Genetic study Ancient DNA of Roman Danubian Frontier and Slavic Migrations (Olalde 2021)

[kingjohn]

If he is E-V13 negative then he is likely Cardial/Impressed-Ware survivor.

We have solid evidence both archeological and genetic to link E-L618 with the Cardial/Impressed-Ware farmers, PPNB/Natufian farmers mixed within larger Anatolian/G2A influencing them in South-East Turkey.

very likely
it is cool how e-L618 was present that far and wide from dalmatia to southeast spain

 

[Riverman]

Because E-L618 might have been fairly widespread, they could have picked it up from Ukraine to Iberia, but more likely Germany-France-Iberia. So probably Cardial survivor in Iberia or from one of the Michelsberger/Michelsberger-Lengyel mixed groups of the Middle to Late Neolithic period.

 

[Hawk]

very likely
it is cool how e-L618 was present that far and wide from dalmatia to southeast spain

Yes, it was widespread(like from Western Greece as well, the starting point of Cardial farmers) but always low in numbers/minority, even on Natufian/PPNB probably. Or, i am thinking if it was actually the reverse, E-L618 was present among Late Mesolithic groups (like Castlenova) who adopted Cardial way of life. In order to proof/falsify we need at least one E-L618 among the originators of Cardial farmers, in South-East Turkey/Northern Levant border.

 

[MOESAN]

@Riverman
A little objection: what pushes you to consider almost all Y-E-V13 of thess times were come so precisely from the peri-Gava-Channelled ware groups nand their derivatives? Have you a list of Y-haplo's of these cultures and the surrounding ones of the time to affirm it without too uch doubt?

 

[Riverman]

@Riverman
A little objection: what pushes you to consider almost all Y-E-V13 of thess times were come so precisely from the peri-Gava-Channelled ware groups nand their derivatives? Have you a list of Y-haplo's of these cultures and the surrounding ones of the time to affirm it without too uch doubt?

Of course there is some doubt remaining, but we have a lot of pre-Channelled Ware and pre-Hallstatt samples from areas where it was abundant later, and it just wasn't there. The phylogeny and TMRCA of the modern distribution too points in the same direction: A massive expansion first around 1.300-1.000, a possible second with Hallstatt 900-500 BC. After that there is no significant overlap between the macro-regions. This creates a very clearly defined time window.
On the archaeological side we have two big phenomenons which cover the time, the geography and the later historical people involved. This is first South Eastern Urnfield/Channelled and secondly Basarabi-Hallstatt.
Also, we have genetic clusters corresponding to these people and E-V13 among them, like in the most likely Bosut-Basarabi derived Viminacium, in the Psenichevo Thracians, in the Geto-Scythians from Moldova. And presumably, soon, from Pannonia too, going by the samples in the Pannonian paper.

There is no reasonable alternative, because going by the modern distribution and phylogeny, and the lack of finds before, we need a massive expansion in the LBA-EIA. Psenichevo-Basarabi being proven already, and they are largely Channelled Ware derived.

 

[Hawk]

What i am not sure right now about E-L618 is did it arose in Late Mesolithic European context (and latter being assimilated into Cardial Ware Culture) or came via Natufians/PPNB.

There is some weird occurrences of microburin technique in Late Mesolithic South Europe.

 

[Riverman]

I don't think any haplogroup would have been that widespread from a small HG contribution, and it can't have been a big one. So single individuals can be from all kind of groups, but the ancestors of E-V13 are more likely to have spread ICW. But of course, like with other theories, its not beyond doubt without more data.

 

[kingjohn]

What i am not sure right now about E-L618 is did it arose in Late Mesolithic European context (and latter being assimilated into Cardial Ware Culture) or came via Natufians/PPNB.

There is some weird occurrences of microburin technique in Late Mesolithic South Europe.

I know the south east iberian
Remain was negetive for this branch
Still
Maybe a coast hoping from lebanon
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-BY6578/

 

[Hawk]

I don't think any haplogroup would have been that widespread from a small HG contribution, and it can't have been a big one. So single individuals can be from all kind of groups, but the ancestors of E-V13 are more likely to have spread ICW. But of course, like with other theories, its not beyond doubt without more data.

Somehow i prefer/lean more toward Cardial Farmer/Natufian/PPNB, but my 2nd bet would be a small Late Mesolithic group somewhere in Adriatic being picked up by Cardial Farmers.

