Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

I've speculated this is the case way back in 2017. The fact that there's still nothing released four years later tells me that it probably is the case. It's indeed not about science, it's all political. If word was out that their modern populations is extremely mixed with Slavs, Albanians and Vlachs, it would just cause an outrage.
I agree with you that we should have more ancient dna from Greece but if a paper came out and supported the idea of continuity between modern and ancients you would be the first one to disregard the scientific research as unreliable and biased.
 
Actually even some E-V13 clades are supposed to be Slavic derived in the South, like E-L540. Typically, its only present in Serbs so far, otherwise very much German, Czech, Polish, Russian. No Albanians or Greeks afaik. Same for some other subclades, but E-L540 is the most obvious case. It might have ancestors in Pannonia or more to the South, but the lineages in e.g. Serbia are clearly from recent Slavic migrants.

Yes there are other haplotypes or branches of the same which could be and Slavic but we are talking about major genetics. The fact that this branch has been confirmed only in Serbia it can also say that it is a later influence. Maybe they are the German miners of medieval Serbia?
 
I've speculated this is the case way back in 2017. The fact that Greece still hasn't released any aDNA four years later tells me that it probably is the case. Indeed it's not about science, it's all political. If word was out that their modern populations is extremely mixed with Slavs, Albanians and Vlachs, it would just cause an outrage.

The question is not admixture, which is just there and that's known for centuries already, but how much of old Greek (pre-classical time ethnic Greeks) survived at all. How much of classical Greeks, Macedonian era Greeks and so on. How much continuity is actually there. If, e.g., all of E-V13 came from outside in later times, what I don't think it did, it would actually mean that the Greek people were nearly completely replaced. Because the E-V13 percentage alone needs a huge, huge impact on the total population. Because from Late Antiquity and migration period on, there was no people with more than 50 percent V13 anywhere around which could have brought it. Add to that the more clearly Slavic and Albanian related lineages known, and you could as well ask, what's being left?
Therefore a complete absence of E-V13 in early Greeks and classical period Greeks would just mean that the ancient Greeks have left little traces at all.
But I don't think so, because especially the E-V13 in Cypriots, Cretans and Anatolians point to an older age and Greeks are just severely undertested. They also have some interesting lineages, possibly, going after STR results. But there are just not enough high resolution samples around to be sure and to come to meaningful conclusions. In the end the final proof can come from ancient DNA alone, like in so many other cases.
 
Yes there are other haplotypes or branches of the same which could be and Slavic but we are talking about major genetics. The fact that this branch has been confirmed only in Serbia it can also say that it is a later influence. Maybe they are the German miners of medieval Serbia?

Very possible. Especially since its not particularly widespread, it could have been brought by German or Czech miners later, you are correct.
 
I agree with you that we should have more ancient dna from Greece but if a paper came out and supported the idea of continuity between modern and ancients you would be the first one to disregard the scientific research as unreliable and biased.

There's no reason for me to be biased against Greeks, I think they are a great people. I just do not like how they downplay the mixing with neighbors, the Arvanite movement to Greece alone was huge and even made them become the majority in certain islands near the Peloponnese. I don't even think I have to talk about the Vlachs, and then you obviously have the Slavs.
I would honestly even love to see some continuity with the Greeks and the ancient ones (and I think there is).


The question is not admixture, which is just there and that's known for centuries already, but how much of old Greek (pre-classical time ethnic Greeks) survived at all. How much of classical Greeks, Macedonian era Greeks and so on. How much continuity is actually there. If, e.g., all of E-V13 came from outside in later times, what I don't think it did, it would actually mean that the Greek people were nearly completely replaced. Because the E-V13 percentage alone needs a huge, huge impact on the total population. Because from Late Antiquity and migration period on, there was no people with more than 50 percent V13 anywhere around which could have brought it. Add to that the more clearly Slavic and Albanian related lineages known, and you could as well ask, what's being left?
Therefore a complete absence of E-V13 in early Greeks and classical period Greeks would just mean that the ancient Greeks have left little traces at all.
But I don't think so, because especially the E-V13 in Cypriots, Cretans and Anatolians point to an older age and Greeks are just severely undertested. They also have some interesting lineages, possibly, going after STR results. But there are just not enough high resolution samples around to be sure and to come to meaningful conclusions. In the end the final proof can come from ancient DNA alone, like in so many other cases.

