Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

Can you remind me what you have said in the past?
he supports the idea that the majority of EV 13 found in Greeks is of balkan and especially Albanian/illyrian origins
 
he supports the idea that the majority of EV 13 found in Greeks is of balkan and especially Albanian/illyrian origins

No, urnfielders, go back and read. You might learn something after all.


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In my opinion we have too few samples and no published, robust ancient Greek study yet, so at this point it might be hard to say with confidence how much E-V13 ancient Greeks had. The haplogroup existed just north of Greece in ancient times, based on this study. Was there a “population wall” that was not breached until Albanians came to Greece in the Middle Ages? Were Chaonians, Molossians, Macedonians and others in the northern regions devoid of E-V13? What about population movements in Roman Greece? For me the questions are not answered until we get more samples.
 
“What does this mean in the Fellmayer context.”

It looks like another of the many knives in the heart of the Fallmerayer theory.

In terms of ancient Greeks, the only samples (rumored or published) for male haplogroups are G, J2a (Empuries and Mycenaeans) and R1b (I may have missed a few). According to a video presentation, two collection sites were Ambracia (R1b) and Heraklion (G).

We don’t know if the northern ancient Greek world was a “wall” to E-V13, where it was rare, or if the men had this haplogroup to a larger degree. Hopefully we will get a paper soon. It’s a burning question.

I am afraid not fully, Fallmerayer observations still remain, their degree still to be estimated.


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It would be, and perhaps in reality it is, tragic that Greek scholars and academics are withholding DNA, precisely for reasons akin to all the vitriol with the Italian papers in the last couple of years... (local italics melted, NE shift, Balkans...) As in not so much due to scientific reason, as scientifically, paper after paper confirms such phenomena, but due to optics, and how such research papers would be used in the propaganda and news outlets in the Balkans (que the trash tier Balkan insider "Austrian researchers leave Albanians lost for words *pukes*).

But if this is indeed the reasoning why samples analyzed since 2015, that is 6 years already, are not published, they will come around.
I for one really do not buy the, we don't have samples, not enough high quality bones, we don't have funding some members here have put forward in the past when I raise such concerns. If Albania, which is much poorer, can find high enough quality samples in two BA sites, don't kid me or yourselves, Greece most certainly can.

I mean, who here honestly believes they have not analyzed the "alleged" Philip bones? Cause I do not. And I am sure they have analyzed far more than that.

PS: Ralphine I gave you an upvote, not because I have an opinion one way or the other, but because you were the only member to take my question seriously. As in the past when its about throwing ad hominems at Davidski everyone jumped in, but when a scientific paper uses and its authors use his blog I hear crickets.

I really doubt something like Fellmayer can be true. As despite the shift, there still seems to be continuity in YDNA and despite the shift autosomally modern Greeks, despite the very lazy model by the authors, are no outliers from other Balkan peoples. Basic logic.
 
A characteristic genetics of southern Slavs are branches of I2a and R1a. I don't know what J2 haplotype, branch J-Y7010 has to do with slavs? Has the migration of that branch from Carpathian region been established somewhere? Or for E-V13 E-Y3762?

It is the 10th century. Where are the haplotypes of the Slavs from the seventh or ninth century?

this I ydna marker was already in croatia and italy in the iron-age

I-Y3670 Z2093 * S25360 * Z2057+29 SNPsformed 10200 ybp, TMRCA 8700 ybp

is this your I2a ?


.......................................

below is also found in ironage italy and croatia

I-M223 DFZ77/Z77 * L34/S151/PF3857 * CTS11545+33 SNPsformed 17300 ybp, TMRCA 14600 ybp
 
How do you know? And why the increase is higher in Northern Greeks and Albanians (8%) versus Pelopennesians (6%)? You are using only 2 groups, the percentage should be the same. Peloponnesians are shifted in the same direction of Macedonians.
You can get slightly different percentages only if you use Anatolians as a third party.

I used the respective averages from G25 (Greek Peloponnese, Greek Macedonia, Albania, Polish, BGR_IA, Ingria_IA) and made a 2-way model like the paper but changing between Ingria_IA and Polish -> BGR_IA+Ingria_IA, BGR_IA+Polish.
If you run these models you will see that while in any case (and for the rest of the Slavic impacted Greek pops too ) the "Slavic" increases by using Polish, the percentage increases by that much for the Greek Macedonia, Thessaly and Albanian averages only (Albanian from 22% Ingrian_IA and the rest BGR_IA to 30.2% Polish for example, an increase of 8.2%) . The increase is less severe for the Peloponnesian average and then less than 5% for the rest of the Greek pops (Greek Izmir from 11% Ingrian_IA to 15.2% Polish, an increase of 4.2% etc... ). Not huge differences between them proportionally but I was wondering if this more "dramatic" ? increase of Polish percentage in the Albanians and Northern Greeks is due to extra central/northern european influence on them (celtic, germanic) which the Polish pops should already have in their ancestral composition which the Ingria_IA average lacks.

