Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

[Archetype0ne]

https://i.imgur.com/A5Vnyfy.png

 

[Jovialis]

Albanians were Southern Italian-like until they received about 20% Slavic admixture it seems, to me.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Not entirely sure why you think that. Tried to look at the PCA to get the idea, but failed somehow.
Do not think 20% EM Slav CZE , or Avar Szolad would push the South Italian points to the current Albanian cluster.

Then again the program does the clines on its own. https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Europe2
You just need samples to curate the samples.

The Green Cline is Greece Helladic MBA. Albanians fall on that cline.
Meanwhile HRV IA literally falls on the Albanian cline.

Not sure. If you think some South Italian Cluster + 20 EM Slavic CZE would give you such results. But looking at the zoomed out screens, I highly doubt it.

 

[Angela]

Interesting. Thanks

Yes, bones sometimes don't necessarily mean bones. (the words bones in that sentence have different meanings, hope someone gets the pun).
And also the way autosomal makeup changes exponentially in a different autosomal environment also might complicate autosomal comparisons. Not to mention as you said economies, once economies don't support urban centers anymore (times of cirisis of whatever kind), the signal wanes off, while the more resilient periphery keeps doing what they always did.

I agree, I also do not think we will find as North Shifted mainlanders from ancient times, or if we do I will be very surprised.
But I am sure Log02 like people or even ones with more northern shift is entirely possible. Keep in mind my closest match is 2-3x closer than any other ancient sample and it comes from the Etruscan paper (which I think has the presentation this week in Kiel*). So there is a chance of similar auDNA at least in Roman times.

Lastly, I think it would be more unreasonable for Levantine like populations not to show up in Greece then for them to show up. As you seem to be familiar with the bible. I mean apostles were preaching in Macedonia, that is considered North Mainland Greece (Timothy, Thessalonians, Philippians, Corinthians, Romans, Acts... https://biblehub.com/topical/m/macedonia.htm) In fact both Stobi and Western Anatolia had large Jewish communities. They must have left a trace. And say in places like Thessaloniki I think they did.
About intermixing, I am not sure, but just the fact that L283 is an important Kohanim line in Judaism, leaves one to believe that there must have been some intermixing. Also I think culturally in more orthodox Judaism, for one to be Jewish, the mothers side is the more important side. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

But thanks for explaining your train of thought. I empathize more with you position now.

Edit:

A few missionaries aren't going to change the autosomal signature of any decent sized group anywhere.

 

[Angela]

There is no reason for us to be BGR_IA + Slavic. The PCA says all; Albanians descend from Illyrians + Steppe heavy eastern balkaners: but I'm suppose to believe we are actually descended from near easterners + slavs, and somehow maintained our culture and spirit through that admixture... also the uniparentals don't support near-east introgression. I think Albos do have near-east potentially from *some* assimilation of urban people, as the proto-albanians expanded (but we would also have slavic + vlach aswell), but implying we underwent a massive population shift is nonsensical.

i . imgur . com /fWaQuq7 .png
imgur . com /a/e0Xnp0c

What are you talking about????

Did you read the paper? Where did it say the Balkanites were descended from the wealthy Near Eastern cluster of, probably, administrators etc? They specifically said they WEREN'T.

If you're talking about the make up of the Balkan Iron Age cluster have you never heard that Greece and the Balkans were populated by farmers from Anatolia in the Neolithic ( given that the Balkans were one of the few places where you couldn't find many hunter-gatherers at all, except up by the gates)??? They formed the great culture known as "Old Europe", master metal workers,, builders of cities and artists. Now they're people to be proud of...

Where on earth have you been for the last seven years or so?

In terms of the Illyrians, Northeastern Italians are closer to Illyrians than the Albanians are. Heck, I'm part Tuscan and I'M closer to the Illyrians than the Albanians are...I'm also really close to the admixed Scythians, and I'm way to the west of the east/west divide in Italy.

As for those "steppe heavy" Eastern Balkans populations, unless you have a crystal ball there's no way in hell you know what they were like autosomally, because we don't have any samples from them.

