Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

bigsnake49 said:
Look I don't know who brought up the byzantine era authors but if you read them you got the impression that the population of Greece was completely replaced by Slavs first and then by Albanians. We already knew the percentages before, nothing new really. We already knew that between the Albanians, the Slavs and the Vlachs there was a substantial slavic input but the wholesale replacement idea needs to be shelved forever.
Click to expand...

It would be quite the thing for the Balkans to show pre-Slavic indigenous ancestry but the pre-Slavic mainland Greeks to be virtually totally replaced by people with a strong Anatolia Neolithic connection and closeness to Sicilians (Peloponnese).
 
Dushman said:
View attachment 12896
After reading all the pages, I thought perhaps to remind everyone on this chart.

Correct me if I?m wrong, but if the dark blue represents North-Eastern Europeans (in this case several Slavic ethnicities), then look at how much dark blue the French, North Italians, Spaniards, and French Basques have.

Considering it?s slightly lower in amount compared to Albanians (and North Macedonians), shouldn?t we assume that's mostly Steppe ancestry introduced by the Indo-Europeans. I don?t think anyone here assumes that?s actually Slavic and it was spread by the Goths.

Why in the case of the Albanians and Greeks that?s considered all Slavic input?

Similarly, from the chart below some modern Albanians fall within the range of the so-called Balkan Locals.
View attachment 12897

We also can?t say for certain that the urban Balkan locals inside these forts were pure blooded Illyro-Thracians and weren?t admixed with Italics, Greeks, or Anatolians, thus pulling them slightly more South.

But in any case, from the above chart it doesn?t seem that Albanians and Central Greeks are 30% Slavic in my opinion.

Please correct me if I?m wrong and I oversimplified things or I?m missing something.
Click to expand...
I was hoping someone will clarify/criticize my assumptions based on the first graph regarding the Dark Blue (Belarusian-like admixture) in the French, North Italians, Basque, and Spaniards.

Could it be spread by the Celts considering it?s so high among the French? I doubt anyone will say the French are 40% Slavic.
 
bigsnake49 said:
Look I don't know who brought up the byzantine era authors but if you read them you got the impression that the population of Greece was completely replaced by Slavs first and then by Albanians. We already knew the percentages before, nothing new really. We already knew that between the Albanians, the Slavs and the Vlachs there was a substantial slavic input but the wholesale replacement idea needs to be shelved forever.
Click to expand...
I don't think you understand what I meant.

Jovialis said:
I know it is irrelevant, but I find my labeling to be easier on the eyes and more aesthetically pleasing, than G25. :)
Click to expand...
Only one Empuriote sample in K12b is Mycenaean-like the other one is missing or it's Dodecab K12b fault.
Or maybe I have not found the second one.
Only one Empuriote sample in K12b is Mycenaean-like the other one is missing or it's Dodecab K12b fault.
Or maybe I have not found the second one.
Distance to:I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
10.41409622R50_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
10.42940075R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
11.17104740R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
11.18842706R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
11.54777901R115_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
11.71939418R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
12.18268443R850_Iron_Age_Ardea
12.37897815R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
12.46934641R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
12.49862392R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
12.52843167R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
12.54786834R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro
12.57320166R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
12.94739356R51_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
12.96999614R81_Imperial_Era_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis
13.34426843R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina
13.35137821R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
13.38819629R66_Imperial_Era_ANAS
13.41316890R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
13.42639937R34_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
13.52872130R1543_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
13.61693431I4383_Sicily_EBA_lowcov_Vallone_Inferno
13.68587593R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
13.80433990R1548_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo
13.95713438R123_Imperial_Era_Casale_del_Dolce
>=20 distance for the Myceaneans and the other Empuriote sample?