I am not talking about admixture either, and I've had those thoughts regarding EV13 as well, however I think you are making a mistake in presenting a false dialectic where either *all* EV13 is from neighbors or *no* EV13 is from neighbors. The answer could very well be somewhere in the middle. It would honestly also help if Greeks were a little more interested in testing their YDNA. It is a shame that even after all these years there is no Greek project, barely any statistics to follow. Very disappointing considering they're more wealthy and successful than their neighbors, but have no contribution to modern DNA at all.
 
There's no reason for me to be biased against Greeks, I think they are a great people. I just do not like how they downplay the mixing with neighbors, the Arvanite movement to Greece alone was huge and even made them become the majority in certain islands near the Peloponnese. I don't even think I have to talk about the Vlachs, and then you obviously have the Slavs.
I would honestly even love to see some continuity with the Greeks and the ancient ones (and I think there is). First of all sorry for my offensive tongue in my previous post now I agree that arvanites vlachs and slavs had a genetic impact on modern Greeks nobody can deny that I just don't agree on the scale of this impact anyway back to the topic now.
 
I am not talking about admixture either, and I've had those thoughts regarding EV13 as well, however I think you are making a mistake in presenting a false dialectic where either *all* EV13 is from neighbors or *no* EV13 is from neighbors. The answer could very well be somewhere in the middle. It would honestly also help if Greeks were a little more interested in testing their YDNA. It is a shame that even after all these years there is no Greek project, barely any statistics to follow. Very disappointing considering they're more wealthy and successful than their neighbors, but have no contribution to modern DNA at all.

For sure there were different contribution of E-V13, but it doesn't matter for the argument I made. If there was no or almost no E-V13, we're talking about near complete replacement. Let's assume one third of the Greek E-V13 is local from ancient times, and "just" two thirds came in later, we're talking about completely different numbers. Imagine its half-half and its again totally different. But let's say its less than 5 percent, like some claim, there would be a big scale population replacement needed, down to the islands and Anatolian Greeks.
 
There's no reason for me to be biased against Greeks, I think they are a great people. I just do not like how they downplay the mixing with neighbors, the Arvanite movement to Greece alone was huge and even made them become the majority in certain islands near the Peloponnese. I don't even think I have to talk about the Vlachs, and then you obviously have the Slavs.
I would honestly even love to see some continuity with the Greeks and the ancient ones (and I think there is).




I am not talking about admixture either, and I've had those thoughts regarding EV13 as well, however I think you are making a mistake in presenting a false dialectic where either *all* EV13 is from neighbors or *no* EV13 is from neighbors. The answer could very well be somewhere in the middle. It would honestly also help if Greeks were a little more interested in testing their YDNA. It is a shame that even after all these years there is no Greek project, barely any statistics to follow. Very disappointing considering they're more wealthy and successful than their neighbors, but have no contribution to modern DNA at all.

I don’t see anyone downplaying Greek admixture over here. Not copping to Fallmerayer does not mean admixture denial, or even substantial admixture.

In the end we will know much better, when the ancient Greek studies come. The results won’t care about our biases. Now the autosomal results of multiple studies imply continuity. It is very exciting to finally get this ancient Balkan study.
 
Last edited:
The point is it was breached, massively actually, at the LBA-EIA transition by Channelled Ware people, which seem to have had taken part in Sea People as a small minority and as an element among Northern Greeks and Dorians. But those Channelled Ware people which made it that far South were in all likelihood more mixed than let's say Psenichevo or Bosut-Basarabi, because some of the first waves took up more locals and sometimes expanded more gradually, like in the Brnjica group. That's like it was with Greeks before in the MBA-LBA transition. They probably started as something KGK-Babino-like, but was that really what reached the islands? We'll see, because a study investigating that is on the way as well, promising "Central European" admixture in the LBA/Mycenaean period.
Same here, because some premises need to be met:
1st Channelled Ware was indeed everywhere packed with E-V13 (likely, but not sure)
2nd Channelled Ware did not just penetrate the borderline between Daco-Thracians and Greeks (what they did), but left a lasting impression on the region (likely, but not sure)

The later Thracian migrants, mercenaries, soldiers, merchants and slaves for example, also trickled in, constantly. So its nearly impossible, since we know the Thracians got a lot of E-V13, that ancient Greeks had none. But it could range for much of the Peleponnes from anything like 1 to 30 percent in the classical Age. That's completely unknown.

My guess is that Northern Greeks and Dorians had a higher percentage than other Greek groups, but that's something which needs to be proven as well.