TLDR; Polish increases the "Slavic" component on the non-Slavic populations when used and not only that but it improves the fits on a 2-way model. This increase is more dramatic on the northernmost non-Slavic Balkan populations. Could one of the reasons be, in addition to the Slavic influence, a possibly increased amount of central/northern european influence on them better captured by the Polish average ?
 
Torzio/Vettor/Sile I would think after so many years and over 10k posts on fora you would know the difference between any I2a and I2a1b-l621 aka I2a1 Dinaric.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L460/ Split happens 21,000 years ago.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3670/ the 8700bp sample from the Balkans you mentioned
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/ Dinaric aka Slavic mediated branch

You keep trying to muddy conversations for people who are not experts in this, while @ting people that clearly have an inkling what they are talking about.
Trying to school a Croat about I2a Dinaric, Albanians about L283 and what not... Use some common sense.
 
I think there is enough evidence now to consider Illyrian, Messapians, as a more probable spreader of E-V13 in Italy than at the least the Goths.
The words llyrian, Messapian, Thracian, do not appear even once in the E-V13 article. I think there has been enougy evidence for a while to see that this is an oversight.

I never seen E in the western balkans in BC times

in the current 2 x croatian and italian papers which range in date from 4790BC to 300BC

there was found

6 x G2a2
3 x R1b
3 x J2b2
3 x I2d
1 x I1
1 x C1
1 x R1a


no E
 
I used the respective averages from G25 (Greek Peloponnese, Greek Macedonia, Albania, Polish, BGR_IA, Ingria_IA) and made a 2-way model like the paper but changing between Ingria_IA and Polish -> BGR_IA+Ingria_IA, BGR_IA+Polish.
If you run these models you will see that while in any case (and for the rest of the Slavic impacted Greek pops too ) the "Slavic" increases by using Polish, the percentage increases by that much for the Greek Macedonia, Thessaly and Albanian averages only (Albanian from 22% Ingrian_IA and the rest BGR_IA to 30.2% Polish for example, an increase of 8.2%) . The increase is less severe for the Peloponnesian average and then less than 5% for the rest of the Greek pops (Greek Izmir from 11% Ingrian_IA to 15.2% Polish, an increase of 4.2% etc... ). Not huge differences between them proportionally but I was wondering if this more "dramatic" ? increase of Polish percentage in the Albanians and Northern Greeks is due to extra central/northern european influence on them (celtic, germanic) which the Polish pops should already have in their ancestral composition which the Ingria_IA average lacks.

TLDR; Polish increases the "Slavic" component on the non-Slavic populations when used and not only that but it improves the fits on a 2-way model. This increase is more dramatic on the northernmost non-Slavic Balkan populations. Could one of the reasons be, in addition to the Slavic influence, a possibly increased amount of central/northern european influence on them better captured by the Polish average ?

Exactly my train of thought. Higher Neolithic Baltic Component, Western and Eastern Europe Components in Albanians and North Greeks are captured by, in your model Polish, and in the authors models Mordovian (non slavic people) and Russian giving an overfitting problem, and overshooting the % of such components in a two way model.

This is after playing over the years with the calculators and getting the intuitive feeling of how they work. Sometimes for the perceived advantage of overfitting you lose accuracy, sounds counterintuitive but seems the case.

Once the BAM files are out, and we play with calculators it will become clear.

Are the BAMs out?
 
Torzio/Vettor/Sile I would think after so many years and over 10k posts on fora you would know the difference between any I2a and I2a1b-l621 aka I2a1 Dinaric.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L460/ Split happens 21,000 years ago.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3670/ the 8700bp sample from the Balkans you mentioned
https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L621/ Dinaric aka Slavic mediated branch

You keep trying to muddy conversations for people who are not experts in this, while @ting people that clearly have an inkling what they are talking about.
Trying to school a Croat about I2a Dinaric, Albanians about L283 and what not... Use some common sense.

I use what the papers use

you need to stop confusing BC and AD times and meshing these two into one group

Its like mixing republican roman samples with Imperial roman samples .............outcome is 100% wrong for origin
 
this I ydna marker was already in croatia and italy in the iron-age

I-Y3670 Z2093 * S25360 * Z2057+29 SNPsformed 10200 ybp, TMRCA 8700 ybp

is this your I2a ?


.......................................

below is also found in ironage italy and croatia

I-M223 DFZ77/Z77 * L34/S151/PF3857 * CTS11545+33 SNPsformed 17300 ybp, TMRCA 14600 ybp

I think that forum members from this forum should known which Slavic I2a and R1a branches are in question as far as Slavs, Croats, etc. in the Balkans are concerned. Finally it is very well exposed at Eupedia for each haplotype.

This scientific paper shows that there is not much Slavic male genetics in places which should be and Slavic(eastern Serbia, western Bulgaria). I still can't understand what this is about.
 
I think that forum members from this forum should known which Slavic I2a and R1a branches are in question as far as Slavs, Croats, etc. in the Balkans are concerned. Finally it is very well exposed at Eupedia for each haplotype.