This one looks decent:

Distance to:I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
5.43020257Kumtepe006_Anatolian
5.90544664I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
6.55968749I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
6.57121754I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
6.87040756I3709_Peloponnese_Neolithic
6.94549494I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
6.95683118I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
7.41132242I0679_Krepost_Neolithic
7.47352661I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
7.54225430I7796_Sicily_EBA_Contrada_Paolina_Castellucciana
8.39773184I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
8.64060762ASH068_Iron_Age1
8.79411167I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
9.52458923I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
9.56981714I5769_Balkans_IronAge
10.15386133I2318_Peloponnese_Neolithic
10.33054210I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily
10.53601917I10366_Sardinia_IA_Usellus
10.83692300R44_Imperial_Era_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
10.86089775I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
10.92118583I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
10.92431234I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
11.02720726I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
11.05209935I0174_BAM25_Starcevo_EN_Alsónyék-Bátaszék_Mérnöki_telep_Hungary_5710-5530_calBCE
11.07927795I3708_Peloponnese_Neolithic

 
Jovialis said:
I know it is irrelevant, but I find my labeling to be easier on the eyes and more aesthetically pleasing, than G25. :)
Click to expand...
Only one Empuriote sample in K12b is Mycenaean-like the other one is missing or it's Dodecab K12b fault.
Or maybe I have not found the second one.
Distance to:I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
20.12460434I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
20.57252537I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
23.95033194I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
24.28607420I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis

Distance to:I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
5.90544664I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
6.95683118I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
7.47352661I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
10.92118583I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese

 
Angela said:
Even after all the steppe migrations that were supposed to change everything, they didn't move very far from Mycenaeans, did they?
Click to expand...

Absolutely, their closest match are Mycenaeans:

Distance to:I5769_Balkans_IronAge
5.67772842Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
5.93032883EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
13.09335328Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)
13.80974656Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
14.43563646Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
14.69415530Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
14.85965006Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)
14.95894716Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)
15.03327975Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
18.01312855LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)
18.37299105Bronze_Age_Illyrians
18.69769237Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)
20.03902193EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)
20.34402615LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)
20.69758198Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)
21.40577025Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)
21.50323929EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)
21.83782040Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
22.17196653Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)
22.18741761Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)
22.35692063MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)
23.59567121Middle_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy_(n=9)
23.84483592Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6)
24.58251004Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
25.08698069Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)


Indeed, there was remarkable continuity. It is fascinating to me, to speculate that C6-type ancestry stretched from the Balkans all the way to South and Central Italy during the Iron Age. We know these kind of people existed in Italy at the time, with samples like R437. The papers models them as mostly Aegean_IA related, which is very interesting. The Northern Balkans from samples we see in the Bronze Age, and as well as Italy also had a homogenous genetic cluster that stretch, when we compare Illyrians to Latins, Etruscans, Northern Italian Beakers, and so on. The mixing of these people is what creates two ends of the cline described in Aneli et al. 2021, broadly as Minoan + Roman Republican as a Pan-Mediterranean component

Together with Minoans and Roman Republicans, this component can be broadly modelled as a Pan-Mediterranean population (constituted by AN and IN/CHG components) with the addition of WHG and Steppe-related ancestry in Roman Republicans. -Aneli et al. 2021
Click to expand...

uCTrKCB.png


In the past, some people have dismissed the idea of a Pan-Mediterranean population as a social construct. But more and more, I believe we are seeing that it is a genetic-reality, with a broadly shared culture of Greco-Roman civilization.
 
ihype02 said:
Only one Empuriote sample in K12b is Mycenaean-like the other one is missing or it's Dodecab K12b fault.
Or maybe I have not found the second one.
Distance to:I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
20.12460434I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
20.57252537I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
23.95033194I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
24.28607420I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis

Distance to:I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
5.90544664I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
6.95683118I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
7.47352661I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
10.92118583I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
Click to expand...
This sample is missing, problem sloved. I8215 is not on K12b. I picked a wrong sample.
Distance to:Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215
0.03041607BGR_IA:I5769
0.03294806GRC_Mycenaean:I9041
0.03465425ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o:RMPR437b
0.03962671DEU_MA_Baiuvaric_o:STR_300
0.04203189GRC_Mycenaean:I9006
0.04218522ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR44
0.04235060GRC_Peloponnese_N:I3920
0.04274290ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR137
0.04290257GRC_Cycladic_EBA:Kou03
0.04291818BGR_Krepost_N:I0679_d
0.04307468HUN_MA_Szolad_o1:SZ19
0.04478291Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8208
0.04546564Levant_Ashkelon_IA1:ASH068
0.04552149ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
0.04572761GRC_Minoan_Lassithi:I0071
0.04634938ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR43
0.04713335ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR56
0.04740169ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR122
0.04872591HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ40
0.04891574ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR30
0.04950673GRC_Cycladic_EBA:Kou01
0.04976005ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance:RMPR973
0.04995105ITA_Sardinia_IA:I10366
0.05012257ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR40
0.05020653ITA_Rome_Imperial:RMPR39

 
G25 vs K12b
G25:
Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 3.0537% / 0.03053667
64.0Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
36.0Polish
K12b:

Target: Greek_Peloponnese
Distance: 8.3444% / 8.34442303
64.9I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
35.1Polish

The fit is tighter with the G25, but the percentage are nearly the same.
 