 

[kingjohn]

E-m78 was found in ppnb remain
From jordan
The missing link is anatolia
If you will find e-L618 remain there
Than this could be the way to europe
They took

 

[Hawk]

E-m78 was found in ppnb remain
From jordan
The missing link is anatolia
If you will find e-L618 remain there
Than this could be the way to europe
They took

That would be awesome actually, PPNB were one of the most influental groups in human history. They changed human course of evolution.

 

[kingjohn]

That would be awesome actually, PPNB were one of the most influental groups in human history. They changed human course of evolution.

Agree
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/y-snp-calls-for-i1710/

 

[Hawk]

@Riverman
A little objection: what pushes you to consider almost all Y-E-V13 of thess times were come so precisely from the peri-Gava-Channelled ware groups nand their derivatives? Have you a list of Y-haplo's of these cultures and the surrounding ones of the time to affirm it without too uch doubt?

Just read the full text of the paper about this thread

Individuals from the first cluster fall on an area of the PCA delimited by the “ Balkan Iron Age cline” (Figure 1A). Consistent with this, we model the ancestry of this Balkans Iron Age Cluster as predominantly deriving from Iron Age (IA) groups from nearby areas in the Balkans, with 67% Aegean Bronze Age-related ancestry and the remainder Slovenia Iron Age-related ancestry (Figure 2; Supplementary section 12.1). A local origin is supported by a high frequency of Y-chromosome lineage E-V13, which has been hypothesized to have experienced a Bronze-to-Iron Age expansion in the Balkans and is found in its highest frequencies in the present-day Balkans 17. We interpret this cluster as the descendants of local Balkan Iron Age populations living at Viminacium, where they represented an abundant ancestry group during the Early Imperial and later periods (∼47% of sampled individuals from the 1-550 CE). Excavations of Iron Age Balkans prior to the Roman rule showed the dead where predominantly cremated

It's a solid conclusion if you compare their text with archeological records. It's a simple logic, if a certain lineage experience a boom during a certain timeline then there must be a reason why so. There must be archeological evidence for that.

The last example of a close relationship between the Žuto Brdo – Girla Mare and Gava finds is demonstrated in the necropolis of Pećine in the vicinity of Kostolac (Figure 1, 1).19 The excavator D. Jacanović observed that in all undisturbed contexts (or stratigraphic units) the ŽutoBrdo – Girla Mare, Hügelgräber and Gava typical ceramic forms were found together. This particularly applies to the four cremated burials with incrusted and burnished pottery found together in same context. A similar mix was documented in 13 pits, most probably dedicated to ritual at this site. These instances caused some archaeologists to classify the last phase of the Žuto Brdo– Girla Mare culture in the territory of the IronGates as belonging to the period of Ha A1, which according to chronology of M. Garašanin covers the transitional period between Late Bronze and Early Iron Ages.




in favour of its end in the late 12th century BC.6 Contrary to the situation with the Zuto Brdo - Girla Mare culture, the Gava culture complex, identified through the presence of the channelled and burnished pottery, is in the Serbian archaeology considered as the trigger of the transition from the Late Bronze to the Early Iron Age.


http://www.anubih.ba/godisnjak/god47/5-Aleksandar Kapuran.pdf

 

[Riverman]

Yes, because even if E-V13 was found in various groups earlier, it was never dominant. So we still need to explain how it did spread. Like just finding R1a is not enough, you need to know how it could replace other lineages. And that's usually happening with a tribal migration and general patrilinear replacement. The dates for E-V13 are too close and gaps in the record to big to make it appear dominant in the IA in the same regions it was just not present or a very small minority.
Like mentioned before, it really hurts that we don't have higher resolutions for the samples. Like we can't say whether they were dead ends, ancestral, minor lineages later or part of the main expansion.

 

[ihype02]

Slavic admixture in our face. Peloponnesians are indeed less "Slavicized" compared to others.

These are true Thessalians:

Target: GreeceThessaly10:GreeceThessaly Distance: 4.0491% / 0.04049108
58.2	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
41.8	Polish

---

Target: GreeceThessaly9:GreeceThessaly Distance: 2.7201% / 0.02720131
68.2	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
31.8	Polish

---

Target: GreeceThessaly8:GreeceThessaly Distance: 2.1137% / 0.02113734
62.6	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
37.4	Polish

---

Target: GreeceThessaly7:GreeceThessaly Distance: 3.0986% / 0.03098639
61.2	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
38.8	Polish

---

Target: GreeceThessaly6:GreeceThessaly Distance: 3.4842% / 0.03484200
53.4	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
46.6	Polish

---

Target: GreeceThessaly5:GreeceThessaly Distance: 3.9282% / 0.03928212
60.8	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
39.2	Polish

---

Target: GreeceThessaly4:GreeceThessaly Distance: 3.3062% / 0.03306234
61.8	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
38.2	Polish

---

Target: GreeceThessaly3:GreeceThessaly Distance: 3.5953% / 0.03595291
62.0	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
38.0	Polish

---

Several Roman period Balkan Iron age samples plotted south of BGR_IA. I would like to see more Iron age samples from Thracians, especially the southern ones.

