Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

The Ghegs are/were Hallstatt derived. That's were I think this signal is coming from.

Wait a minute, I1 is only 2% of the Y-DNA it really does not matter. I should have checked earlier. I2a-12%, R1a 9%. At least according to eupedia.
 
Where does the I1 come from?


Drobnjaci
[h=4]I1-P109>FGC16695>FGC16678>Y3662>S14887>Y11203>FGC22046>FGC22045[/h]
The closest relatives outside the Balkan Peninsula are Swedes and other Nordic peoples. According to the methodology of the older grouping of researchers, their haplotype is classified in a cluster known as Nordic. By the time of the closest common ancestor of all tested I1-FGC22045 males it is only 700-800 years old (YFull, 2020, pp. 8.06.01-8.09.00). Thus, the common ancestor lived sometime in the 13th century. Outside the area of ​​the native Old Herzegovina and the area of ​​the countries where Serbs live, we meet their close relatives in S. Macedonia and in the south of Albania, and with the tested Romanian (probably a more recently assimilated line). (poreklo.rs)

 
Wait a minute, I1 is only 2% of the Y-DNA it really does not matter. I should have checked earlier. I2a-12%, R1a 9%. At least according to eupedia.


According to my memory, the region of Malesia has the lowest I2a and R1a percentages, perhaps as low as 1-5 percent.
 
Wait a minute, I1 is only 2% of the Y-DNA it really does not matter. I should have checked earlier. I2a-12%, R1a 9%. At least according to eupedia.
http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
In Ghegs there is 7.5% I1, and R1a and I2a are 8.5% combined.
Most Slavic admixture in Albanians came after the Slavs were Christianized so that put things in prespective about those numbers.

That's weird! Where does it come from? Any guidance from the sub-clades? Historical documents?
Albanians were not affected by the Pagans Slavs (they did not have the Roman power to assimilate them) which reduced the Germanic lines in others and most of Slavic input in Albanians came after the Christinization so I2a and R1a lines in Southern Slavs were reduced too by then.


 
http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
In Ghegs there is 7.5% I1, and R1a and I2a are 8.5% combined.
Most Slavic admixture in Albanians came after the Slavs were Christianized so that put things in prespective about those numbers.


Albanians were not affected by the Pagans Slavs (they did not have the Roman power to assimilate them) which reduced the Germanic lines in others and most of Slavic input in Albanians came after the Christinization so I2a and R1a lines in Southern Slavs were reduced too by then.



Are you disputing the distribution stats that eupedia has published? How can Ghegs have 7.5% and the whole country has 2%?
 
Are you disputing the distribution stats that eupedia has published? How can Ghegs have 7.5% and the whole country has 2%?

That project has more samples and there is no incentive to increase it.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
I think that it is evident that post IA, Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and what have you, were not genetically uniform. As such, even if in theory no other people have been absorbed since then, the modern offspring can not possibly overlap with the ancients. Since those ancient people with genetic variety had time to intermix.

As far as we know, there could have been North Italian like Illyrians as well as Mycenaean and/or Classical Greek like Illyrians. There is no way for Albanians to fully overlap with either of them.
 
I think that it is evident that post IA, Illyrians, Greeks, Romans and what have you, were not genetically uniform. As such, even if in theory no other people have been absorbed since then, the modern offspring can not possibly overlap with the ancients. Since those ancient people with genetic variety had time to intermix.

As far as we know, there could have been North Italian like Illyrians as well as Mycenaean and/or Classical Greek like Illyrians. There is no way for Albanians to fully overlap with either of them.
This! Thank you for pointing out the obvious.

Even if Albanians had 0% Slavic and 0% East Med and whatnot, we can?t overlap with every sample discovered in the extremities of the Balkans (namely Croatia, Thessaly, Marathon). It would require a certain Illyrian to have the perfect combination of admixtures that had 3000 years to merge.
ADMIXTURE-analysis-of-autosomal-SNPs-of-the-Western-Balkan-region-in-a-global-context-on_Q320.jpg


ADMIXTURE-analysis-of-autosomal-SNPs-of-the-Western-Balkan-region-in-a-global-context-on.png


Regarding this paper, I still don?t understand that they can claim that the 10th century AD Kuline sample has almost the same ?Slavic? as modern Albanians when the latter plots very close to the IA locals, whereas the former?s position seems to indicate Germanic admixture. For sure I?m missing something as a beginner, so I hope someone more experienced can explain it.
 
According to my memory, the region of Malesia has the lowest I2a and R1a percentages, perhaps as low as 1-5 percent.

3% Combined I2a R1a.
 
Are you disputing the distribution stats that eupedia has published? How can Ghegs have 7.5% and the whole country has 2%?

There is some 1500 samples IIRC of YDNA that came out mostly last 4 years. Not sure when the Eupedia stats were last updated. But if we take current projects, in Malësia, around 3% of haplogroups are R1a, I2a1, combined.

http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/

Right click, translate to English
https://rrenjet.com/malesia/
 
different roman historian mentions different illyrian tribes than other historians

appian



interesting is that the tribe below sits near one of these non-illyrian

https://www.itinari.com/daorson-the-stonehenge-of-bosnia-and-herzegovina-mk0p
I see you?re struggling a lot with the ancient authors as to who would categorize as Illyrii proprie dicti or Illyrii perperam dicti.

We don?t care as it?s just a geographical term used for related tribes. In case you haven?t noticed, the further back in time you go, the less diversity there exists among tribes, as well as their languages being more related going back to a common Indo-European tongue.

Latins, Oscans, and Umbrians are different yet belong to the same family. Are you going to say the Umbrians are not Italici proprie dicti?

