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Thread: Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archetype0ne View Post
    I mean we could beat the skeleton of the horse that died last winter, or actually remember all the back and forths here that ended up with gaslighting and bringing Nazis up for who knows what reasons.

    eupedia.com/forum/threads/34414-Genetic-Origins-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans

    That is an article you first shared, from the very same person you are saying is going to put this topic to rest soon , Lazaridis.



    Now if we are going to criticize PCAs fine. Lets be consistent. Rely on authorities in the field. Fine, lets be consistent.
    Continuity, this whole paper dealt with that and a mere ctrl f can get one the conclusion in seconds or just a basic look at the graphic.

    Jovialis at the time even provided some conference proceeding video, where Lazaridis explains why South Italy being cold as far as continuity with these source populations was not that peculiar.

    Then you have the old IBD paper about Albanians and Italians having the highest in Europe...

    Coincidentally, look at the graphs from this very paper:



    Not even sure how one interprets IX-XII Central Italians being shifted towards Early Empire NE individuals compared to modern Albanians and Greeks...

    Once someone wraps their head around that without some borderline ridiculous excuses then let me know.

    And no, Mordovians are likely not the case.
    Neither genetic biased autosomal gene flow, unless somehow Greeks and Albanians only managed to marry Slavic women while having degrees of magnitude less Y DNA impact, after two plagues and Alans, Avars, Huns and Slavs literally laying waste to the Danube.

    Whatever the answer is I do not know.

    Either way, I will catch up with the thread tomorrow, have a gn.
    It's a good idea that you go to sleep and revisit this topic in the morning; you might even want to erase this post and start fresh, because as far as I'm concerned there's no logical reasoning going on here at all.

    In fact, I have absolutely no idea what point you're trying to make. My God, the very mention of Dienekes is like waving a red flag at a bull as far as Albanians are concerned. Nothing is going to change how often he was right and eons above all his detractors in terms of sheer intellect and reasoning power.

    As for that PCA, that was ONE group of Southern Italians, with my guess being they might be Calabrians from Bova, who are so inbred that they can tell us little of general value for the sake of comparisons. That would fit with Lazaridis' explanation to Jovialis, which I remember very well.

    As I said, I really don't know what you're getting at, but maybe you can explain it better tomorrow.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The final word will be, for me, a comparison with the Greek mainland sample from just before the Slavic migrations, and which will be included in a subsequent paper by, if I'm not mistaken, Lazaridis.

    If you are referring to the Marathon sample, a little birdie told me that it clusters right into the West Asian/Island Greek continuum.


    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    Probably the best place to look for them is the Roman cities that endured the collapse. In Balkans, Constantinople or Thessaloniki.
    You are correct.

    Post 472 A.D. the Imperium preservers only its Eastern iteration, Anatolia and its people have always been the "lebensraum" of the Hellenic and the Greco-Roman world, you can't have the latter w/o the former.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    "West Asian/Island Greek continuum" is an odd term. Unless by "west asian" you mean Greco-Anatolian, which would be more specific.

    But also, until we see the paper, we don't want to hang our hats on the rumor mill. The rumor mill has been wrong before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    "West Asian/Island Greek continuum" is an odd term. Unless by "west asian" you mean Greco-Anatolian, which would be more specific.
    But also, until we see the paper, we don't want to hang our hats on the rumor mill. The rumor mill has been wrong before.
    Anatolia is West Asia, but if you prefer the former term to the latter, sure thing, IDC.

    All of you expecting "mainland" BA/IA Greeks to be some sort of North Balkan/Central Euro bunch, you are going to be severely dissapointed.

    If you want a proxy you need to check modern Dodecanesians and Cypriots. You already got a small taste from this Olalde et al. paper.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Personal preferences are irrelevant, it is for clarity and accuracy. West Asia is a very broad term, both genetically and geographically. Frankly, I think it is misleading and serves as a Levantist rethorical tool, to lump Greeks in with Levantines, as they do over at that other site.

    Also, I was never one to expect Greeks are that genetically "northern".