Jovialis said:
Absolutely, their closest match are Mycenaeans:

Distance to:I5769_Balkans_IronAge
5.67772842Mycenaean_Greece_(n=4)
5.93032883EMBA_Greece_(n=6)
13.09335328Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=14)
13.80974656Bronze_Age_Sicily_(n=15)
14.43563646Minoan_Greece_(n=10)
14.69415530Early_Neolithic_Greece_(n=3)
14.85965006Early_Neolithic_Anatolia_(n=20)
14.95894716Early_Neolithic_Starcevo_culture_(n=8)
15.03327975Chalcolithic_Bulgaria_(n=9)
18.01312855LN_Lengyel_culture_(n=8)
18.37299105Bronze_Age_Illyrians
18.69769237Middle_Bronze_Age_Anatolia_(n=2)
20.03902193EN_LBK_culture_(n=43)
20.34402615LN_Tisza-Sopot_culture_(n=11)
20.69758198Middle_Chalcolithic_Hungary_(n=9)
21.40577025Late_Chalcolithic_Baden_culture_(n=14)
21.50323929EN_Alfold_Linear_Pottery_culture_(n=20)
21.83782040Early_Neolithic_Italy_(n=10)
22.17196653Middle_Neolithic_Sicily_(n=10)
22.18741761Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture_(n=4)
22.35692063MN_Vinca_culture_(n=6)
23.59567121Middle_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy_(n=9)
23.84483592Chalcolithic_North_Levant_(n=6)
24.58251004Early_Neolithic_France_(n=4)
25.08698069Mesolithic_Anatolia_(AHG)_(n=1)

Indeed, there was remarkable continuity. It is fascinating to me, to speculate that C6-type ancestry stretched from the Balkans all the way to South and Central Italy during the Iron Age. We know these kind of people existed in Italy at the time, with samples like R437. The papers models them as mostly Aegean_IA related, which is very interesting. The Northern Balkans from samples we see in the Bronze Age, and as well as Italy also had a homogenous genetic cluster that stretch, when we compare Illyrians to Latins, Etruscans, Northern Italian Beakers, and so on. The mixing of these people is what creates two ends of the cline described in Aneli et al. 2021, broadly as Minoan + Roman Republican as a Pan-Mediterranean component



uCTrKCB.png


In the past, some people have dismissed the idea of a Pan-Mediterranean population as a social construct. But more and more, I believe we are seeing that it is a genetic-reality, with a broadly shared culture of Greco-Roman civilization.
Click to expand...

Completely agree, Jovialis. Remember way back when they found those Thracian samples that were described as vaguely modern "Tuscan like" because they only used the 1000 Genomes data. I postulated that despite all the so called "replacement" or "wipe out" by the steppe admixed people, there were still people in the Balkans who weren't changed all that much. The usual suspects, including Eurogenes, insisted they were just some slave left overs. WRONG.

Here's the proof. Now let's see if the same was true of Southern Italy and Sicily.

The Slavic migrations, which didn't hit Italy, definitely changed things in the Balkans and even to some degree in Greece, but I have no idea where people are getting this "no continuity" balderdash. It's absolutely refuted by the data.
 
px52bNo.png


I was comparing some samples and something interesting happens when you add Catacomb culture.

These fits are very good.