I haven't read such an unsupported post in ages. Congratulations.

Stop spreading baseless and erroneous information on this thread.

 

[Jovialis]

Roman_Republic_IA_(n=5),2.768,0.352,1.08,0.216,46.596,23.37,0.24,0.13,3.82,0.022,20.916,0.498
Minoan_BA_(n=11),1.470909091,0.219090909,2.566363636,0.116363636,39.59181818,0.055454545,0.012727273,0.158181818,14.39,0.136363636,41.06272727,0.221818182
Mycenaean_BA_(n=4),2.02,0.3325,2.42,0.2875,37.715,7.3875,0.695,0.1625,10.025,0.2675,37.7425,0.9425
Balkans_IA,2.57,0,2.28,0,37.94,13.19,0,0,9.59,0.01,34.31,0.12
Catacomb_Culture_BA_(n=5),27.94,2.852,0,0.196,3.526,56.796,1.132,0,0,0,6.156,1.396
Hungarian_BA_(n=2),0.545,0,0.19,0,40.905,48.18,0,0,1.87,0,8.135,0.18

Italians come out better with this combo, than any other population in the world. Except for German, which takes a big share from Bronze Age Hungary.

Look at the distances.

I think I may be on to something here.

 

[Angela]

Interesting. Thanks

Yes, bones sometimes don't necessarily mean bones. (the words bones in that sentence have different meanings, hope someone gets the pun).
And also the way autosomal makeup changes exponentially in a different autosomal environment also might complicate autosomal comparisons. Not to mention as you said economies, once economies don't support urban centers anymore (times of cirisis of whatever kind), the signal wanes off, while the more resilient periphery keeps doing what they always did.

I agree, I also do not think we will find as North Shifted mainlanders from ancient times, or if we do I will be very surprised.
But I am sure Log02 like people or even ones with more northern shift is entirely possible. Keep in mind my closest match is 2-3x closer than any other ancient sample and it comes from the Etruscan paper (which I think has the presentation this week in Kiel*). So there is a chance of similar auDNA at least in Roman times.

Lastly, I think it would be more unreasonable for Levantine like populations not to show up in Greece then for them to show up. As you seem to be familiar with the bible. I mean apostles were preaching in Macedonia, that is considered North Mainland Greece (Timothy, Thessalonians, Philippians, Corinthians, Romans, Acts... https://biblehub.com/topical/m/macedonia.htm) In fact both Stobi and Western Anatolia had large Jewish communities. They must have left a trace. And say in places like Thessaloniki I think they did.
About intermixing, I am not sure, but just the fact that L283 is an important Kohanim line in Judaism, leaves one to believe that there must have been some intermixing. Also I think culturally in more orthodox Judaism, for one to be Jewish, the mothers side is the more important side. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

But thanks for explaining your train of thought. I empathize more with you position now.

Edit:

Even when speculating it's good to have some facts to hang the speculation on...

It doesn't matter which areas had Jewish communities and which didn't. They didn't want to admix with us unless it was a question of taking a woman as a wife, and she had to convert first.

Tracing "Jewishness" through the female line is something that developed after the Classical Era.

The only way that Jewish genes flowed into the Gentile population is IF it was a time of persecution and the Jews converted temporarily in order to save their lives. When all the Jews were expelled from Spain, some stayed behind under pretense of conversion. However, a lot of them were rooted out by the Inquisition, so what's probably left is some yDna. Heck, even with the Belmonte Jews, even when they'd lost all the liturgy and only had a vague memory of their Jewish roots, they still mostly intermarried only with each other. That was, to be fair, probably also to do with the fact that the surrounding Gentiles had long memories and were afraid to ally themselves with them through marriage. You can see them way out in no man's land on a PCA, close to Ashkenazim, and nowhere near Iberians.

 

[Francis Drake]

What are you talking about????

Did you read the paper? Where did it say the Balkanites were descended from the wealthy Near Eastern cluster of, probably, administrators etc? They specifically said they WEREN'T.