This scientific paper shows that there is not much Slavic male genetics in places which should be and Slavic(eastern Serbia, western Bulgaria). I still can't understand what this is about.


see post #71

R1a and I2a where already in croatia and italy before any slavs arrived
 
see post #71

R1a and I2a where already in croatia and italy before any slavs arrived

We don't talk about R1a and I2a, we talk about branches and subbranches of the same and which do not exist in the Balkans 2 thousand years ago.

The most recent research by O.M. Utevska (2017), concluded that the haplogroup STR haplotypes have the highest diversity in Ukraine, with ancestral STR marker result "DYS448=20" comprising "Dnieper-Carpathian" cluster, while younger derived result "DYS448=19" comprising the "Balkan cluster" which is predominant among the South Slavs.

According to Pamjav et. al. (2019) and Fóthi et al. (2020), the distribution of ancestral subclades like of I-CTS10228 among contemporary carriers indicates a rapid expansion from Southeastern Poland, is mainly related to the Slavs and their medieval migration, and the "largest demographic explosion occurred in the Balkans"

See thread "Genetics confirm migration of White Croats to Croatia"
 
In my opinion we have too few samples and no published, robust ancient Greek study yet, so at this point it might be hard to say with confidence how much E-V13 ancient Greeks had. The haplogroup existed just north of Greece in ancient times, based on this study. Was there a “population wall” that was not breached until Albanians came to Greece in the Middle Ages? Were Chaonians, Molossians, Macedonians and others in the northern regions devoid of E-V13? What about population movements in Roman Greece? For me the questions are not answered until we get more samples.

The point is it was breached, massively actually, at the LBA-EIA transition by Channelled Ware people, which seem to have had taken part in Sea People as a small minority and as an element among Northern Greeks and Dorians. But those Channelled Ware people which made it that far South were in all likelihood more mixed than let's say Psenichevo or Bosut-Basarabi, because some of the first waves took up more locals and sometimes expanded more gradually, like in the Brnjica group. That's like it was with Greeks before in the MBA-LBA transition. They probably started as something KGK-Babino-like, but was that really what reached the islands? We'll see, because a study investigating that is on the way as well, promising "Central European" admixture in the LBA/Mycenaean period.
Same here, because some premises need to be met:
1st Channelled Ware was indeed everywhere packed with E-V13 (likely, but not sure)
2nd Channelled Ware did not just penetrate the borderline between Daco-Thracians and Greeks (what they did), but left a lasting impression on the region (likely, but not sure)

The later Thracian migrants, mercenaries, soldiers, merchants and slaves for example, also trickled in, constantly. So its nearly impossible, since we know the Thracians got a lot of E-V13, that ancient Greeks had none. But it could range for much of the Peleponnes from anything like 1 to 30 percent in the classical Age. That's completely unknown.

My guess is that Northern Greeks and Dorians had a higher percentage than other Greek groups, but that's something which needs to be proven as well.
 
We don't talk about R1a and I2a, we talk about branches and subbranches of the same and which do not exist in the Balkans 2 thousand years ago.

See thread "Genetics confirm migration of White Croats to Croatia"

Actually even some E-V13 clades are supposed to be Slavic derived in the South, like E-L540. Typically, its only present in Serbs so far, otherwise very much German, Czech, Polish, Russian. No Albanians or Greeks afaik. Same for some other subclades, but E-L540 is the most obvious case. It might have ancestors in Pannonia or more to the South, but the lineages in e.g. Serbia are clearly from recent Slavic migrants.
 
In my opinion we have too few samples and no published, robust ancient Greek study yet, so at this point it might be hard to say with confidence how much E-V13 ancient Greeks had. The haplogroup existed just north of Greece in ancient times, based on this study. Was there a “population wall” that was not breached until Albanians came to Greece in the Middle Ages? Were Chaonians, Molossians, Macedonians and others in the northern regions devoid of E-V13? What about population movements in Roman Greece? For me the questions are not answered until we get more samples.
it's difficult for me to imagine that there was not any EV-13 in ancient Greece. There were several cases even of Athenian upper class citizens marrying Thracians or having Thracians origin for example (Thucidides paternally descended from Thracians. His father's name was Oloros which was a common name among Thracian nobility. Cimon the Athenian statesman was the son of Miltiades and a Thracian princess and Demosthenes had partiall scythian origin) Also don't forget that many parts of modern Hellas were inhabited by Thracian paenonian and illyrian people in antiquity and many of them were later subjected into the Macedonian kingdom and were hellenised so I find it difficult for ancient Greeks to not carry this haplo
 
It would be, and perhaps in reality it is, tragic that Greek scholars and academics are withholding DNA

I've speculated this is the case way back in 2017. The fact that Greece still hasn't released any aDNA four years later tells me that it probably is the case. Indeed it's not about science, it's all political. If word was out that their modern populations is extremely mixed with Slavs, Albanians and Vlachs, it would just cause an outrage.
 

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