA (E-V13 involved?)).

    Then again we don't know exactly who in specificity was this Danubian Urnfield Culture. We have several of them:

    Middle-Danube Urnfield culture


    - Velatice-Baierdorf in Moravia and Austria
    - Čaka in western Slovakia
    - Gáva culture
    - Piliny culture
    - Kyjatice culture
    - Makó culture
    Those hypotheses might be one and the same.

    The Yamnaya culture (Russian: Я́мная культу́ра, IPA: [ˈjamnəjə kulʲˈtura], lit. 'culture of pits') also known as the Yamnaya Horizon,[2] Yamna culture, Pit Grave culture or Ochre Grave culture, was a late Copper Age to early Bronze Age archaeological culture of the region between the Southern Bug, Dniester, and Ural rivers (the Pontic steppe), dating to 3300–2600 BC.[3] Its name derives from its characteristic burial tradition: Я́мная (romanization: yamnaya) is a Russian adjective that means 'related to pits (yama)', and these people used to bury their dead in tumuli (kurgans) containing simple pit chambers.
    “Man cannot live without a permanent trust in something indestructible in himself, and at the same time that indestructible something as well as his trust in it may remain permanently concealed from him.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Those hypotheses might be one and the same.

    The Yamnaya culture (Russian: Я́мная культу́ра, IPA: [ˈjamnəjə kulʲˈtura], lit. 'culture of pits') also known as the Yamnaya Horizon,[2] Yamna culture, Pit Grave culture or Ochre Grave culture, was a late Copper Age to early Bronze Age archaeological culture of the region between the Southern Bug, Dniester, and Ural rivers (the Pontic steppe), dating to 3300–2600 BC.[3] Its name derives from its characteristic burial tradition: Я́мная (romanization: yamnaya) is a Russian adjective that means 'related to pits (yama)', and these people used to bury their dead in tumuli (kurgans) containing simple pit chambers.
    Yes, that's true. All IE groups built tumuli. It's just that somehow they decided to name Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus grave Culture for a reason unbeknown, maybe their tumuli were larger than other groups(during their peak in Middle Bronze Age) not that other IE groups didn't built them. Albanian archeologist Frano Prendi thought Illyrian tumuli were descended from Cetina Culture tumuli, that means from EBA.

    But Hugelgraberkultur were Bell-Beaker/CWC derived R1b-L51?, while Yamnaya largely R1b-Z2103, and we are yet to find J2b2-L283 in pure Yamnaya context. So far, it was present in IE group post 2000 B.C and mainly Proto-Illyrian/Illyrian related.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Yes, that's true. All IE groups built tumuli. It's just that somehow they decided to name Hugelgraberkultur/Tumulus grave Culture for a reason unbeknown, maybe their tumuli were larger than other groups(during their peak in Middle Bronze Age) not that other IE groups didn't built them. Albanian archeologist Frano Prendi thought Illyrian tumuli were descended from Cetina Culture tumuli, that means from EBA.

    But Hugelgraberkultur were Bell-Beaker/CWC derived R1b-L51?, while Yamnaya largely R1b-Z2103, and we are yet to find J2b2-L283 in pure Yamnaya context. So far, it was present in IE group post 2000 B.C and mainly Proto-Illyrian/Illyrian related.
    Yep, went on a google spree right after I posted that reply. It seems there is not much research linking the two together, but given the timeline it is entirely possible. Mainly before making that comment I was referring to the Tumuli/us entry in Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus ). And they seem to be present all over the globe in different unrelated cultures. But who knows maybe Steppe tumuli, Catacomb tumuli, Illyrian tumuli and Tumulus Culture tumuli might have some cultural continuity even if lacking DNA continuity, since it seems the timeline does not necessarily falsify such claims.