If you're talking about the make up of the Balkan Iron Age cluster have you never heard that Greece and the Balkans were populated by farmers from Anatolia in the Neolithic ( given that the Balkans were one of the few places where you couldn't find many hunter-gatherers at all, except up by the gates)??? They formed the great culture known as "Old Europe", master metal workers,, builders of cities and artists. Now they're people to be proud of...

Where on earth have you been for the last seven years or so?

In terms of the Illyrians, Northeastern Italians are closer to Illyrians than the Albanians are. Heck, I'm part Tuscan and I'M closer to the Illyrians than the Albanians are...I'm also really close to the admixed Scythians, and I'm way to the west of the east/west divide in Italy.


As for those "steppe heavy" Eastern Balkans populations, unless you have a crystal ball there's no way in hell you know what they were like autosomally, because we don't have any samples from them.

I haven't read such an unsupported post in ages. Congratulations.

Stop spreading baseless and erroneous information on this thread.

Those eastern balkans samples are mj_12, scy197, scy192. Presumably dacians/getae.

I was speaking against people like peloponessian in the thread though, who *did* say they were descended from them. As for Illyrians, many Albanians are on the HRV:EBA sample or HRV_IA, though I think we are dacians/thracians rather than Illyrians anyways. I was morso speaking to tail-influence.... also you are pretending I didn't post any PCAs.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Roman_Republic_IA_(n=5),2.768,0.352,1.08,0.216,46.596,23.37,0.24,0.13,3.82,0.022,20.916,0.498
Minoan_BA_(n=11),1.470909091,0.219090909,2.566363636,0.116363636,39.59181818,0.055454545,0.012727273,0.158181818,14.39,0.136363636,41.06272727,0.221818182
Mycenaean_BA_(n=4),2.02,0.3325,2.42,0.2875,37.715,7.3875,0.695,0.1625,10.025,0.2675,37.7425,0.9425
Balkans_IA,2.57,0,2.28,0,37.94,13.19,0,0,9.59,0.01,34.31,0.12
Catacomb_Culture_BA_(n=5),27.94,2.852,0,0.196,3.526,56.796,1.132,0,0,0,6.156,1.396
Hungarian_BA_(n=2),0.545,0,0.19,0,40.905,48.18,0,0,1.87,0,8.135,0.18

Italians come out better with this combo, than any other population in the world. Except for German, which takes a big share from Bronze Age Hungary.

Look at the distances.

I think I may be on to something here.

Very nice model. Catacomb. I did not think of that.
Alas, I am sure you are onto something, I am just not sure what.

Cause as you see the Albanian, and Kosovar Albanian model 70 Balkan IA + 20 Catacomb. Given catacomb is BA Ukraine/Moldova... I really do not think it means what you initially implied it means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacomb_culture

That Albanians need some richer in Steppe ancestry pop to pull them to where they plot from Balkan IA I agree. But that this pop is medieval Slavs I find ridiculous.

 

[Angela]

Those eastern balkans samples are mj_12, scy197, scy192. Presumably dacians/getae.

I was speaking against people like peloponessian in the thread though, who *did* say they were descended from them. As for Illyrians, many Albanians are on the HRV:EBA sample or HRV_IA, though I think we are dacians/thracians rather than Illyrians anyways. I was morso speaking to tail-influence.... also you are pretending I didn't post any PCAs.

You don't PRESUME something like that. Where is the archaeological evidence?

This isn't the neighborhood bar or pub where you can just shoot the breeze. We're supposed to back up the things we say here.

Plus, like I said, I get good matches from them, and I'm happily Med, thank you very much.

 

[Jovialis]

Very nice model. Catacomb. I did not think of that.
Alas, I am sure you are onto something, I am just not sure what.

Cause as you see the Albanian, and Kosovar Albanian model 70 Balkan IA + 20 Catacomb. Given catacomb is BA Ukraine/Moldova... I really do not think it means what you initially implied it means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacomb_culture

That Albanians need some richer in Steppe ancestry pop to pull them to where they plot from Balkan IA I agree. But that this pop is medieval Slavs I find ridiculous.