 

[bigsnake49]

Slavic admixture in our face. Peloponnesians are indeed less "Slavicized" compared to others.

These are true Thessalians:

Target: GreeceThessaly10:GreeceThessaly Distance: 4.0491% / 0.04049108
58.2	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
41.8	Polish

---

Target: GreeceThessaly9:GreeceThessaly Distance: 2.7201% / 0.02720131
68.2	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
31.8	Polish

---

Target: GreeceThessaly8:GreeceThessaly Distance: 2.1137% / 0.02113734
62.6	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
37.4	Polish

---

Target: GreeceThessaly7:GreeceThessaly Distance: 3.0986% / 0.03098639
61.2	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
38.8	Polish

---

Target: GreeceThessaly6:GreeceThessaly Distance: 3.4842% / 0.03484200
53.4	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
46.6	Polish

---

Target: GreeceThessaly5:GreeceThessaly Distance: 3.9282% / 0.03928212
60.8	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
39.2	Polish

---

Target: GreeceThessaly4:GreeceThessaly Distance: 3.3062% / 0.03306234
61.8	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
38.2	Polish

---

Target: GreeceThessaly3:GreeceThessaly Distance: 3.5953% / 0.03595291
62.0	Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
38.0	Polish

---

Several Roman period Balkan Iron age samples plotted south of BGR_IA. I would like to see more Iron age samples from Thracians, especially the southern ones.

What era are these samples from? What study? What area of Thessaly?

 

[Archetype0ne]

ihype2 sometimes I wonder if you understand what these models even do on a basic level? Hint: it forces the model on the sample.
Sure there might be something to these 4+ distance two way models that you keep posting trying to prove Greeks are half Slavic... But the method you are using proves nothing. I nothing to say on the conclusion, just the method, beware that it makes you look like a fanatic/hater especially when repeated across time.

^Thats what happens when you let the calculator decide and not shove samples down its throat.
Now please stop looking like a hater. Sdi bre burr a je shqipe a sje. Dyshoj.

 

[ihype02]

ihype2 sometimes I wonder if you understand what these models even do on a basic level? Hint: it forces the model on the sample.
Sure there might be something to these 4+ distance two way models that you keep posting trying to prove Greeks are half Slavic... But the method you are using proves nothing. I nothing to say on the conclusion, just the method, beware that it makes you look like a fanatic/hater especially when repeated across time.

^Thats what happens when you let the calculator decide and not shove samples down its throat.
Now please stop looking like a hater. Sdi bre burr a je shqipe a sje. Dyshoj.

Yeah if there comes some super proof that Albanians are not related to Illyrians (and there is so FAR no definitive proof that we are related to Illyrians) at all I wont deny it. There is so much antipathy in having Slavic ancestry here.

"Burrë" shkruhet me "ë" në fund.

 

[Archetype0ne]

Yeah if there comes some super proof that Albanians are not related to Illyrians (and there is so FAR no definitive proof that we are related to Illyrians) at all I wont deny it. There is so much antipathy in having Slavic ancestry here.

"Burrë" shkruhet me "ë" në fund.

The more I read that comment the more confused I get. I am not sure if I missed your point when you are deflecting with some hypotheticals about Illyrians. But I am sure you missed my point that your models are trash tier. I have said nothing the first 20 times you posted the same Thesalians = Poles + Empuries model, but the 21st was the straw.

Again when I come to these deflecting impasses with people I just defer the verdict to future studies as I will now.

Dyshoja qe je Shqiptar se ti bie per punime propagand qe as jugosllavet dhe mordovet neper fora si han. Apo e hanë?

• 
  
  iç apo iq?

 

[ihype02]

The more I read that comment the more confused I get. I am not sure if I missed your point when you are deflecting with some hypotheticals about Illyrians. But I am sure you missed my point that your models are trash tier. I have said nothing the first 20 times you posted the same Thesalians = Poles + Empuries model, but the 21st was the straw.

Again when I come to these deflecting impasses with people I just defer the verdict to future studies as I will now.

Dyshoja qe je Shqiptar se ti bie per punime propagand qe as jugosllavet dhe mordovet neper fora si han. Apo e hanë?

• 
  
  iç apo iq?

Hey sent me a message.