    This discussion is way out of my depth though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    Yep, went on a google spree right after I posted that reply. It seems there is not much research linking the two together, but given the timeline it is entirely possible. Mainly before making that comment I was referring to the Tumuli/us entry in Wikipedia ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus ). And they seem to be present all over the globe in different unrelated cultures. But who knows maybe Steppe tumuli, Catacomb tumuli, Illyrian tumuli and Tumulus Culture tumuli might have some cultural continuity even if lacking DNA continuity, since it seems the timeline does not necessarily falsify such claims.

    This discussion is way out of my depth though.
    Not that i know much btw, but tumuli burials were for sure introduced by Proto Indo-Europeans during Chalcolithic/EBA when they entered Europe and all of them trace this burial practice from them. But then a lot of influences and mixes happened after that. So, decades, centuries later some of the particular cultures developed their own way of building tumuli graves. Some even practiced cremation on a pyre underneath having tumuli, a burial practice which Enchelei used to do.

    From my understanding, the Illyrians were the IE group which persisted the most building tumuli way latter during classical age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Not that i know much btw, but tumuli burials were for sure introduced by Proto Indo-Europeans during Chalcolithic/EBA when they entered Europe and all of them trace this burial practice from them. But then a lot of influences and mixes happened after that. So, decades, centuries later some of the particular cultures developed their own way of building tumuli graves. Some even practiced cremation on a pyre underneath having tumuli, a burial practice which Enchelei used to do.

    From my understanding, the Illyrians were the IE group which persisted the most building tumuli way latter during classical age.
    The Illyrian core is particularly conservative, and that starts when the Illyrians, descendents from the Middle Danubian TC, split into those cremating and those sticking to inhumation. The later, the "Illyrian proper" or Illyrian core defined themselves in distinction from incoming Celts, assimilated Pannonian Illyrians and Daco-Thraians, by sticking to "the old ways".

    This is also what TC in itself was about. After Unetice had a more proto-state appearance, was more socially stratified, complex and mixed, TC is like "going back to the roots" after its collapse. Note that the Unetician core controlled the mostly Bell Beaker Southern German groups, in wider networks. But this was probably a cultural and even political dominance these Bell Beaker tribes, probably, didn't really appreciate.
    The same repeats with Urnfield and then with Hallstatt. In the latter case La Tene being also a revolution against the more Eastern dominance, fusing old and new elements to a new dynamic culture, which was La Tene. Tumulus culture followed a similar trajectory, after the Unetician collapse.
    So some of the TC influx and attacks are like La Tene Celts, but they must not be La Tene Celts already, but just similar Bell Beaker related groups. Celts might be from a smaller, more specific nucleus of it.
    There was however, as you maybe read out, this competition and dynamic between the Polish-Carpathian and Rhenish-Alpine groups. One of them was usually dominant, for a time, then the pendulum moved once more.
    Corded Ware = Eastern dominance
    Bell Beaker = Western dominance
    Unetice = Eastern dominance
    Tumulus Culture = Western dominance
    Urnfield = Eastern dominance
    Early Hallstatt = Eastern dominance
    La Tene = Western dominance

    As you can see, the pendulum went forward and backward and in this context, Illyrians are definitely closer to the Western, Daco-Thracians to the Eastern group, but both largely at the border. Just like Bosnians and Albanians were for most of their existence between the West (Catholic) and East (Orthodox) too. Its an age old borderzone.

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    It's interesting how Enchelei burial described by Pasco Cuzman is similar to how Homer describes Patroclus burial. Obviously this was not the burial of Acheans, but of some of the Early Iron Age Greek tribes.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    https://www.nature.com/articles/5201769/figures/2
    9 out of 168 is 5.4%

    Another study with 193 samples put all E at 8.7%.
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...gion-of-origin


    Maciamo has a total collection of +500 samples so I am missing something, but it is probably around 5-7%.

    cool papers
    i wanted to see the haplogroups specific to heraklion city ( the capital) inside the heraklion prefecture



    heraklion city:
    r1b 3/16


    G2 2/16


    E-M78 2/16


    J1 1/16

    R1A 3/16


    J2F-M67 2/16

    T-M70 1/16


    J2-DYS413 2/16


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraklion
    Last edited by kingjohn; 12-11-21 at 17:51.
    ancestery :
    mostly western jewish here is the overlapp with south europe[U]

    "Know where you came from and where you are going."