Code: 
Roman_Republican:Latini_IA:R851:Antonio_2019,1.08,0,1.52,0,49.35,25.19,0,0,1.78,0,20.65,0.44
Roman_Republican:Latini_IA:R1016:Antonio_2019,3.25,1.53,0.94,0,47.98,19.32,1.2,0,3.3,0,22.38,0.1
Roman_Republican:Latini_IA:R1021:Antonio_2019,1.77,0,0.94,0.76,48.63,23.97,0,0.15,1.54,0,21.8,0.44
Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R473:Antonio_2019,1.01,0.23,0.57,0,47.29,22.71,0,0.37,6.95,0.11,20.11,0.66
Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019,6.73,0,1.43,0.32,39.73,25.66,0,0.13,5.53,0,19.64,0.85
Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0.62,0.55,37.53,0,0,0,15.52,0,45.7,0.09
Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017,1.16,0,2.96,0,37.9,0.23,0,0,13.01,0,44.59,0.15
Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017,0,0.05,2.92,0.4,36.38,0,0,0,13.48,0,46.7,0.07
Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017,0.58,0,4.33,0,39.44,0,0,0,12.45,0,43.19,0
Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.25,0.08
Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0,0,40.33,0,0,1.41,8.2,0,50.06,0
Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017,6.38,2.36,3.13,0,48.96,0,0,0,14.8,1.02,23.34,0
Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,4.55,0,44.82,0,0,0,13.21,0,37.43,0
Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017,1.38,0,0.19,0,41.77,0,0,0.28,17.61,0,38.77,0
Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017,5.16,0,0,0,36.32,0,0,0,19.19,0,39.01,0.33
Minoan:Minoan_Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017,3.38,0,1.25,0,36.32,5.47,0,0,7.73,1.07,44.26,0.51
Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,3.66,1.15,38.24,6.6,0.59,0.65,13.92,0,35.19,0
Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017,1.55,1.33,2.36,0,39.11,8.61,2.19,0,7.76,0,34.35,2.74
Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017,3.15,0,2.41,0,37.19,8.87,0,0,10.69,0,37.17,0.52
Balkans_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018,2.57,0,2.28,0,37.94,13.19,0,0,9.59,0.01,34.31,0.12
Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019,25.71,4.68,0,0.61,7.93,55.69,0,0,0,0,2.4,2.97
Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019,29.97,2.83,0,0.37,3.73,54.49,1.01,0,0,0,5.99,1.62
Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019,26.39,2.57,0,0,2.96,54.74,2.09,0,0,0,10.33,0.92
Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019,29.4,1.88,0,0,2.25,59.81,0.86,0,0,0,5.54,0.24
Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019,28.23,2.3,0,0,0.76,59.25,1.7,0,0,0,6.52,1.23
 
Jovialis: My fits using coordinates from your post 271. My fit is 1.046, well in line with the average 1.36 you showed for all Italian regions. Your model for Sicily gets 76.6% for Sicily where I get similar in total 79% but from both Minoan and Mycenean sources.

TargetDistance | ADC: 0.25x RCMinoanMycenaeanCatacombBalkans_IARoman_Republican
PalermoTrapani_Combined1.04677600•48.830.420.80.00.0
Average1.04677600•48.830.420.80.00.0

Better fit with oujt the 0.25X RC

argetDistanceBalkans_IA
Catacomb
Minoan
Mycenaean
Roman_Republican
PalermoTrapani_Combined0.70131449•
0.020.055.324.70.0
Average0.70131449•
0.020.055.324.70.0
RESET SORTINGCOPY TABLE AS CSVCOPY TABLE AS TSV
 
Last edited:
Jovialis said:
px52bNo.png


I was comparing some samples and something interesting happens when you add Catacomb culture.

These fits are very good.