I think the cultural links in the wiki page, which I had also posted, gives some compelling evidence of Catacomb influence in Italy, the Balkans, and Greece. As well as Scythian, and Iranic people.

 

[Francis Drake]

You don't PRESUME something like that. Where is the archaeological evidence?

This isn't the neighborhood bar or pub where you can just shoot the breeze. We're supposed to back up the things we say here.

Plus, like I said, I get good matches from them, and I'm happily Med, thank you very much.

Scy197 was E-V13, and they were identified as part of the SE Europe cluster of the paper they were mentioned in... also they were found in Moldova. Are you denying that Dacians would have had higher steppe than BGR_IA, and that we couldve received our increase shift to UKR_Catacomb from these people rather than slavs?

Where do you think zero-whg, high steppe people without excess ancestry come from? The Bell-beakers? The only option is the thracian/dacian horizon. This will become more clear in the future.

 

[Jovialis]

You don't PRESUME something like that. Where is the archaeological evidence?

This isn't the neighborhood bar or pub where you can just shoot the breeze. We're supposed to back up the things we say here.

Plus, like I said, I get good matches from them, and I'm happily Med, thank you very much.

Thank you, I was going to comment to that point as well. PCA, and modeling are pretty much meaningless without archaeological context.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Even when speculating it's good to have some facts to hang the speculation on...

It doesn't matter which areas had Jewish communities and which didn't. They didn't want to admix with us unless it was a question of taking a woman as a wife, and she had to convert first.

Tracing "Jewishness" through the female line is something that developed after the Classical Era.

The only way that Jewish genes flowed into the Gentile population is IF it was a time of persecution and the Jews converted temporarily in order to save their lives. When all the Jews were expelled from Spain, some stayed behind under pretense of conversion. However, a lot of them were rooted out by the Inquisition, so what's probably left is some yDna. Heck, even with the Belmonte Jews, even when they'd lost all the liturgy and only had a vague memory of their Jewish roots, they still mostly intermarried only with each other. That was, to be fair, probably also to do with the fact that the surrounding Gentiles had long memories and were afraid to ally themselves with them through marriage. You can see them way out in no man's land on a PCA, close to Ashkenazim, and nowhere near Iberians.

Not sure if you have read this one. Its quite a good article.
Haplogroup diversity, ranging from 3800 to 2700 bp for various clades, spanning from Colombia to India.
Overrepresented haplogroup in the Kohanim priestly lines.

https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/

Hammer et al 2009 list 44 of 952 Jewish Y-chromosomes as positive for J2b-M12 (4.6%) of which 16 are assigned to Cohanim lineages out of a total of 215 (7.4%). [4]

The age of Z8429 diversification is estimated by YFull to 2900 ybp and members of this haplogroup are from Western Europe, Northern Europe, Tatar Russia as well the Jewish groups from Europe and India. The Tatar as well the Indian presence is interesting and rises the question to which culture this haplogroup belonged.
CTS3617 haplogroups as of 2015-10-07

The CTS3617? DYS455=8 group is since long researched by Sidney Sachs and has Cohanim tradition. CTS3617 is estimated by YFull with 3700 ybp and only very recently SNP results suggest this position under L283. So far the placement under CTS3617 is not known. The confirmed CTS3617 samples are diverse and from Balkans, Italy and Germany (see J2b-CTS3617: southern brother of Z638 detected in Balkans and Italy). Wim Penninx in his analysis of the known Y-DNA ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews [5]
estimates the TMRCA of the Jewish DYS455=8 group to 369-906 CE and currently lists no most likely origin. As a possible nearest outgroup match 324786 Bosnia-Herzegovina has a GD of ca. 20/67 and is grouped himself into CTS3617>Z38240>Z38241>PH1602>PH2350>PH3514, a group with NGS results from Bulgaria and Serbia.