    Direct paternal line : mizrahi from damascus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The Illyrian core is particularly conservative, and that starts when the Illyrians, descendents from the Middle Danubian TC, split into those cremating and those sticking to inhumation. The later, the "Illyrian proper" or Illyrian core defined themselves in distinction from incoming Celts, assimilated Pannonian Illyrians and Daco-Thraians, by sticking to "the old ways".

    This is also what TC in itself was about. After Unetice had a more proto-state appearance, was more socially stratified, complex and mixed, TC is like "going back to the roots" after its collapse. Note that the Unetician core controlled the mostly Bell Beaker Southern German groups, in wider networks. But this was probably a cultural and even political dominance these Bell Beaker tribes, probably, didn't really appreciate.
    The same repeats with Urnfield and then with Hallstatt. In the latter case La Tene being also a revolution against the more Eastern dominance, fusing old and new elements to a new dynamic culture, which was La Tene. Tumulus culture followed a similar trajectory, after the Unetician collapse.
    So some of the TC influx and attacks are like La Tene Celts, but they must not be La Tene Celts already, but just similar Bell Beaker related groups. Celts might be from a smaller, more specific nucleus of it.
    There was however, as you maybe read out, this competition and dynamic between the Polish-Carpathian and Rhenish-Alpine groups. One of them was usually dominant, for a time, then the pendulum moved once more.
    Corded Ware = Eastern dominance
    Bell Beaker = Western dominance
    Unetice = Eastern dominance
    Tumulus Culture = Western dominance
    Urnfield = Eastern dominance
    Early Hallstatt = Eastern dominance
    La Tene = Western dominance

    As you can see, the pendulum went forward and backward and in this context, Illyrians are definitely closer to the Western, Daco-Thracians to the Eastern group, but both largely at the border. Just like Bosnians and Albanians were for most of their existence between the West (Catholic) and East (Orthodox) too. Its an age old borderzone.
    As I have been saying for many many years ...........the celts lived on the north side of the Danube river ...........bavaria , czech lands and a bit of SW Poland ..............north East of the celts up to the baltic sea where the West-balt people.

    On the south side of the Danube river ( noricum ) lived the Illyrians.

    As the celts pushed into Noricum to create Halstatt culture ............these illyrians became celtinized , slowly but surely ................celts then proceeded further south reaching as far south as modern serbia ( scordisci tribe )...........but on the adriatic sea coast they did not go ( maybe the mountain range was a preventive ) ......this left the Venetic, Histrians, Liburnians , Dalmatians as who they where originally .............although the Venetic adopted Celtic dress sense
    Fathers mtdna ...... T2b17
    Grandfather mtdna ... T1a1e
    Sons mtdna ...... K1a4p
    Mothers line ..... R1b-S8172
    Grandmother paternal side ... I1-CTS6397
    Wife paternal line ..... R1a-PF6155

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    2 members found this post helpful.
    @Riverman post #833
    interesting
    From where and when came I23995 and I26742 ?
    They could check Liburnians or Sth Veneti in some way, some Italics...

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    Quote Originally Posted by torzio View Post
    As I have been saying for many many years ...........the celts lived on the north side of the Danube river ...........bavaria , czech lands and a bit of SW Poland ..............north East of the celts up to the baltic sea where the West-balt people.
    On the south side of the Danube river ( noricum ) lived the Illyrians.
    We don't really know who they were, but only the core of Western Hallstatt is more likely to be safe for Celts, all the rest, but especially the Eastern Hallstatt groups, are not.