Code: 
Roman_Republican:Latini_IA:R851:Antonio_2019,1.08,0,1.52,0,49.35,25.19,0,0,1.78,0,20.65,0.44
Roman_Republican:Latini_IA:R1016:Antonio_2019,3.25,1.53,0.94,0,47.98,19.32,1.2,0,3.3,0,22.38,0.1
Roman_Republican:Latini_IA:R1021:Antonio_2019,1.77,0,0.94,0.76,48.63,23.97,0,0.15,1.54,0,21.8,0.44
Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R473:Antonio_2019,1.01,0.23,0.57,0,47.29,22.71,0,0.37,6.95,0.11,20.11,0.66
Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019,6.73,0,1.43,0.32,39.73,25.66,0,0.13,5.53,0,19.64,0.85
Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0.62,0.55,37.53,0,0,0,15.52,0,45.7,0.09
Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017,1.16,0,2.96,0,37.9,0.23,0,0,13.01,0,44.59,0.15
Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017,0,0.05,2.92,0.4,36.38,0,0,0,13.48,0,46.7,0.07
Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017,0.58,0,4.33,0,39.44,0,0,0,12.45,0,43.19,0
Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017,1.52,0,5.68,0,37.33,0,0,0,16.14,0,39.25,0.08
Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,0,0,40.33,0,0,1.41,8.2,0,50.06,0
Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9128:Lazaridis_2017,6.38,2.36,3.13,0,48.96,0,0,0,14.8,1.02,23.34,0
Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,4.55,0,44.82,0,0,0,13.21,0,37.43,0
Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017,1.38,0,0.19,0,41.77,0,0,0.28,17.61,0,38.77,0
Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017,5.16,0,0,0,36.32,0,0,0,19.19,0,39.01,0.33
Minoan:Minoan_Petras_EBA:Pta08:Clemente_2021,0,0,3.85,0.33,34.73,0.38,0.14,0.05,14.68,0.48,43.65,1.72
Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017,3.38,0,1.25,0,36.32,5.47,0,0,7.73,1.07,44.26,0.51
Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017,0,0,3.66,1.15,38.24,6.6,0.59,0.65,13.92,0,35.19,0
Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017,1.55,1.33,2.36,0,39.11,8.61,2.19,0,7.76,0,34.35,2.74
Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017,3.15,0,2.41,0,37.19,8.87,0,0,10.69,0,37.17,0.52
Balkans_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018,2.57,0,2.28,0,37.94,13.19,0,0,9.59,0.01,34.31,0.12
Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019,25.71,4.68,0,0.61,7.93,55.69,0,0,0,0,2.4,2.97
Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019,29.97,2.83,0,0.37,3.73,54.49,1.01,0,0,0,5.99,1.62
Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019,26.39,2.57,0,0,2.96,54.74,2.09,0,0,0,10.33,0.92
Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019,29.4,1.88,0,0,2.25,59.81,0.86,0,0,0,5.54,0.24
Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019,28.23,2.3,0,0,0.76,59.25,1.7,0,0,0,6.52,1.23
Click to expand...

I always thought perhaps Catacomb culture might have been a good fit for the "original" Greeks. I have to think about how that would fit into this. Maybe Catacomb an Minoan is a good fit for them? or for the admixture of a certain kind of steppe with old Europe populations?
 
ihype02 said:
I don't think you understand what I meant.


Only one Empuriote sample in K12b is Mycenaean-like the other one is missing or it's Dodecab K12b fault.
Or maybe I have not found the second one.
Only one Empuriote sample in K12b is Mycenaean-like the other one is missing or it's Dodecab K12b fault.
Or maybe I have not found the second one.
Distance to:I8205_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
10.41409622R50_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
10.42940075R114_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
11.17104740R59_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
11.18842706R58_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
11.54777901R115_Imperial_Era_Via_Paisiello_Necropolis
11.71939418R107_Late_Antiquity_Crypta_Balbi
12.18268443R850_Iron_Age_Ardea
12.37897815R57_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
12.46934641R35_Late_Antiquity_Celio
12.49862392R53_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
12.52843167R65_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
12.54786834R136_Imperial_Era_Marcellino_&_Pietro
12.57320166R1544_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
12.94739356R51_Imperial_Era_Centocelle_Necropolis
12.96999614R81_Imperial_Era_Viale_Rossini_Necropolis
13.34426843R436_Imperial_Era_Palestrina
13.35137821R1290_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
13.38819629R66_Imperial_Era_ANAS
13.41316890R54_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
13.42639937R34_Late_Antiquity_Mausole_di_Augusto
13.52872130R1543_Imperial_Era_Necropolis_of_Monte_Agnese
13.61693431I4383_Sicily_EBA_lowcov_Vallone_Inferno
13.68587593R60_Medieval_Era_Villa_Magna
13.80433990R1548_Imperial_Era_Monterotondo
13.95713438R123_Imperial_Era_Casale_del_Dolce
>=20 distance for the Myceaneans and the other Empuriote sample?

This one looks decent:

Distance to:I8208_NE_Iberia_Hel_Empuries2
5.43020257Kumtepe006_Anatolian
5.90544664I9041_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
6.55968749I0071_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
6.57121754I0074_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
6.87040756I3709_Peloponnese_Neolithic
6.94549494I9005_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
6.95683118I9006_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Agia_Kyriaki_Salamis
7.41132242I0679_Krepost_Neolithic
7.47352661I9010_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Galatas_Apatheia_Peloponnese
7.54225430I7796_Sicily_EBA_Contrada_Paolina_Castellucciana
8.39773184I0070_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
8.64060762ASH068_Iron_Age1
8.79411167I0073_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Hagios_Charalambos_Cave_Lasithi_Crete
9.52458923I9129_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
9.56981714I5769_Balkans_IronAge
10.15386133I2318_Peloponnese_Neolithic
10.33054210I4930_Bronze_Age_Beaker_Sicily
10.53601917I10366_Sardinia_IA_Usellus
10.83692300R44_Imperial_Era_Isola_Sacra_Necropolis
10.86089775I9130_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
10.92118583I9033_Bronze_Age_Mycenaean_Peristeria_Tryfilia_Peloponnese
10.92431234I2937_Greece_Neolithic_Diros_Alepotrypa_Cave
11.02720726I9131_Bronze_Age_Minoan_Moni_Odigitria_Heraklion_Crete
11.05209935I0174_BAM25_Starcevo_EN_Alsónyék-Bátaszék_Mérnöki_telep_Hungary_5710-5530_calBCE
11.07927795I3708_Peloponnese_Neolithic
Click to expand...

You are assuming that the first Empuries sample is Greek? It could be a Phoenician trader, a slave or a local. Those are the vagaries of samples you have no idea who they were and unless you get isotope ID you will make the wrong conclusions.
 
thanks jovialis (y)

i notice north and central italian need the balkan iron age :unsure:



Distance to:adam
4.4012581072.20% Minoan:Minoan_Petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021 + 27.80% Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019
4.4085486473.40% Minoan:Minoan_Petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021 + 26.60% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019
4.4150078873.60% Minoan:Minoan_Petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021 + 26.40% Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019
4.5597743771.20% Minoan:Minoan_Petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021 + 28.80% Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019
4.9729958471.60% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 28.40% Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019
5.1798077573.80% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 26.20% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019
5.5842951074.00% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 26.00% Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019
5.6158953570.20% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017 + 29.80% Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019
5.7438590772.80% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 27.20% Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019
5.7510032171.40% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017 + 28.60% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019
5.7792544372.40% Minoan:Minoan_Petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021 + 27.60% Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019
5.8410788471.60% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017 + 28.40% Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019
5.9885213369.20% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017 + 30.80% Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019
6.0797757269.80% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017 + 30.20% Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019
6.1149267471.20% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017 + 28.80% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019
6.1814491372.20% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 27.80% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019
6.2159950768.80% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017 + 31.20% Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019
6.2957059071.40% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017 + 28.60% Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019
6.3188639870.00% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 30.00% Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019
6.3434593072.60% Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017 + 27.40% Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019
6.3738408071.00% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 29.00% Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019
6.4278284172.40% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 27.60% Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019
6.6025491370.40% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017 + 29.60% Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019
6.6162536774.80% Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017 + 25.20% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019
6.8938871271.80% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 28.20% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019

Target: adam
Distance: 4.0570% / 4.05701370
73.8Minoan
26.2Catacomb
 
Angela said:
I always thought perhaps Catacomb culture might have been a good fit for the "original" Greeks. I have to think about how that would fit into this. Maybe Catacomb an Minoan is a good fit for them? or for the admixture of a certain kind of steppe with old Europe populations?
Click to expand...

Perhaps in the Bronze Age, in Southern Italy the population there was Minoan-like, and admixed with a Catacomb Culture-like population, to form the Iron Age populations that resemble C6-type ancestry.

Catacomb burials are sometimes accompanied by wheeled vehicles. Such wagon burials are attested in the earlier Yamnaya culture, and later among Iranian peoples (Scythians), Celts and Italic peoples.[21]
...
Evidence of Catacomb influence has been discovered far outside of the Pontic steppe. Its burial chambers, metal types and figurines are very similar to those appearing in Italy and the eastern Mediterranean, while the hammer-head pin, a characteristic ornament of the Catacomb culture, has been found in Central Europe and Italy. Based on these similarities, migrations or cultural diffusion from the Catacomb culture to these areas have been suggested.[1] Similarities between the Catacomb culture and Mycenaean Greece are particularly striking. These include types of socketed spear-heads, types of cheekpieces for horses, and the custom of making masks for the dead.[13]
...
David Anthony (2007: 306) assumes that the Catacomb culture was Indo-European-speaking.[39] It has sometimes been considered ancestral to Indo-Iranian[40][41][8] or Thracian.[1] More recently, scholars have suggested that the culture provided a common background for Greek, Armenian and Indo-Iranian.[1][13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacomb_culture
Click to expand...
 