I couldn?t care less if I?m 10% Veneto-Liburnian, 15% Bessi Thracians, 7% Getae, 20% Autariatae, 5% Lucanian, and a remaining a bunch if 2% of everything else.

The locals of Viminacium are more likely to be Thracian than Illyrians. Some of them could have been educated officials from Mainland Ancient Greece like Athenians and Corinthians for all we know, yet their results are interesting.

In the future once all the data is released, I?d love to see where specifically in the PCA is a certain J2b2, E-V13, or R1b is located, as in more North and West, or more South and East for example.
 
First of all, there's no reason to use HRV_EBA and HRV_MBA when we have HRV_IA. Unless you think there's genetic continuity in the Dalmatian region from the Early Bronze Age..

Just like modern Greek mainlanders plot close to the Logkas samples by coincidence, it's a similar case with other Balkan populations as well. You're doing the same thing we've all been accusing the Clemente et al paper of doing, i.e. proposing continuity arguments that are easily disproven ("Logkas = modern Thessalonicans").

Since all modern southern Balkan groups form a cline, there's 2 ways for your argument to be true:

1) Albanians are pure descendants of early Iron Age Balkan populations and all other Balkanites (including Bulgarians) are basically Albanians themselves. Also, the Slavs never settled Thrace, Macedonia, Thessaly and the Peloponnese, nor did any other major upheaval happen.
2) Albanians are pure descendants of early Iron Age Balkan populations and they miraculously happen to fall on a cline with south Slavs and Greeks.

About point one I just wanted to point out that your logic is not sound. Misnomer at best. But it seems more like teist counterpoints to evolution, where they say so humans are descendent of apes. Thing is the point is moot, since we are talking about common ancestor, rather than direct descent. Thus no... Bulgarians do not have to be Albanians, for both peoples to have a common "evolutionary" path up to a point in history.

Hope people don't misunderstand this comment, since it can get nasty.

Alas if you are going to put the words of "pure" into Albanian talking points, I think that is not fair, since I have not seen one member make that point in this whole thread. In fact various PCAs posted among others by Albanians support partial/yet major continuity without making that point. PCAs from the paper itself as well as by amateurs.
UWGapSo.png

xwHbwBV.png

image.png
If nothing else refer to the Logkas paper, as well as the Minoan Lazaridis paper, which use Fstats, since I do share my reservations regarding 2d PCA angles in mapping 3d coordinates.

Edit: No idea if the spoiler tag will work to try to declutter my posts, and clearing browser chache doesn't seem to fix edit bug, where edits beyond the first fail.
 
I think that a lot of people are hung up on the terms Illyrian and Thracian. The designations were used mainly as geographical terms. We have no idea so far if they were the same genetically or even if they spoke the same language. To the Greeks they were just the barbarians to the northwest and the barbarians to the northeast.:LOL:.
 
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First of all, there's no reason to use HRV_EBA and HRV_MBA when we have HRV_IA. Unless you think there's genetic continuity in the Dalmatian region from the Early Bronze Age..

Just like modern Greek mainlanders plot close to the Logkas samples by coincidence, it's a similar case with other Balkan populations as well. You're doing the same thing we've all been accusing the Clemente et al paper of doing, i.e. proposing continuity arguments that are easily disproven ("Logkas = modern Thessalonicans").

Since all modern southern Balkan groups form a cline, there's 2 ways for your argument to be true:

1) Albanians are pure descendants of early Iron Age Balkan populations and all other Balkanites (including Bulgarians) are basically Albanians themselves. Also, the Slavs never settled Thrace, Macedonia, Thessaly and the Peloponnese, nor did any other major upheaval happen.
2) Albanians are pure descendants of early Iron Age Balkan populations and they miraculously happen to fall on a cline with south Slavs and Greeks.



You've not provided a single argument. Also.... looking at the spread of the IA balkans cluster in the viminacium paper you know better than to assume 1 iron-age sample can cover everything. Also explain to me where MJ12 came from. Was he a bell-beaker? What about the E-V13 Iron-Age scy197 who was found in Moldova???

Its funny how you think one of the most war-like people on earth were only 20% steppe, look at Burebista and say that again.
 
For me one good point extracted from the paper, and the most important one was the connection between E-V13 and cremation burials during Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age transition.

A good candidate for E-V13 in Central-South Albania is Trebeniste Culture, the likes of Enchelei-Dassareti, and their distant relatives Taulanti.
 
3% Combined I2a R1a.
that's quite remarkable, I imagine maternal side would have some slavic ancestry though, I remember reading malsors kidnapping brides as far as Bulgaria :LOL:
 
Edited by moderator.
 
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http://www.gjenetika.com/statistikat/
In Ghegs there is 7.5% I1, and R1a and I2a are 8.5% combined.
Most Slavic admixture in Albanians came after the Slavs were Christianized so that put things in prespective about those numbers.


Albanians were not affected by the Pagans Slavs (they did not have the Roman power to assimilate them) which reduced the Germanic lines in others and most of Slavic input in Albanians came after the Christinization so I2a and R1a lines in Southern Slavs were reduced too by then.



By comparison, on Rrenjet, out of 1181 samples, 7% is R1a, 7% I-Y3120, and I1 is only 5.9%

In Ghegs I1 is 5.5%, R1a is 6.7%, and I-Y3120 is 5%.

In Tosks I-Y3120 is 10.9%, R1a is 7.8%, and I1 is 6.8%. Also, before the projects split in 2, I-Y3120 and R1a were roughly around where they are at Rrenjet. I1 has a core area in the North and South which constitute most of the samples.

https://rrenjet.com/statistikat/
 

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