    As the celts pushed into Noricum to create Halstatt culture
    Its the other way around, Thraco-Cimmerians and Basarabi pushed into Noricum, to create Eastern Hallstatt, with Western Hallstatt (of which at least some where Celtic) adopting the innovations and cultural cannon, probably even some aristocratic elites, from the East. Hallstatt, especially early Hallstatt, was going from the Carpathians to the West, not vice versa.

    ............these illyrians became celtinized , slowly but surely ................celts then proceeded further south reaching as far south as modern serbia ( scordisci tribe )
    At the end and after the collapse of Hallstatt, yes, but saying that Hallstatt was a West -> East spread of cultural formations and just Celtic is imho just wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by MOESAN View Post
    @Riverman post #833
    interesting
    From where and when came I23995 and I26742 ?
    They could check Liburnians or Sth Veneti in some way, some Italics...
    We don't know for sure, but I heard something like Adriatic-Pannonian sphere being confirmed, which is where they plot. Its not just these two, its a whole cluster of J2b's all clustering around the same spot, all with IDs of 22xxx, 23xxx, 24xxx etc., so presumably from related badges from an archaeological group.

    Interestingly the more Mako- and Epi-Corded-like E-V13 and R-Z2103 samples are from different series, which got ID's with 18xxx, 15xxx etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    We don't really know who they were, but only the core of Western Hallstatt is more likely to be safe for Celts, all the rest, but especially the Eastern Hallstatt groups, are not.
    Its the other way around, Thraco-Cimmerians and Basarabi pushed into Noricum, to create Eastern Hallstatt, with Western Hallstatt (of which at least some where Celtic) adopting the innovations and cultural cannon, probably even some aristocratic elites, from the East. Hallstatt, especially early Hallstatt, was going from the Carpathians to the West, not vice versa.
    At the end and after the collapse of Hallstatt, yes, but saying that Hallstatt was a West -> East spread of cultural formations and just Celtic is imho just wrong.
    We don't know for sure, but I heard something like Adriatic-Pannonian sphere being confirmed, which is where they plot. Its not just these two, its a whole cluster of J2b's all clustering around the same spot, all with IDs of 22xxx, 23xxx, 24xxx etc., so presumably from related badges from an archaeological group.
    Interestingly the more Mako- and Epi-Corded-like E-V13 and R-Z2103 samples are from different series, which got ID's with 18xxx, 15xxx etc.
    I am not saying western celts ( french ) created Halstatt culture ...........I am saying celts from bavaria and czech lands went into making Halstatt

    noric steel

    Last edited by torzio; 13-11-21 at 02:12.

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    @Riverman, the subclade (it's the same subclade for both, Z-58, and maybe even three of them) of I1 are not popular in modern Serbia. Do you think that I1 in Balkans is mostly or at least a good amount of it of Slavic origin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    @Riverman, the subclade (it's the same subclade for both, Z-58, and maybe even three of them) of I1 are not popular in modern Serbia. Do you think that I1 in Balkans is mostly or at least a good amount of it of Slavic origin?
    I don't really know, but my personal opinion is, that most of the I1 came with Germanics, however, like some E-V13 clades, some might have been brought by Slavs coming down from Slovakia-Ukraine-Romania-Hungary and not been there before. But this needs to be tested, especially in Slovaks its hard to distinguish in every single case whether its more ancient Germanic tribal or more recent German Eastern colonisation.

    A Romanian subclade like this one could be both:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y21391/

    Or here:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S19185/

    Like with all the other haplogroups, we need more samples. I didn't check them on FTDNA, probably they already have closer matches in England or Germany, which would prove the point. Like if having a TMRCA with Germans of around 1.000 BP, you know its recent German. If its older than 1.800 BP, you never know.