Looking very forward to the Mycenaean study. I hope there are some Mycenaeans and ancient Greeks who cluster autosomally with modern Balkan populations, not for my personal sake, but so that it’s not the same “boring old” very heavy Anatolia Neolithic.
 
It would be, and perhaps in reality it is, tragic that Greek scholars and academics are withholding DNA, precisely for reasons akin to all the vitriol with the Italian papers in the last couple of years... (local italics melted, NE shift, Balkans...) As in not so much due to scientific reason, as scientifically, paper after paper confirms such phenomena, but due to optics, and how such research papers would be used in the propaganda and news outlets in the Balkans (que the trash tier Balkan insider "Austrian researchers leave Albanians lost for words *pukes*).

But if this is indeed the reasoning why samples analyzed since 2015, that is 6 years already, are not published, they will come around.
I for one really do not buy the, we don't have samples, not enough high quality bones, we don't have funding some members here have put forward in the past when I raise such concerns. If Albania, which is much poorer, can find high enough quality samples in two BA sites, don't kid me or yourselves, Greece most certainly can.

I mean, who here honestly believes they have not analyzed the "alleged" Philip bones? Cause I do not. And I am sure they have analyzed far more than that.

PS: Ralphine I gave you an upvote, not because I have an opinion one way or the other, but because you were the only member to take my question seriously. As in the past when its about throwing ad hominems at Davidski everyone jumped in, but when a scientific paper uses and its authors use his blog I hear crickets.

I really doubt something like Fellmayer can be true. As despite the shift, there still seems to be continuity in YDNA and despite the shift autosomally modern Greeks, despite the very lazy model by the authors, are no outliers from other Balkan peoples. Basic logic.

Ummm kinda like Jewish conspiracy theories?
Most historical data for Arvanites and Slavs in Greece in Internet is produced by Greeks themselves. If you knew Greek you would have a better amount of material you can search from blogs, sites etc regarding Slavs and others in Greece.
There are studies comming up. Sooner or later.
 
Ummm kinda like Jewish conspiracy theories?
Most historical data for Arvanites and Slavs in Greece in Internet is produced by Greeks themselves. If you knew Greek you would have a better amount of material you can search from blogs, sites etc regarding Slavs and others in Greece.
There are studies comming up. Sooner or later.

Dishonest projection on your part. Pretty rude of you to assume he was even close to arguing like conspiracy theorists, he gave a lot of justification which many of us have held for years. I don't know how new you are to this anthropology "scene" but as someone who has been here for a pretty long time at this point (I only recently returned around the Etruscan paper was released) it is beyond ridiculous that we do not have aDNA from Greece. I do not blame him at all for believing it's beyond incompetence, the Balkans are heavily driven on optics.
 
it's difficult for me to imagine that there was not any EV-13 in ancient Greece. There were several cases even of Athenian upper class citizens marrying Thracians or having Thracians origin for example (Thucidides paternally descended from Thracians. His father's name was Oloros which was a common name among Thracian nobility. Cimon the Athenian statesman was the son of Miltiades and a Thracian princess and Demosthenes had partiall scythian origin) Also don't forget that many parts of modern Hellas were inhabited by Thracian paenonian and illyrian people in antiquity and many of them were later subjected into the Macedonian kingdom and were hellenised so I find it difficult for ancient Greeks to not carry this haplo

I remember Thucydides was part Thracian. He was related to Cimon’s Thracian mother (just learned that). As per this study, there was quite a lot of E-V13 right next to the ancient Greek world. Hard to imagine some of these men did not come into Greece, even in low numbers.
 
source:
page 8 in pdf

To explore whether this Northeastern European ancestry signal persisted in present-day Balkan and Aegean populations, we attempted to model present day groups by using the same qpAdmmodel used for the Kuline individuals (Supplementary section 13). Present-day Serbs, Croats and the rest of central/northern Balkan populations yielded a similar ancestral composition as the Kuline individuals, with approximately 50% Northeastern European-related ancestry admixed with ancestry related to Iron Age native Balkan population (Figure 3), implying substantial population continuity in the region over the last 1,000 years. This ancestry signal significantly decreases in more southern groups, but it is still presents in populations from mainland Greece (~30%) and even the Aegean islands (7-20%).
 
source:
page 8 in pdf

To explore whether this Northeastern European ancestry signal persisted in present-day Balkan and Aegean populations, we attempted to model present day groups by using the same qpAdmmodel used for the Kuline individuals (Supplementary section 13). Present-day Serbs, Croats and the rest of central/northern Balkan populations yielded a similar ancestral composition as the Kuline individuals, with approximately 50% Northeastern European-related ancestry admixed with ancestry related to Iron Age native Balkan population (Figure 3), implying substantial population continuity in the region over the last 1,000 years. This ancestry signal significantly decreases in more southern groups, but it is still presents in populations from mainland Greece (~30%) and even the Aegean islands (7-20%).