So here and there... there was some mingling, whether in the Balkans, Italy or Germany.

 

[Angela]

Jovialis, I come out closer to Liguria than Emilia and Toscana, but close...

Target: Angela Distance: 1.5527% / 1.55273688
55.2	Roman_Republic_IA_(n=5)
36.9	Mycenaean_BA_(n=4)
6.3	Catacomb_Culture_BA_(n=5)
1.6	Minoan_BA_(n=11)

Target	Distance	Roman_Republic_IA_(n=5)	Minoan_BA_(n=11)	Mycenaean_BA_(n=4)	Balkans_IA	Catacomb_Culture_BA_(n=5)	Hungarian_BA_(n=2)
Angela	1.55273688	•	55.2	1.6	36.9	0.0	6.3	0.0
Average	1.55273688	•	55.2	1.6	36.9	0.0	6.3	0.0

Target: Angela Distance: 1.5527% / 1.55273688
55.2	Roman_Republic_IA_(n=5)
36.9	Mycenaean_BA_(n=4)
6.3	Catacomb_Culture_BA_(n=5)
1.6	Minoan_BA_(n=11)

Target: Angela Distance: 1.5527% / 1.55273688
55.2	Roman_Republic_IA_(n=5)
36.9	Mycenaean_BA_(n=4)
6.3	Catacomb_Culture_BA_(n=5)
1.6	Minoan_BA_(n=11)

Of course, there might be Catacomb in Mycenaean.

 

[Angela]

Not sure if you have read this one. Its quite a good article.
Haplogroup diversity, ranging from 3800 to 2700 bp for various clades, spanning from Colombia to India.
Overrepresented haplogroup in the Kohanim priestly lines.

https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/


So here and there... there was some mingling, whether in the Balkans, Italy or Germany.

It doesn't prove any such thing. Arabs have it too and a lot of groups in the Middle East.

 

[Archetype0ne]

I think the cultural links in the wiki page, which I had also posted, gives some compelling evidence of Catacomb influence in Italy, the Balkans, and Greece. As well as Scythian, and Iranic people.

Oh, I got no qualms with that. In fact to me it makes perfect sense. In fact if that Eneolithic L283 ever turns out to be true around Moldova. Its pretty strong evidence for your point.

I was referring to this point:

Albanians were Southern Italian-like until they received about 20% Slavic admixture it seems, to me.

Since Catacombs despite being from a region today inhabited by Slavs, predated Slavic ethnogenesis by as much as 3000 years.

I really think the paper using Mordovian has something to it that the public is not aware of. Reich would not let such mediocrity fly otherwise. We are missing pieces of the puzzle, and the researchers have those aces up their sleeves.

And... for some reason its connected to Finno-Urgics.

 

[Francis Drake]

Oh, I got no qualms with that. In fact to me it makes perfect sense. In fact if that Eneolithic L283 ever turns out to be true around Moldova. Its pretty strong evidence for your point.

I was referring to this point:



Since Catacombs despite being from a region today inhabited by Slavs, predated Slavic ethnogenesis by as much as 3000 years.

I really think the paper using Mordovian has something to it that the public is not aware of. Reich would not let such mediocrity fly otherwise. We are missing pieces of the puzzle, and the researchers have those aces up their sleeves.

And... for some reason its connected to Finno-Urgics.

As a piece of anecdotal evidence; I score 3% Finnish on DNA.LAND.

 

[Archetype0ne]

It doesn't prove any such thing. Arabs have it too and a lot of groups in the Middle East.

Who are these Arabs and groups in the Middle East. You got me really curious. I would think I know L283...

And it proves something. You need people to mingle, and these Judeans did mingle with some IE people for L283 to be that high 5%-10%.
You were adamant they would not marry "you/us", and I am not sure it is in line with the genetic facts.

Anyways have a good night it was a pleasure.

 

[Constantine]

Albanians were Southern Italian-like until they received about 20% Slavic admixture it seems, to me.

I think it more accurate to say that people in today's Albania were southern Italian-like until the Ghegs showed up.