    This looks like a very old Germanic which might have been spread by Slavs:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3568/

    But even in this case, you clearly see on FTDNA that the I-S19185 context is Germanic, with only some subclades, like in I-FT244582 being spread in Slavic speakers. This subclade is however fairly old, so could have entered Slavic groups pretty early.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I don't really know, but my personal opinion is, that most of the I1 came with Germanics, however, like some E-V13 clades, some might have been brought by Slavs coming down from Slovakia-Ukraine-Romania-Hungary and not been there before. But this needs to be tested, especially in Slovaks its hard to distinguish in every single case whether its more ancient Germanic tribal or more recent German Eastern colonisation.

    A Romanian subclade like this one could be both:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y21391/

    Or here:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-S19185/

    Like with all the other haplogroups, we need more samples. I didn't check them on FTDNA, probably they already have closer matches in England or Germany, which would prove the point. Like if having a TMRCA with Germans of around 1.000 BP, you know its recent German. If its older than 1.800 BP, you never know.

    This looks like a very old Germanic which might have been spread by Slavs:
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3568/

    But even in this case, you clearly see on FTDNA that the I-S19185 context is Germanic, with only some subclades, like in I-FT244582 being spread in Slavic speakers. This subclade is however fairly old, so could have entered Slavic groups pretty early.
    Why do Tuscans have less I1 than Serbians? Also wasn't the Slavic migration supposed to lower the I1 in Balkans? Italians have not changed much from the Early Middle Ages it seems and they have less I1 than Slavic Balkaners, expect for Veneto.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ihype02 View Post
    Why do Tuscans have less I1 than Serbians? Also wasn't the Slavic migration supposed to lower the I1 in Balkans? Italians have not changed much from the Early Middle Ages it seems and they have less I1 than Slavic Balkaners, expect for Veneto.
    I don't have the answer, but just as a hint, Germanics became fairly dominant in some of the mentioned areas for generations, before the Slavs came in, and some seem to have been assimilated even earlier by Romans, or later by Slavs, plus there was a significant influx in various regions from Germany, with German Medieval settlement, reaching very early as far as Southern Serbia and Bulgaria, with many settlements being rather isolated and assimilated by locals on long run, especially after the Ottoman conquest.
    Different Germanic tribes carried different ratios of various haplogroups, including I1, I2, R-U106, G2 and E-V13 among others. There seem to have been some early founder effects for remaining I1 lineages in Albanians and Serbs also. Such founder effects being much more rare in the less clan based Italian peninsula.

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    I am actually surprised the Goths show E-V13, i mean like let's say they picked in Balkans, but how could they cherry-pick E-V13 that it shows among Iberian Goths and Crimean Goths and again in original Gothic land. It looks like it was a minor lineage among them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I don't have the answer, but just as a hint, Germanics became fairly dominant in some of the mentioned areas for generations, before the Slavs came in, and some seem to have been assimilated even earlier by Romans, or later by Slavs, plus there was a significant influx in various regions from Germany, with German Medieval settlement, reaching very early as far as Southern Serbia and Bulgaria, with many settlements being rather isolated and assimilated by locals on long run, especially after the Ottoman conquest.
    Different Germanic tribes carried different ratios of various haplogroups, including I1, I2, R-U106, G2 and E-V13 among others. There seem to have been some early founder effects for remaining I1 lineages in Albanians and Serbs also. Such founder effects being much more rare in the less clan based Italian peninsula.
    I feel like Medieval Tuscany attracted more Medieval Germans than Medieval Serbia did.
    Also G2 in Germanic tribes?

    Btw, what haplogroups did Slavs carry in your opinion?
    For me it's mostly R1a and I2a with some E-V13 and I1, captured by different tribes. But E-V13 in South Slavs is still mostly native but partly Pagan Slavic, imo.

    I think that the Slavs of Bulgaria had some E-V13, while the Slavs of Croatia could have had none of it.
    Either way I don't think that any South Slavic country has Slavic y-Dna only from R1a and I2a, surely there were other haplogroups.

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