30% in Mainland Greece is a lot, if you add some Slavizied Iron Age native Balkan population, and vllah and Arvanites than Fallmerayer observations do not look off.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
Here we go again with the Fallmerayer theories...
I can't understand this obsession with us in EVERY paper even tangentially related to us, or not, and with the same pattern too...
Every discussion about us : look at all of this foreign admixture in Greeks! Fallmerayer was right!
If you ever leave us alone for a moment and discuss about yourselves : admixture is irrelevant, everything is about haplogroups.

Meanwhile, in this paper as in others too but also on most calculators, it shows Albanians having similar admixture levels with Northern Greeks (the population which scores up to 30% NE admixture, not the whole mainland ) but that's irrelevant somehow :unsure:...

Personally I don't care how much Slavic/NE/Northern admixture *I* or *we* or *you* have. I care about reading through a clean looking thread about an interesting for our part of the world paper that's not filled with the usual arguments for once though...Not everything should revolve around you or us...
 
There's no reason for me to be biased against Greeks, I think they are a great people. I just do not like how they downplay the mixing with neighbors, the Arvanite movement to Greece alone was huge and even made them become the majority in certain islands near the Peloponnese. I don't even think I have to talk about the Vlachs, and then you obviously have the Slavs.
I would honestly even love to see some continuity with the Greeks and the ancient ones (and I think there is).

We should also not loose sight of reality and not overrate medieval admixtures in their own right. There is plenty of time for things to have happened prior to the Middle Ages. Especially during the Bronze Age and the Iron Age/Classical Age/Hellenistic and Early Roman Age. As is seen in the study of the ancient city of Rome. I still think that i.e. Greeks and Albananians overlap due ancient migrations rather than say, modern Greek admixture in Albania or Arvanites in Greece. Think of the recent research which came out with the two middle Bronze Age individuals from Northen Greece. That alone raises a lot of questions. More data will show.
 
Here we go again with the Fallmerayer theories...
I can't understand this obsession with us in EVERY paper even tangentially related to us, or not, and with the same pattern too...
Every discussion about us : look at all of this foreign admixture in Greeks! Fallmerayer was right!
If you ever leave us alone for a moment and discuss about yourselves : admixture is irrelevant, everything is about haplogroups.

Meanwhile, in this paper as in others too but also on most calculators, it shows Albanians having similar admixture levels with Northern Greeks (the population which scores up to 30% NE admixture, not the whole mainland ) but that's irrelevant somehow :unsure:...

Personally I don't care how much Slavic/NE/Northern admixture *I* or *we* or *you* have. I care about reading through a clean looking thread about an interesting for our part of the world paper that's not filled with the usual arguments for once though...Not everything should revolve around you or us...

Not that I care, but someone up mention that this paper as a knife to his observations and theories, which does not seem right.



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
It would be nice if they explicitly mention their rejection of the findings of the paper "Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of medieval peloponnesean Greeks", which claims that Slavic ancestry in the Peloponnese is under 14.5%, and in some subgroups it may be under 1%.

It would also be interesting to see the same Slavic ancestry calculations for the Greek speakers in Southern Italy, which would time any migrations to pre-Slavic (Ancient) or post-Slavic (Medieval) eras.
 
It would be nice if they explicitly mention their rejection of the findings of the paper "Genetics of the peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of medieval peloponnesean Greeks", which claims that Slavic ancestry in the Peloponnese is under 14.5%, and in some subgroups it may be under 1%.

It would also be interesting to see the same Slavic ancestry calculations for the Greek speakers in Southern Italy, which would time any migrations to pre-Slavic (Ancient) or post-Slavic (Medieval) eras.

???
On the Peloponnesian study it's about shared ancestry with modern populations, or at least this info is represented on the models. On this study 2-way models using ancient and or modern ones are presented...
Also, the former had Peloponnesians from each and every regional unit while this...some Peloponnesians.

What would this reject exactly ?
A reminder that the Peloponnesian study was mostly about whether or not Fallmerayer's theory had any standing, not if they had Slavic admixture or not .

As for the second part, based on a previous study the Grikos seem to be mostly drifted natives.
 

This thread has been viewed 183194 times.

Back
Top