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    No it's not, it's very specific, it just seems to trigger the racist types who seethe at the fact that the ancient Greeks, the bastions of the Western Civilisation so to speak, were in-fact in-part a West Asian civilization (as in Anatolian, like you said).

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    Quote Originally Posted by onyx View Post
    No it's not, it's very specific, it just seems to trigger the racist types who seethe at the fact that the ancient Greeks, the bastions of the Western Civilisation so to speak, were in-fact in-part a West Asian civilization (as in Anatolian, like you said).
    Okay. So it seems I was right to assume you have an agenda.

    Also it is not specific, as I already said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Okay. So it seems I was right to assume you have an agenda.
    Also it is not specific, so as I already said.
    And what agenda would that be?

    I didn't publish this paper or made mention of the "NE" cluster found in it. I just find all the mental gymnastics and all the people getting angry over it mildly entertaining.

    And by all means, I am also fond of the term Anatolian, I will make sure to use it specifically from now on.

    Save my post, when the Marathon sample comes out and it turns out I was wrong/lying, feel free to call me out.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Obfuscation of facts to serve your preference to lump Levantines with Greeks, is not only racist, it is stupid. Levantists are just like nordicists and afrocentrics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by onyx View Post
    And what agenda would that be?
    I didn't publish this paper or made mention of the "NE" cluster found in it. I just find all the mental gymnastics and all the people getting angry over it mildly entertaining.
    And by all means, I am also fond of the term Anatolian, I will make sure to use it specifically from now on.
    Save my post, when the Marathon sample comes out and it turns out I was wrong/lying, feel free to call me out.
    It wouldn't surprise me if it landed with island Greeks. What I disapprove of is manipulation of terms.

    Also no one is angry or surprised at a Near eastern cluster in the paper. It was expected , just as it was expected to disappear after the cosmopolitan era. It says so in the paper, unless you consider simply reading to be mental gymnastics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Obfuscation of facts to serve your preference to lump Levantines with Greeks, is not only racist, it is stupid. Levantists are just like nordicists and afrocesntrics.
    No where did I mention Levantines ...

    But ... since you do mention them ... the Hellenistic Era Greeks, at the very least, should definitely have input from Levantine groups. You have read your history, right? You know where, Antiochea, the capital of the Seleucids was located, right?

    How about the Roman Patriarchate of Antiochea, maybe? You know, the location where a great part of the original New Testament texts were transcribed in the Hellenistic Greek language?

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    Where do you find the input? From your so-called little birdie? Don't answer that. We are not going off topic to give you an opportunity to spread propaganda.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    the near eastern cluster in the roman danubian limes paper
    is not levantine rather antaolian chl+ small iran neolithic
    and it dissapear when the slavs the avars invaded
    those cities so the traders, administrartors, translators there had nothing to look in those cities anymore ....
    they either turn back to west anatolia ...
    or move to other cities

    p.s
    only the near east outlier from slog was maybe levantine he cluster with north levant bronze age
    I15551 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis 242-375 cal CE R1b-Z2103,R-Z2105 T1a

    but he might be some roman auxiliary from lebanon syria many or the archers
    were from there
    or some administrator
    don't believe he was of low status

    about the -The roman greek I7833From marathon dated before slavic invasion
    252-412AD
    mention by onyx it is indeed more like greek islander profile
    but we will have to wait for laziridis paper

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    3 members found this post helpful.
    Thank you for the clarification on the subject, Kingjohn.

    Anatolian_Chl + Iran_N, that's pretty much Anatolian_N + Iran_n + more Iran_n

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Just as an aside, if any other region of the world were having facts obfuscated, I would be equally annoyed. I don't want people to think I am picking on this one topic. It just so happens, it is constantly brought up by known camps of extremists. Almost as ludicrous as the debates of the ethnicity of the Egyptians; they were indeed mostly Levantine. Arguing that just because the Greeks conquered them, and ruled them doesn't make them one in the same as the true Egyptians. However, just by merely having contacts and some limited immigration seems to open the flood gates for bizarre speculation when applied the other way around.

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    I have seen utter mendacity and/or idiocy on other sites since this paper has come out, I should rather avoid rants but sometimes I can't be helped.