Distance to:Jovialis
1.5848257171.60% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 28.40% Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019
1.9371465771.40% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 28.60% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019
2.3004637970.20% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 29.80% Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019
2.3839186270.20% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 29.80% Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019
2.4522015369.20% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 30.80% Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019
2.5024867670.00% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017 + 30.00% Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019
2.5899781581.80% Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017 + 18.20% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019
2.6057771380.20% Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017 + 19.80% Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019
2.6936190782.00% Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017 + 18.00% Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019
2.7308617180.80% Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017 + 19.20% Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019
2.8285053871.80% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 28.20% Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019
3.1094354869.20% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017 + 30.80% Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019
3.2094325670.40% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 29.60% Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019
3.2205593471.00% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 29.00% Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019
3.2432578371.60% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 28.40% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019
3.2833444173.40% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 26.60% Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019
3.4167164273.20% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 26.80% Catacomb:SA6003:Wang_2019
3.6384962569.00% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017 + 31.00% Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019
3.6760666069.40% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017 + 30.60% Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019
3.6835759771.00% Minoan:Minoan_Petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021 + 29.00% Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019
3.6978161181.00% Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017 + 19.00% Catacomb:MJ-09:Jarve_2019
3.7706673876.60% Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017 + 23.40% Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019
3.9001375072.00% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017 + 28.00% Catacomb:MK3003:Wang_2019
4.0623075668.40% Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017 + 31.60% Catacomb:RK4001:Wang_2019
4.1063431972.60% Minoan:Minoan_Petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021 + 27.40% Catacomb:RK4002:Wang_2019

 
Jovialis said:
Perhaps in the Bronze Age, in Southern Italy the population there was Minoan-like, and admixed with a Catacomb Culture-like population, to form the Iron Age populations that resemble C6-type ancestry.
Click to expand...
I have suspected that. The Bronze Age Western Sicilians fall intermediate between Sardinians and Minoans but leaning Sardinians. (The ones in the red squares.)
The Beaker was introduced in Sicily from Sardinia and spread mainly in the north-west and south-west of the island. In the northwest and in the Palermo kept almost intact its cultural and social characteristics, while in the south-west there was a strong integration with local cultures.[109] The only known single bell-shaped glass in eastern Sicily was found in Syracuse.[109]
It appears likely that Sardinia was the intermediary that brought Beaker materials to Sicily.[108]



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Beaker_culture#Sicily

R61sPGU.png

L6Lchtm.png

Maybe Eastern Sicilians were like the outlier named Bell_Beaker_Sicily. The Bell Beaker culture is absent from nearly all of Southern Italy and Eastern Sicily.
Map_of_Italian_Bell_Beaker_sites.jpg

Target: ITA_Sicily_MN
Distance: 3.4547% / 0.03454716

73.8Sardinian
24.6GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
1.6GRC_Minoan_EBA

Target: ITA_Sicily_MBA
Distance: 1.2543% / 0.01254264

56.6Sardinian
31.8GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
11.6GRC_Minoan_EBA

Target: ITA_Sicily_LBA
Distance: 1.9301% / 0.01930107

57.2Sardinian
42.8GRC_Minoan_EBA

Target: ITA_Sicily_EBA
Distance: 2.9696% / 0.02969636

87.6Sardinian
12.4GRC_Minoan_EBA

The Minoan-like ancestry increases from 13% in Early Bronze Age to 43% in Late Bronze, perphaps the new commers became more admixed with natives by the time passed.
 
Mine:

Distance to:Angela
2.1554989075.80% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 24.20% Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9127:Lazaridis_2017
2.5294862373.20% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 26.80% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0074:Lazaridis_2017
2.5887423658.80% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 41.20% Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017
2.8231255274.00% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 26.00% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0071:Lazaridis_2017
2.9057976670.40% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 29.60% Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
2.9457849752.60% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 47.40% Balkans_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
2.9887226275.40% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 24.60% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0073:Lazaridis_2017
3.1271723162.20% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 37.80% Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
3.2185079871.60% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 28.40% Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9129:Lazaridis_2017
3.3757266575.60% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 24.40% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I0070:Lazaridis_2017
3.6499752274.80% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 25.20% Minoan:Minoan_Petras_EBA:pta08:Clemente_2021
3.7893807965.60% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 34.40% Mycenaean:I9010:Lazaridis_2017
3.9184480673.40% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 26.60% Minoan:Minoan_Lasithi:I9005:Lazaridis_2017
4.0629204548.20% Roman_Republican:Latini_IA:R1021:Antonio_2019 + 51.80% Balkans_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
4.1252866544.80% Roman_Republican:Latini_IA:R851:Antonio_2019 + 55.20% Balkans_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
4.1534801273.80% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 26.20% Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9130:Lazaridis_2017
4.4479163556.00% Roman_Republican:Latini_IA:R1016:Antonio_2019 + 44.00% Balkans_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
4.6503590758.60% Roman_Republican:Latini_IA:R1021:Antonio_2019 + 41.40% Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
4.6784241055.20% Roman_Republican:Latini_IA:R851:Antonio_2019 + 44.80% Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
4.7484635250.40% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R473:Antonio_2019 + 49.60% Balkans_IA:I5769:Mathieson_2018
5.0285349375.40% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R474:Antonio_2019 + 24.60% Minoan:Minoan_Odigitria:I9131:Lazaridis_2017
5.3311190661.40% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R473:Antonio_2019 + 38.60% Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
5.3428368067.20% Roman_Republican:Latini_IA:R1016:Antonio_2019 + 32.80% Mycenaean:I9041:Lazaridis_2017
5.3736146170.00% Roman_Republican:Etruscan_IA:R473:Antonio_2019 + 30.00% Mycenaean:I9006:Lazaridis_2017
5.6377509455.40% Roman_Republican:Latini_IA:R1021:Antonio_2019 + 44.60% Mycenaean:I9033:Lazaridis_2017

The steppe is subsumed in the Etruscan and then it shows the excess Minoan farmers. So nice...Etruscans and Minoans have always been my favorite civilizations. :)

TargetDistanceCatacomb
Minoan
Mycenaean
Roman_Republican
Angela0.82069329•
11.834.90.652.7
Average0.82069329•
11.834.90.652.7
 
bigsnake49 said:
Look I don't know who brought up the byzantine era authors but if you read them you got the impression that the population of Greece was completely replaced by Slavs first and then by Albanians. We already knew the percentages before, nothing new really. We already knew that between the Albanians, the Slavs and the Vlachs there was a substantial slavic input but the wholesale replacement idea needs to be shelved forever.
Click to expand...

If the conclusions of this paper for the Slavic influence stand the discussion is logically open. The Byzantine era authors were right for most of the Balkans. If Greece is an exemption, that is probably due to Byzantine Empire that did not lose its hold completely and was able to re-establish its authority later.



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum
 
My GOD, there was no REPLACEMENT anywhere in the Balkans! There were just different levels of Slavic ADMIXTURE in the Balkans and Greece.
 
Angela said:
It was already clear from the paper on the Peloponnese that the Maniotes, and after them the Tsakonians, were very close to Southern Italians.

I've been saying for eight years, mainly based on analyses done by Dienekes which have been all but forgotten, that Southern Italians would turn out to be closer to the ancient Greeks than modern mainland Greeks.* The Island Greeks are also close. I didn't need to wait for Agamemnon to figure it out.

When I think how they excoriated him for being wrong about about so many things. Well, he was wrong about some, everybody is, but it's actually extraordinary how spot on he was about so many things, and all without ancient dna. There's no substitute for a fine, analytical mind and superior statistical skills.

*That doesn't necessarily mean, of course, that it's all down to Magna Graecia. Different ethnicities can plot near one another not because one completely descends from the other, but because they share similar proportions of ancient clusters. Likewise, it doesn't mean that there wasn't some gene flow from one to the other. Or, they might have been rather similar even before the migration of one to the other.

That's what ancient dna is for....
Click to expand...

All this reminds me of the map of Cavalli Sforza which was made in the late 80s. He noticed a cline of genes around Greece. Now we know that IA Balkanians were similar to them.

pc4.jpg

It seems that the people around Greece were genetically similar to Greeks. And you can still see the biological traces of that.

All these people were genetically similar at one point. As the Greek speaking wanderers expanded, they linguistically absorbed the people around the Aegean. The ones who didn't speak Greek were not part of this Greek ethnogenesis. But they weren't necessarily different biologically. I believe Dienekes argued this once as well. Seems he was right.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 184367 times.

Back
Top