    The paper is huge in terms of information to take in, and I have some hunches that some precises figures will change with new samples (to be specific I think the average of the hellenistic empuries isn't a great proxy for the classical mainland Greeks), but there are two things that the paper has established:
    1) the near easterners often died out without leaving much of a trace.
    2) the vast majority of these near easterners were (depending on the future samples we'll have) either western Anatolians or a mixture of Greeks and western Anatolians(who were like Anatolians were in the BA).

    The conclusions that naturally follow are that the theory of a pan-hellenistic three-way mixture of Greek-levantine-anatolian expanding during the empire and making up the bulk of the population of Italy and Greece is now not even remotely supportable (not only there's no evidence for it but the evidence contrary to it makes it beyond doubt implausible to argue for it).

    Somehow this theory got widespread because it both stroked the ethnonarcisism of some ashkenazi jews that against every evidence argued for an overwhelmingly local ethnogenesis of their group in the Levant before their diaspora in Europe and the petty fantasies of nordicists that must show that Greece and Italy were genetically different when they peaked and changed drastically later when they fell (and attribute a causal link to it), lest their worldview take a serious hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    the near eastern cluster in the roman danubian limes paper
    is not levantine rather antaolian chl+ small iran neolithic
    and it dissapear when the slavs the avars invaded
    those cities so the traders, administrartors, translators there had nothing to look in those cities anymore ....
    they either turn back to west anatolia ...
    or move to other cities

    p.s
    only the near east outlier from slog was maybe levantine he cluster with north levant bronze age
    I15551 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis 242-375 cal CE R1b-Z2103,R-Z2105 T1a

    but he might be some roman auxiliary from lebanon syria many or the archers
    were from there
    or some administrator
    don't believe he was of low status

    about the -The roman greek I7833From marathon dated before slavic invasion
    252-412AD
    mention by onyx it is indeed more like greek islander profile
    but we will have to wait for laziridis paper
    In the supplementary the best models are around half balkan_IA-like and half Anatolian_BA-like with minor Iran_N to add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    In the supplementary the best models are around half balkan_IA-like and half Anatolian_BA-like with minor Iran_N to add.

    my point still stands no levantine in majority
    of the near east cluster

    only the near east outlier I15551 from slog
    was maybe levantine

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    Quote Originally Posted by kingjohn View Post
    my point still stands no levantine in majority
    of the near east cluster

    only the near east outlier I15551 from slog
    was maybe levantine
    I agree, though I am confident that the near east outlier was indeed from the north Levant (if we trust the methodology for the rest of the results, this we must also accept); of course the were also real levantines in the hellenistic and empirial periods, as the Antonio et all 2019 showed that a quarter of the imperial samples were part of the near east cluster.
    The most interesting results of this paper imo is about the east med cluster in Antonio et all: the various speculations turned out to be wrong, except those that suspected it was the genetic profile of people coming from Anatolia. Given they are half Anatolia_BA (similar to the minoan substrate in Greece) and half Greek-like it is easy to see why they provided good fit for south Italians (and also north to a lesser extent) and Greeks, though it mustn't be taken as conclusive evidence that the models show what truly happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I agree, though I am confident that the near east outlier was indeed from the north Levant (if we trust the methodology for the rest of the results, this we must also accept); of course the were also real levantines in the hellenistic and empirial periods, as the Antonio et all 2019 showed that a quarter of the imperial samples were part of the near east cluster.
    The most interesting results of this paper imo is about the east med cluster in Antonio et all: the various speculations turned out to be wrong, except those that suspected it was the genetic profile of people coming from Anatolia. Given they are half Anatolia_BA (similar to the minoan substrate in Greece) and half Greek-like it is easy to see why they provided good fit for south Italians (and also north to a lesser extent) and Greeks, though it mustn't be taken as conclusive evidence that the models show what truly happened.

    yes
    cluster c4



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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jovialis View Post
    Personal preferences are irrelevant, it is for clarity and accuracy. West Asia is a very broad term, both genetically and geographically. Frankly, I think it is misleading and serves as a Levantist rethorical tool, to lump Greeks in with Levantines, as they do over at that other site.
    Also, I was never one to expect Greeks are that genetically "northern".
    Completely agree with your responses and the ban.

    Do these people never stop?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    Completely agree with your responses and the ban.

    Do these people never stop?
    They are a complete waste of time, space and effort.

    None are as blind as those who will not see.
    None are as deaf as those who will not hear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopoldo Leone View Post
    I have seen utter mendacity and/or idiocy on other sites since this paper has come out, I should rather avoid rants but sometimes I can't be helped.

    The paper is huge in terms of information to take in, and I have some hunches that some precises figures will change with new samples (to be specific I think the average of the hellenistic empuries isn't a great proxy for the classical mainland Greeks), but there are two things that the paper has established:
    1) the near easterners often died out without leaving much of a trace.
    2) the vast majority of these near easterners were (depending on the future samples we'll have) either western Anatolians or a mixture of Greeks and western Anatolians(who were like Anatolians were in the BA).

    The conclusions that naturally follow are that the theory of a pan-hellenistic three-way mixture of Greek-levantine-anatolian expanding during the empire and making up the bulk of the population of Italy and Greece is now not even remotely supportable (not only there's no evidence for it but the evidence contrary to it makes it beyond doubt implausible to argue for it).

    Somehow this theory got widespread because it both stroked the ethnonarcisism of some ashkenazi jews that against every evidence argued for an overwhelmingly local ethnogenesis of their group in the Levant before their diaspora in Europe and the petty fantasies of nordicists that must show that Greece and Italy were genetically different when they peaked and changed drastically later when they fell (and attribute a causal link to it), lest their worldview take a serious hit.
    Not sure what you thought of the Antonio et al, paper, and the quite explicit graphics (did you see what I did there?). Cause I am pretty sure Imperial Rome did have admixture events. As any empire center would. Arguing otherwise would be like saying Silicon Valley has had no admixture events. Sure there are various communities from all over the world, and with them outliers and everything, in SV, and for sure once SV ceases being an innovation hub, likely SF populations will overwhelm whatever peculiar genetic inputs has been created in SV.

    For Nordicists to have such fantasies as the ones outlined, would be akin to them having an inferiority complex towards the inputs that changed Latin and Etruscan proper populations, into Roman and Etruscan(with whatever shift, and including outliers as evidenced by the recent samples). But then again most "ists" aren't bright.


    That is how I look at it.

    PS. Byzantium is the Real Roman Empire. Rome, Germans (HRE) and Russians can compete for third fiddle.

    ^ I hope the reader realizes the sarcasm of the PS, if not...
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    Franz Kafka

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    Quote Originally Posted by blevins13 View Post
    This BOTH way between Albanian and Greeks sells you short, it is clearly obvious that from Iron Age the migrations in the Balkans has been one way only.
    Did you read the paper? It's obvious that between the Iron Age and the late Roman Imperial times, there was a significant East Med/Anatolian shift in the Balkans. Exactly when and how it happened, we still don't know. Just to be clear, I'm talking about the "Balkan IA cluster", not the "NE cluster".

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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Did you read the paper? It's obvious that between the Iron Age and the late Roman Imperial times, there was a significant East Med/Anatolian shift in the Balkans. Exactly when and how it happened, we still don't know. Just to be clear, I'm talking about the "Balkan IA cluster", not the "NE cluster".
    I think that people are making generalizations for the whole Balkans based on one Roman fortified city. People, not everybody in the Balkans lived in forts. There are some major valleys in the Balkans that supported large farmer populations and vast forests that supported shepherds and woodsmen. Did those populations totally got replaced when the Roman fortified cities got sacked? I don't think so.

    Let me give you another example. We know from documents that Venetians build forts near harbors in Greece and then imported Albanians to guard them. They gave those Albanians land around the forts to cultivate it and in return to guard the forts. You cannot make inferences about how much influence the Albanians have had inland if you sample around the forts.

    So what I am trying to say is you cannot make vast generalizations based on limited samples from a specific place and time.

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